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Offlineveda_sticks
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Re: Pros and Cons of casing with verm and coir?? [Re: Cyber]
    #10632103 - 07/06/09 07:06 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Cyber said:
Quote:

hyphae said:
Quote:

G1assjaw said:
So Hyphae, You do not agree with Citric?? Claims it works.



Coco/verm works but it is not a casing mix apparently those who claim it is should look up the definition. Coco coir/verm does work but for other reasons it is an extremely fast colonizer so when using it as a moisture rich nutrient layer you'll want to throw it in the FC almost immediately to get your pinset timing right on the balls (tits on). A casing layer is much easier to get the timing right.




I have used a 50/50 Coir/Verm casing layer for years. It works fine. I still do not believe that coir has enough nutrients to amount to anything. My Side my Sides have proven that to me. Mycelium can colonize just about anything and fruit from the food store, where ever it happens to be in the substrate. Like roots of a tree pulling the needed nutrients or water from a distance away.

Sorry, I just dont buy the idea that coir has a lot of nutrients in it. I have posted my tests and asked other to repeat them and post there output as well.

So, lets see

No Nutrients Link 1
OSU.edu Link 2  "Although it has little nutrient value, it's a good soil amendment."

In gardening it is used in place of peat and in hydroponics it is used in place of rock wool.




what about the  people that can get upto 6 flushes from straight coir?> no food eh?


--------------------

PF TEK - writeup by EvilMushroom666
Lets Grow Mushrooms - RogerRabbit & RoadKills website with sample videos plus the full PF TEK video series. Alot of great information - BUY THE DVD
Cakes can and will pin! - So you think cakes suck for pins. Your wrong
Franks Simple Coir/Verm Tek
Franks Proper Pasturisation Tek
Franks Spawning To Bulk - Monotub
Professor Pinheads RTV Injection Port Tek
Foo Mans No Soak WBS Prep Tek

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InvisibleCitric
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Re: Pros and Cons of casing with verm and coir?? [Re: hyphae]
    #10632119 - 07/06/09 07:10 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

hyphae said:
Quote:

Cyber said:
Quote:

hyphae said:
Quote:

G1assjaw said:
So Hyphae, You do not agree with Citric?? Claims it works.



Coco/verm works but it is not a casing mix apparently those who claim it is should look up the definition. Coco coir/verm does work but for other reasons it is an extremely fast colonizer so when using it as a moisture rich nutrient layer you'll want to throw it in the FC almost immediately to get your pinset timing right on the balls (tits on). A casing layer is much easier to get the timing right.




I have used a 50/50 Coir/Verm casing layer for years. It works fine. I still do not believe that coir has enough nutrients to amount to anything. My Side my Sides have proven that to me. Mycelium can colonize just about anything and fruit from the food store, where ever it happens to be in the substrate. Like roots of a tree pulling the needed nutrients or water from a distance away.

Sorry, I just dont buy the idea that coir has a lot of nutrients in it. I have posted my tests and asked other to repeat them and post there output as well.

So, lets see

No Nutrients Link 1
OSU.edu Link 2  "Although it has little nutrient value, it's a good soil amendment."

In gardening it is used in place of peat and in hydroponics it is used in place of rock wool.



OK I don't know how to explain it any better sorry but I'll try for the sake of others. Myc COLONIZES coir it has ENOUGH nutrients I've looked at many studies! Understand from a gardeners point of view it is pretty much void of nutrients! This is so simple I can't for the life of understand why the argument? A casing the myc does not colonize it IT GROWS THROUGH IT! This is so frustrating sometimes! Remember a closed mind will never grow.




Coir has nutes, yes that is for sure.  However it is far from rich in nutes.  It works and has been used for a casing layer for years, long before it was ever used as a substrate.  That is for a reason, it works.

Now, it may not be ideal specially for newer growers who tend to run into overlay and contam problems to begin with.  But if you know what you're doing, I find coir very good as a casing layer, specially when it comes down to time.

The myc eats right through the coir, and I have always got great pin sets.  It is also very good at retaining moisture and creating the micro-climate that we aim for.


--------------------
Self Healing lid tek ** Update 10.17.17 **
Mini casing pictures: Pins to harvest
Cup O' Shrooms
Magash:  I noticed my contams were in the shape of fingers :whack:
Hyphae:  Yes  "Loss of moisture from the substrate"  is not a casing trigger.  :cuckoo:

My final Grow!

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OfflineCyber
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Re: Pros and Cons of casing with verm and coir?? [Re: veda_sticks]
    #10632160 - 07/06/09 07:18 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

veda_sticks said:
what about the  people that can get upto 6 flushes from straight coir?> no food eh?




Hmmm, So far everyone that I have seen try "Straight Coir" where they have gotten good flushes has spawned it with WBS or rye or my favorite, "It is a straight coir grow, Just coir and coffee grounds", There is the food source.

Now Take 1x 1/2 pint BRF Cake and use it to spawn 4L of coir and do a monotub. If you get a great flush Ill believe you!

Just check my link earlier, I have tested it and measured the outputs. Coir sounds great but it is very lackluster.

Show me some one who has gotten this from pure coir


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Offlinehyphae
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Re: Pros and Cons of casing with verm and coir?? [Re: Citric]
    #10632166 - 07/06/09 07:19 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Citric said:
Coir has nutes, yes that is for sure.  However it is far from rich in nutes.  It works and has been used for a casing layer for years, long before it was ever used as a substrate.  That is for a reason, it works.

Now, it may not be ideal specially for newer growers who tend to run into overlay and contam problems to begin with.  But if you know what you're doing, I find coir very good as a casing layer, specially when it comes down to time.

The myc eats right through the coir, and I have always got great pin sets.  It is also very good at retaining moisture and creating the micro-climate that we aim for.



Of course it's used and works great but not as a casing because it is not a casing. I pity the one who started calling it casing. All I can do is shake my head in disbelief Citric you cannot see what it is I'm trying to convey? Casing= coir


--------------------
Getting the most out of your casings!, A pinning strategy.
Oyster Shell "Flour" $2 for 1lb. a hell of a deal :wink:
Not what is overlay but rather what overlay is
Gas Exchange vs. FAE

"We all have priorities. I used a closet once setup a nice little lab trouble was all the shit that was in there ended up in the bedroom that pissed off the GF then I ended up dumping her as she was getting in the way of my sterile culture technique! Ya I got priorities too!!!"

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Re: Pros and Cons of casing with verm and coir?? [Re: Cyber]
    #10632167 - 07/06/09 07:19 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

That's beautiful! *-*


--------------------
"To feel today what one felt yesterday isn't to feel - it's to remember today what was felt yesterday, to be today's living corpse of what yesterday was lived and lost." Fernando Pessoa

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OfflineCyber
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Re: Pros and Cons of casing with verm and coir?? [Re: hyphae]
    #10632209 - 07/06/09 07:25 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

hyphae said:
OK I don't know how to explain it any better sorry but I'll try for the sake of others. Myc COLONIZES coir it has ENOUGH nutrients I've looked at many studies! Understand from a gardeners point of view it is pretty much void of nutrients! This is so simple I can't for the life of understand why the argument? A casing the myc does not colonize it IT GROWS THROUGH IT! This is so frustrating sometimes! Remember a closed mind will never grow.




So you are saying, when you use coir it colonizes the casing layer and does not grow Through the casing layer?

So with coir it should not do this?



:shrug:

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Re: Pros and Cons of casing with verm and coir?? [Re: hyphae]
    #10632212 - 07/06/09 07:25 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

hyphae said:
Quote:

Citric said:
Coir has nutes, yes that is for sure.  However it is far from rich in nutes.  It works and has been used for a casing layer for years, long before it was ever used as a substrate.  That is for a reason, it works.

Now, it may not be ideal specially for newer growers who tend to run into overlay and contam problems to begin with.  But if you know what you're doing, I find coir very good as a casing layer, specially when it comes down to time.

The myc eats right through the coir, and I have always got great pin sets.  It is also very good at retaining moisture and creating the micro-climate that we aim for.



Of course it's used and works great but not as a casing because it is not a casing. I pity the one who started calling it casing. All I can do is shake my head in disbelief Citric you cannot see what it is I'm trying to convey? Casing= coir




I understand what you are trying to say =)

You are stating coir is not a casing because it contains nutes, and a casing by definition is a non nutritious layer of material.

Well, by definition, yes you are 100% correct.  However coir has been, can be, and is used as a casing layer by many past and present.

Maybe we could just call it a mini-spawn, since cubes do not even need a casing layer to begin with.  But how people do apply in this situation(Providing the micro-climate) is exactly like a normal casing.  *shrug*


--------------------
Self Healing lid tek ** Update 10.17.17 **
Mini casing pictures: Pins to harvest
Cup O' Shrooms
Magash:  I noticed my contams were in the shape of fingers :whack:
Hyphae:  Yes  "Loss of moisture from the substrate"  is not a casing trigger.  :cuckoo:

My final Grow!

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InvisibleJean-Luc Picard
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Re: Pros and Cons of casing with verm and coir?? [Re: Citric]
    #10632234 - 07/06/09 07:31 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Then its not a casing...you are just throwing on more bulk material...I have fruited without a casing and gotten pretty good results...which is i guess what you are doing except i just throw in my bulk substrate once and then let it colonize and pop in the FC



hope this helps
agmotes165


--------------------
The universe is under no obligation to make sense to you - NDT

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Offlinehyphae
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Re: Pros and Cons of casing with verm and coir?? [Re: Citric]
    #10632237 - 07/06/09 07:32 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Citric said:
Quote:

hyphae said:
Quote:

Citric said:
Coir has nutes, yes that is for sure.  However it is far from rich in nutes.  It works and has been used for a casing layer for years, long before it was ever used as a substrate.  That is for a reason, it works.

Now, it may not be ideal specially for newer growers who tend to run into overlay and contam problems to begin with.  But if you know what you're doing, I find coir very good as a casing layer, specially when it comes down to time.

The myc eats right through the coir, and I have always got great pin sets.  It is also very good at retaining moisture and creating the micro-climate that we aim for.



Of course it's used and works great but not as a casing because it is not a casing. I pity the one who started calling it casing. All I can do is shake my head in disbelief Citric you cannot see what it is I'm trying to convey? Casing= coir




I understand what you are trying to say =)

You are stating coir is not a casing because it contains nutes, and a casing by definition is a non nutritious layer of material.

Well, by definition, yes you are 100% correct.  However coir has been, can be, and is used as a casing layer by many past and present.

Maybe we could just call it a mini-spawn, since cubes do not even need a casing layer to begin with.  But how people do apply in this situation(Providing the micro-climate) is exactly like a normal casing.  *shrug*



It is not considered a casing plain and simple can't make it any easier than that.


--------------------
Getting the most out of your casings!, A pinning strategy.
Oyster Shell "Flour" $2 for 1lb. a hell of a deal :wink:
Not what is overlay but rather what overlay is
Gas Exchange vs. FAE

"We all have priorities. I used a closet once setup a nice little lab trouble was all the shit that was in there ended up in the bedroom that pissed off the GF then I ended up dumping her as she was getting in the way of my sterile culture technique! Ya I got priorities too!!!"

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Offlinehyphae
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Re: Pros and Cons of casing with verm and coir?? [Re: Cyber]
    #10632246 - 07/06/09 07:34 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Cyber said:
Quote:

hyphae said:
OK I don't know how to explain it any better sorry but I'll try for the sake of others. Myc COLONIZES coir it has ENOUGH nutrients I've looked at many studies! Understand from a gardeners point of view it is pretty much void of nutrients! This is so simple I can't for the life of understand why the argument? A casing the myc does not colonize it IT GROWS THROUGH IT! This is so frustrating sometimes! Remember a closed mind will never grow.




So you are saying, when you use coir it colonizes the casing layer and does not grow Through the casing layer?

So with coir it should not do this?



:shrug:



Oh my! Myc colonizes coir because it is a substrate. Period


--------------------
Getting the most out of your casings!, A pinning strategy.
Oyster Shell "Flour" $2 for 1lb. a hell of a deal :wink:
Not what is overlay but rather what overlay is
Gas Exchange vs. FAE

"We all have priorities. I used a closet once setup a nice little lab trouble was all the shit that was in there ended up in the bedroom that pissed off the GF then I ended up dumping her as she was getting in the way of my sterile culture technique! Ya I got priorities too!!!"

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OfflineG1assjaw
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Re: Pros and Cons of casing with verm and coir?? [Re: Jean-Luc Picard]
    #10632249 - 07/06/09 07:35 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

agmotes165 said:
Then its not a casing...you are just throwing on more bulk material...I have fruited without a casing and gotten pretty good results...which is i guess what you are doing except i just throw in my bulk substrate once and then let it colonize and pop in the FC



hope this helps
agmotes165




What type of substrate do you usually go with??

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Re: Pros and Cons of casing with verm and coir?? [Re: G1assjaw]
    #10632277 - 07/06/09 07:41 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

And as far as casing with coir. I guess its not technically casing. But as long is it works you could say you just throw some shit on top there.
What Im saying is if it works call it what you want  :rockon:

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InvisibleJean-Luc Picard
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Re: Pros and Cons of casing with verm and coir?? [Re: G1assjaw]
    #10632301 - 07/06/09 07:49 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

well i think that since its a nutrient layer anyway...just go with coir/verm/coffee bulk substrate and dont case...let it fully colonize and just fruit it straight up...

but yea....its watever you wanna do...


--------------------
The universe is under no obligation to make sense to you - NDT

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OfflineCyber
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Re: Pros and Cons of casing with verm and coir?? [Re: hyphae]
    #10632341 - 07/06/09 08:01 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

hyphae said:
Quote:

Cyber said:
Quote:

hyphae said:
OK I don't know how to explain it any better sorry but I'll try for the sake of others. Myc COLONIZES coir it has ENOUGH nutrients I've looked at many studies! Understand from a gardeners point of view it is pretty much void of nutrients! This is so simple I can't for the life of understand why the argument? A casing the myc does not colonize it IT GROWS THROUGH IT! This is so frustrating sometimes! Remember a closed mind will never grow.




So you are saying, when you use coir it colonizes the casing layer and does not grow Through the casing layer?

So with coir it should not do this?



:shrug:



Oh my! Myc colonizes coir because it is a substrate. Period




Mycilia will colonize Vermiculite so it must be a substrate.



Mycilia will colonize paper so it too must be a substrate. (Yes that is RR's picture)



The point is that the mycilia of the Ps. Cubensis mushroom will colonize into just about anything like the roots of a tree. The bible works because it was filled with rye grain spawn which is the energy source. The mycilia just grew through the paper, just like it grows through the Vermiculite using the BRF or the WBS as the energy source and through the coir using the Cow poo, WBS, rye, or what ever else was added.

Weather or not mycilia colonize the casing layer has more to do with conditions than anything else. If the RH is above 85% in the fruiting chamber it will colonize the casing layer and fruit, if it is below about 85% it will fruit through the casing layer






Edited by Cyber (07/06/09 08:03 PM)

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Offlinehyphae
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Re: Pros and Cons of casing with verm and coir?? [Re: Cyber]
    #10632382 - 07/06/09 08:10 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Cyber said:
Quote:

hyphae said:
Quote:

Cyber said:
Quote:

hyphae said:
OK I don't know how to explain it any better sorry but I'll try for the sake of others. Myc COLONIZES coir it has ENOUGH nutrients I've looked at many studies! Understand from a gardeners point of view it is pretty much void of nutrients! This is so simple I can't for the life of understand why the argument? A casing the myc does not colonize it IT GROWS THROUGH IT! This is so frustrating sometimes! Remember a closed mind will never grow.




So you are saying, when you use coir it colonizes the casing layer and does not grow Through the casing layer?

So with coir it should not do this?



:shrug:



Oh my! Myc colonizes coir because it is a substrate. Period




Mycilia will colonize Vermiculite so it must be a substrate.



Mycilia will colonize paper so it too must be a substrate. (Yes that is RR's picture)



The point is that the mycilia of the Ps. Cubensis mushroom will colonize into just about anything like the roots of a tree. The bible works because it was filled with rye grain spawn which is the energy source. The mycilia just grew through the paper, just like it grows through the Vermiculite using the BRF or the WBS as the energy source and through the coir using the Cow poo, WBS, rye, or what ever else was added.

Weather or not mycilia colonize the casing layer has more to do with conditions than anything else. If the RH is above 85% in the fruiting chamber it will colonize the casing layer and fruit, if it is below about 85% it will fruit through the casing layer









Brother that first pic is BRF! Wood lovers will colonize anything cellulose. This thread is getting close to being locked! Now lets get back to the pros and cons of adding verm with coir please, Thank you


--------------------
Getting the most out of your casings!, A pinning strategy.
Oyster Shell "Flour" $2 for 1lb. a hell of a deal :wink:
Not what is overlay but rather what overlay is
Gas Exchange vs. FAE

"We all have priorities. I used a closet once setup a nice little lab trouble was all the shit that was in there ended up in the bedroom that pissed off the GF then I ended up dumping her as she was getting in the way of my sterile culture technique! Ya I got priorities too!!!"

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Re: Pros and Cons of casing with verm and coir?? [Re: hyphae]
    #10632583 - 07/06/09 08:51 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

hyphae said:

Brother that first pic is BRF! Wood lovers will colonize anything cellulose.




I did say that it was BRF but it is colonizing the vermiculite by using the BRF as the food source, in the post, and the bible is Cubensis not a wood lover.

Back to the point.

50/50 verm/coir

Pros
Allows for lower RH in the fruiting chamber. (Cakes and uncased substrates need a 90%+ RH, Cased needs 80% RH and can go lower depending on the casing)
Appears to provide more even pinning.
Appears to provide better flushes from observations and some limited testing.

Cons
It is not for beginners!
Can lead to contamination if not done right.
Can lead to arguments such as:
Some people will insist that it is a substrate and argue with you saying things like, it is nutrient rich.
Other will argue and say that a casing layer does not improve yield, and does not make a difference.

The problems with asking about pros and cons of casing with a given set of materials is you will get a lot of different answers. Everyone has there own way of doing it and as you can see there are some hotly debated points. RR will argue that Vermiculite contains nutrients. Some people will argue that coir contains nutrients.  Although I have not seen it argued, I am willing to bet that some one will say that peat contains nutrients. From there the argument builds

The point of a casing layer is to create a microclimate that is favorable to mushroom pinning and fruiting. If you plan to fruit at high RH then there is no need to put in the extra work for something that is not going to be used. It would also appear that the mushrooms know and colonize the casing layer if the RH is too high, this can lead to overlay. If you plan on using lower RH and letting the casing do what it is supposed to then you will not be disappointed.

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Offlinehyphae
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Re: Pros and Cons of casing with verm and coir?? [Re: Cyber]
    #10634259 - 07/07/09 05:17 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Cyber said:
Quote:

hyphae said:

Brother that first pic is BRF! Wood lovers will colonize anything cellulose.




I did say that it was BRF but it is colonizing the vermiculite by using the BRF as the food source, in the post, and the bible is Cubensis not a wood lover.





Verm is not a substrate. And I can read the bible was spawned with rye.
Saying verm contains nutes is the same as saying perlite contains nutes. They both contain elements. Just like everything in this world.
Consider coir/verm a top dressing to improve a non-cased substrates performance.


--------------------
Getting the most out of your casings!, A pinning strategy.
Oyster Shell "Flour" $2 for 1lb. a hell of a deal :wink:
Not what is overlay but rather what overlay is
Gas Exchange vs. FAE

"We all have priorities. I used a closet once setup a nice little lab trouble was all the shit that was in there ended up in the bedroom that pissed off the GF then I ended up dumping her as she was getting in the way of my sterile culture technique! Ya I got priorities too!!!"

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Re: Pros and Cons of casing with verm and coir?? [Re: hyphae]
    #10634374 - 07/07/09 06:25 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

hyphae said:
Verm is not a substrate. And I can read the bible was spawned with rye.





The second picture of a cd spindle was just WBS with verm added to it.
Point being?
Quote:


Saying verm contains nutes is the same as saying perlite contains nutes. They both contain elements. Just like everything in this world.





I agree there but RR will not, he is convinced that verm has some nutrient value that mushrooms eat.
Have we tried fruiting directly off verm? (verm only)
Quote:


Consider coir/verm a top dressing to improve a non-cased substrates performance.




Seems to fit the definition of a casing

Casing: The act or process of enclosing in, or covering with, a case or thin substance.

Where did the idea come from that a casing layer had to be inert?
I've always went off of Stamets definition (nutrient poor).
In commercial Agaricus bisporus production the casing layer is typically dirt. Dirt has nutrient value but is still called a casing layer.
Agaricus have a symbiotic relationship with certain micro organisms yes.

"Nutrient poor compared to the substrate" I've been away for quite some time and coir does seem to fall into that category. My only problem with that is coir does have substantial nutrients compared to peat/verm and beginners may find more failure than success. There has been many good points made in this thread I may have to take a closer look.

Edited by hyphae (07/07/09 06:52 AM)

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Offlinehyphae
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Re: Pros and Cons of casing with verm and coir?? [Re: Cyber]
    #10634415 - 07/07/09 06:54 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Sorry Cyber didn't mean to edit your post! I'm seeing what your saying and need to reconsider.


--------------------
Getting the most out of your casings!, A pinning strategy.
Oyster Shell "Flour" $2 for 1lb. a hell of a deal :wink:
Not what is overlay but rather what overlay is
Gas Exchange vs. FAE

"We all have priorities. I used a closet once setup a nice little lab trouble was all the shit that was in there ended up in the bedroom that pissed off the GF then I ended up dumping her as she was getting in the way of my sterile culture technique! Ya I got priorities too!!!"

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