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zen buddy
not a buddhist
Registered: 01/22/09
Posts: 704
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Re: Does love exist? [Re: Icelander]
#10646505 - 07/09/09 09:49 AM (14 years, 8 months ago) |
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I thought I was merely expressing myself.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Does love exist? [Re: zen buddy]
#10646531 - 07/09/09 10:01 AM (14 years, 8 months ago) |
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same same IMO
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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zen buddy
not a buddhist
Registered: 01/22/09
Posts: 704
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Re: Does love exist? [Re: Icelander]
#10646562 - 07/09/09 10:08 AM (14 years, 8 months ago) |
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I wonder why there are two different words?
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Does love exist? [Re: zen buddy]
#10649175 - 07/09/09 07:09 PM (14 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
zen buddy said: I wonder why there are two different words?
Because they have different meanings, but that doesn't stop people from using them for the same thing.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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laserpig
Weedmaster_P
Registered: 04/28/09
Posts: 7,468
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Re: Does love exist? [Re: Icelander]
#10649259 - 07/09/09 07:23 PM (14 years, 8 months ago) |
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Does unconditional love imply permanent love? Can love experienced in a finite time-span nonetheless be pure? If you count time as a condition then nothing is unconditional, but if you're willing to accept that for some span of time a person can love regardless of circumstance (potentially for the entire duration of their life), then yes, I'd say unconditional love is real.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Does love exist? [Re: laserpig]
#10649263 - 07/09/09 07:24 PM (14 years, 8 months ago) |
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Veritas agrees.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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zen buddy
not a buddhist
Registered: 01/22/09
Posts: 704
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Re: Does love exist? [Re: Icelander]
#10649491 - 07/09/09 08:04 PM (14 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
zen buddy said: I wonder why there are two different words?
Because they have different meanings, but that doesn't stop people from using them for the same thing.
I guess not.
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Lakefingers
Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
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Re: Does love exist? [Re: zen buddy]
#10651106 - 07/10/09 01:29 AM (14 years, 8 months ago) |
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Today we're told that we must learn to unconditionally love ourselves before we can love others. Additionally, the stepping stone after learning to love yourself is, going to groups where you as a narcissist express your love for yourself with a larger community (such as support groups, sex chats), yet have no loving contact with others present.
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BlueCoyote
Beyond
Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
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Unconditional love is meaningless, because you can not act upon it. Even if it exists, it has no meaning for us. It's like smiling when someone stabs a dagger between your ribs. Maybe you will say "Thank you" ? Or maybe someone wants to fillet oneself before the shark will eat one ? It simply doesn't make any sense at all. Blind are those who think they act on it as a cause.
SS:"The only love that is unconditional is the kind that recognizes all beings as manifestations of a single divine nature. " But there again is the next condition.
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cellardoor
rider on the storm
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Re: Does love exist? [Re: Icelander]
#10653713 - 07/10/09 03:52 PM (14 years, 8 months ago) |
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read "The Fall," by Albert Camus.
-------------------- "If the doors of perception were cleansed everything would appear to man as it is, infinite."~William Blake
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heirofgrace
Titus 2:11-14; 3:3-7
Registered: 08/13/08
Posts: 117
Loc: Portland, OR
Last seen: 10 years, 10 months
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Re: Does love exist? [Re: Icelander]
#10653849 - 07/10/09 04:18 PM (14 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: I'm beginning (sadly) to have my doubts. As I search my motivations I find myself to be always serving myself even being altruistic. There's always a feel good payoff even in going out of my way for others.
Plus my belief that the definition of love implies unconditionality makes it virtually impossible to experience except as an ideal or benchmark to aspire to.
Prove me wrong.
I don't know how this will be taken or understood. I don't mean to stir up strife. Just contributing to the discussion with my experience.
The apostle John (who was also called "the disciple whom Jesus loved") said some of the most strongest statements about love anyone has ever uttered.
First, he was the one who said, "God is love." He also said, "love is from God." Then he said, "if anyone does not have God, he cannot love." Finally, he said, "we love Him because He first loved us."
In other words, unconditional love (which is the word AGAPE in the Greek culture of that day), John was saying, is 1) only of God, 2) only from God, and 3) only in Christians.
On another note, I remember Jesus saying, "There's no greater love than that one lay his life down for his friends."
And if anyone is familiar with the garden of Gethsemane scene, when Judas led the Roman soldiers to arrest Jesus, Jesus said this to them when they approached, "Whom do you seek?" They answered, "Jesus of Nazareth." Then He said, "I am He, let the others go." I just think wow.. Jesus, on the night He was betrayed and arrested, was concerned with protecting His disciples. And the commentator says, "This Jesus said, to fulfill the prophecy, "'I have lost none of them which You gave me,' except the Son of Perdition, as it was prophesied."
I think love exists.
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C.M. Mann
subconscious explorer
Registered: 05/01/08
Posts: 899
Loc: Florida
Last seen: 12 years, 11 months
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Re: Does love exist? [Re: Icelander]
#10653987 - 07/10/09 04:48 PM (14 years, 8 months ago) |
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-----------------------------------------------------Does love exist? For me it does! Unconditional love is just a catchy metaphor. Of course there are conditions to love. Once you get past the initial chemical reactions, love is a lot of hard work. When love happens your minds combine, and harmony depends on many conditional factors. The ability to work out these conditions with equal respect and with out prejudice is the key. (Just a thought)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
heirofgrace said:
Quote:
Icelander said: I'm beginning (sadly) to have my doubts. As I search my motivations I find myself to be always serving myself even being altruistic. There's always a feel good payoff even in going out of my way for others.
Plus my belief that the definition of love implies unconditionality makes it virtually impossible to experience except as an ideal or benchmark to aspire to.
Prove me wrong.
I don't know how this will be taken or understood. I don't mean to stir up strife. Just contributing to the discussion with my experience.
The apostle John (who was also called "the disciple whom Jesus loved") said some of the most strongest statements about love anyone has ever uttered.
First, he was the one who said, "God is love." He also said, "love is from God." Then he said, "if anyone does not have God, he cannot love." Finally, he said, "we love Him because He first loved us."
In other words, unconditional love (which is the word AGAPE in the Greek culture of that day), John was saying, is 1) only of God, 2) only from God, and 3) only in Christians.
On another note, I remember Jesus saying, "There's no greater love than that one lay his life down for his friends."
And if anyone is familiar with the garden of Gethsemane scene, when Judas led the Roman soldiers to arrest Jesus, Jesus said this to them when they approached, "Whom do you seek?" They answered, "Jesus of Nazareth." Then He said, "I am He, let the others go." I just think wow.. Jesus, on the night He was betrayed and arrested, was concerned with protecting His disciples. And the commentator says, "This Jesus said, to fulfill the prophecy, "'I have lost none of them which You gave me,' except the Son of Perdition, as it was prophesied."
I think love exists.
Who cares what john said. There is no god, don't you know that?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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bumtildeath
vonderful
Registered: 10/09/05
Posts: 374
Loc: NC
Last seen: 13 years, 8 months
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love exists, but not as an emotion there is no emotion labeled "love"
love as a term, is a verb it is something you do, not something you feel if you "love" somebody, than you are giving that person everything you can give them, without expecting anything in return
for the love of two ppl to be existent, both ppl have to be doing such
-------------------- im not an addict just an abuser
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heirofgrace
Titus 2:11-14; 3:3-7
Registered: 08/13/08
Posts: 117
Loc: Portland, OR
Last seen: 10 years, 10 months
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Re: Does love exist? [Re: Icelander]
#10654795 - 07/10/09 08:34 PM (14 years, 8 months ago) |
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You think so huh?
Edited by heirofgrace (07/10/09 08:36 PM)
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WhiskeyClone
Not here
Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 16,509
Loc: Longitudinal Center of Canada ...
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Re: Does love exist? [Re: Icelander]
#10654879 - 07/10/09 08:55 PM (14 years, 8 months ago) |
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Laserpig already hit on what I was going to say.
Sure unconditional love exists, but permanence doesn't exist. We've all experienced unconditional love, but that doesn't mean there is no possible condition out there somewhere that could be a dealbreaker if it were to appear in that moment. What I mean is you don't need to know and account for all possible conditions to experience unconditional love in a given moment. Maybe there's a better word than 'unconditional' to describe love.
"Unconditional" means "could not possibly have conditions," and of course we can't know what potential conditions could arise with such a limited perspective of the universe. It's one of those extreme words that always causes problems, like 'never' or 'always'.
-------------------- Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man. For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire. Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it. ~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"
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zen buddy
not a buddhist
Registered: 01/22/09
Posts: 704
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Re: Does love exist? [Re: laserpig]
#10655067 - 07/10/09 09:37 PM (14 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
laserpig said: Does unconditional love imply permanent love? Can love experienced in a finite time-span nonetheless be pure? If you count time as a condition then nothing is unconditional, but if you're willing to accept that for some span of time a person can love regardless of circumstance (potentially for the entire duration of their life), then yes, I'd say unconditional love is real.
I believe that true love is ever lasting but I also believe that we cannot experience love if we have guilt, so it would be possible to fall out of love. Someone who is in love might fail in resisting temptation and do something that causes them to feel guilty. This person would be unable to experience love until they could somehow let go of their guilt. I found the best way to release my guilt was to openly admit and discuss whatever I did with anyone who was affected by my immoral behavior.
I love people who I do not believe are good friends or good romantic partners. I have left women that I was romantically involved with even though I was still in love with them and I still love them to this day.
I love my mother with all my heart even though I truly believe that she is one of the most unintelligent, selfish, cold hearted, rotten bitches on the face of earth.
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C.M. Mann
subconscious explorer
Registered: 05/01/08
Posts: 899
Loc: Florida
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Re: Does love exist? [Re: zen buddy]
#10655921 - 07/11/09 01:16 AM (14 years, 8 months ago) |
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-----------------------------------------------------I think if two people fall in love, there is no temptation to stray. Once in Love, always in Love. Till Death and beyond.
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5HTSynaptrip
Dopamine Enthusiast
Registered: 09/14/08
Posts: 4,360
Loc: USA
Last seen: 5 years, 11 months
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Re: Does love exist? [Re: Icelander]
#10656904 - 07/11/09 08:27 AM (14 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: I'm beginning (sadly) to have my doubts. As I search my motivations I find myself to be always serving myself even being altruistic. There's always a feel good payoff even in going out of my way for others.
Plus my belief that the definition of love implies unconditionality makes it virtually impossible to experience except as an ideal or benchmark to aspire to.
Prove me wrong.
To me love is a form of greed(or want) and control over a person. The difference is that both parties (in reciprocated love) willingly submit to it. It isn't easy and it takes compromise and hard work but truly it's something you want and that something is a person.
-------------------- Science is a way of thinking much more than it is a body of knowledge. - My hero, who will be forever remembered, Carl Sagan.
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zen buddy
not a buddhist
Registered: 01/22/09
Posts: 704
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Re: Does love exist? [Re: C.M. Mann]
#10657015 - 07/11/09 09:06 AM (14 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
C.M. Mann said: -----------------------------------------------------I think if two people fall in love, there is no temptation to stray. Once in Love, always in Love. Till Death and beyond.
I don't think you fully understand my point. I wasn't talking about a temptation to stray. For example, two people are in love for many years and one of them sees an opportunity to get away with taking a large sum of money from their employer so they take it. The guilt from this immoral act will not allow the individual to experience the love they once had. I'm sure there would still be some sort of connection that we could call love but it will not be as pure as it was before, it will be tainted and unfulfilling.
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