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methoxy
Hi, I'm Methoxy.


Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 197
Last seen: 6 years, 20 days
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Police stealing phone number data from your PDA - Fruit of the poisonous tree?
#10622974 - 07/05/09 12:11 AM (14 years, 10 months ago) |
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Ok, hypothetical situation..
You are stopped, police frisk you or whatever, you have a california 4th waiver (which only allows the search of your person and your living quarters, not digital effects) some how you accidently leave your cellphone with them, or they didnt give it back to you intentionally, some how they ended up with it - and they stole certain phone numbers from your cellphone without your consent in their investigation to find a drug dealer that was reported having involvement with you.. you suspect afterward they may have stolen data from your PDA (by legal definition - a personal computer, a small computer system, with a processor and memory) but dont think much of it till later when you hear the news that the dealer was busted, and that particular dealer suspects you lead to his arrest somehow.. say they also tracked you down for the purpose of stealing this PDA's data via the cell phone tracking grid prior to the search event as well...
any surveilance set apon said number would be fruit of the poisonous tree correct? because they stole the phone number illegally from your PDA without consent to search? and any crime the dealer was caught doing while under the ILLEGAL SURVEILANCE with would be dismissed in court right?
Fruit of the Poisonous tree is a legal doctrine, basically says if whatever resulted in the discovery of the evidence was illegal, then then evidence is "poisonous" and is inadmissable in court. In this case, the police investigator illegally stole phone number data from a personal computer device (a "PDA") and initiated surveillance/wiretapping to attempt to catch the dealer in illegal activity. any evidence discovered as a result of this illegal surveillance would be 'fruit of the poisonous tree' is that correct?
-------------------- But Jimi was feeling good - he'd shared some LSD with a friend, Herbert Worthington, who sat and watched him from the side: 'Jimi started singing "Spanish Castle Magic" and I was high, I was so happy, probably one of the happiest times of my life, being with an Angel [Jimi] and having a woman on each arm. I just went into an LSD laugh.' Jimi looked over to Herbert, realised that he too was peaking out on acid, tried to say something to Herbie, but it wouldn't come out. - Jimi Hendrix "Electric Gypsy"
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Alan Rockefeller
Mycologist


Registered: 03/10/07
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Re: Police stealing phone number data from your PDA - Fruit of the poisonous tree? [Re: methoxy]
#10623518 - 07/05/09 04:53 AM (14 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
any evidence discovered as a result of this illegal surveillance would be 'fruit of the poisonous tree' is that correct?
Maybe.
Did they have probable cause for the search? Did they arrest you?
The outcome depends a lot on how they wrote the report.
Your side sounds kind of paranoid - did they really track down your cell phone, find you and search you? I am not saying thats impossible, but I have never heard of a drug bust happening like that.
It may be hard to find some real answers until your dealer hires a lawyer and files a motion for discovery. And when you get that information, you might not like what it says.
Perhaps it will say that they tracked you down and violated your rights. But that is not likely.
Were there incriminating text messages between you and your dealer on the device?
Did your dealer get set up in a CI buy?
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JT



Registered: 02/28/07
Posts: 7,027
Loc: athens
Last seen: 4 years, 10 months
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Re: Police stealing phone number data from your PDA - Fruit of the poisonous tree? [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
#10623667 - 07/05/09 06:55 AM (14 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Alan Rockefeller said:
Quote:
any evidence discovered as a result of this illegal surveillance would be 'fruit of the poisonous tree' is that correct?
Were there incriminating text messages between you and your dealer on the device?
Did your dealer get set up in a CI buy?
those are very important questions.
i really doubt the cops would need your pda to get the dealer's phone number, unless he was really high up. did he use a prepaid phone or go through a normal cell phone plan? most cell phone companies will disclose information on their clients (such as phone numbers, gps info, etc) if there is a warrant, so idk why they'd go after you and risk an illegal search and seizure when they could get his number through "legitimate" means.
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gompers
The Gimp



Registered: 07/31/08
Posts: 186
Loc: East Coast
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Re: Police stealing phone number data from your PDA - Fruit of the poisonous tree? [Re: methoxy]
#10623781 - 07/05/09 08:26 AM (14 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
methoxy said: Ok, hypothetical situation..
You are stopped, police frisk you or whatever,
Uhhh what?
Please give us a scenario to work with instead of "or whatever"
Fruit of the poisonous tree makes evidence inadmissible in court if it was obtained through illegal means.
However, if the police can prove that they would have LEGALLY found that evidence anyway, than it is admissible. (For instance if you told them that you murdered someone and stashed the body in the mountains with the murder weapon in a non-miranda custodial interview, ie: arrested and questioned w/o rights, than they would have to prove that they would have discovered that body/gun legally otherwise (hard to do), because they illegally obtained that information/confession, making the body and murder weapon inadmissible pieces of evidence)
-------------------- chris606 said: some 1 told me to try long brown rice and water and vermiculite and pressure cook for 1 hour i did but nothing happen that is y was wonting to no if i need spores
Edited by gompers (07/05/09 08:28 AM)
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johnm214



Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: Police stealing phone number data from your PDA - Fruit of the poisonous tree? [Re: gompers]
#10623800 - 07/05/09 08:33 AM (14 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
gompers said:
Quote:
methoxy said: Ok, hypothetical situation..
You are stopped, police frisk you or whatever,
Uhhh what?
Please give us a scenario to work with instead of "or whatever"
Fruit of the poisonous tree makes evidence inadmissible in court if it was obtained through illegal means.
makes SOME evidence inadmissable if it was obtained through unconstitutional search and seizure
---
anyways, OP, WTF is a "california 4th waiver"?
When posting in this forum, its best to give facts rather than conclusory statements. Your claim that whatever this waiver is only allows certain searches seems strange, and I'm willing to bet that's incorrect, but in any case, please just give the facts.
Additionally, what did you say or consent to? Just cuz they searched you pursuant to some "waiver" (whatever that is) doesn't mean they may not enlarge the scope of the search on other grounds provided they have the authority to do so- like Alan suggests.
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methoxy
Hi, I'm Methoxy.


Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 197
Last seen: 6 years, 20 days
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Re: Police stealing phone number data from your PDA - Fruit of the poisonous tree? [Re: johnm214]
#10624224 - 07/05/09 11:04 AM (14 years, 10 months ago) |
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a 4th waiver is what they stick u with in california if you are on probation or informal probation. you are forced to sign into an agreement saying you can be searched any time anywhere without reason but it only covers your room quarters or common areas and any storage facilities owned by you. not computers or anything to that effect. and yeah perhaps someone is being paranoid about this. i did read they can trace you on the cellular grid.
-------------------- But Jimi was feeling good - he'd shared some LSD with a friend, Herbert Worthington, who sat and watched him from the side: 'Jimi started singing "Spanish Castle Magic" and I was high, I was so happy, probably one of the happiest times of my life, being with an Angel [Jimi] and having a woman on each arm. I just went into an LSD laugh.' Jimi looked over to Herbert, realised that he too was peaking out on acid, tried to say something to Herbie, but it wouldn't come out. - Jimi Hendrix "Electric Gypsy"
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johnm214



Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: Police stealing phone number data from your PDA - Fruit of the poisonous tree? [Re: methoxy]
#10624294 - 07/05/09 11:22 AM (14 years, 10 months ago) |
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Ok, so this is a good example of why I said you shouldn't use conclusory language, especially in regards to legal situations, when asking a question in this forum. Just state the situation in objective facts, and let people answer the question- you can give your own opinion as well, but we need the facts.
You were incorrect regarding probation terms. In california you may waive your 4th amendemnt rights so that you may recieve probation. If you have done so, you may be searched, and so may your things. You don't have to consent, but then the court doesn't have to give you probation, and if you refuse they'll probably just throw your ass in jail.
They can search your home, so I'm quite sure they can search your things, including your phone, which has far less protection.
What authority do you have for your original proposition that such searches may not investigate the things you mention?
Quote:
In California, a person may validly consent in advance to warrantless searches and seizures in exchange for the opportunity to avoid serving a state prison term. Warrantless searches are justified in the probation context because they aid in deterring further offenses by the probationer and in monitoring compliance with the terms of probation
People v. Robles (2000) 23 Cal.4th 789 , 97 Cal.Rptr.2d 914; 3 P.3d 311 (internal cites removed)
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methoxy
Hi, I'm Methoxy.


Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 197
Last seen: 6 years, 20 days
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Re: Police stealing phone number data from your PDA - Fruit of the poisonous tree? [Re: johnm214]
#10625059 - 07/05/09 02:17 PM (14 years, 10 months ago) |
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the contract said room and storage only , not digital effects, correspondence, etc. a computer system is a completely seperate entity under laws of the US. unless specifically described in the search terms, it cannot be searched without consent of it's owner. a PDA is considered a personal computer.
-------------------- But Jimi was feeling good - he'd shared some LSD with a friend, Herbert Worthington, who sat and watched him from the side: 'Jimi started singing "Spanish Castle Magic" and I was high, I was so happy, probably one of the happiest times of my life, being with an Angel [Jimi] and having a woman on each arm. I just went into an LSD laugh.' Jimi looked over to Herbert, realised that he too was peaking out on acid, tried to say something to Herbie, but it wouldn't come out. - Jimi Hendrix "Electric Gypsy"
Edited by methoxy (07/05/09 02:22 PM)
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johnm214



Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: Police stealing phone number data from your PDA - Fruit of the poisonous tree? [Re: methoxy]
#10625138 - 07/05/09 02:38 PM (14 years, 10 months ago) |
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The agreement said it was exclusive of other items or you're saying it only mentioned certain items?
So your saying they weren't allowed to search your person but were allowed to search your room?
So if they came to search you you could put your crack in your pants and your safe?
What exactly did it say you were agreeing to in regards to searches, please, if at all different than what you've said above?
And a computer is a seperate entity from what? And what laws make it such? FYI, the laws of the US generally don't affect these issues.
In any case, if this really happened you need to be detailed about why they searched you, what the situation was, any reason they may suspect you of anything, and if your on probation for drugs.
Honestly, if you left a phone with the police, they can claim they didn't know whos it was and were looking for info in it. Them writing down a numer is not a seizure per the 4th amendment. They can also claim it was abandoned property, which has no 4th amendment protection. Under what circumstances was it left with them and what effort was made to retrieve it and when?
Anyways, if you are concerned with probation violations, you really have no recourse that I'm aware of. You have no ability to use the fourth amendment to exclude this evidence from a probation revocation hearing, and they could send you to jail just fine if they needed to. (stonehenge claims otherwise but as usual I cited the supreme court and he cited his running mouth)
You could get the evidence excluded from a seperate criminal trial, but it honestly sounds to me like that's not going to happen. Just hit us up with the exact terms of the probation or whatever and any infromation showing if they had any cause.
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