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 Icelander
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 Observations on dog/human relations. 
#10641414 - 07/08/09 11:39 AM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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I read that only three percent of dogs are really trained to any extent. I work with dogs and dog rehab and see the extent of this. I have almost never met a fucked up dog that wasn't owned by a much more fucked up human personality. IMO very few humans are capable of training dogs or children or acting in any responsible manner around either or in the world at large. I'm disgusted and apalled way too often by the people who come in to the Animal Shelter to adopt a dog. I can guess the hell that dog will be in for through no fault of it's own. The ignorance of the average jane and joe on the street is telling. Most of humanity lives on in ignorance and is saved by technology and the good sense of certain rare individuals.
Other than that I have nothing but respect for most people.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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sterbeklang
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Re: Observations on dog/human relations. [Re: Icelander]
#10641437 - 07/08/09 11:45 AM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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The thing I notice about dogs is how accepting, loving and forgiving they can be. Unless they've been mercilessly tortured mentally or physically, they will always be there bouncing around, wagging their tail, happy to see you.
People tend to punish dogs in the way they would punish a human and dogs don't remember why they're being punished. Don't you have to punish them immediately after the behavior so they know what it's about? You can't say, "This swat with the newspaper is for shitting in the closet eight hours ago." They'll have no idea. On the other hand, you can walk up to someone and say, "This punch in the face is for stealing my money two weeks ago." A person will understand that.
Too often, humans try to apply their consciousness to the canine and the canine just doesn't work that way. And some people just have no wish to be responsible for the animal from the beginning, which makes you wonder why they adopted it in the first place.
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Icelander
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Re: Observations on dog/human relations. [Re: sterbeklang]
#10641458 - 07/08/09 11:51 AM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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Right, and something else. Punishment is ineffective usually damaging in dog training. Correction and positive reinforcement will do the job. Actually a correction within 1 1/2 seconds of the event is about all that will really get a dogs attention on any mistakes or willful disobedience.
From lots of experience over many years and trying several styles of dog training I've concluded that the bonding phase is the, by far, most important aspect of ending up with a responsible, well adjusted dog companion. This is the area that is often lacking in dog training.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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 Kickle
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Re: Observations on dog/human relations. [Re: Icelander]
#10641493 - 07/08/09 11:56 AM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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Seems to me that training needn't be necessary if the individual reacts appropriately to a dog's psychology. However, I suppose that is just fancy phrasing for 'training'.
I think sterbeklang is on the right track when he says it is about perspective taking. Assuming that everything, and everyone, must think as we ourselves do.
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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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sterbeklang
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Re: Observations on dog/human relations. [Re: Icelander]
#10641503 - 07/08/09 11:57 AM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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I remember reading in a dog training manual once that the dog has to know that "all good things come from you." And the way to get them to behave is not to punish, but to revoke the good things unless they display the intended behavior. Is that correct?
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Fraggin
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Re: Observations on dog/human relations. [Re: sterbeklang]
#10641519 - 07/08/09 12:00 PM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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That's how one can say truly "There are no bad dogs"
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Icelander
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Re: Observations on dog/human relations. [Re: sterbeklang]
#10641529 - 07/08/09 12:01 PM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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Right? And here's another one. "Nothing comes for free." Especially in the training phase everything my dog want's or get from me comes with a price. If my dog wants a piece of my crunchy carrot he has to do a sit stay for 30 seconds. It works wonders over a short time.
Finally I'll say that a dog is not trained unless they are completely reliable off leash.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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sterbeklang
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Re: Observations on dog/human relations. [Re: Icelander]
#10641559 - 07/08/09 12:07 PM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Finally I'll say that a dog is not trained unless they are completely reliable off leash.
I've never had dogs that were horribly misbehaved, but at the same time I've never had a dog that could go off-leash. They just lose their freakin' minds and you go running through the neighborhood calling their name like an idiot.
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Icelander
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Re: Observations on dog/human relations. [Re: Kickle]
#10641571 - 07/08/09 12:08 PM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said:
Seems to me that training needn't be necessary if the individual reacts appropriately to a dog's psychology. However, I suppose that is just fancy phrasing for 'training'.
I think sterbeklang is on the right track when he says it is about perspective taking. Assuming that everything, and everyone, must think as we ourselves do.
You're on track and one must remember that what a dog wants and what a person wants are rarely the same thing. You have to be able to communicate your desires to you dogs in language he or she can understand.
Working with dogs is really fun for one main reason. Dogs honor human language more then humans do and so can teach us much about honor.
Here's an example. You got this dog that runs away from you. You yell twenty times for the dog to come back but he only does when he is ready. He knows you don't mean what you say so he can ignore you. He demands you honor your word before he will comply. So if your dog runs off and you give the recall command and he doesn't come, never repeat the command. Go get the dog and bring him back and then praise him just as if he came back on command.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Kickle
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Re: Observations on dog/human relations. [Re: Icelander]
#10641579 - 07/08/09 12:11 PM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Here's an example. You got this dog that runs away from you. You yell twenty times for the dog to come back but he only does when he is ready. He knows you don't mean what you say so he can ignore you. He demands you honor your word before he will comply. So if your dog runs off and you give the recall command and he doesn't come, never repeat the command. Go get the dog and bring him back and then praise him just as if he came back on command.
My mother could have learned that lesson with us children.
I tried explaining it to her, but she just didn't buy it, I guess.
Children are receptive to a lot of these same reinforcements.
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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Icelander
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Re: Observations on dog/human relations. [Re: Kickle]
#10641591 - 07/08/09 12:13 PM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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 Actually dogs and humans are quite similar emotionally.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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sterbeklang
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Re: Observations on dog/human relations. [Re: Kickle]
#10641614 - 07/08/09 12:18 PM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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I find dogs understandable to some extent. And they are rather personable creatures. But at some point, I'd like to hear from someone who understands cats. I don't get them at all. I like them, but I don't get them. My mom's cat seems especially neurotic. She'll hide under the bed most of the day and comes out at night. Except when she comes out to meow for food... and she'll only do that if my mom's around.
When I have to babysit her, she'll finally come out from under the bed and meow at me. And I still have to romance her to get her to eat. I sit down on the floor, open the can of food, let her rub against me for awhile, put some food in the bowl, wait patiently while she eats, etc. One time it even seemed like she'd forgotten how to eat. So I scoured the internet looking for information and finally found that if I rubbed some tuna on her teeth, her appetite would strike up again. And that's only possible if you can coax her to come anywhere near you.
She totally owns my mom, who will practically put out a buffet for her every morning, never knowing if she'll want the creamy tuna or the turkey in gravy. Sometimes, I think she just likes to meow so she can feel wanted. I have to wonder what her previous owners were like. They just dumped her at a vet clinic in the middle of the night and left her there. So it's hard to say what she's been through in the past.
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Icelander
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Re: Observations on dog/human relations. [Re: sterbeklang]
#10641635 - 07/08/09 12:21 PM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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Cats make good play toys for dogs!
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Kickle
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Re: Observations on dog/human relations. [Re: Icelander]
#10641650 - 07/08/09 12:25 PM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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Cats... the trippiest of all critters, IMO
I've learned more about my girlfriend through her cat, than through my girlfriend herself.
IMO, cats react to desires of the owner.
So for your mom, I would argue, she desires pampering. Perhaps the safety of hiding under the bed, and not having to deal with the issues out in the world.
*This is just my own interpretation, from a limited amount of information.
edit: Alternative explanation.
Cats are nocturnal. It makes sense for the cat to desire a dark place during the day, and to prowl during the night.
edit 2: haha, what the heck happened to that post...
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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
Edited by Kickle (07/08/09 12:30 PM)
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sterbeklang
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Re: Observations on dog/human relations. [Re: Icelander]
#10641659 - 07/08/09 12:27 PM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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I think it's cool when cats and dogs get along, but it seems they have to be raised together. Perhaps that is another lesson for us humans as well. 
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sterbeklang
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Re: Observations on dog/human relations. [Re: Kickle]
#10641684 - 07/08/09 12:33 PM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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When I found her at the SPCA, they told me, "People will come here and pick out a dog, but it is the cats who pick their owners." In fact, the only reason I picked her is because she followed me around the whole place while I looked at other cats. I didn't even notice her until my wife pointed out I was being followed. They said, "In the three months she's been here, she's only done that with a few people. Usually she doesn't like anyone." She was a scrawny little thing with no tail. Now she is well fed, slightly heavier... but still tail-free of course.
So we took her home for ourselves, then took her over to meet my mother. I think it was love at first sight, because you see where she ended up living. My mom had just retired and my dad was still working. And now that my mom has a feline to baby, she's thankfully stopped over-mothering me. So thank you, fuzzy little Trixie, for providing my mom with a new "child" and allowing me some freedom in my 30s. LOL.
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Kickle
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Re: Observations on dog/human relations. [Re: sterbeklang]
#10641718 - 07/08/09 12:39 PM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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Nice story
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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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C.M. Mann
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Re: Observations on dog/human relations. [Re: sterbeklang]
#10642082 - 07/08/09 02:08 PM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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I love animals! People, I'm not convinced.
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Observations on dog/human relations. [Re: Icelander]
#10642177 - 07/08/09 02:26 PM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Most of humanity lives on in ignorance and is saved by technology and the good sense of certain rare individuals.
Thanks for noticing. 
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Icelander
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Re: Observations on dog/human relations. [Re: C.M. Mann]
#10642308 - 07/08/09 02:53 PM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
C.M. Mann said:
I love animals! People, I'm not convinced.
I heer dat.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Observations on dog/human relations. [Re: Icelander]
#10642351 - 07/08/09 03:00 PM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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You love dogs because they (generally) do what you tell them, lick you all over and worship your presence. Is that really love? 
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Icelander
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Are you asking if I love them or they love me?
My honest answer to both would be no. Love is a relative term that I use in the common lingo when talking to the little guy on the street. I'm no longer convinced that love has concrete meaning in day to day experience. I like my dogs because of what they bring to my life and it's the same I expect for them. For them it's food and pack membership (safety)
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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TacticalBongRip
Curious Observer
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Posts: 527
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Re: Observations on dog/human relations. [Re: Icelander]
#10642865 - 07/08/09 04:23 PM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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This topic has been on my mind recently quite a bit as I've started watching 'The Dog Whisperer' on the National Geographic channel. I don't own a dog and yet I enjoy this show more than any I can remember.
One amazing thing he points out is how dogs often reflect the personality flaws of the owners. Next, he often drives home the point of living in the moment instead of the past or future.
I have almost been brought to tears a couple times because of the work Cesar Millan does. I view him as a modern day zen-shaman of sorts because his method of rehabilitating dogs is often to guide/heal the owners thereby indirectly improving the life situation for the dog.
I never used to consider rescuing dogs or volunteering at an animal shelter but this show has me considering otherwise. I've been meaning to discuss the show and your post gave me the opportunity.
I would say most humans are capable of training dogs, but the chances of them doing so is quite low because of 'concrete' type thinking and lack of a good coach. The most common mistake I noticed from watching Cesar Millan is that people think their dogs personalities are set in stone when really unwanted behaviors can be redirected in a short period of time and with minimal effort.
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Icelander
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Very good post. You might really like doing some work with canines. I highly recommend it to you. It's been one of the highlights of living on this planet for me. It can be hard however to find quality Shelters to volunteer at. 
I work at one of the best in the PNW and it's mostly fun, exciting and often heart wrenching.
The experience of training a dog is an amazing bonding experience. If you ever want some cool tips on how to evaluate a shelter dog or any dog PM me. Getting the right dog for your temperament is half the battle.
The mistake that 99% of dog owners I see making is the one of repeating commands until the dog thinks you're just a little wacko.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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TacticalBongRip
Curious Observer
Registered: 08/20/05
Posts: 527
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Re: Observations on dog/human relations. [Re: Icelander]
#10642987 - 07/08/09 04:48 PM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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Thanks. I can see what you mean by the repeating of commands. My impression is that it's not what you say but how you say it, and (more insight from watching the show) I would bet the more someone repeats a command the more the dog senses tension/anger/frustration from the human - a vibrational energy quite different from the type that dogs follow naturally - calm and assertive (read: living in the moment without carrying emotional baggage around).
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Icelander
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It's not just what you mean but what you do.
Repeating a command nullifies it's intent. Commands from an alpha male are only ignored at the beta's peril.
However you are right about the calm assertiveness of a command. It is expected by the nature of the commander to be obeyed and if it is not there is no anger from the alpha, only a response based on intent. It's all based in survival, not petty annoyance.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Observations on dog/human relations. [Re: Icelander]
#10643564 - 07/08/09 07:01 PM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Repeating a command nullifies it's intent. Commands from an alpha male are only ignored at the beta's peril.
You best remember that when we meet in Arid Zone A!
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learningtofly
Ancient Aliens
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Re: Observations on dog/human relations. [Re: Icelander]
#10643653 - 07/08/09 07:21 PM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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its impossible to teach animals to dance.
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daytripper23
?
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Re: Observations on dog/human relations. [Re: Icelander]
#10643723 - 07/08/09 07:33 PM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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Its good to see a philosophy built on this relationship. Its a subject with experts, but there is no final authority but absurdity on either humans or animals in particular. We laugh at these human authorities, because its only a matter of tracing the roots. So we seem to laugh in general by releasing the tension between these apparent terms, and perhaps live tragically when they are treated as distinct.
Human (as to animals)
Animals (as to humans)
What qualifier (literally) do we have for "Animal", other than its "human" observer? Its strange and astounding that westerners have only just begun to grasp this since Darwin - and still, apparently in such a superficial, human manner.
Anyways, good thread, and I appreciate the tips in particular.
Any thoughts on bone training?
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Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
The frumious Bandersnatch!
Edited by daytripper23 (07/08/09 09:31 PM)
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Lion
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Re: Observations on dog/human relations. [Re: daytripper23]
#10644496 - 07/08/09 09:47 PM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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Hey Ice. I am a dog lover and former pet-sitter, and I agree with all of what you've said here. Dogs absolutely have similar emotional lives to humans. I for one am wholly incapable of training a dog, and went through an often terrible experience trying to help raise my housemate's German Shepherd puppy. I love that dog; she should not have had to live with a bunch of college guys who did not have a clue how to train her or give her enough attention.
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“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
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Lakefingers
Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
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Re: Observations on dog/human relations. *DELETED* [Re: Icelander]
#10645669 - 07/09/09 02:40 AM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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Post deleted by Lakefingers
Reason for deletion: "
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Bard
Ultrahuman
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Re: Observations on dog/human relations. [Re: Lakefingers]
#10645736 - 07/09/09 03:12 AM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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I more or less have some kind of fear from dogs. Maybe it's just their owners?
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So dreaming let's you know reality exists.
I don't belive. I fear.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: Observations on dog/human relations. [Re: learningtofly]
#10646441 - 07/09/09 09:31 AM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
learningtofly said:
its impossible to teach animals to dance.
Not true
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Observations on dog/human relations. [Re: daytripper23]
#10646449 - 07/09/09 09:32 AM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
daytripper23 said:
Its good to see a philosophy built on this relationship. Its a subject with experts, but there is no final authority but absurdity on either humans or animals in particular. We laugh at these human authorities, because its only a matter of tracing the roots. So we seem to laugh in general by releasing the tension between these apparent terms, and perhaps live tragically when they are treated as distinct.
Human (as to animals)
Animals (as to humans)
What qualifier (literally) do we have for "Animal", other than its "human" observer? Its strange and astounding that westerners have only just begun to grasp this since Darwin - and still, apparently in such a superficial, human manner.
Anyways, good thread, and I appreciate the tips in particular.
Any thoughts on bone training?
What's bone training?
--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Observations on dog/human relations. [Re: Lakefingers]
#10646451 - 07/09/09 09:33 AM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Lakefingers said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
...I've concluded that the bonding phase is the, by far, most important aspect of ending up with a responsible, well adjusted dog companion. This is the area that is often lacking in dog training.
As with humans. Thus: we live in a deeply fucked up society. Values, customs and discipline aren't enough to save us.
word
When I get a new dog, especially one from a shelter that has had experience with human inconsistency, violence or neglect I usually work on bonding for up to two or three months (depending on the dogs emotional state) before I begin formal training. If I build this level of trust and respect the dog practically trains itself.
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Chronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
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Re: Observations on dog/human relations. [Re: Icelander]
#10646956 - 07/09/09 11:39 AM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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some dogs eyes are so beautiful
you can see such humility in the eyes of certain dogs
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daytripper23
?
Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc:
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Re: Observations on dog/human relations. [Re: Icelander]
#10647087 - 07/09/09 12:05 PM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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I found myself constantly "trailing the dogs" with ordinary treats, if you know what I mean. Its like you said, they seem to function in intervals of attention, and you want to spark that, but at the same time a reactionary response on your part won't establish that when you are behind them. So when a dog bolts after an animal for instance, attempting to call them off by one mean or another can often seem to them like propelling them forward (especially like you said, if you keep calling). But neither do you want to reward them after the fact, where they have only returned from their disobedient actions.
This is what I mean by trailing the dog - if it is an disobedient dog, how can you curb or even meet these apparently "negative" behaviors through positive reinforcement? If we were to bluntly classify dog behavior as between positive reinforcement, and negative behavior, the two would never meet, and it would seem that human intervention always seems to follow and observe their actions.
"Bone training" is a sort of experimental approach I recently caught on to that establishes attention in a larger window. By that, their attention span is in a sense, "drawn out" to the point of establishing a clear sense of territoriality. Manifesting the attention span, if you will. You could call it territoriality training, as a "positivist" approach, whereby to "stay" is a positive matrix of territory, posited by the bone. These are just irresistible ways for me to conceptualize the method, but Ill just tell you how it actually seems to work:
Obviously we can't do this on the run, so this is what I am usually doing with them on the home-front (where I have the most problems with them actually) while I am reading or meditating. When they are chewing their rawhide bones, they seem to be grounded, if only to protect their bones. So when something exciting happens, I usually just observe as they start to go, and watch as they remember their bones and spring back like elastic.
In this method, it is much easier to establish that attention: most of the time, its just a reminder to "stay", or in other words, "remember your bone because your sister will indefinitely take it if you leave.
At this point, it is entirely their bones and the situation remains so until I take them back, so I would not call this positive reinforcement as directed from me - besides the initial gift that is. Once it is given, they take most if not all responsibility, and I seem to simply serve as a reminder from that point on. Maybe another word would be "attention training".
So not positive reinforcement, but a positive matrix of territory, as I previously said. This does not seem to actually curb aggressive energy. I usually observe as they direct the same energy inward between the two of them, which the least I can say, is more succinct pack behavior than when I lose control. For instance, if both of them stay when something exciting happens, they seem to compensate by being very opportunistic with each others' bones. There is a lot of general growling, both at the exciting object and at each other, and often they just break into fights among themselves that I have to break up.
This inward energy is nothing new for them, it seems to be how they seem to spur each other forward, as I have observed in the field, and is the same inner pack energy that my voice is often lost among (just sounding like another bark I suppose). But other than those frenzied cases, they actually maintain themselves pretty well, and are very attentive in general. So it seems to me that bones are are blunt means to "contain" that energy, and more importantly hold their attention, even if I can't further direct that attention much besides towards staying.
Staying is probably the most important though right? - and actually, as it occurs to me, "stay" and "come" are the only commands I feel comfortable in imposing - Gravity training? OK I am done with the creative names.
But I think that was important, why should anyone have any other commands besides stay and come here? I'm curious - what do you think of this notion in particular?
Anyhow, this is just my way of describing/understanding this particular method. I would consider it an experimental, or secondary approach, and with me too, positive reinforcement with carrots or biscuits is where the basic training is at. I only get bones for them about once a month, and they typically last about a week.
Well, I am curious what you think in general. Criticisms? Or have you had any similar insights?
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Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
The frumious Bandersnatch!
Edited by daytripper23 (07/09/09 02:22 PM)
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Observations on dog/human relations. [Re: Icelander]
#10647433 - 07/09/09 01:21 PM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
learningtofly said:
its impossible to teach animals to dance.
Not true
It is impossible to teach animals to moonwalk.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Observations on dog/human relations. [Re: Chronic7]
#10649273 - 07/09/09 07:26 PM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Chronic777 said:
some dogs eyes are so beautiful
you can see such humility in the eyes of certain dogs
That sounds like projection to me. Dogs like people are self serving. They certainly can be beautiful (and soft) however.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
learningtofly said:
its impossible to teach animals to dance.
Not true
It is impossible to teach animals to moonwalk.
Michael Jackson proves you wrong as humans are animals.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Observations on dog/human relations. [Re: daytripper23]
#10649319 - 07/09/09 07:36 PM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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If a dog I'm training bolts and will not respond to a recall I patiently go and get the dog, walk him back to where I originally called him from and then praise him as if he had originally come to me when called. But I rarely have to do this as I don't let an untrained dog have much opportunity to run from me. I keep them on leash (short or long) until reliably trained. Once a strong bond is established the animal realizes through experience that doing what you want brings more reward then doing what he used to want. To do this your dog needs to find his relationship with you and your lifestyle very interesting and satisfying. By doing this you can mostly train your dog with the reward system with a minimum of corrections and no punishments.
--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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daytripper23
?
Registered: 06/22/05
Posts: 3,595
Loc:
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Re: Observations on dog/human relations. [Re: Icelander]
#10649803 - 07/09/09 08:59 PM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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Strange, but leashes never really occurred to me until now - This may sound silly, but we are country bumpkins and have always gotten by without them, even though there has admittedly been a bit of a gray area in terms of obedience.
Now that you mention it though, I can see that this was exactly the difference I have been trying to split with bones without even realizing it.
Ill have to sacrifice my philosophical pride in the mean time, but Ill give it a try.
--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
The frumious Bandersnatch!
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learningtofly
Ancient Aliens
Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 15,105
Loc: Out of this world
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
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Re: Observations on dog/human relations. [Re: Icelander]
#10649984 - 07/09/09 09:39 PM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
learningtofly said:
its impossible to teach animals to dance.
Not true
o rly? i'm quite certain animals cannot dance.. Unless PBS/NOVA lied to me?
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TacticalBongRip
Curious Observer
Registered: 08/20/05
Posts: 527
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Re: Observations on dog/human relations. [Re: learningtofly]
#10650351 - 07/09/09 10:50 PM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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Lakefingers
Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
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Re: Observations on dog/human relations. *DELETED* [Re: Bard]
#10651110 - 07/10/09 01:31 AM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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Post deleted by Lakefingers
Reason for deletion: "
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sterbeklang
w/e
Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 824
Loc: Filthy Rock
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Re: Observations on dog/human relations. [Re: Lakefingers]
#10651127 - 07/10/09 01:38 AM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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Speaking of which, I know all owners in my condo complex by the name of their dogs. Because that is the only name I hear since I don't talk to them.
"Buddy! Get back here! Buddy!"
Then two weeks later:
"Oh, I think Buddy's owner has a new girlfriend. That last one was such a bitch."
I've lived over him for two years and still have no idea what his name is.
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Lakefingers
Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
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Re: Observations on dog/human relations. *DELETED* [Re: sterbeklang]
#10651161 - 07/10/09 01:51 AM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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Post deleted by Lakefingers
Reason for deletion: "
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Observations on dog/human relations. [Re: daytripper23]
#10651917 - 07/10/09 09:38 AM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
daytripper23 said:
Strange, but leashes never really occurred to me until now - This may sound silly, but we are country bumpkins and have always gotten by without them, even though there has admittedly been a bit of a gray area in terms of obedience.
Now that you mention it though, I can see that this was exactly the difference I have been trying to split with bones without even realizing it.
Ill have to sacrifice my philosophical pride in the mean time, but Ill give it a try.
Well with current leash law (even if your dog is in heel at your side but off leash) you can get ticketed here. Not to mention all the fucking poison oak that my dogs can get into.
Still all my past dogs were under complete and reliable command off leash. Once you have that you really come to realize how much fun a dog is and how much you can include them in almost everything you do and everywhere you go without it being a pain in the ass. And all your friends love them because the behave better than you do.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Observations on dog/human relations. [Re: learningtofly]
#10651923 - 07/10/09 09:40 AM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
learningtofly said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
learningtofly said:
its impossible to teach animals to dance.
Not true
o rly? i'm quite certain animals cannot dance.. Unless PBS/NOVA lied to me?
I've seen little dogs dance. Now if you mean can they do the tango then maybe not but they're sometimes great at freestyle.
--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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sterbeklang
w/e
Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 824
Loc: Filthy Rock
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Re: Observations on dog/human relations. [Re: Lakefingers]
#10652219 - 07/10/09 10:52 AM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Lakefingers said:
I was recently talking to a girl who made it sound like it's such a shame that people don't talk to their neighbors, and she always talks to her neighbors and people are good people (which all just means she's a good person for talking to people and finding the cute, little human in them) and talking to your neighbors is good, and so on and blah, blah. So I says, Why?.
To me, a relationship with one's neighbors is just an added source of peer pressure and gossip. 
"So you guys thinking about having kids anytime soon?"
"How long has it been since you washed those windows?"
"That little blond girl over there never picks up her dog shit."
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Observations on dog/human relations. [Re: sterbeklang]
#10652306 - 07/10/09 11:06 AM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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My neighbors are mostly pests.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Jethro Tull
Oneness
Registered: 02/14/09
Posts: 467
Last seen: 10 years, 4 months
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Re: Observations on dog/human relations. [Re: Icelander]
#10654817 - 07/10/09 08:39 PM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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For some reason, I have seen a few different dogs and interacted with them today (I don't have one at my home). It is so easy to love them unconditionally; they just receive it and reflect it right back, without playing the mind games with you.
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..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.
DC at: Oneness
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Observations on dog/human relations. [Re: Jethro Tull]
#10659042 - 07/11/09 04:13 PM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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You notice the mind games once they live with you. They actually are a lot like us. Very self centered.
--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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