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Offlinelaserpig
Weedmaster_P

Registered: 04/28/09
Posts: 7,468
Last seen: 11 years, 10 months
Our "habitat" is constantly saturated w/ radio & EM signals ... how can that be harmless?
    #10636208 - 07/07/09 02:28 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

First off, this is not some UFO nut "government brain signals" gibberish. I'm not suggesting that anyone is doing anything malicious, and I'm not claiming certainty about anything. I am curious what you've got to think about an idea I found interesting.
My thinking is basically this:

We know that moving electric charges produce electromagnetic currents (or whatever you'd like to call them) -- currents which create, induce, and interact with magnetic fields, radio/electromagnetic signals, ionic charges, etcetera. Moving electric charges are a fundamental process of our nervous systems. Our nervous systems, our brains, our "thoughts," produce EM signals detectable by such instruments as EEG and MEG. Current research shows that strong magnetic pulses can, in at least some cases, be used as an effective treatment for depression -- which is to say, the research shows that thinking and behavior can at least potentially be fundamentally altered by exposure to electromagnetic signals.

Just yesterday, a friend and I were working on a small hobby electronics project (making a simple analog oscillator circuit) and we were amused to discover that in some configurations we picked up the radio station ... I believe it was KCBS ... even clearer than our own signal. To me, this was a pretty striking reminder of just how strongly radio signals are present in our everyday environment. From 3/4 meter ham radio at 540 MHz all the way down through 540 kHz AM radio, we're constantly immersed in an electromagnetic field with an essentially chaotic signal. Individual signals are decipherable to receiving equipment because said equipment is very finely tuned to a particular frequency ... but if we could "hear" any of this it would be pure noise, because so many different signals are being sent on frequencies so close together.

You may be thinking: "Hold up there dude, brain waves are only 38 Hz and below. That's nowhere near radio frequencies." And in terms of delta, theta, alpha, beta, gamma brain waves (you know, the only ones that anyone actually calls "brain waves"), you'd be right. Radio frequencies are about ten thousand times higher than the frequencies of these brain waves. However, power lines (an extremely powerful EM source because of the amount of current they carry and the fact that they're AC) produce signals in the 50 to 60 Hz range -- not even 50% higher than gamma waves.

This is where I apply some conjecture: doesn't it seem probable that there are finer, higher-frequency signals in your brain, beyond just those listed above? By "finer" I mean of higher frequency, lesser power, and greater complexity (you know, not just basic sine waves).  Neurons are signal carriers, and neural pathways are essentially complex signal circuits. The lowest-frequency signals which permeate the brain are the delta, theta, etc, but if those were the only signals of significance then well, we'd all be in comas, wouldn't we?

If these finer signals exist (which I think is an entirely reasonable assumption) it would be kind of ridiculous to believe they'd be impervious to the effects of electromagnetic fields. Our skulls are not Faraday cages. It seems to me that we need to honestly consider the possibility that our use of electromagnetic waves is having completely un-investigated effects on our brains, and therefore our mental health.

I don't like the idea of my thinking being made static-y or getting thrown out of tune. To me, that sounds similar to what's happening in kids with ADD, people with OCD, and schizophrenics. Zen monks and other masters of mental health advise cultivating a "more peaceful, harmonious mind" -- to me, this introduction of static sounds like the opposite. (Yes, I do believe zen monks and similarly "peaceful" people are of significantly better mental health than the rest of us.)

Thoughts?


--------------------
Weedmaster P knows the truth.

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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Our "habitat" is constantly saturated w/ radio & EM signals ... how can that be harmless? [Re: laserpig]
    #10636251 - 07/07/09 02:35 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Remember we evolved while being saturated with EM waves.  The amount we make compared to the sun is virtually naught, although we make different frequencies.  Im would assume this has been studied by biologists.  Have you looked into the literature?

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InvisibleMiddlemanM

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
Re: Our [Re: laserpig]
    #10636367 - 07/07/09 02:58 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

If you are going to ask these kind of questions you'd better get used to wading through a whole lot of crack-pottery to find solid evidence.

Phil Callahan's work is very interesting.

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Offlinezouden
Neuroscientist
Male User Gallery


Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 14 years, 5 months
Re: Our [Re: laserpig]
    #10636827 - 07/07/09 04:07 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Current research shows that strong magnetic pulses can, in at least some cases, be used as an effective treatment for depression -- which is to say, the research shows that thinking and behavior can at least potentially be fundamentally altered by exposure to electromagnetic signals.



Yes, it's quite a fascinating field! It's called transcranial magnetic stimulation. We have one at work, but I haven't used it.

It needs a very strong magnetic field - millions of times stronger than what you'd experience from a radio transmitter. Anything less and you don't get neuron depolarisation. So while it's possible that EM waves can affect our brain, there's not really any good evidence, and the existence of TMS can't be used as evidence either.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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OfflineKickleM
Wanderer
 User Gallery


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,953
Last seen: 2 days, 18 hours
Re: Our [Re: zouden]
    #10636844 - 07/07/09 04:12 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

:eek:
I had no idea.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Offlinezouden
Neuroscientist
Male User Gallery


Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 14 years, 5 months
Re: Our [Re: Kickle]
    #10636908 - 07/07/09 04:27 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Here's a video demonstrating it, if you're interested.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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OfflineKickleM
Wanderer
 User Gallery


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,953
Last seen: 2 days, 18 hours
Re: Our [Re: zouden]
    #10636960 - 07/07/09 04:38 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Kind of unnerving to be honest, stimulating some motor responses and all that.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Offlinezouden
Neuroscientist
Male User Gallery


Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 14 years, 5 months
Re: Our [Re: Kickle]
    #10637066 - 07/07/09 04:54 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Yeah I know. It'd be really exciting for my research if they could get the field to penetrate further into the brain, to places like the hippocampus and the amygdala. So far I think it's limited to surface structures like the cortex, but I bet that's improving :awesome:


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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OfflineKickleM
Wanderer
 User Gallery


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,953
Last seen: 2 days, 18 hours
Re: Our [Re: zouden]
    #10637153 - 07/07/09 05:11 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

They should make a 'bloopers' real of when they activate embarrassing areas.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Our [Re: Middleman]
    #10637737 - 07/07/09 07:12 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Middleman said:
If you are going to ask these kind of questions you'd better get used to wading through a whole lot of crack-pottery to find solid evidence.





:eek: I dont believe my eyes!

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InvisibleTibetan
California Raisin

Registered: 07/04/09
Posts: 100
Re: Our "habitat" is constantly saturated w/ radio & EM signals ... how can that be harmless? [Re: laserpig]
    #10637843 - 07/07/09 07:30 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Isn't there some fairly solid research about living near power lines causing cancer.

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InvisibleArden
לנשום

Registered: 09/01/08
Posts: 7,666
Loc: Α & Ω Flag
Re: Our "habitat" is constantly saturated w/ radio & EM signals ... how can that be harmless? [Re: Tibetan]
    #10638516 - 07/07/09 09:11 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

If these finer signals exist (which I think is an entirely reasonable assumption) it would be kind of ridiculous to believe they'd be impervious to the effects of electromagnetic fields. Our skulls are not Faraday cages. It seems to me that we need to honestly consider the possibility that our use of electromagnetic waves is having completely un-investigated effects on our brains, and therefore our mental health.




I would say they are not completely impervious to electromagnetic fields, there may be some interaction. But if the appropriate conditions are met for the signals to influence each other, would the change in signal currency or direction result in an output? Meaning, does the physiological change have any immediate effect on neural activity or consciousness?

It is important to remember how weak these signals are that we are talking about here. "The electric potentials generated by single neurons are far too small to be picked by EEG or MEG" [wiki]. The skull is a huge barrier, it makes neuroimaging very difficult--requiring extremely sensitive machinery in isolated rooms (to prevent detection artifacts).

So essentially what we "see" arising from neural activity is a huge summation, an average of those fields which must be constantly filtered in mathematical ways to reduce errors and to arrive to meaningful conclusions.

----------------------

This reminded me of a quote:

"I now think of the brain as a receiver of the phenomenon of
consciousness, i don't believe that consciousness is generated in the
brain anymore than television programs are made inside my TV. The box is
too small." - Terence McKenna

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Invisibleblewmeanie
I'm a teapot User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 28,984
Loc: Flag
Re: Our "habitat" is constantly saturated w/ radio & EM signals ... how can that be harmless? [Re: Tibetan]
    #10638569 - 07/07/09 09:19 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Tibetan said:
Isn't there some fairly solid research about living near power lines causing cancer.



Well if there is then it should be easy enough to find and source....right?


--------------------
The Prophecy!

Learn To Code

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InvisibleArden
לנשום

Registered: 09/01/08
Posts: 7,666
Loc: Α & Ω Flag
Re: Our "habitat" is constantly saturated w/ radio & EM signals ... how can that be harmless? [Re: blewmeanie]
    #10638679 - 07/07/09 09:34 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Power Lines and Cancer:
Nothing to Fear
John W. Farley, Ph.D.

http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/emf.html

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Our "habitat" is constantly saturated w/ radio & EM signals ... how can that be harmless? [Re: laserpig]
    #10640929 - 07/08/09 09:52 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

laserpig said:
First off, this is not some UFO nut "government brain signals" gibberish. I'm not suggesting that anyone is doing anything malicious, and I'm not claiming certainty about anything. I am curious what you've got to think about an idea I found interesting.
My thinking is basically this:

We know that moving electric charges produce electromagnetic currents (or whatever you'd like to call them) -- currents which create, induce, and interact with magnetic fields, radio/electromagnetic signals, ionic charges, etcetera. Moving electric charges are a fundamental process of our nervous systems. Our nervous systems, our brains, our "thoughts," produce EM signals detectable by such instruments as EEG and MEG. Current research shows that strong magnetic pulses can, in at least some cases, be used as an effective treatment for depression -- which is to say, the research shows that thinking and behavior can at least potentially be fundamentally altered by exposure to electromagnetic signals.

Just yesterday, a friend and I were working on a small hobby electronics project (making a simple analog oscillator circuit) and we were amused to discover that in some configurations we picked up the radio station ... I believe it was KCBS ... even clearer than our own signal. To me, this was a pretty striking reminder of just how strongly radio signals are present in our everyday environment. From 3/4 meter ham radio at 540 MHz all the way down through 540 kHz AM radio, we're constantly immersed in an electromagnetic field with an essentially chaotic signal. Individual signals are decipherable to receiving equipment because said equipment is very finely tuned to a particular frequency ... but if we could "hear" any of this it would be pure noise, because so many different signals are being sent on frequencies so close together.

You may be thinking: "Hold up there dude, brain waves are only 38 Hz and below. That's nowhere near radio frequencies." And in terms of delta, theta, alpha, beta, gamma brain waves (you know, the only ones that anyone actually calls "brain waves"), you'd be right. Radio frequencies are about ten thousand times higher than the frequencies of these brain waves. However, power lines (an extremely powerful EM source because of the amount of current they carry and the fact that they're AC) produce signals in the 50 to 60 Hz range -- not even 50% higher than gamma waves.

This is where I apply some conjecture: doesn't it seem probable that there are finer, higher-frequency signals in your brain, beyond just those listed above? By "finer" I mean of higher frequency, lesser power, and greater complexity (you know, not just basic sine waves).  Neurons are signal carriers, and neural pathways are essentially complex signal circuits. The lowest-frequency signals which permeate the brain are the delta, theta, etc, but if those were the only signals of significance then well, we'd all be in comas, wouldn't we?

If these finer signals exist (which I think is an entirely reasonable assumption) it would be kind of ridiculous to believe they'd be impervious to the effects of electromagnetic fields. Our skulls are not Faraday cages. It seems to me that we need to honestly consider the possibility that our use of electromagnetic waves is having completely un-investigated effects on our brains, and therefore our mental health.

I don't like the idea of my thinking being made static-y or getting thrown out of tune. To me, that sounds similar to what's happening in kids with ADD, people with OCD, and schizophrenics. Zen monks and other masters of mental health advise cultivating a "more peaceful, harmonious mind" -- to me, this introduction of static sounds like the opposite. (Yes, I do believe zen monks and similarly "peaceful" people are of significantly better mental health than the rest of us.)

Thoughts?





I have a tin foil hat that I will trade for spore prints.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineDiaboleros
Devil's spawn


Registered: 07/20/08
Posts: 1,856
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
Re: Our "habitat" is constantly saturated w/ radio & EM signals ... how can that be harmless? [Re: laserpig]
    #10641070 - 07/08/09 10:19 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

You'd think all those EM signals would be harmful for the health, but then again, doesn't everything in existence work with EM signals? Everything is electricty, (electrons runnings through it), and all electricity is accompanied by a magnetic field.    My guess is that the bodies of the people are getting weak out of lazyness and being spoiled, and that is maybe why they get cancer and all those deseases easier. If this wasn't the case, everyone would get cancer, but only a select group does.

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Our "habitat" is constantly saturated w/ radio & EM signals ... how can that be harmless? [Re: Diaboleros]
    #10641161 - 07/08/09 10:41 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

cancer = stress, lack of exercise, rotten food, obesity, pollution, modern medicine.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleUnbearable_B
Strangerer


Registered: 02/04/09
Posts: 689
Re: Our "habitat" is constantly saturated w/ radio & EM signals ... how can that be harmless? [Re: Icelander]
    #10641532 - 07/08/09 12:01 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

ALL OF THOSE RADIO WAVES ETC HAVE BEEN THERE SINCE THE DAWN OF TIME

/end thread

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InvisibleMiddlemanM

Registered: 07/11/99
Posts: 8,399
Re: Our "habitat" is constantly saturated w/ radio & EM signals ... how can that be harmless? [Re: Unbearable_B]
    #10641641 - 07/08/09 12:23 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

:frylock:

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Invisiblesterbeklang
w/e
Male


Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 824
Loc: Filthy Rock
Re: Our "habitat" is constantly saturated w/ radio & EM signals ... how can that be harmless? [Re: Middleman]
    #10641828 - 07/08/09 01:04 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Middleman said:
:frylock:




LOL, what is the Frylock about?  I dun git eet.  :confused:


--------------------

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OfflineC.M. Mann
subconscious explorer
Male


Registered: 05/01/08
Posts: 899
Loc: Florida
Last seen: 12 years, 11 months
Re: Our "habitat" is constantly saturated w/ radio & EM signals ... how can that be harmless? [Re: sterbeklang]
    #10642132 - 07/08/09 02:17 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

MeatWad gets the honey's:bigblunt:

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
Re: Our "habitat" is constantly saturated w/ radio & EM signals ... how can that be harmless? [Re: laserpig]
    #10642199 - 07/08/09 02:31 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

First off, this is not some UFO nut "government brain signals" gibberish.




Damn! Where is the fun in a sensical thread? :mad:


--------------------

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