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OfflineVisionary Tools
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The lords prayer has changed quite a bit
    #10620882 - 07/04/09 01:00 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Read this on some site. I like the longer one. It seems far more pertinent.

Quote:


The Lords Prayer translated from Aramaic into English, rather than from Aramaic to Greek to Latin to English

O cosmic Birther of all radiance and vibration!
Soften the ground of our being and
carve out a space within us where
Your Presence can abide.
Fill us with your creativity so that we
may be empowered to bear the fruit
of your mission.
Let each of our actions bear fruit in
accordance with our desire.
Endow us with the wisdom to produce
and share what each being needs to grow and flourish.
Untie the tangled threads of destiny that
bind us, as we release others from the
entanglement of past mistakes.
Do not let us be seduced by that which would
divert us from our true purpose, but illuminate
the opportunities of the present moment.
For you are the round and the fruitful vision,
the birth-power and fulfillment,
as all is gathered and made whole once again.


<<< more words




The Lord's Prayer in Late Modern English,
Book of Common Prayer, 1928

Our Father, who art in heaven,
hallowed be thy Name.
Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done,
on Earth as it is in Heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our trespasses,
as we forgive those who trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation,
But deliver us from evil.
For thine is the kingdom, and the power,
and the glory, for ever and ever. Amen.




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Offlinehidenseek
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Re: The lords prayer has changed quite a bit [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #10620993 - 07/04/09 01:21 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

i might practice religion if i got to say stuff like that


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: The lords prayer has changed quite a bit [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #10621052 - 07/04/09 01:32 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Sounds lovely, but how could they translate directly from Aramaic?  The New Testament was written in Greek, so they would have to translate from Greek to Aramaic to English.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: The lords prayer has changed quite a bit [Re: Silversoul]
    #10621068 - 07/04/09 01:35 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

I too have questions on the authenticity.


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: The lords prayer has changed quite a bit [Re: Kickle]
    #10621111 - 07/04/09 01:40 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

I found this blog from an Aramaic translator debunking such New Age interpretations.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: The lords prayer has changed quite a bit [Re: Silversoul]
    #10621212 - 07/04/09 01:59 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

:yesnod:


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineVisionary Tools
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Re: The lords prayer has changed quite a bit [Re: Kickle]
    #10622567 - 07/04/09 09:46 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

I don't care how accurate it is. For all I know the council of nicaea edited out all the dragons, unicorns and dinosaurs Jesus was pals with. Helping people out of the tangle of their past mistakes is fucking fantastic.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: The lords prayer has changed quite a bit [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #10623047 - 07/05/09 12:33 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Visionary Tools said:
I don't care how accurate it is.




Oh, ok. I thought you were trying to pawn it off as authentic.




Quote:

Visionary Tools said: Helping people out of the tangle of their past mistakes is fucking fantastic.




What? Who's tangle are you referring to, and what past mistakes? We all make mistakes, and yes, while it is nice to have someone help us out when we need it, I'm not sure what this has to do with an altered version of a prayer. Any chance you could clarify that a bit?


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: The lords prayer has changed quite a bit [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #10623385 - 07/05/09 02:49 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Nice interpretation :heart:


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Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Offlinejonathanseagull
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Re: The lords prayer has changed quite a bit [Re: Kickle]
    #10623737 - 07/05/09 07:59 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Quote:

Visionary Tools said:
Helping people out of the tangle of their past mistakes is fucking fantastic.




What? Who's tangle are you referring to, and what past mistakes? We all make mistakes, and yes, while it is nice to have someone help us out when we need it, I'm not sure what this has to do with an altered version of a prayer. Any chance you could clarify that a bit?





Quoted from the "new" translation:
Untie the tangled threads of destiny that
bind us, as we release others from the
entanglement of past mistakes.


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Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.


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Invisiblec0sm0nautt
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Re: The lords prayer has changed quite a bit [Re: jonathanseagull]
    #10625892 - 07/05/09 05:07 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Sounds like the "New Age" translation to me. It resonates a lot better than the fire and brimstone.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: The lords prayer has changed quite a bit [Re: jonathanseagull]
    #10626323 - 07/05/09 06:30 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

:cheers:


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Invisibleblewmeanie
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Re: The lords prayer has changed quite a bit [Re: Kickle]
    #10626344 - 07/05/09 06:34 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

I read something a few years ago suggesting that the "lords prayer" was the cumulative creation of multiple translations piling on top of each other. Basically it got bigger and bigger with every scribe that translated it, and the only original part may have been the words "our father". :lol:

I wish I could remember where I read that.:crazy2:


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OfflineMr.Al
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Re: The lords prayer has changed quite a bit [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #10626515 - 07/05/09 07:19 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Fucking Romans interfered with the message.

Jesus was not socially acceptable.

The people who frequent churches would probably not like him.

A lot of the stuff he said was really far out.

The stuff written by his apostles was mostly garbage, but that is what you hear at church.

Anyway, I just wanted to be in this thread so I can read that again.......


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Invisiblesterbeklang
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Re: The lords prayer has changed quite a bit [Re: Mr.Al]
    #10626769 - 07/05/09 08:19 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

I'm going to hold out for more info, but it would be wonderful if it were true.  I kinda have a feeling that in the very early days of Christianity it was more of an "Earth Mother" religion... and then yeah... the Romans.  Ugh.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: The lords prayer has changed quite a bit [Re: sterbeklang]
    #10626821 - 07/05/09 08:28 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

sterbeklang said:
I kinda have a feeling that in the very early days of Christianity it was more of an "Earth Mother" religion... and then yeah... the Romans.  Ugh.



No.  Romans had much more of an "Earth Mother" aspect to their religion than the Christians.  In fact, they specifically had a name for her:  Terra.  She was based on the Greek goddess Gaia.

Now, it is true that there was a lot more mysticism in early Christianity that eventually got suppressed as the church became more institutionalized.  But this is simply a manifestation of the fact that there were so many versions of early Christianity, ranging from the legalistic to the mystical to the more Jewish to the more Hellenistic, etc.  But so far as I'm aware, there was no pagan-like "Earth mother" form of Christianity.  The only goddess I'm aware of in early Christendom was Sophia in the Gnostic groups.  But Sophia was no Earth mother -- the Gnostics, in fact, hated the Earth and considered it a prison for the soul.  The orthodox critics of Gnosticism such as Iraneus and Justin Martyr actually attacked them for defaming God's creation.


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Invisiblesterbeklang
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Re: The lords prayer has changed quite a bit [Re: Silversoul]
    #10628546 - 07/06/09 05:35 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

What if we make Mary the Earth Mother?


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: The lords prayer has changed quite a bit [Re: Silversoul]
    #10628554 - 07/06/09 05:39 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

> Sounds lovely, but how could they translate directly from Aramaic?  The New Testament was written in Greek, so they would have to translate from Greek to Aramaic to English.

Although the majority of the NT is assumed to be originally written in Greek, there are a few parts of it (Book of Mathew, and one other that I can't remember) that are thought to have been written in Aramaic and Hebrew.  A few people also claim that the entire thing was originally written in Aramaic and then translated into Greek.  The books Mark, Mathew, and Luke appear to have a common source, the Q book, which would most likely have been written in Aramaic.  Regardless, we really don't know if the originals were completely written in Greek, mostly written in Greek, or translated form other sources into Greek.  We do know that Greek was the unifying language used as a source of later translations.


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Just another spore in the wind.


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Invisibleblewmeanie
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Re: The lords prayer has changed quite a bit [Re: Seuss]
    #10628583 - 07/06/09 06:06 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)



--------------------
The Prophecy!

Learn To Code


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OfflineVisionary Tools
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Re: The lords prayer has changed quite a bit [Re: sterbeklang]
    #10628654 - 07/06/09 06:47 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

sterbeklang said:
What if we make Mary the Earth Mother?




What if earth was the earth mother?

Doesn't really need a goddess. Sure, you can worship the planet, the plants, the fish and fowl, the beasts and trees, the mountains and valleys, the deserts and tundras, or you could worship the once scource from which all things arise. That original thought that led to all.

Jesus really didn't like the Romans very much, and pre Christian Romans really liked doing brutal, horrible things with them (look for "rome human torch" if you want to see).

The Romans realised they would not be able to defeat it's popularity, and felt people would unify under the banner of the cross against them. They took it, and made it their own.

For this, I dispise the Romans, and their barbaric religion to this day. I was Catholic, I was brought up Catholic, and I see how my grandmother worships. All of that has cemented my knowledge that it's a blasphemous cult, that does more to keep people spiritually confused than anything else.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The lords prayer has changed quite a bit [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #10629083 - 07/06/09 09:46 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

THE ARAMAIC PRAYER OF JESUS
as translated from Aramaic by Saadi Neil Douglas-Klotz of the Sufi Order of the West

O, Birther of the Cosmos, focus your light within us -- make it useful
Create your reign of unity now
Your one desire then acts with ours,
As in all light,
So in all forms,
Grant us what we need each day in bread and insight:
Loose the cords of mistakes binding us,
As we release the strands we hold of other's guilt.
Don't let surface things delude us,
But free us from what holds us back.
From you is born all ruling will,
The power and the life to do,
The song that beautifies all,
From age to age it renews.
I affirm this with my whole being.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleMiddlemanM

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Re: The lords prayer has changed quite a bit [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #10629224 - 07/06/09 10:19 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

So what was the Aramaic source he was translating from?


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: The lords prayer has changed quite a bit [Re: sterbeklang]
    #10629576 - 07/06/09 11:22 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

sterbeklang said:
What if we make Mary the Earth Mother?



She is referred to by the title "Queen of Heaven," so that wouldn't quite make sense.


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InvisibleMiddlemanM

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Re: The lords prayer has changed quite a bit [Re: Silversoul]
    #10629592 - 07/06/09 11:26 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Remember it was Osiris mistaking Set's wife Nephthys for his own wife Isis that started all of this.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: The lords prayer has changed quite a bit [Re: Middleman]
    #10629706 - 07/06/09 11:48 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Indeed, Isis was the original "Queen of Heaven."  It's quite possible that the devotion to Mary was a way of gaining converts from the popular cult of Isis.


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InvisibleMiddlemanM

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Re: The lords prayer has changed quite a bit [Re: Silversoul]
    #10629830 - 07/06/09 12:16 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Mer was the Egyptian word for mother and Meri is the title for beloved.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: The lords prayer has changed quite a bit [Re: Middleman]
    #10630435 - 07/06/09 01:48 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

And "Miriam" was the most common girl's name in Judea at the time of Jesus(much like "Maria" is the most common girl's name among Hispanics today).


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The lords prayer has changed quite a bit [Re: Middleman]
    #10632961 - 07/06/09 10:08 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

"My source for the Aramaic text is a version of the Syriac Aramaic manuscript of the Gospels, also known as the Peshitta Version, that was prepared by the Reverend G.H. Gwilliam and issued by the Clarendon Press in 1901." Pp. 4-5 Prayers of the Cosmos: Meditations on the Aramaic Words of Jesus by Neil Douglas-Klotz.

+++
+++

Abwoon is the Name of God in Aramaic - Cosmic Mother Father or Cosmic Birther are both translations. It contains some of the Arabic root as the Name Allah in terms of masculine and feminine linguistic combinations.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleChiefGreenLeaf
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Re: The lords prayer has changed quite a bit [Re: Mr.Al]
    #10633488 - 07/06/09 11:39 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Mr.Al said:
Fucking Romans interfered with the message.

Jesus was not socially acceptable.

The people who frequent churches would probably not like him.

A lot of the stuff he said was really far out.

The stuff written by his apostles was mostly garbage, but that is what you hear at church.

Anyway, I just wanted to be in this thread so I can read that again.......



I agree
the gospel of thomas really goes to show that fact
i sounds like he is talking about kundalini, daoism
who the fuck knows

Quote:

Jesus said:
Whoever discovers the interpretation of these sayings will not taste death

If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the Father's kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the kingdom is within you and it is outside you

Lucky is the lion that the human will eat, so that the lion becomes human. And foul is the human that the lion will eat, and the lion still will become human

I have cast fire upon the world, and look, I'm guarding it until it blazes

This heaven will pass away, and the one above it will pass away

If you fast, you will bring sin upon yourselves, and if you pray, you will be condemned, and if you give to charity, you will harm your spirit

Perhaps people think that I have come to cast peace upon the world. They do not know that I have come to cast conflicts upon the earth: fire, sword, war

Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death

These nursing babies are like those who enter the kingdom




That's just a taste.
here is the whole thing
http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/gosthom.html

oh and my favorite....
"Be passersby"

:grin:


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OfflineMr.Al
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Re: The lords prayer has changed quite a bit [Re: ChiefGreenLeaf]
    #10636925 - 07/07/09 04:30 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah "can you be like a child"... That stuff smacks of Taoism. 

The root of Taoism (indeed all forms of religion) is shamanism. 

It's the drug taking!

People today worship empty ritual of things that probably had some purpose or meaning.

I recall either Discovery or History channel talking about that cat going around hooking people up with psychedelic mushrooms.....  They said that some of the Jewish priests ate the mushies but wanted to keep it secret from the people.


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Invisibleblewmeanie
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Re: The lords prayer has changed quite a bit [Re: Mr.Al]
    #10637025 - 07/07/09 04:48 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

There haven't been any Jewish priests in about 2000 years.


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OfflineMr.Al
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Re: The lords prayer has changed quite a bit [Re: blewmeanie]
    #10637086 - 07/07/09 04:57 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Where did they go?

The Bible is kind of schizophrenic.  The OT and NT are completely different.  Kind of reminiscent of Zoroastrianism.


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Invisibleblewmeanie
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Re: The lords prayer has changed quite a bit [Re: Mr.Al]
    #10637317 - 07/07/09 05:48 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

The lineage is still around. I was raised by a Levi, but there haven't been any priests since the temple was destroyed.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The lords prayer has changed quite a bit [Re: Mr.Al]
    #10637333 - 07/07/09 05:51 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Jews don't call their writings the OT, because they do not recognize the Greek books as a New Testament. The Five Books of Moses (which were not written by Moses) is the Pentateuch (actually Greek for 5 books). The Prophets are referred to as the Haftarah, and collectively, what Christians call the OT is the Tenach. These are a collection of writings which span a lot of time. The so-called NT is also a compilation, and a very incomplete one at that. After the Church Fathers burned the books that threatened ecclesiastical authority, they used only four gospels. Why? Because there are 4 quarters of the world and four winds! Great. Fortunately for the world, the Nag Hammadi library was unearthed by an illiterate and murderous Muslim, God bless 'im.

Why are there no more Jewish priests? Because there is no more Jewish Temple. The Romans demolished the second Temple in 70 AD. Temple worship was demolished along with the Temple, Jews were scattered around the globe (the Diaspora, or dispersion), and Rabbinic Judaism arose to minister to the needs of a decentralized Jewish religion. Now, aside from the West Wall (The Wailing Wall) of what was once Solomon's Temple (rebuilt by Herod), there is The Dome of the Rock - the Muslim mosque which sits on the razed Temple - the Temple Mount.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineMr.Al
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Re: The lords prayer has changed quite a bit [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #10637850 - 07/07/09 07:31 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Markos is astoundingly well versed in this stuff...

Whatcha think about stuff like Reiki and JohRei?


I've experienced both but have only some training in the Reiki...


Perhaps more importantly, do you know of any other useful "schools" for that kind of work???

Stuff works great with Ayahuasca.....


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The lords prayer has changed quite a bit [Re: Mr.Al]
    #10638937 - 07/07/09 10:08 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

There's a lot of "stuff" to be well versed in, and I'm not conversant in either of the schools you mention. My best friend from babyhood learned Reiki and he's never discussed it with me. My massage therapist, at my chiropractor, uses a Reiki technique of vibe-clearing or whatever, when she's finished, but I plead ignorance in these domains.


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OfflineMr.Al
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Re: The lords prayer has changed quite a bit [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #10643321 - 07/08/09 06:04 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Seriously, you need to check out Reiki and JohRei.

Reiki is "universal life force energy healing".

JohRei is this white light energy....

I am only trained in Reiki but have experienced both...

The JohRei is more subtle and powerful.  It directly effects the perceptual faculty.  Colors are brighter and you just feel really blissed out.  Reiki has very specific applications.  Both can be used long-distance!

Psychedelics plus Reiki is amazing.  The symbols start to vibrate and do strange things.  This is especially useful where much healing is needed.

I highly recommend that you experience these traditions.  There is training readily available in both of them.


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