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 ChuangTzu
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 Bowling for Columbine 
#1064009 - 11/18/02 07:51 PM (22 years, 5 months ago) |
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Any thoughts on it?
(it's a documentary film by michael moore for everyone who hasn't seen it. i think it is a worthy investment of $6 for anyone especially rail gun, et. al.. it has a lot more to say than the title implies.)
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BuzzDoctor
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 Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: ChuangTzu]
#1064028 - 11/18/02 07:55 PM (22 years, 5 months ago) |
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My thoughts are that I'd really like to see it but it doesn't seem to be playing at any 'Selected Theatres' in my area ...
Michael Moore is da bomb!
Buzz
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Is the glass half-full or half-empty? I say it is both.
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 chodamunky
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: ChuangTzu]
#1064150 - 11/18/02 09:02 PM (22 years, 5 months ago) |
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it's another movie to change your mind and make u want to give up your gun so the police state can be put into place. Notice how it came out right when the sniper shootings were taking place...
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sir tripsalot
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: chodamunky]
#1064238 - 11/18/02 09:28 PM (22 years, 5 months ago) |
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That's purely coincidence, you thinkl the movie was started in Early in early october when the shootings were happening? Also the press for the movies release was before the sniper stuff.
Komo and Kiro news form Seattle is broadcast to Vancouver. Today theyhave a story showing a guy go into a gunshow and 15 minutes later come out with a high powered sniper rifle lockedand loaded ready for action without any backround check. If you think this is O.K. Congratulations you're retard.This is a main issue in Bowling for Columbine if I'm not mistaken.
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"Little racoons and old possums 'n' stuff all live up in here. They've got to have a little place to sit." Bob Ross.
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Xlea321
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My favourite bit is the kids asking for refunds from Walmart on the bullets that are still lodged in their bodies.
I think Walmart restricted their sale of weaponry after that so at least one good thing came out of it.
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Don't worry, B. Caapi
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Buddha5254
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Xlea321]
#1065665 - 11/19/02 08:47 AM (22 years, 5 months ago) |
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What a great film. I highly recommend this to Invertigo. It touches on so many critical and key issues in our society today. I really like how he ties in the fear factor, and how the current administration expertly taps into our fear to get what they want, like expanded surveillance power and shit like that. Very interesting stuff, Im suprised it wasnt censored.
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Phluck
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Buddha5254]
#1066224 - 11/19/02 12:31 PM (22 years, 5 months ago) |
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"Im suprised it wasnt censored"
Most retarded statement ever.
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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us
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Dogomush
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Phluck]
#1066245 - 11/19/02 12:40 PM (22 years, 5 months ago) |
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yeah mmm hmmm conspiracies I like em. The Bush administration is just sooooo anti guns and war and violence that they are putting out propaganda through MICHAEL MOORE to make you give up your guns. I guess Mike's movie career has shown that if anything he's pro-american government (sarcasm).
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Huxley
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Buddha5254]
#1066918 - 11/19/02 04:31 PM (22 years, 5 months ago) |
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I would say in general that American culture is much more tolerant than Michael Moore. Talk about censorship, that guy is a walking propaganda machine. If you agree with him that's fine, but don't say he is tolerant.
According to Moore, everyone is a racist sexist homophobe except the minute fraction of the population that agrees with his fringe beliefs. If the film is playing anywhere near by I will still go see it, however. Unlike Moore, I'm open to other points of view.
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Anonymous
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: ChuangTzu]
#1066943 - 11/19/02 04:44 PM (22 years, 5 months ago) |
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Good documentary. It makes alot of good points and raises some interesting questions.
Michael Moore is a member of the NRA, and isnt trying to take our guns from us. One of the main themes of the documentary was why do we have gun violence on a vastly greater scale than so many other countries.
He seems pretty tolerant to me, although he does use a lot of propaganda.
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Rono
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: ]
#1066984 - 11/19/02 04:55 PM (22 years, 5 months ago) |
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I think the answer is obvious...Allowing people to carry Handguns.
Don't get me wrong, I have no issue with hunting rifles, shotguns etc...they can also be used for home defense if the need arises. But hand guns are too easy to conceal, inaddition to being too easy to obtain...add that to the average Americans bloodlust and you have a very dangerous combination.
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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"
Edited by Rono (11/19/02 05:16 PM)
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Buddha5254
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Rono]
#1067274 - 11/19/02 06:45 PM (22 years, 5 months ago) |
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Phluck, I wasnt serious you idiot.
I really dont think he accuses everybody of being rascist homophobes, and he isnt on the "fringe"
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Huxley
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Buddha5254]
#1067411 - 11/19/02 07:36 PM (22 years, 5 months ago) |
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Michael Moore is total fringe. His favorite Congressperson is (or should I say was) Cynthia McKinney, the woman from Georgia who said that Bush knew that the WTC towers were going to be attacked beforehand. When she lost her seat, because of her idiotic statements, she blamed it on the Jews, saying it was a Zionist conspiracy.
I like the critic who said his first film should have been titled _Roger and Me Me Me Me Me Me Me Me Me_ Moore is a pompous lard ass.
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Phluck
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Huxley]
#1068046 - 11/19/02 10:11 PM (22 years, 5 months ago) |
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That's some dumb logic.
Was that why she was his favorite? Has Moore said anything like that? No. I don't recall him ever saying anything of that nature.
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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us
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Huxley
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Phluck]
#1068452 - 11/20/02 01:02 AM (22 years, 5 months ago) |
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If you are talking to me, Moore wrote that he would love for McKinney to be President in his Stupid White Men book.
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Rono
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: ChuangTzu]
#1069300 - 11/20/02 09:59 AM (22 years, 5 months ago) |
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I just went and seen the movie last night, and I'm sure it's no surprise to anyone that I loved it. It brought up many interesting points about the U.S., and it all boiled down to one factor....Americans are afraid. What other plausible reason can there be for the vast difference in shootings and violence in comparison with any other westernized country? Canada, per capita has just as many guns as the U.S., yet has a fraction per capita of violent crimes.
As also pointed out in the film, one could say that the U.S. has a violent past, so it's natural to evolve to this state...but what about Germany, or the U.K.?..they certainly had far more violent pasts than the U.S., yet don't face the same issues the U.S. does. Could it be racial the diversity in the U.S.? No...Canada is just as diverse. Could it be poverty?...no, Canada's unemployment rate is higher than the U.S.
There was a short animated clip in the movie that I think summed up everything nicely on how (in general) Americans are afraid. Afraid of eachother, afraid of it's own government, afraid of blacks, afraid of the police, afraid of Jews, afraid of Asians, afraid of Muslims, afraid of other countries, ..the list could go on forever.
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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"
Edited by Rono (11/20/02 07:59 PM)
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Rono
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Huxley]
#1069449 - 11/20/02 10:58 AM (22 years, 5 months ago) |
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In reply to:
Michael Moore is total fringe. His favorite Congressperson is (or should I say was) Cynthia McKinney, the woman from Georgia who said that Bush knew that the WTC towers were going to be attacked beforehand.
There is ALOT of evidence suggesting that Bush did know the attacks were coming (I've made a bazillion posts regarding this and would more than happy to bring them up again if you like) It took alot of courage for Cynthia McKinney to even bring that up...she's should be praised, not ridiculed. I don't agree with all of her stances, but when it comes to 9-11 I support her fully.
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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"
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Phluck
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Huxley]
#1069505 - 11/20/02 11:15 AM (22 years, 5 months ago) |
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I didn't say I don't believe that he likes her as a politician, I said I don't think he agrees with her on the WTC thing.
He's not the fringe wacko, it's the lady.
That's like saying since Bush is a Christian, everyone who voted for him is too.
That is why your logic is retarded.
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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us
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Huxley
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Rono]
#1071175 - 11/20/02 05:52 PM (22 years, 5 months ago) |
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How do you explain why countries like Switzerland, where everyone owns a gun, does not have the amount of gun violence as the US?
And I do reserve the right to criticize McKinney because she is not only ignorant but stupid.
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Huxley
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Rono]
#1071435 - 11/20/02 07:26 PM (22 years, 5 months ago) |
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Could you be a bit more specific about this notion of Americans being afraid of each other? You talk about whites being afraid of blacks and Jews and Asians and whatever else but each race tends to shoot over members of their own race.
Males are more violent than females, and black males are 7 times more likely than white males to commit murder with a gun. The overwhelming majority of these black males shoot other black males, just like whites tend to shoot others whites, and Latinos tend to shoot other Latinos, etc.
And you must admit that if you think that Bush knew about the WTC attack beforehand that you hold a fringe view. Whether it is true or not, 99% of the US population does not believe this, therefore it can't be anything other than a fringe view, unless if you are from France of course
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Phluck
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Huxley]
#1071459 - 11/20/02 07:37 PM (22 years, 5 months ago) |
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"How do you explain why countries like Switzerland, where everyone owns a gun, does not have the amount of gun violence as the US?"
They've all been given military training. Any idiot can buy a gun in the US.
"And I do reserve the right to criticize McKinney because she is not only ignorant but stupid."
Go ahead, just don't claim that Moore agrees with everything she says.
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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us
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Rono
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Huxley]
#1071464 - 11/20/02 07:38 PM (22 years, 5 months ago) |
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In reply to:
How do you explain why countries like Switzerland, where everyone owns a gun, does not have the amount of gun violence as the US?
I can't...but if your statement is true, then you have only strengthened my case that Americans are bloodthirsty.
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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"
Edited by Rono (11/20/02 08:03 PM)
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Rono
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Huxley]
#1071485 - 11/20/02 07:49 PM (22 years, 5 months ago) |
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I thought my post was fairly self explanitory, but I will try to explain it differently. Americans (according to the movie at least) are bombarded with media meant to scare them...Killer Bees, Snipers, Anthrax, Terrorism, Drunken Driving, Gun Control, Riots in L.A., they have no other alternative than to be terrified of everything. Let me give you an hypothetical example...An individual decides he needs a gun for protection, has he ever been a victim previous to buying the gun?..no. Does he personally know anybody that has been in actual need of owning a Glock for protection?...probably not. So where does this idea that he needs a gun come from? Will a gun make him "feel" safer...or more paranoid?
Canada has roughly 10 million homes (notice I said homes, not people)...and an estimated 7 million guns...so where is the violence? The answer is that is must have something to do with the American mentality itself, I ask what else it could be besides fear? (P.S. I never stated anywhere about "whites" being afraid of Blacks...I said Americans)
Americans are being programmed to be afraid...Fear is big business. Think about that for a moment, and how much money you spend on things to make you "feel" safer...
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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"
Edited by Rono (11/20/02 08:02 PM)
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Rono
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Huxley]
#1071499 - 11/20/02 07:57 PM (22 years, 5 months ago) |
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In reply to:
And you must admit that if you think that Bush knew about the WTC attack beforehand that you hold a fringe view. Whether it is true or not, 99% of the US population does not believe this, therefore it can't be anything other than a fringe view, unless if you are from France of course
Yes, of course I hold a fringe view....how could it be popular to admit that the most powerful person in the world knew the attacks were coming, yet did nothing to stop it...after all it's never happened before...oh wait...What about the bombing of London in WW2? That was known well in advance, yet Churchill didn't stop it because he didn't want the Germans to know they broke their code...but that was surely the only case right?...guess again...They recently disclosed that The U.S. government was also aware the Pearl Harbour attack was coming, for the sole purpose of getting America involved in the war. These are terrible acts that perhaps happened for the greater good...that doesn't mean much to the families of the people that died though. Only time will tell whether or not G.W. was aware of what was going on, to me..I think it's obvious...but that's another thread...
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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"
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Ellis Dee
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: ChuangTzu]
#1072718 - 11/21/02 03:19 AM (22 years, 5 months ago) |
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I have my thoughts on Columbine and they're more about the cowardace of the police than the legitamacy of the anti-gun movement.
Remember during Columbine, during the massacre, the police refused to enter citing reasons of officer safety. They chose to allow kids to die because they're prefer not to have any officers harmed. They were just cowards, spineless worthless garbage. They valued the lives of policmen more than the lives of kids. In my opinion it simply speaks of the double standard that exists and how the police view themselvesa as elite uber-citizens and the rest of us as peasants not worth bothering to rescue. If anything I think this blatent double standars should be used to encourage others to carry concealed firearms for personal protection and the defence of other innocent people since Columbine makes clear that the Police have different priorities than trying to save your life (they just don't care about the lives of kids being killed, or your life), like trying to save their own bacon.
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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
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Rono
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Ellis Dee]
#1073190 - 11/21/02 08:53 AM (22 years, 5 months ago) |
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I'm surprised you can't see the irony in your statement...
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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"
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Ellis Dee
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Rono]
#1073473 - 11/21/02 10:57 AM (22 years, 5 months ago) |
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Hey, the cops aren't willing to put their lives on the line when kids are dieing because they're cowards. If I was the cop there I'de have grabbed a shotgun ran in and blased those 2 kids to kingdom come. Arm the teachers and principals and this kind of thing won't get out of hand again.
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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
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Rono
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Ellis Dee]
#1073503 - 11/21/02 11:08 AM (22 years, 5 months ago) |
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The cops were just following a little thing called "procedure"... How did they know the doors weren't booby trapped? Or that there wasn't an ambush waiting for them? There was alot of confusion and panic going on at the time, and only an idiot would go charging into that type of situation without knowing a few details first....I doubt that giving the staff weapons would have changed anything...The irony that I spoke of was that you think that this situation could have been resolved with MORE weapons. (which proves my point about Americans even further) Perhaps the main issue was why did these kids have such easy access to these weapons in the first place? ..or even more importantly, what drove these kids to do such an act in the first place?
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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"
Edited by Rono (11/21/02 11:18 AM)
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Ellis Dee
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Rono]
#1073532 - 11/21/02 11:20 AM (22 years, 5 months ago) |
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Kids were being killed and the cops just wanted to save their own bacon. The cop that was already in the school when it started fled to save himself when he should have stayed to handle the situation. It was a major fiasco on the part of PD. They've taken the blame for allowing it to be so bad and deservedly so. Those procedures you're talking about, those excuses, have been repeated by the PD to try to make it look like hey weren't to blame, but they are. If the teachers had been armeds they could have quickly shot the 2 killers and ended the massacre immediatly, as could have the cop in the school, but he fled.
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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
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Rono
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Ellis Dee]
#1073544 - 11/21/02 11:23 AM (22 years, 5 months ago) |
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And you think a teacher (with no training at all) would have handled the situation better than a cop?...who has been trained for similar situations? Please... that's just another typical "we need MORE guns" knee jerk reaction, when in reality that is the problem. (What if said teacher had a bad day, and decided to go the rampage himself?) Instead of maybe just punching a student out of frustration, he now has the means to kill at his fingertips, while he is in a violent frame of mind.
And you never addressed my other statements...why did these kids have these guns in the first place?
Don't misunderstand me, because I think the public should have weapons...with restrictions. There is no feasable reason why John Q Public needs an Automatic Weapon, or an Assault rifle or any gun that needs a clip for that matter.
Rail Gun, have you seen the movie?
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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"
Edited by Rono (11/21/02 03:55 PM)
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Xlea321
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Ellis Dee]
#1073681 - 11/21/02 12:14 PM (22 years, 5 months ago) |
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Is this the kind of school-life you want for your kids? Two armed kids walking round machine-gunning people and teachers running round like Billy the kid blasting, and more than likely blowing the heads off yet more innocent kids as they go?
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Don't worry, B. Caapi
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angryshroom
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 Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Ellis Dee]
#1074262 - 11/21/02 02:57 PM (22 years, 5 months ago) |
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No matter what, you are a coward if you use a gun against anything.
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luvdemshrooms
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: angryshroom]
#1074415 - 11/21/02 03:51 PM (22 years, 5 months ago) |
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In reply to:
No matter what, you are a coward if you use a gun against anything.
You are incredibly stupid.
If you see a group of guys raping a woman and you use a gun to help, you're a coward?
If you're hiking and you see a rabid or wild animal attack a child, you're a coward if you save him/her with a gun?
During the riots in LA a few years back, and if you were there when that truck driver was dragged from his truck and had his skull caved in, you'd be a coward to protect him with a gun?
If during one of the well publicised school shootings, anyone who stopped the criminals using a gun would be a coward?
Someone is killing a friend or family member and you stop them with a gun, you're a coward?
You ignorant ass. I hope you're never in need of defense. God forbid some coward with a gun should happen along and save your sorry pathetic ass.
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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
Edited by luvdemshrooms (11/21/02 03:52 PM)
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Xlea321
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God forbid some coward with a gun should happen along and save your sorry pathetic ass.
Save someone? You'd more than likely be shaking and panicking so much you'd put two rounds into the raped woman and then get raped yourself.
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Don't worry, B. Caapi
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luvdemshrooms
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Xlea321]
#1074448 - 11/21/02 03:59 PM (22 years, 5 months ago) |
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Sure Albie. You go only believing everyone is like you.
Hard for you to swallow I know, but not all of us are limp wristed little pansies like you.
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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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Xlea321
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Squeal boy Squeal!
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Don't worry, B. Caapi
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Xlea321]
#1074642 - 11/21/02 05:32 PM (22 years, 5 months ago) |
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Sorry Albie, your insults are as weak as your arguements.
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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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ChuangTzu
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Ellis Dee]
#1074702 - 11/21/02 06:04 PM (22 years, 5 months ago) |
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you're acting like kids going into a school to shoot and people and throw bombs is just a normal fucking routine occurance. we're not talking about what happened ater they started. why were they doing it in the first place???
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,248
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: ChuangTzu]
#1074729 - 11/21/02 06:19 PM (22 years, 5 months ago) |
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A question we'll probably never be 100% sure of any answer. It would be simple just to say they were nuts, but there must be a better answer than that. Perhaps spoiled little brats who weren't taught right from wrong.
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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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Viveka
refutation bias
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Rono]
#1074906 - 11/21/02 07:29 PM (22 years, 5 months ago) |
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You're a Canadian. What would you know about living in America, other than what you are fed by the the media and people like Michael Moore???
"Americans (according to the movie at least) are bombarded with media meant to scare them...Killer Bees, Snipers, Anthrax, Terrorism, Drunken Driving, Gun Control, Riots in L.A., they have no other alternative than to be terrified of everything."
Yeah, at least the ignorant, lifeless ones who sit in front of their TV all day and really believe that comfort is the meaning of life.
"An individual decides he needs a gun for protection, has he ever been a victim previous to buying the gun?..no"
An individual decides to put on his seatbelt when he gets into his car. Has he ever ever been in an automobile accident previous to making this choice?..no
"So where does this idea that he needs a gun come from? Will a gun make him "feel" safer...or more paranoid?"
No one NEEDS anything. If someone wants to buy a gun for self-defense, you're wasting your time trying to analyze the way their mind must be working when they make this choice. It's pretty simple really. Maybe owning a gun will make someone more paranoid. What's your point?
"Canada has roughly 10 million homes (notice I said homes, not people)...and an estimated 7 million guns...so where is the violence? The answer is that is must have something to do with the American mentality itself, I ask what else it could be besides fear? "
When you spent all that time asking yourself about the American way of life, did you ever think about population density?
"Americans are being programmed to be afraid...Fear is big business."
What is it with Canadians and other non-americans always making rampant generalizations about Americans? America is just another chunk of land where individuals live. Granted, some are sucked into certain agendas and waht not. But I could sit around all day saying things like "Canadians are being programmed to fuck billy goats, and it makes sense, why else would they all live in the mountains?" but no matter how silly or rational my conclusion, I would be talkin out of my ass becuase I don't live in Canada and even if I did, my opinion could not accurately reflect the big picture.
"...Fear is big business. Think about that for a moment, and how much money you spend on things to make you "feel" safer... "
Is fear an exportable commodity or does it only sell to Americans? Did you ever clutch a teddy bear late at night because you were afraid the BOOGEY MAN was under your bed? 
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sir tripsalot
Administrator
Registered: 07/09/99
Posts: 6,487
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Viveka]
#1074921 - 11/21/02 07:41 PM (22 years, 5 months ago) |
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See if you got Canadian news and A lot of Canadians online(like here for instance) stated that we all lived the mountains. Well then you'd have an excuse to believe that. A lot of Americans( including Michael Moore) say those very things. We didn't make the film an American did. If you think Michael Moore is the only one with these views from America THEN you have a point.
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"Little racoons and old possums 'n' stuff all live up in here. They've got to have a little place to sit." Bob Ross.
Edited by sir tripsalot (11/21/02 08:02 PM)
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Ellis Dee
Archangel
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Rono]
#1075275 - 11/21/02 10:05 PM (22 years, 5 months ago) |
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http://www.spinsanity.org/columns/20021119.html
Viewer beware
In "Bowling for Columbine," Michael Moore once again puts distortions and contradictions before the truth
By Ben Fritz (ben@spinsanity.org)
November 19, 2002
Michael Moore insists he wants to be taken seriously. The author and filmmaker, an unabashed champion for liberal causes, is challenging America's gun culture with his latest endeavor, the documentary "Bowling for Columbine." Like his first film, "Roger and Me," it consists of a mix of satirical interviews with average people, confrontational interviews with celebrities and Moore's thoughts on what is going wrong with America. The argument often takes a back seat to the humor, but that's just Moore's style, as he explained to the Contra Costa Times in March: "I always assume that only 10 to 20 percent of people who read my books or see my films will take the facts and hard-core analysis and do something with it. If I can bring the other 80 percent to it through entertainment and comedy, then some of it will trickle through."
The problem is, once you delve beneath the humor, it turns out his "facts and hard-core analysis" are frequently inaccurate, contradictory and confused. At one point in the film, Moore apparently even alters a Bush-Quayle campaign ad, changing history to make a point. Like many of the political celebrities increasingly filling our TV screens and bookstores, he is entertaining, explicitly partisan, and all too willing to twist facts to promote himself and his vision of the truth.
Moore's problems with veracity date back to "Roger and Me," in which he famously shifted the actual timeline of events for dramatic effect. While garnering some criticism, most notably from the New Yorker's Pauline Kael, the distortions didn't get too many people riled up; indeed, the movie made him a celebrity. This year, with the double-whammy of his best-selling book Stupid White Men and the box office success of "Bowling for Columbine," one of the most financially successful documentaries ever, Moore has become the American left's most prominent media figure.
They could use a better spokesman.
As I showed in April, Stupid White Men is riddled with inaccuracies and ad hominem attacks. In it, Moore claims that five-sixths of the 2001 defense budget went towards a single plane and that two-thirds of President Bush's campaign funds came from just over seven hundred people. Both facts are obviously untrue to anyone remotely familiar with the defense budget or campaign finance law and are disproved by the very sources Moore cites. He accuses former President Clinton of having "kick[ed] ten million people off of welfare," assuming that every person who left the rolls during the '90s boom was brutally left to fend for herself, rather than leaving for a job. The book is riddled with similarly absurd arguments, most notably that the recession is a creation of the wealthy who "are wallowing in the loot they've accumulated in the past two decades, and now they want to make sure you don't come a-lookin' for your piece of the pie."
"Bowling for Columbine" is more of the same. Although, like Stupid White Men, it's full of hilarious moments, Moore can't seem to keep his facts or his arguments straight.
Counterintuitively for a liberal, he wants to argue that gun control is not a significant factor in America's high rate of gun deaths compared to other countries, and to do so, he travels to Canada, which he claims is similar to the U.S. in every way except its attitude towards self-reliance. He dismisses typical liberal concerns about poverty creating crime, noting that, "Liberals contend [gun violence is a result of] all the poverty we have here. But the unemployment rate in Canada is twice what we have here." By every measure of international comparison, though, Canada's poverty rate is significantly lower than that of the U.S., thanks to the generous social insurance programs that he repeatedly praises in the film.
Much more mendaciously, Moore has apparently altered footage of an ad run by the Bush/Quayle campaign in 1988 to implicate Bush in the Willie Horton scandal. Making a point about the use of racial symbols to scare the American public, he shows the Bush/Quayle ad called "Revolving Doors," which attacked Michael Dukakis for a Massachusetts prison furlough program by showing prisoners entering and exiting a prison (the original ad can be seen here [Real Player video]). Superimposed over the footage of the prisoners is the text "Willie Horton released. Then kills again." This caption is displayed as if it is part of the original ad. However, existing footage, media reports and the recollections of several high-level people involved in the campaign indicate that the "Revolving Doors" ad did not explicitly mention Horton, unlike the notorious ad run by the National Security Political Action Committee (which had close ties to Bush media advisor Roger Ailes). In addition, the caption is incorrect -- Horton did not kill anyone while on prison furlough (he raped a woman).
Although he uses statistics much less frequently in "Bowling for Columbine" than in Stupid White Men, Moore still manages to present at least one figure inaccurately. During a stylized overview of US foreign policy, he claims that the U.S. gave $245 million in aid to the Taliban rulers of Afghanistan in 2000 and 2001. The Taliban aid tale is a favorite of Moore's that he has repeated in numerous media appearances over the past year. Contrary to his claim, the aid did not go to the Taliban -- it actually consisted of food and food security programs administered by the United Nations and non-governmental organizations to relieve an impending famine.
Beyond the satire and the fabrications, just what is Moore's argument? It's often hard to tell. At times, while dismissing the influence of pop culture, he blames the government's militarism, suggesting that it's somehow relevant that the day of the Columbine High School shootings was also the day of one of the heaviest U.S.-led NATO bombings in Yugoslavia. (Moore is an ardent opponent of U.S. military intervention - soon after the war on terrorism began, he called the President and Vice President "Bin Bush" and "Bin Cheney" and said on the radio program "Democracy Now" [Real Player audio], "We're the national sniper when it comes to going after countries like Iraq.") Even setting aside this questionable chain of causality, Moore contradicts his own thesis that foreign bombing leads to domestic gun violence when he approvingly notes that the United Kingdom, which played a leading role in bombing Yugoslavia with the U.S., had only 68 gun homicides the same year America had 11,127.
Contradicting himself doesn't seem to be a problem for Moore, though. In the movie and subsequent media appearances, he has derided America's lack of a social safety net, comparing us unfavorably to Canada, even though he states explicitly in the film that the two countries don't differ significantly in terms of poverty.
Moore also claims several times that our higher gun homicide rate must be the result of American culture rather than the greater number of guns in our country, citing the fact that Canada has a much lower gun homicide rate despite having seven million guns in its ten million homes (Moore ignores the fact that Canada has significantly fewer handguns and a much stricter gun licensing system). Yet that doesn't stop him from repeatedly bashing the anti-gun control NRA and even making a visit to the home of its president, Charlton Heston, the climax of the movie. In an e-mail to supporters , Moore even referred to Heston as a "gun supremacist." And in an interview on Phil Donahue's MSNBC show recently, Moore said he supports banning all handguns just minutes before stating, "I don't think, ultimately, getting rid of the guns will be the answer."
Repeatedly, though, he returns to the issue of fear in the movie, claiming that excessive coverage of gun violence by the media makes Americans scared of each other and therefore more violent. This circular argument doesn't make any sense either. On the one hand, Moore has made an entire film purporting to investigate why the U.S. has the highest rate of gun violence in the developed world. He then attempts to answer the question by theorizing that the media provides too much coverage of gun violence, causing citizens to fear each other. If gun violence is really so bad, though, shouldn't the media be covering it and don't citizens have something to be afraid of? And if the media is indeed over-covering the issue and America is safer than we think, why did Moore make this film?
Ironically, Moore interviews and cites the work of USC Professor Barry Glassner, whose book The Culture of Fear attacks the media for sensationalizing incidents of bad news while ignoring the bigger picture. One of the book's primary examples is extensive media coverage of school shootings that ignores the overall downward trend in youth violence in recent years. Indeed, Glassner points out that people are three times more likely to be struck dead by lightning than die in a school shooting. Moore, however, focuses extensively in the film on the Columbine massacre and a school shooting in his hometown of Flint, Michigan, and doesn't seem all that concerned with the country's epidemic of lightning strikes.
Here, as ever, Michael Moore just doesn't seem to know what he thinks. When pressed, in fact, he isn't even sure he actually has a point. Appearing on CNN's Moneyline last spring, host Lou Dobbs asked him about the inaccuracies in Stupid White Men. "How can there be inaccuracy in comedy?" Moore responded.
Satire is not an excuse for dissembling. Great satirists like Jonathan Swift and Mark Twain used hyperbole as a form of social criticism. Michael Moore, however, uses lies, distortions, and nonsensical arguments to mask cheap attacks and promote his own political agenda. Take him seriously at your own risk.
Clarification - 11/20 9:34 AM EST: The figure on homicides in the United Kingdom should have read that that country had 68 gun homicides the same year the U.S. had 11,127, not total homicides.
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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
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angryshroom
Stranger
Registered: 12/18/01
Posts: 7,264
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Thanks luvdem...
I love you too
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Xlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Ellis Dee]
#1075492 - 11/21/02 11:43 PM (22 years, 5 months ago) |
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the recession is a creation of the wealthy who "are wallowing in the loot they've accumulated in the past two decades, and now they want to make sure you don't come a-lookin' for your piece of the pie."
True enough.
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Don't worry, B. Caapi
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Rono
DSYSB since '01
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Posts: 16,259
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Last seen: 2 years, 2 months
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Viveka]
#1076424 - 11/22/02 09:25 AM (22 years, 5 months ago) |
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EvilEye, thanks for responding to my post....now allow me to retort...
Firstly, as a Canadian citizen I probably know more about living in the U.S. than you realize. In fact, I think it would be safe to say that most Canadians know more about the U.S. than they know about their own country...and probably many Americans.
Quote:
Yeah, at least the ignorant, lifeless ones who sit in front of their TV all day and really believe that comfort is the meaning of life.
Unfortunately you have just described the vast majority of the population of the western world.
Quote:
An individual decides to put on his seatbelt when he gets into his car. Has he ever ever been in an automobile accident previous to making this choice?..no
That is a bad analogy...not wearing a seatbelt won't affect anybody but yourself, however buying a gun has many implications that affect everyone around you.
Quote:
No one NEEDS anything. If someone wants to buy a gun for self-defense, you're wasting your time trying to analyze the way their mind must be working when they make this choice. It's pretty simple really. Maybe owning a gun will make someone more paranoid. What's your point?
I agree, with you...but what other motivation would someone have for buying an automatic weapon besides fear? If you can think of a better reason I would love to hear it.
Quote:
When you spent all that time asking yourself about the American way of life, did you ever think about population density?
Have you ever even been to Canada? We have large cites just like the U.S...and we don't have the same problems...ever hear of a little town called Toronto? Or how about the U.K. or Japan, where the population density is far greater than the U.S...where is all the violence there?
Quote:
What is it with Canadians and other non-americans always making rampant generalizations about Americans?
If the rest of the world is trying to tell you something, maybe you should consider the thought that they may have a point, before you get defensive....If all your friends are trying to tell you that you have spinach in your teeth do you think that they are lying to make you look stupid? No, you thank them for telling you and remove the spinach...
Quote:
Is fear an exportable commodity or does it only sell to Americans? Did you ever clutch a teddy bear late at night because you were afraid the BOOGEY MAN was under your bed?
Of course fear isn't just localized to the U.S., but no other country seems to have made such an industry out of it...
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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"
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Rono
DSYSB since '01
Registered: 01/25/01
Posts: 16,259
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Last seen: 2 years, 2 months
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Ellis Dee]
#1076694 - 11/22/02 11:28 AM (22 years, 5 months ago) |
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Rail Gun...the funny thing is that I agree with most of what that article says...but that doesn't change the fact that Michael Moore raises some very valid points that need to be examined further. Go see the movie, then decide for yourself.
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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"
Edited by Rono (11/22/02 11:29 AM)
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,248
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Rono]
#1077204 - 11/22/02 03:02 PM (22 years, 5 months ago) |
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In reply to:
Unfortunately you have just described the vast majority of the population of the western world.
Sad but true.
.
.
In reply to:
however buying a gun has many implications that affect everyone around you.
Perhaps a better way to phrase this would be a criminal with a gun ...etc.
I have owned guns for 24 years and other than one or two noise complaints there has been no effect on anyone. Well I suppose I did help the owner of the gun store, gun makers, and ammo makers to earn a living but I suspect thats not what you meant. The vast majority of gun owners are the same as me. Law abiding. The Justice Dept reports less than 1/10 of 1 percent of guns are used illegaly.
.
.
In reply to:
I agree, with you...but what other motivation would someone have for buying an automatic weapon besides fear? If you can think of a better reason I would love to hear it.
Besides the best reason in the worldd... because we can, they are fun. That pesky bill of rights again.
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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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Xlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
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The vast majority of gun owners are the same as me
Now that is a terrifying thought.
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Don't worry, B. Caapi
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,248
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Xlea321]
#1077279 - 11/22/02 03:33 PM (22 years, 5 months ago) |
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Try to read the entire sentence. It may help you appear less foolish. Though I doubt it.
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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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Xlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
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Yeah gun nuts are law-abiding. Right up until the day they go into a school and start blowing kids heads off.
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Don't worry, B. Caapi
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angryshroom
Stranger
Registered: 12/18/01
Posts: 7,264
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So Luvdem, did you see the movie yet ? What is your responses to it if you have?
I think it was a great movie...very entertaining and in ways even educational.
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Xlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: angryshroom]
#1117283 - 12/06/02 01:14 PM (22 years, 5 months ago) |
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If luvvie watched it his brain would explode. (and you still wouldn't see his hat move...)
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Don't worry, B. Caapi
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angryshroom
Stranger
Registered: 12/18/01
Posts: 7,264
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Xlea321]
#1117313 - 12/06/02 01:19 PM (22 years, 5 months ago) |
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hehe.
Well it does attack his views, I wouldn't really enjoy a movie glamorizing the meat industry.
Wouldn't it be illegal to make a movie like Moore's if the facts were just lies? It would seem that the movie theaters and producers wouldn't allow it. Im sure a lot of it is leaned towards his thoughts, and interviews are clipped out to what he wants, but, the people still said it.
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,248
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: angryshroom]
#1117670 - 12/06/02 02:59 PM (22 years, 5 months ago) |
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I saw his first movie. I'll never watch another of his.
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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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Evolving
Resident Cynic
Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: angryshroom]
#1117710 - 12/06/02 03:12 PM (22 years, 5 months ago) |
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In reply to:
Wouldn't it be illegal to make a movie like Moore's if the facts were just lies?
No.
In reply to:
It would seem that the movie theaters and producers wouldn't allow it.
Sure they would.
In reply to:
Im sure a lot of it is leaned towards his thoughts, and interviews are clipped out to what he wants
Without a doubt. With creative editing, you can make black appear white, and solids as fluid as the wind.
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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.' Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence. Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains. Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.
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angryshroom
Stranger
Registered: 12/18/01
Posts: 7,264
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Evolving]
#1118068 - 12/06/02 05:08 PM (22 years, 5 months ago) |
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If his "facts" weren't true, then why would he want to spend all his time making a movie on untrue statements? Why isin't there a lot of controversy over it? Seems like everyone in my town and people who I've talked to about it say its a great movie, and they agree to what he is saying. Maybe its because I live in a liberal area... 
Personally I think he makes some strong statements.
I still dont know what to say about it...why is there so many damn gun inflicted murders in the US (11,000) per year while other large, densly populated countries rank lower than 100...
Should something be done ? Seems liek it should be a lot harder to own a hand gun... Rifles are a different story I suppose.
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Xlea321]
#1118188 - 12/06/02 05:58 PM (22 years, 5 months ago) |
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Yeah gun nuts are law-abiding. Right up until the day they go into a school and start blowing kids heads off.
I have tried to be polite to you in my responses to your posts. But, this post of
yours is absolutely the stupidest thing I have ever seen you say.
You are insinuating that people who have an interest in guns, whether for
sporting reasons or for personal protection, are people who engage in violent and
terrible crimes. This is not true. Criminals and emotionally or mentally sick people
kill people with guns. Blame the person responsible for the action. Don't blame
law-abiding people who happen to have the same tool that the criminal or
unbalanced person used.
If someone gets drunk and gets in a car accident, and in the process kills several
people, should my car be taken away from me? No. I had nothing to do
with that accident, therefore my driving privileges should not be affected.
Through all of your posts, you have proven yourself to be blindly biased towards anything that is remotely liberal, and it is amazing that you cannot see that.
RandalFlagg
Edited by RandalFlagg (12/06/02 06:02 PM)
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angryshroom
Stranger
Registered: 12/18/01
Posts: 7,264
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: RandalFlagg]
#1118965 - 12/06/02 11:30 PM (22 years, 5 months ago) |
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I would say that he's referring to the people who are mentally off, not the ones who are law-abiding.
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Xlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: RandalFlagg]
#1119093 - 12/07/02 12:21 AM (22 years, 5 months ago) |
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I have tried to be polite to you in my responses to your posts.
Cheers.
Blame the person responsible for the action. Don't blame
Tell me something. Would you give everyone in America a nuclear bomb? If not, why not? Sure, there are some people who would keep a nuclear bomb responsibly but there would be some who wouldn't.
Now work the argument on down. You wouldn't give them a nuclear bomb because that would kill too many people right? So would you give them a 10,000lb daisy cutter bomb? An F-16? A helicopter gun-ship? Keep going till you get to machine guns and then rifles and see what happens to your "Blame the weapon not the person" argument.
Through all of your posts, you have proven yourself to be blindly biased towards anything that is remotely liberal, and it is amazing that you cannot see that.
Lets stick to the arguments shall we. I could say you have shown yourself blindly biased towards anything that is remotely right-wing and it is amazing that you cannot see that. But what would be the point?
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Don't worry, B. Caapi
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
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Posts: 15,608
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Xlea321]
#1119620 - 12/07/02 09:56 AM (22 years, 5 months ago) |
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Blame the person responsible for the action. Don't blame
Tell me something. Would you give everyone in America a nuclear bomb? If not, why not? Sure, there are some people who would keep a nuclear bomb responsibly but there would be some who wouldn't.
Now work the argument on down. You wouldn't give them a nuclear bomb because that would kill too many people right? So would you give them a 10,000lb daisy cutter bomb? An F-16? A helicopter gun-ship? Keep going till you get to machine guns and then rifles and see what happens to your "Blame the weapon not the person" argument.
There is not a legitimate use for an F-16 or an attack helicopter, by a normal
citizen. However, there are uses for firearms by normal citizens. I believe it is an
essential right for the law-abiding section of the populace to have access to
REASONABLE weapons, so that if a circumstance were to arise, they would be
able to protect themselves.
Through all of your posts, you have proven yourself to be blindly biased towards anything that is remotely liberal, and it is amazing that you cannot see that.
Lets stick to the arguments shall we. I could say you have shown yourself blindly biased towards anything that is remotely right-wing and it is amazing that you cannot see that. But what would be the point?
Well, I do think that your bias affects your arguments, and therefore it is fair game
to mention it. But, you are right. What is the point in mentioning it?
RandalFlagg
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Gunboat
At the bottom ofJudecca
Registered: 12/05/02
Posts: 173
Loc: Toronto, Canada
Last seen: 21 years, 6 months
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: RandalFlagg]
#1120976 - 12/07/02 11:49 PM (22 years, 5 months ago) |
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Like the title of the Hunter Thompson book...
Fear & Loathing in America.
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"I was recently on a tour of Latin America, and the only regret I have was that I didn't study Latin harder in school so I could converse with those people."
- J. Danforth Quayle
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Xlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: RandalFlagg]
#1121567 - 12/08/02 03:41 AM (22 years, 5 months ago) |
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There is not a legitimate use for an F-16 or an attack helicopter, by a normal citizen..
Depends what you call legitimate. I hear a lot of talk from the NRA that the reason people have guns is to "stop tyrants" or to "stop the US being invaded". Clearly if this is a valid reason then you are going to need far more than a saturday night special to fend off the american air force. If it isn't legitimate to have a weapon that would actually be of some use in fighting off an army then it clearly isn't legitimate to have a .38 (which would be of no use whatsoever).
Work it on down the line. Would you equp every citizen with mortar grenades for example? Anti-tank launchers? What if your house is attacked by a gang of burglars? What weapon do you consider too dangerous too issue to everyone?
have access to REASONABLE weapons
So you agree that for all other weapons except rifles my argument is perfectly valid. You don't give people access to dangerous weapons. Why do you classify rifles as distinct from other weapons? After all as you say they are only "tools". A surface to air missile launcher isn't going to jump off the table and fire itself is it.
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Don't worry, B. Caapi
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Xlea321]
#1121691 - 12/08/02 07:15 AM (22 years, 5 months ago) |
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There is not a legitimate use for an F-16 or an attack helicopter, by a normal citizen..
Depends what you call legitimate.
We as a a society have to determine what are reasonable weapons for
the general law-abiding population to have. In my opinion, people with no
history of violence or mental illness, should have access to rifles, shotguns, and
handguns for sporting and personal protection reasons
I hear a lot of talk from the NRA that the reason people have guns is to "stop tyrants" or to "stop the US being invaded".
You are referring to wacko right-wing extremists. The kind of people who think
that the UN is trying to take over the world, etc.. They are not indicative of
the average gun owner's concerns.
Work it on down the line. Would you equp every citizen with mortar grenades for example? Anti-tank launchers? What if your house is attacked by a gang of burglars? What weapon do you consider too dangerous too issue to everyone?
I don't think guns should be issued to people. I think responsible people should
have access to them however.
have access to REASONABLE weapons
So you agree that for all other weapons except rifles my argument is perfectly valid. You don't give people access to dangerous weapons. Why do you classify rifles as distinct from other weapons? After all as you say they are only "tools". A surface to air missile launcher isn't going to jump off the table and fire itself is it.
Democracy is a delicate balancing act of trying to protect the general population,
while trying to respect the freedoms of individual people.
As I said before, we must decide what weapons should be available and what
ones shouldn't be. We must decide what restrictions we should have on
the legal weapons, and what kind of qualifications should be in place in order to obtain them.
There will always be people who commit crimes. We must not allow these loathesome and irresponsible people to dictate what freedoms we have or don't have in our lives.
RandalFlagg
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sir tripsalot
Administrator
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: ChuangTzu]
#1144212 - 12/15/02 06:49 PM (22 years, 5 months ago) |
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I wathced it tonight, I really enjoyed the film(but hey Canadians love anything that even mentions us on T.V or in movies )
He does a great job raising unanswered questions, it seems a lot of people would like to keep them that way.People don't like him but all he does is go up to them and address what happened.
Anybody who is angered by the movie is just being silly. He doens't do any manipulation of facts, during the Dick Clark thing he kinda lost me a bit and he still didn't tie that up with a nice bow.
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"Little racoons and old possums 'n' stuff all live up in here. They've got to have a little place to sit." Bob Ross.
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Thor
Anti-Theist OVERLORD
Registered: 08/12/98
Posts: 10,017
Loc: Iceland
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Quote:
I wathced it tonight, I really enjoyed the film(but hey Canadians love anything that even mentions us on T.V or in movies )
He does a great job raising unanswered questions, it seems a lot of people would like to keep them that way.People don't like him but all he does is go up to them and address what happened.
Anybody who is angered by the movie is just being silly. He doens't do any manipulation of facts, during the Dick Clark thing he kinda lost me a bit and he still didn't tie that up with a nice bow.
I just watched it tonight myself, and as per usual Michael Moore does a wonderfull job taking a unique look at the mentallity behind all the violence.
I don't think removing all guns is a solution, I'm for gun ownership within reasonable limits. I mean really the issue is for after watching the movie is simply the horrible media that sensationalizes news in such a manner as to invoke fear and of course ratings...
The element of fear in America and mis-trust of everyone you live near creates a definate enviornment that obviously is a big part of violence...
I think that capitalism is a bad idea in its pure form, because the attitude that its me, me, me, me, only makes things worse... I mean what happened to ideals like concern for your fellow man, compassion, fellowship...
I think the world see's America as a great vision that has been going astray.. I wish more American's could see this point of the current American society becoming a failed experiment.
But great film, I really hope a lot of people get to see it.
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Xlea321
Stranger
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: RandalFlagg]
#1174528 - 12/28/02 12:15 AM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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You are referring to wacko right-wing extremists
True, true. I've heard pinkie, luvvie, inny come out with it on this board. And a few others.
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Don't worry, B. Caapi
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joeshitragpicker
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Xlea321]
#1176713 - 12/29/02 06:06 AM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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about colombine......
Hmm if it was me, and I was a depressed goth child looking for attention, I'd DEFINATELY think twice about walking into a school where I knew that at least 1 out of five teachers had a safe with a gun in it. Am I wrong here?
Can all of you cun control freaks just stop and think about it before you blurt out (yes blurt) heh "arming so&so is not the answer."?
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luvdemshrooms
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Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,248
Loc: Lost In Space
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Advocates of gun control for the most part mean well but don't think very hard. They wish for a society where we all love one another, governments are pure of thought and deed, and we're all just one big happy family.
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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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Zimzum
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 Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: RandalFlagg]
#1177299 - 12/29/02 11:19 AM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
You are referring to wacko right-wing extremists. The kind of people who think
that the UN is trying to take over the world, etc.. They are not indicative of
the average gun owner's concerns.
Quote:
I don't think guns should be issued to people. I think responsible people should
have access to them however.
have access to REASONABLE weapons
I think the militia (...the whole purpose of the second amendment) needs unreasonable weapons too, if to be of any use but for target pracrice.
Z
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sir tripsalot
Administrator
Registered: 07/09/99
Posts: 6,487
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Quote:
about colombine......
Hmm if it was me, and I was a depressed goth child looking for attention, I'd DEFINATELY think twice about walking into a school where I knew that at least 1 out of five teachers had a safe with a gun in it. Am I wrong here?
Can all of you cun control freaks just stop and think about it before you blurt out (yes blurt) heh "arming so&so is not the answer."?
Don't forget these guys shot themselves too, that was as premeditated as the original shootings I beleive(as oppsed to getting surprised that cops showed up and deciding to end it all). THe upside is it may have ended quicker, but I don't think it would have changed there decision to do it since dying was part of the plan.
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"Little racoons and old possums 'n' stuff all live up in here. They've got to have a little place to sit." Bob Ross.
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Thor
Anti-Theist OVERLORD
Registered: 08/12/98
Posts: 10,017
Loc: Iceland
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Quote:
Advocates of gun control for the most part mean well but don't think very hard. They wish for a society where we all love one another, governments are pure of thought and deed, and we're all just one big happy family.
No, just most of us want to know why it is that the US citizens tend to shoot each other way more than any other country. Some people say its the sheer number of guns, but I think the truth lies more in the middle.
Removing guns isn't the solution, maybe actually enforcing the laws better would be a start.. BUT, what I loved about bowling for columbine is how the argument can be made that the US has this atmosphere of fear in the media and thus of course in the population.
The US Media is so much for scare tactics and getting ratings by being dramatic.
For me that was the point that struck me the most, is that the mentality of each citizen on their own without any support, and the fact that the society is all about competition, greed, fame, etc.. It seems to me that the US creates gun violence by having a society bent on caring little about its fellow man.
For those who think comparing to Canada was unfair or something like that, then the same comparison could be made the Great Britain, Germany, France, Sweden, Australia, etc..
The fact remains that a society that doesn't do anything for their poor seems to have problems with violence because of that.. People who have nothing to lose are quick to violence and crime..
I mean a country as wealthy as the US should have universal health care and a support system for unemployed and welfare cases...
As patriotic as americans are, what is truly interesting is how little they care for each other.. Its all about selfishness, greed, etc...
So that would go a long way to explaining why it is that there is so much more gun violence as compared to say Canada that has 7 million households out of 10 million families that have guns...
Its all Attitude that is the problem, the US citizen has a vastly different attitude that most other western countries don't..
You can argue its better than everywhere else, but for me its worse.. I came from a socialist country (Iceland) where you can't find a bum, to Canada where I think the system is much better than the overly socialistic Iceland system.
I think Canada is pretty close to being top notch for a way a country should be run, BUT, the big problem is to fix the current healthcare system so that it can again become the envy of many western nations.
The reason the US is the focus of criticism, well that simply because the US is in the spotlight all the time, the US has interests everywhere in this world and its hard not to notice things the US is doing wrong..
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sir tripsalot
Administrator
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Thor]
#1177367 - 12/29/02 11:51 AM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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The fear thing seems very real. The guy from Southpark put it together pretty well. Basically you're told if ya fuck up now you're fucked for life. Anybody being constantly bombarded with this kind of thing would be worried( I have been, when the news say that terrorists are gonna target the seattle space needle with god knows what I get worried).
I liked the guy who was asked what an intruder looked like and he started pointing at everybody around him, that's paranoia. I'd rather get robbed at gun pount by a 90 year old lady than worry about it all the time.
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"Little racoons and old possums 'n' stuff all live up in here. They've got to have a little place to sit." Bob Ross.
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Thor
Anti-Theist OVERLORD
Registered: 08/12/98
Posts: 10,017
Loc: Iceland
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Quote:
The fear thing seems very real. The guy from Southpark put it together pretty well. Basically you're told if ya fuck up now you're fucked for life. Anybody being constantly bombarded with this kind of thing would be worried( I have been, when the news say that terrorists are gonna target the seattle space needle with god knows what I get worried).
I liked the guy who was asked what an intruder looked like and he started pointing at everybody around him, that's paranoia. I'd rather get robbed at gun pount by a 90 year old lady than worry about it all the time.
I think the media in the US has to shoulder much of the blame for that enviornment of fear.
Like the child abduction scare, now every parent is freaked out even though statistics show that abductions are on the decline.
But when you watch everynews station covering a child abduction case 24hrs a day; then yeah it puts fear in the population.
I think the media has to be more responsible on how it tries to get ratings through sensationalism and fear.
Accountability is needed.
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Thor]
#1177620 - 12/29/02 01:34 PM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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No, just most of us want to know why it is that the US citizens tend to shoot
each other way more than any other country. Some people say its the sheer
number of guns, but I think the truth lies more in the middle.
I think it has more to do with the fact that there is a huge mix of different types
of people from different cultures and backgrounds in America. Differences
breed distrust and envy.
Removing guns isn't the solution, maybe actually enforcing the laws better
would be a start..
I could not have said it better myself.
The US Media is so much for scare tactics and getting ratings by being
dramatic.
Aren't other countries like this too? Isn't their news often slanted towards the
eye-catching and the dramatic?
For me that was the point that struck me the most, is that the mentality of
each citizen on their own without any support, and the fact that the society
is all about competition, greed, fame, etc..
When you give people the freedom to be selfish, they will act selfishly at times.
The fact remains that a society that doesn't do anything for their poor seems
to have problems with violence because of that.. People who have nothing to
lose are quick to violence and crime..
America does tons of stuff for it's poor: Public housing, welfare, food stamps,
medicaid, etc..
As patriotic as americans are, what is truly interesting is how little they care
for each other.. Its all about selfishness, greed, etc...
That is a stereotype.
RandalFlagg
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sir tripsalot
Administrator
Registered: 07/09/99
Posts: 6,487
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: RandalFlagg]
#1177675 - 12/29/02 02:08 PM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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The movie addressed all those Randal:
Canada and U,K have as much ethnicity differences as U.S.A.
Sitting in my work at this moment I see about 75 people here, about half are white.
Our Media is very different, I get to watch both about half and half. The way a news story is handled is very different.
"America does tons of stuff for it's poor: Public housing, welfare, food stamps, "
maybe not enough....
Not to be insulting but have you seen the movie?
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"Little racoons and old possums 'n' stuff all live up in here. They've got to have a little place to sit." Bob Ross.
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
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Not to be insulting but have you seen the movie?
No, I have not. I probably should. While I don't agree with Micheal Moore's
politics, I can admit that he is often humorous.
RandalFlagg
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Thor
Anti-Theist OVERLORD
Registered: 08/12/98
Posts: 10,017
Loc: Iceland
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: RandalFlagg]
#1177708 - 12/29/02 02:25 PM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
I think it has more to do with the fact that there is a huge mix of different types
of people from different cultures and backgrounds in America. Differences
breed distrust and envy.
Thats just not the case though, look at the UK, Germany, Canada.. We have as much cultural diversity as the US, this is just a common mis-persception that people have.
Quote:
Aren't other countries like this too? Isn't their news often slanted towards the
eye-catching and the dramatic?
I can only speak for Canadian news, UK news, Spanish news, and a little of Germany newscasts. In those news there isn't nearly the type of American style news, yes sometimes they focus on a story, but nothing remotely close to the US way. Most news there is simply just that a news story, much like say watching the more mellow US news like 60 Minutes, or better ABC's Nightline. More relaxed serious news type stuff... Just watch BBC's newscasting, its truly excellent.
Quote:
When you give people the freedom to be selfish, they will act selfishly at times.
Are Canadians not free? British? German? Australians? Swedes? We all share freedom as a common theme, but our form of society is what is different. All other western countries have more concern for our indigent and have a safety net for their societies... Its the poor and desperate that are often the cause of much crime, so if you take better care of the poor and unemployed; doesn't it make sense that your crime rate would be lower?
Having a social net is what seperates the US from most countries, since the US prides itself on how its the land of oppertunity.. While this is true, it is also quite ruthless to those who don't succeed.
Did you know the wealth of the .1% of the US has gone up 150% in the last 30 years, while the wealth of the middle class has gone up 10%... In that 30 years housing costs have skyrocketed and the standard of living for the middle class is sadly going downhill. Sorry to be obvious, but the US model of wealth as an way of life is a pipe dream.. Only a few make it while the rest, the vast majority are struggling to make ends meet while the 'old money' continues to 'keep it in the family.'
Quote:
America does tons of stuff for it's poor: Public housing, welfare, food stamps,
medicaid, etc..
I'm sorry but they don't... In comparison to other western countries the American model is horrible. Around 50 million people living in poverty! In countries like Canada we have a support system that allows people to get back on their feet, in the US welfare is a trap that has been shown to give little hope of people getting out of it.
The US is just not caring for its indigent and sick. What about 50 million people not having healthcare?? Also do you think at least the US should guarantee free healthcare for children?? They can't even do that!
Health care should be a right that all free people enjoy, because while most people can afford to pay into a health care system, those who can't shouldn't be left out.
Don't get me started on how healthcare for profit also causes a lot of ethical problems with people's care coming second to the all mighty dollar.
Quote:
That is a stereotype.
It definately is, but to a degree it describes the 'feeling' of the country rather than an accurate description of all individuals.
The US attitude is "You're on your own, good luck." Canada and most other western countries say "We will help you if you fall."
I mean its not easy to judge something like this, I know it isn't that black and white. But the US societal attitude is certainly unique from most countries and maybe that is what needs to change for there to be less violence..
I mean your leader is a warmonger, the general outlook he gives the rest of the world is one of a bully. The US attitude seems to be lets bomb them instead of taking a hard look at the reasons for this terrorism..
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Skikid16
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Thor]
#1177768 - 12/29/02 03:00 PM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
I mean your leader is a warmonger, the general outlook he gives the rest of the world is one of a bully. The US attitude seems to be lets bomb them instead of taking a hard look at the reasons for this terrorism..
Exactly.
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Re-Defeat Bush in '04
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Ped
Interested In Your Brain
Registered: 08/30/99
Posts: 5,494
Loc: Canada
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Thor]
#1177813 - 12/29/02 03:35 PM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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It's clear that the problem is not with guns, but the attitude people have toward guns in America.
Ask an American why he has an assault rifle, and more often than not, he'll say it's to defend himself and his family from something like a burglar, or another sort of intruder. Now break down all the nouns. Why does he have gun? "To defend from " or, "To defend from ."
You're left to ask yourself: "Why? Where does that fear come from?"
The only plausible answer I can come up with is the one that Michael Moore came up with: The media.
"Violence in the media" does not mean to say "Violence as entertainment." Violence in the news. Cops. America's Most Wanted. CNN, MSNBC, CNNBCBMSNBC, or whatever corporate orgy can you assemble. When I flip on American news stations, I am guaranteed to see something about guns, war, death, or terror, within minutes. When I flip on a Canadian news station, it usually involves something with the weather, projections for next seasons crops, Canadian political squabbling, or controversial changes in national law. In fact, I'm going to do that right now. I am turning on my TV. I'll leave it without the sound on.
CNN: I just turned it on, and I am looking at planes firing many rounds, still shots of bombs, shots of bombs dropping, many rows of explosions, army men are talking, large planes are taking off, head-up displays of fighter jets, many rapidly changing shots of planes, bombs. Aaron Brown is speaking now. I've turned the sound on. This is about a new fighter jet America has produced or acquired that is 'by far the world's best'. Now AOL commercials.
Now I'll flip to CTVNN.
CTV News Net: There's been a house fire in Quebec. A 10 year old and his younger sister died in the fire. They don't know what started the fire. Ha, now they're talking about gun control. They're talking about how many of our citizens have failed to report their firearms to the federal government. They are interviewing people at a shooting range about the new gun registration laws in Canada. Lots of people are disatisfied. Some people in BC are upset about finding miniature panda bear crackers that have swastikas on them. Apparently they were from India, where the swastika represents the god of good luck.
Let's try CNNHN.
CNN Headline News: A senator says he plans to pass a law that will make military service mandatory for every American citizen. An unknown bomber has killed many people in Chechnya. They don't know who he is, but they do know he had "plenty of funding from Arab countries." At the bottom of the screen, scrolling text says that North Korea is "defiant in the face of US inspectors." Now they're talking about LOTR II.
I think I'll stop here.
People in fear do irrational things. Michael Moore says that people in fear do 11,127 irrational things every year. And that's the whole point of the film, if you ask me.
Michael Moore brings up the question; "If it can't be attributed to racial tension, historic violence, accessibility of guns, or Marilyn Manson, why is there so much gun violence in America?" This is a perfectly valid question. Moore brings up some explanations for it, and I agree with them. You certainly don't have to agree with me, and you certainly don't have to agree with Michael Moore. No one is holding a gun to your head.
The question is; the point is: "Why?"
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 Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud
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Ped
Interested In Your Brain
Registered: 08/30/99
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: RandalFlagg]
#1177829 - 12/29/02 03:43 PM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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>> America does tons of stuff for it's poor: Public housing, welfare, food stamps, medicaid, etc..
A few weeks ago, in Michigan, a low-income apartment building suffered a mass-eviction of all it's tenants, under claims from the police department that the building was nothing but a hub for drug sales and prostitution. It turns out that the building was filled with disabled Vietnam war vets., and other such benign people. Their posessions were hauled away on trucks, and the residents are on the streets. Plans to turn the building into luxury lofts are already under way. I'm sorry, but posting a source for this article would do nothing but drum up arguments against it's credibility. Search around, I'm sure you'll find something about it. It happened in Detroit.
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Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace
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Phred
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Thor]
#1177842 - 12/29/02 03:51 PM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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Thor writes:
Did you know the wealth of the .1% of the US has gone up 150% in the last 30 years...
So what? How has that harmed the poor? Did that top 0.1% take it from them? Were taxes on the poor increased and the proceeds given to the top 0.1%?
Only a few make it while the rest, the vast majority are struggling to make ends meet...
So sorry, but this is simply untrue. A simple majority of the people in the US would be 145 million people. A vast majority would be, what, 170 million or so? There are not even close to 145 million "struggling to make ends meet".
Around 50 million people living in poverty!
Again, simply not true. There are nowhere close to even half that amount living in "poverty" in the US. If you provide us the link that you took that figure from, I'll show you the flawed methodology used to arrive at that bogus figure... IF the site in question has the guts to provide the methodology. Most don't.
In countries like Canada we have a support system that allows people to get back on their feet, in the US welfare is a trap that has been shown to give little hope of people getting out of it.
Welfare is welfare. It traps people in Canada as thoroughly as it traps those in the US. A relative of mine has been on welfare for over twelve years now. He is of sound mind and body, and is perfectly capable of working for himself... he has done so with no difficulty in the past. The thing is, he is lazy and his wants are few. Welfare provides him a decent apartment, enough for food and clothing and medical expenses. His point of view is "Why work? I've got all I need." He has a TV, cable, a phone, a computer, a bus pass, good quality clothing, as much dope as he cares to smoke. He has enough to buy cigarettes at $8.29 Canadian a pack.
What about 50 million people not having healthcare??
Define "healthcare". No one in need of hospitalization in the US can be turned away. That is the law. As Evolving has pointed out here several times in the past, many of those 50 million CHOOSE to go without health plans.
Health care should be a right that all free people enjoy, because while most people can afford to pay into a health care system, those who can't shouldn't be left out.
Socialized medicine is one of the biggest follies of the Twentieth century and you as a Canadian resident should be more aware of that than anyone. Report after report after expensive report has demonstrated that, just in reference to Canada, let alone in England and Europe.
Don't get me started on how healthcare for profit also causes a lot of ethical problems with people's care coming second to the all mighty dollar.
Ethical? Please explain to us how it is ethical for a single healthy male in his twenties to be forced to pay the medical bills for a family in Newfoundland with eight kids?
But enough digression... back to the topic at hand.
Americans as a group are statistically more violent than Canadians as a group, guns or no guns. As Moore himself points out, even if you ignore every single gun fatality in the US, there is still a much higher homicide rate than in almost any other country. Why is that? Moore says it is because there is a climate of fear in the US that isn't there in other countries. That is hogwash. The people who are murdering others aren't people who live in fear that their child will be kidnapped or that their homes will be burglarized or their cars stolen or their daughters raped. It's a statistical fact that most homicide victims are killed by those known to them; family, friends, acquaintances, co-workers. What does "fear" have to do with those murders? Nothing whatsoever.
So WHY is there this violent streak in the American psyche? Some argue it is the glorification of the "bad boys" in American culture; the hero-worship of such miscreants as Bonnie and Clyde, Billy the Kid, etc. fueled by Hollywood and television and pulp novels and Rap music. Others argue it is due to the courts and prison system being too lenient. Others argue it is due to the War on Drugs. In my opinion, all of the above have some validity, and taken together go a long way towards explaining it.
pinky
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Thor
Anti-Theist OVERLORD
Registered: 08/12/98
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Phred]
#1177955 - 12/29/02 04:48 PM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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So what? How has that harmed the poor? Did that top 0.1% take it from them? Were taxes on the poor increased and the proceeds given to the top 0.1%?
No but the reality of the American dream is that much of the wealth of America is in a tiny group of its citizens. Its not much different than its been in the UK for centuries with money staying within that group of the super wealthy. Does it hurt the poor? Thats not easy to say, but my problem is with how their system that allows for such a small proportion of the people to have a large chunk of the wealth to also allow so many people to be living in poverty.
I'm a Democratic Socialist, so I see that the wealth in the US is much like the old Lords and peasants type system in the UK.. Its just with the US the peasants have nice digs and cars..
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So sorry, but this is simply untrue. A simple majority of the people in the US would be 145 million people. A vast majority would be, what, 170 million or so? There are not even close to 145 million "struggling to make ends meet".
So you deny that since the hayday of the middle class in the US, the 50's-60's; that in those days only the father had to work a decent job to pay for all the food, mortgage, car, etc... Now today most parents both have to work because the costs of living continue to grow while the middle class wages have been moving slowly upward...
Its pretty much obvious that the middle class today has to work much more to make ends meet, and in many cases two full time jobs in one household are just barely enough to live off of.
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Again, simply not true. There are nowhere close to even half that amount living in "poverty" in the US. If you provide us the link that you took that figure from, I'll show you the flawed methodology used to arrive at that bogus figure... IF the site in question has the guts to provide the methodology. Most don't.
Sorry 50 million was too high, but here is the facts according to the US Census beuro which obviously has the guts to provide the methodology 
"The Census Bureau said the number of poor Americans rose last year to 32.9 million, an increase of 1.3 million, while the proportion living in poverty rose to 11.7 percent, from 11.3 percent in 2000."
Number of People Living in Poverty Increases in U.S.
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Welfare is welfare. It traps people in Canada as thoroughly as it traps those in the US. A relative of mine has been on welfare for over twelve years now. He is of sound mind and body, and is perfectly capable of working for himself... he has done so with no difficulty in the past. The thing is, he is lazy and his wants are few. Welfare provides him a decent apartment, enough for food and clothing and medical expenses. His point of view is "Why work? I've got all I need." He has a TV, cable, a phone, a computer, a bus pass, good quality clothing, as much dope as he cares to smoke. He has enough to buy cigarettes at $8.29 Canadian a pack.
I don't disagree with you there, however the Canadian system offers a lot more support for those willing to work out of welfare.. There will always be those who don't want to make the effort, but for those who do they have a great deal more resources available to them in Canada then they do in the US..
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Define "healthcare". No one in need of hospitalization in the US can be turned away. That is the law. As Evolving has pointed out here several times in the past, many of those 50 million CHOOSE to go without health plans.
Can't be turned away, of course.. But they have to pay for their expenses right? If a person can't afford a health policy then I doubt they could afford to pay their bills for an emergency that could occur. Am I misunderstanding you here?
They don't choose it? Why is that, do they think that if they get sick that they can afford tens of thousands of dollar health bills?
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Socialized medicine is one of the biggest follies of the Twentieth century and you as a Canadian resident should be more aware of that than anyone. Report after report after expensive report has demonstrated that, just in reference to Canada, let alone in England and Europe.
At its worst our health care system still puts many to shame.. Is it flawed, hell yes.. We need to reform our system and improve upon it.. Don't forget I came from Iceland in which it shares a similar system to Sweden in regards to health care.. Those countries have top notch health care, and yes the citizenry pays for it thanks to higher taxes..
But again this is something I like, because I do care about people living in the street or struggling in some slum.. Anyone who gets sick should have the help available to them, and maybe thats why I most dislike the US way.
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Ethical? Please explain to us how it is ethical for a single healthy male in his twenties to be forced to pay the medical bills for a family in Newfoundland with eight kids?
Because I'm a decent human being. I care about my fellow man, so why is that hard to understand? If you care only about yourself and your family; be damned the rest then its your right.. But I get bothered by lack of empathy for people in need.
I find it sad to see good people suffering when we have so much wealth.
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Americans as a group are statistically more violent than Canadians as a group, guns or no guns. As Moore himself points out, even if you ignore every single gun fatality in the US, there is still a much higher homicide rate than in almost any other country. Why is that? Moore says it is because there is a climate of fear in the US that isn't there in other countries. That is hogwash. The people who are murdering others aren't people who live in fear that their child will be kidnapped or that their homes will be burglarized or their cars stolen or their daughters raped. It's a statistical fact that most homicide victims are killed by those known to them; family, friends, acquaintances, co-workers. What does "fear" have to do with those murders? Nothing whatsoever.
I think you miss that point as well, it isn't anything as simple as fear, its the 'societal attitude' that is fueled with fear and mistrust.. The way the US runs its country for example shows by example that a solution to a problem is often dropping bombs, while most other countries try to solve problems with diplomatic and human means.
Is Moore dead on with his theory, probably not, but does he bring up some excellent points, yes.. The attitude is the thing that seperates the US from all western countries..
I'm sorry but I think fear definately plays a big part of the US.. Everyone locks their homes, watches the TV news showing a new murder, rape, kidnapping.. Daily doses of this, then of course you add CNN 24hr live coverage of a sniper on the loose. You think that doesn't instill fear??
Come on, its obvious that it does.. If you think of your home as a fortress with you gun under your pillow and alarm on the house, doesn't it envoke a shell shock attitude that a sound outside is going to be some criminal coming to kill you?
The attitude in Canada is much different don't you think?
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So WHY is there this violent streak in the American psyche? Some argue it is the glorification of the "bad boys" in American culture; the hero-worship of such miscreants as Bonnie and Clyde, Billy the Kid, etc. fueled by Hollywood and television and pulp novels and Rap music. Others argue it is due to the courts and prison system being too lenient. Others argue it is due to the War on Drugs. In my opinion, all of the above have some validity, and taken together go a long way towards explaining it.
I do agree to a point, but really I think the major factor is the media and how it plays to the fear of the country..
I mean if the past dictated the future then why isn't Germany a country that allowed the death of over 6 million jews is full of murders today?
I do agree though its not a simple answer like 'fear' 'media' etc. Its obvious however that in the US the attitude of the nation is very much the thing that causes such high murder rates as compared to other western nations.
Edited by Thor (12/29/02 04:55 PM)
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Ellis Dee
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Thor]
#1177976 - 12/29/02 05:09 PM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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Posted by Thor:
Are Canadians not free? British? German? Australians? Swedes? We all share freedom as a common theme, but our form of society is what is different.
The British, Germans, and Australians are not free. Canadians are free, for now. Americans are quickly throwing away their freedom as your people are, trading it for the illusion of saftey. Your central government is registering all firearms as we converse here. Within a few years they will be confiscated. You and your countrymen will lose your freedom as did the British, Australians, and Germans. It is ludicrous to think that a free man must ask permission to bear arms or possess the means to defend his life, land, and family.
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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
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Thor
Anti-Theist OVERLORD
Registered: 08/12/98
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Ellis Dee]
#1177981 - 12/29/02 05:13 PM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Quote:
Posted by Thor:
Are Canadians not free? British? German? Australians? Swedes? We all share freedom as a common theme, but our form of society is what is different.
The British, Germans, and Australians are not free. Canadians are free, for now. Americans are quickly throwing away their freedom as your people are, trading it for the illusion of saftey. Your central government is registering all firearms as we converse here. Within a few years they will be confiscated. You and your countrymen will lose your freedom as did the British, Australians, and Germans. It is ludicrous to think that a free man must ask permission to bear arms or possess the means to defend his life, land, and family.
But you define freedom as a right to own a gun, not me.
Canada will not ban firearms, this is a gun loving nation of hunters..
Why do you define freedom by the right to own a gun?
Also yes America is losing their real freedoms thanks to guess what, fear of terrorism... The patriot act is a real gem of taking away a US citizen's rights.
Why aren't you all fighting this?
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Skikid16
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Thor]
#1177995 - 12/29/02 05:22 PM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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Why aren't you all fighting this?
Its too scary to dissent these days.
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Re-Defeat Bush in '04
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Thor
Anti-Theist OVERLORD
Registered: 08/12/98
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Skikid16]
#1177999 - 12/29/02 05:24 PM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
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Why aren't you all fighting this?
Its too scary to dissent these days.
Very true, under the Patriot act simply protesting for whatever reason is enough for them to investigate you.
When I read the patriot act I was litterally shocked at how much power it gives to the government and law enforcement.
But American media doesn't cover this? Why are all these intelligent Americans not furious?
The only reason I can guess is that they accept it, thinking that removing freedoms from them will make them safer from terrorism (gotta love fear if you are a polititian).
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Ellis Dee
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Thor]
#1178056 - 12/29/02 05:47 PM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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>>>>Canada will not ban firearms, this is a gun loving nation of hunters..
Look at the UK. Every regulation, every safe storage law, every extra bit of record keeping, registraton is nothing but a precurser to confiscation. Look at the UK, take a good hard look and tell me if you see history repeating itself in Canada now!
>>>>Why do you define freedom by the right to own a gun?
The right to bear arms ensures all the other rights. The rights to assemble, worship, protest, distribute literature, and not have a police state is nill withoutout a strong right arm to stick up. If you look at all the subjegated people throughout history they have somthing in common. They were weak and incapable or unwilling to adaquatly defend themselves and their land. It's no coincidence.
>>>>Why aren't you all fighting this?
The USA PATRIOT Act was a real gem... If freedom is a tall building the PATRIOT Act is like a wrecking ball in the side of it. These homeland security laws are destroying America's freedom. I don't consent to it. I haven't consented to the Federal Gov for several years. I specifically remember when I silently withdrew my consent from the Government was in May 2000.
Unfortunatly too many people are more concerned with having temporary saftey that they don't realize what they're purchasing with their freedom is an illusion, just a pipe dream. Thousands of men gave their lives for me to have freedom and I will in no ways give it over to any central government except over my dead body. If they want my arms they'll take out of my cold dead hands. I'm serious I'll have to be dead to give up me freedom, I'll give up the ghost before my freedom, I'll fight to keep it, as thousands of men have before me.
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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
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Thor
Anti-Theist OVERLORD
Registered: 08/12/98
Posts: 10,017
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Ellis Dee]
#1178177 - 12/29/02 06:33 PM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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Look at the UK. Every regulation, every safe storage law, every extra bit of record keeping, registraton is nothing but a precurser to confiscation. Look at the UK, take a good hard look and tell me if you see history repeating itself in Canada now!
I will definately do just that, honestly if that is the road we are heading down; there is still time for us to stop it right?
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The right to bear arms ensures all the other rights. The rights to assemble, worship, protest, distribute literature, and not have a police state is nill withoutout a strong right arm to stick up. If you look at all the subjegated people throughout history they have somthing in common. They were weak and incapable or unwilling to adaquatly defend themselves and their land. It's no coincidence.
I ususally believe that if you ignore history that it will repeat itself. But I honestly don't see the US or Canada turning into police state's or dictatorships.
I don't see the need for guns to protect myself from the government, I leave my defense of my rights to my mind and the power of democracy to protect what I cherish.
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The USA PATRIOT Act was a real gem... If freedom is a tall building the PATRIOT Act is like a wrecking ball in the side of it. These homeland security laws are destroying America's freedom. I don't consent to it. I haven't consented to the Federal Gov for several years. I specifically remember when I silently withdrew my consent from the Government was in May 2000.
Unfortunatly too many people are more concerned with having temporary saftey that they don't realize what they're purchasing with their freedom is an illusion, just a pipe dream. Thousands of men gave their lives for me to have freedom and I will in no ways give it over to any central government except over my dead body. If they want my arms they'll take out of my cold dead hands. I'm serious I'll have to be dead to give up me freedom, I'll give up the ghost before my freedom, I'll fight to keep it, as thousands of men have before me.
We can agree on this 100%, its very sad to see a great nation like the US see a law passed like the patriot act.. Shows just how ignorant the masses can be in a modern country.. If it can happen there, it can happen anywhere.
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Phred
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Thor]
#1178193 - 12/29/02 06:40 PM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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Thor writes:
Its pretty much obvious that the middle class today has to work much more to make ends meet, and in many cases two full time jobs in one household are just barely enough to live off of.
Not according to the Census Bureau data you linked. The MEDIAN household income (not the average, mind you... the median) is now $42,228. That means that the majority of US households make more than $42,227 annually. I have a hard time calling that "struggling to make ends meet."
Can't be turned away, of course.. But they have to pay for their expenses right? If a person can't afford a health policy then I doubt they could afford to pay their bills for an emergency that could occur. Am I misunderstanding you here?
If they can pay, the hospital has the right to try to collect for treatment. If they can't, the hospital is shit out of luck. Evolving provided links to the specific legislation that covers this point a while back.
They don't choose it? Why is that, do they think that if they get sick that they can afford tens of thousands of dollar health bills?
Why do people not get insurance on their houses or apartments? Why do people not buy life insurance? Because they are taking the calculated risk that the amount they will need to pay to cover loss in the event of a burglary or a fire will be less than the cost of paying the insurance premiums. And, statistically speaking, that is a safe bet. If it were not the case, insurance companies would rapidly go bankrupt. Note that this is true only STATISTICALLY -- if you get hit by a bus and shatter eight bones and rupture your spleen tomorrow, then you are better off with good medical insurance.
But again this is something I like, because I do care about people living in the street or struggling in some slum...
As do I. I have no problem with contributing to the United Way or to handing money directly to those in need. I do have a problem with being taxed to pay for bums like the relative I mentioned, or to cover the costs of an emergency room visit by some chucklehead with the sniffles. "Compassion" at the point of a gun is not compassion at all.
Because I'm a decent human being. I care about my fellow man, so why is that hard to understand? If you care only about yourself and your family; be damned the rest then its your right.. But I get bothered by lack of empathy for people in need.
See above. You can't legislate empathy. As a matter of fact, there is a statistical correlation between how much money governments spend on social programs and the level of private donations to charities.
Everyone locks their homes...
You Canadians don't lock yours? I sure did when I was living in Canada.
You think that doesn't instill fear??
It doesn't instill fear, it provides a reality check. Let's face it, there are predators out there. Even if it does instill "fear", my point is that it is not the fearful who are killing people, it is the predators; those who have no fear of their victims and in most cases no real fear of the judicial system either.
If you think of your home as a fortress with you gun under your pillow and alarm on the house, doesn't it envoke a shell shock attitude that a sound outside is going to be some criminal coming to kill you?
How many homicides and violent crimes are committed by people who live as you describe? One per cent, tops? I repeat, it is not the fearful who rack up the big numbers in the area of crimes against persons.
I mean if the past dictated the future then why isn't Germany a country that allowed the death of over 6 million jews is full of murders today?
Germany doesn't glorify the excesses of Nazi Germany in film and print. They are ashamed of it.
pinky
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Thor
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Phred]
#1178262 - 12/29/02 07:10 PM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Not according to the Census Bureau data you linked. The MEDIAN household income (not the average, mind you... the median) is now $42,228. That means that the majority of US households make more than $42,227 annually. I have a hard time calling that "struggling to make ends meet."
Compare that household income to what it costs for an average family to live in the middle class bracket.. I'll try to dig up some numbers later, but even though that sounds like a decent amount of money; the problem is still that it isn't exactly living comfortably..
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If they can pay, the hospital has the right to try to collect for treatment. If they can't, the hospital is shit out of luck. Evolving provided links to the specific legislation that covers this point a while back.
Hmmm, well I'll search for that and read more about it. It still is the situation that if you have no health care coverage and end up needing an operation then yeah whatever money you may have or property you may own will be gone. Add another person into the indigent catagory.
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Why do people not get insurance on their houses or apartments? Why do people not buy life insurance? Because they are taking the calculated risk that the amount they will need to pay to cover loss in the event of a burglary or a fire will be less than the cost of paying the insurance premiums. And, statistically speaking, that is a safe bet. If it were not the case, insurance companies would rapidly go bankrupt. Note that this is true only STATISTICALLY -- if you get hit by a bus and shatter eight bones and rupture your spleen tomorrow, then you are better off with good medical insurance.
Well I'd think most people who don't pay for health insurance in the US can't afford it. Of course there are those who take the risk, but I doubt anyone would sleep well knowing an illness could cost them their home, etc...
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As do I. I have no problem with contributing to the United Way or to handing money directly to those in need. I do have a problem with being taxed to pay for bums like the relative I mentioned, or to cover the costs of an emergency room visit by some chucklehead with the sniffles. "Compassion" at the point of a gun is not compassion at all.
Have you ever done any volunteer work for soup kitchens, etc?? You'll find most people fit into the catagory of down on their luck.. The bums you speak of who'm could care less about trying anymore are often mentally handicapped, or have a alcohol/drug problems.. The rest are people just trying to get back on their feet.
If a few bums get our support while most of the good people get support as well; then I'm happy to do it. If we left the generosity of humans to be the only source of charity in a society where greed is king; well there would be a lot more homeless people.
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See above. You can't legislate empathy. As a matter of fact, there is a statistical correlation between how much money governments spend on social programs and the level of private donations to charities.
So are you suggesting we remove the social net the government provides? Rely on charities only?
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You Canadians don't lock yours? I sure did when I was living in Canada.
I'm Icelandic But yeah I lock my door, mostly because I treat it like a seatbelt, even though the odds are I'm not going to have to worry about break-ins, I still do it cause why not?
But I don't worry about crime in my neighbourhood, it rarely crosses my mind because its just so unlikely to happen to me.
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It doesn't instill fear, it provides a reality check. Let's face it, there are predators out there. Even if it does instill "fear", my point is that it is not the fearful who are killing people, it is the predators; those who have no fear of their victims and in most cases no real fear of the judicial system either.
I don't agree, criminology would say that its often fear, rage, hate, revenge that causes most violent crime.. Crimes of passion are the common ones, crimes where the criminal is devoid of passion are the ones the FBI ends up dealing with. Those who have no fear of the victims or consequences are often the people we see committ serial crimes..
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How many homicides and violent crimes are committed by people who live as you describe? One per cent, tops? I repeat, it is not the fearful who rack up the big numbers in the area of crimes against persons.
1 percent? I doubt that highly, most murders are committed by people you know, so that leans towards crimes committed by hate, anger, jealousy, revenge, etc.. Fear definately contributes to that atmosphere..
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Germany doesn't glorify the excesses of Nazi Germany in film and print. They are ashamed of it.
Yeah but we are speaking of a violent past in a country like the US affecting attitudes today.. Well any country you can bring up has a violent past..
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Ellis Dee
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Thor]
#1178280 - 12/29/02 07:20 PM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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I'm a Democratic Socialist, so I see that the wealth in the US is much like the old Lords and peasants type system in the UK.. Its just with the US the peasants have nice digs and cars..
If someone owns propertyand has nice digs and cars then why would they be called a peasant. I'de call them a citizen.
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Its pretty much obvious that the middle class today has to work much more to make ends meet, and in many cases two full time jobs in one household are just barely enough to live off of.
This is completely true. Since the early 70's if you take inflation in to consideration in to account incomes have dramatically dropped, well over 15%. I think this supply and demand explains this phenonema. Females entered the workforce in masses dumping huge quantities of labor in to the workforce and creating an incredible increase in labor supply while demand hasen't increased as much. Te result is lower pay for all the the necessity for many families to old two jobs. It's definatly debatable but I don't think this would have occured if woman would have stayed at home in traditional families.
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Define "healthcare". No one in need of hospitalization in the US can be turned away. That is the law. As Evolving has pointed out here several times in the past, many of those 50 million CHOOSE to go without health plans.
Lots of people are turned away from health care in the US. You need money or you're out of luck. FOr example I have carpal tunnel. If I didn't have insurance I couldn't go to any hospital ER and have them operate on me. They could care less. If you don't have the money they don't have the time. I however have insurance and I'll wait until summer to have my carpal tunnel fixed, nice to have that option.
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Not according to the Census Bureau data you linked. The MEDIAN household income (not the average, mind you... the median) is now $42,228. That means that the majority of US households make more than $42,227 annually. I have a hard time calling that "struggling to make ends meet."
The key phrase there is household income. That generally denotes more than one working person. This is typically a married couple working for 20K each and it adds up to 40K. This is not a good job. It's struggeling with two people balancing work, family, their kids school, and daycare. It's tough for working people like that to make ends meet. You just don't understand that people are making a lot less today than they were 30 years ago.
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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
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Thor
Anti-Theist OVERLORD
Registered: 08/12/98
Posts: 10,017
Loc: Iceland
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Ellis Dee]
#1178296 - 12/29/02 07:27 PM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
If someone owns propertyand has nice digs and cars then why would they be called a peasant. I'de call them a citizen.
I don't mean literally by definition, I mean to me the names are definitions have changed, but the class structure is still as strong as it ever was.
The peasants or citizen is just much better off now and with more oppertunities.. But the lords/ladies or super wealthy class still thrive in many western worlds where old money continues to grow steadilly.
The rich keep getting richer, and yes at the expense of the poor and middle class.
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Xlea321
Stranger
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Phred]
#1178366 - 12/29/02 08:30 PM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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So what? How has that harmed the poor? Did that top 0.1% take it from them? Were taxes on the poor increased and the proceeds given to the top 0.1%?
Yep. The average taxpayer pays $400 to welfare for the poor and $1400 for corporate welfare.
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Don't worry, B. Caapi
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Thor]
#1178699 - 12/30/02 02:49 AM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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Its pretty much obvious that the middle class today has to work much more to make ends meet, and in many cases two full time jobs in one household are just barely enough to live off of.
The reason that the members of the middle class find themselves having problems
making ends meet, is because most of them live far beyond their means. They are
not like the middle class of yore who had a small house and one car. They have
two or three vehicles(usually SUV's), a TV in every room, a swimming pool, tons
of designer clothes, and mountains of credit card debt. If the people in
America were capable of managing their money better, there would not be
as many people "struggling".
For example, I know someone who earns $7.00 an hour and constantly
complains how it is so hard to make ends meet(he even has to have to his Mom
pay his car insurance for him), and how it is a travesty for the American worker.
Yet, he doesn't admit that he spends at least $300 a month on marijuana, at least
$50 a month on guitar related stuff, at least $50 a month on cable television, and
whenever he gets the slightest amount of money saved up, he blows it on a
new tattoo or a toy of some kind.
I don't disagree with you there, however the Canadian system offers a lot more support for those willing to work out of welfare..
President Clinton reformed welfare during his administration. He said that
people were no longer allowed to live on it for life. And, he instituted
programs designed to help wean people off of welfare. Welfare to work
programs they are called(of course, I have repeatedly heard Micheal Moore
criticize these programs).
There will always be those who don't want to make the effort, but for those who do they have a great deal more resources available to them in Canada then they do in the US..
In America you can get student loans that are interest-free, for post-secondary
education. This is a great resource available to people wishing to improve
their lot in life.
Because I'm a decent human being. I care about my fellow man, so why is that hard to understand? If you care only about yourself and your family; be damned the rest then its your right..
If the have-nots of the world concern you, then by all means do whatever you
wish to help them. But, don't force my hand or my resources to do it.
Come on, its obvious that it does.. If you think of your home as a fortress with you gun under your pillow and alarm on the house, doesn't it envoke a shell shock attitude that a sound outside is going to be some criminal coming to kill you?
Unfortunately, America(and the world for that matter) has a large amount of
people who have no respect for their fellow man's bodies or property. These
people steal and inflict damage upon things. It is not "paranoia" to recognize
the simple fact that people like this do exist, and that it is wise to take precautions
against them.
RandalFlagg
Edited by RandalFlagg (12/30/02 02:52 AM)
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luvdemshrooms
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Xlea321]
#1178778 - 12/30/02 03:25 AM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Yep. The average taxpayer pays $400 to welfare for the poor and $1400 for corporate welfare.
Actually, the lower wage earners in the US pay little to no taxes.
19.3 million claimed the earned income credit.
32.3 BILLION was given out with this credit.
In case you are unaware, the earned income credit is (despite the name) a handout given to lower earning taxpayers who couldn't be bothered to keep it in thier pants. The more kids you have the larger the credit.
Share of the Income Taxes Paid, by Income Earned.
Percent of Federal Individual Income Taxes Paid by High and Low Income Taxpayers, 1979 and 1989
Income Group.....1979.........1989
Highest 5%.........37.6%.......43.6%
Highest 10%.......49.5%.......54.5%
Highest 25%.......73.1%.......76.5%
Highest 50%.......93.2%.......93.9%
Lowest 50%........6.8%.........6.1%
Lowest 25%........0.5%.........0.7%
Source: Information Please Almanac, page 75. (1991)
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Excerpts from the text following the above table in the Information Please almanac:
Top Wage Earners Still Pay Largest Share of Income Tax Bill
The top-earning ten percent of US taxpayers paid nearly 55% of the Federal individual income tax bill in 1989, according to a Tax foundation analysis fo the recently released 1989 IRS tax return data. Despite all the major tax legislation witnessed over the decade of the 1980s, the fraction of income taxes collected for this top ten percent varied only slightly from year to year between 1979 and 1989 but inched steadily up during the decade.... [emphasis added]
Trends in Progressivity
The Federal income tax system has remained progressive. Top earners continue to pay a larger share of tax collections despite the alleged upper-income bias of the tax cuts and rate reductions under ERTA of 1981 and TRA of 1986. [emphasis ours --Web Team One]
Growth in the income base itself has been increasing faster at the upper end of the income scale, resulting in increased income tax receipts from top earners. Naturally, this also results in a higher proportion of the entire population's income being taxed at the highest rate.
The 112 million returns filed for tax year 1989 reported an increase in AGI (adjusted gross income) of $194 billion over 1988. The largest percentage gain was from Individual Retirement Account distributions, up 24.3% from 1988. [emphasis ours --Web Team One] Social Security benefits rose 22.4%, and taxable interest increased 15.5%. Salries and wages, which constituted 71.6% of total positive income for 1989, rose 5.5% over 1988. All told, 1989 total individual income taxes rose $23.3 billion over 1988 for a record $439 billion take.
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How Much More?
Liberals insist that the rich paid less, despite the facts (above) to the contrary. Below is the breakdown of how much more the rich were paying at the end of the 1980s than at the beginning.
Taxpayers earning over $200,000
.............................1980..................1988
Tax rate..................70%..................28%
Number of returns....117,000.............725,000
Dollars paid............$19.5 billion.......$100.3 billion
Percent of income....7.5%.................25.3%
Total taxes.............$250.3 billion.....$412.9 billion
Percent paid by groups
.......................1980.........1988
$0-20K............19.5%.........7.0%
20-50K............49.4%........30.4%
50-200K..........23.6%........38.3%
200K+.............7.5%.........24.3%
Source: Internal Revenue Statistics published in Arkansas Democrat Gazette, Oct 12, 1992.
There you have it. The "evil rich" went from paying less than 8% of the total taxes to paying a quarter of them. For those making $20k and less, the share of taxes fell from 20% to 7%. And that is the true story. If you want a true period of the rich getting richer at the expense of the poor, you have to go back to the Carter years.
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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,248
Loc: Lost In Space
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Here's a link for the 2001 figures.
http://www.cato.org/research/fiscal_policy/2002/factsfigs.html
Pay special attention to this chart.
Share of Federal Taxes Paid by Income Group, 2001 (Includes Individual Income, Payroll, and Excise Taxes)
And this one...
Share of Federal Individual Income Taxes Paid by Income Group, 1999
The top 50% of wage earners pay 96% of Federal income taxes.
The top 1% pay 36% of Federal income tax.
But please.... don't ever let facts stand in the way!!!
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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
Edited by luvdemshrooms (12/30/02 03:43 AM)
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Rono
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Ellis Dee]
#1178871 - 12/30/02 04:28 AM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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I don't see why you people argue constantly over this gun issue. Guns don't make America free! America hasn't been a free country for a long time!
Owning a firearm is a moot point to defending your freedoms. Your freedoms have been taken away with pen strokes not gun shots.
Examples?
Election 2000, Bush didn't get the majority of votes in FL or the popular vote. He became President via the Supreme Court 9 people who were never elected chose your President for you.
The Patriot Act which helps fight "terrorism" limits people's rights more than ever.
So how do guns protect freedoms you no longer have? They're not going to take away your guns! They want you to keep them and indulge the illusion of a free society.
If you really cared about your freedoms and liberty so much you wouldn't be willing to sacrifice it for security.
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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
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Posts: 34,248
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Rono]
#1178932 - 12/30/02 05:02 AM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Election 2000, Bush didn't get the majority of votes in FL or the popular vote. He became President via the Supreme Court 9 people who were never elected chose your President for you.
You're smart enough to know better.
All the court did was enforce the rules that were in existance for years. They did not appoint anyone. Merely repeating that lie does not make it so.
I do agree the"Patriot Act" sucks.
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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
Edited by luvdemshrooms (12/30/02 05:03 AM)
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Rono
DSYSB since '01
Registered: 01/25/01
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Although we may have different opinions on that "election"...you can't deny that it was controversial.
The point of the gun issue remains the same...nobody is gaining or losing freedom because of guns...it's because of policies and pen strokes. What good is the ability to own a firearm, if they can throw you in jail at anytime for speaking out against the government?
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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,248
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Rono]
#1178995 - 12/30/02 05:33 AM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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Yes it was controversial. However it was so because people tried to change the rules in the middle of the game merely because they weren't happy with the direction of the election.
All recounts after the fact (with the possible difference of one) upheld the Bush victory. Most interesting is the fact that the recount the Gore team specifically requested also showed Bush as the victor.
The ability to own a firearm becomes important when and if the government gets out of hand. Laugh if you will at that but I think if it came down to it, many Americans, including a lot of the armed forces would rise up and take action. I know I would. Now, while some of the recent laws passed should not have been, I believe the courts will overturn many provisions in them. And I don't believe the government will start carting people away willy-nilly. God help them if they do.
As for throwing people in jail for speaking, perhaps you weren't aware of this....
Clinton Rejects Freedom of Speech!
In the summer of 1996 Glenn and Patricia Mendoza attended A Taste of Chicago, in Chicago, Illinois. An event which President Clinton was also attending. Mrs. Mendoza allegedly yelled, "You suck! And those boys died." Referring to the earlier incident in Dhahran, Saudi Arabia, in which an explosion was set off, probably by a terrorist, killing 19 servicemen. Mrs. Mendoza believed Mr. Clinton was somehow at fault for the explosion, explaining her comments. Some feel that Bill Clinton caused or contributed to the cause of these murders, though I'm not sure how.
At any rate, 15 minutes after Clinton departed the event, Mrs. Mendoza was arrested for her comments. "You might need a lawyer!" her husband Glenn shouted, then found himself in cuffs as well.
Now, if you feel that perhaps Mrs. Mendoza shouldn't have used the term, "You suck!" then try this one on for size. In 1993, William Kelly of Chicago was arrested for shouting to Clinton asking where was the middle class tax cut. Such intolerable uses of FREE speech got these people thrown in jail! What happened to the laws? What happened to the First Amendment regarding FREE SPEECH!?
It seems to me that Mr. Clinton is selective on who he has arrested and who he doesn't because when an AIDS activist yelled about his not doing enough for the disease, Clinton defended the heckler citing his duty to listen to criticism. Hummm, that's a new one for you huh? Situations such as this tend to make me wonder what other categories Mr. Clinton is selective on.
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Worthy of arrest?
I think not.
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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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Xlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
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But please.... don't ever let facts stand in the way!!!
If you ever state a fact I'll take it into account. Ludicrous and meaningless statistics are not facts. Please try and comprehend this.
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Don't worry, B. Caapi
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,248
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Xlea321]
#1179040 - 12/30/02 05:58 AM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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Coming from you thats as funny as it gets.
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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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Xlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
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I now realise why 99.9% of your posts are childish insults. When you try and be serious you are truly laughable.
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Don't worry, B. Caapi
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Rono
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Loc: Calgary, Alberta
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Xlea321]
#1179076 - 12/30/02 06:15 AM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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Obviously you both have differing views on things...but for the sake of the rest of us, could you both please keep your petty insults to yourselves? PM eachother if you need to, but the rest of us shouldn't be subjected to it....this isn't OTD and there's a new Sheriff in town...
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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"
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Skikid16
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Rono]
#1179088 - 12/30/02 06:19 AM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
this isn't OTD and there's a new Sheriff in town...
Bout damn time.
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Re-Defeat Bush in '04
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Xlea321
Stranger
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Posts: 9,134
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Rono]
#1179199 - 12/30/02 06:58 AM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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No problem
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Don't worry, B. Caapi
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Phred
Fred's son
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Thor]
#1179705 - 12/30/02 10:10 AM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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I will say again that a lot of this doesn't have anything to do with the topic of this thread, "Bowling for Columbine", so I will respond to the welfare issues in the thread "Canada and Welfare".
On to the rest.
Thor writes:
But yeah I lock my door, mostly because I treat it like a seatbelt, even though the odds are I'm not going to have to worry about break-ins, I still do it cause why not?
Then why do you think that Americans lock their doors for a different reason?
But I don't worry about crime in my neighbourhood, it rarely crosses my mind because its just so unlikely to happen to me.
I am pleased at your good fortune. There are other neighborhoods where this is not the case. I lived in a neighborhood in Ottawa in the early Seventies where break-and-enter crime was rampant. There were six apartments on the floor where I lived. In the two years I was there, five out of the six were burglarized. Two were burglarized three times. Mine wasn't, but only because there were three of us living there, with at least one of us almost always home. My two room mates dealt dope out of the apartment, so we had excellent (and I mean EXCELLENT) locks. Even so, I had my car broken into three times.
... its often fear, rage, hate, revenge that causes most violent crime.
Rage, hate, and revenge are not the same as "fear".
Those who have no fear of the victims or consequences are often the people we see committ serial crimes.
That's exactly my point. Someone who shoots an intruder out of fear does so exactly once. The predators do it over and over again until they are caught. Once they are released from prison, they take up where they left off.
...most murders are committed by people you know, so that leans towards crimes committed by hate, anger, jealousy, revenge, etc.
I repeat: hate, anger, jealousy and revenge are not the same as "fear". Fear is what you described earlier, somebody sleeping with a gun under the pillow.
Fear definately contributes to that atmosphere.
I shoot a guy because I hate the way he treated my daughter. What has that got to do with fear? I have no fear of him whatsoever -- I simply hate his guts.
I shoot a guy because I am angry at him for firing me from my job. What has that got to do with fear? I have no fear of him at all; he's a little shrimpy jerk. But I'm furious at him for derailing my career.
I shoot a guy because I am jealous of him for stealing my girlfriend. What has that got to do with fear? I am not afraid of him -- he's a wimp and I'm a biker -- I'm just blinded by jealousy.
I shoot a guy to get revenge over him cheating me on a business deal. Fear has nothing to do with it. The guy is a short, fat, bald accountant with glasses as thick as coke bottle bottoms -- how could I possibly be afraid of him? I am however, determined to extract vengence for his behavior.
Yeah but we are speaking of a violent past in a country like the US affecting attitudes today.. Well any country you can bring up has a violent past..
Re-read my comment. The difference is that America revels in its violent past. The American entertainment industry glorifies America's criminals, Germany vilifies theirs.
Okay, now head on over to the "Canada and Welfare" thread for my responses to your other points.
pinky
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Xlea321
Stranger
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Phred]
#1180483 - 12/30/02 06:01 PM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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Jealousy over girlfriends is about fear. Fear of being unwanted, fear of not finding another woman etc. Most of the other things you mention are about fear too.
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Don't worry, B. Caapi
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silversoul7
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 Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: Xlea321]
#1180498 - 12/30/02 06:10 PM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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What I think it comes down to is the media sensationalism inspires fear, and fear inspires people to get handguns, which they keep loaded and in close reach, in case there's an intruder or something. Then, one day a fight breaks out and it gets ugly, and in a rage they grab the loaded gun. This is different than the way a hunter would keep his hunting rifle. A hunter would most likely keep his hunting rifle in the closet and his ammo in a drawer, so if he was going to shoot someone it would take more time and therefore he'd have more time to think about it before doing something irrational.
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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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Ellis Dee
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Re: Bowling for Columbine [Re: silversoul7]
#1180600 - 12/30/02 06:58 PM (22 years, 4 months ago) |
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silversoul7, there's no reason not to be armed at home. I keep a loaded revolver next to my bed and a shotgun under it. there are several million burglaries every year and as the old boy scout that I am my motto is "Be Prepared". It's better to have a gun handy and not need it then to need it and not have it. Also, if someone knocks on my door at 3 AM I will have a loaded gun in my waist and peek out. If necessary I would use the gun in protection and retreat to my bedroom for the 12 guage.
BTW, as I type this I have a loaded Ruger .45 within two feet of me in easy reach.
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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Edited by Ellis Dee (12/30/02 07:01 PM)
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