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InvisibleDiploidM
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Hydrogen Stored In A Feather Gas Tank
    #10606251 - 07/01/09 09:28 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

If this works, it will remove one of the biggest obstacles currently making practical hydrogen powered cars a reality. Namely the danger and expense of having a tank of highly compressed gas in your car.

--

Feathered fuel tank soaks up hydrogen
by Chris Spitzer, The Oregonian
Friday June 26, 2009, 8:43 PM

The gas tank of the future may be full of chicken feathers.

Engineers have discovered a way to store large amounts of hydrogen fuel using carbonized downy fluff, which could help pave the way to clean, green cars.

A practical hydrogen car has been elusive for decades. Before the announcement this week by University of Delaware engineers, a nonstop trip from Portland to Eugene in a hydrogen car would need a tank bigger than 100 gallons to store liquid or gaseous fuel, even under high pressure.

Treated chicken feathers work like a sponge. They soak up large amounts of hydrogen and hold it in a small space so the tank can be a conventional size and the fuel won't need to held under dangerously high pressures. Hydrogen creates only water vapor when it burns, unlike gasoline that emits carbon dioxide, a culprit in climate change.

"It's the most energy-rich material we have," says Roger Ely, an Oregon State University professor who specializes in hydrogen, "It's three times the energy content of gasoline on a pound-for-pound basis."

The problem is that this potent fuel is hard to squeeze into small spaces. "Once somebody cracks that nut, it's really going to help," Ely says.

Professor Richard Wool and graduate student Erman Senoz at the University of Delaware believe they may have found a solution.

"The question came up," Wool said, "of what to do with the six billion pounds of waste chicken feathers" produced every year. He experimented for years with various ways to use feathers and eventually wondered if they might store hydrogen.

Scientists have long known that hydrogen sticks well to carbon surfaces. Research has focused on tiny nanotubes, in which sheets of carbon are rolled into a compact space. The problem is nanotubes are expensive: A 20-gallon tank of them can cost more than $1 million.

Chicken feather fibers are mostly composed of keratin, a natural protein that forms strong, hollow tubes. The breakthrough moment came when researchers heated feathers to 700 degrees, causing a process called carbonization that created billions of tiny pores. They had found an ideal place to pack large amounts of hydrogen.

The new feather-based material can be produced at a small fraction of carbon nanotubes' cost. A 20-gallon feather-based tank would be about $100.

Don't expect to see hydrogen cars zipping along for another decade or more -- storage is just one of the problems. Production is another.

"There are no hydrogen wells," cautions Wool. A number of institutions, including Oregon State University, are looking at ways to convert sunlight to hydrogen.

Having pulled feathers from the landfill and turned them into fuel tanks, Wool sees "an infinite number of applications." Next up, watch for circuit boards, wind turbine blades and hurricane-proof roofs.

Oregon Live


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1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Hydrogen Stored In A Feather Gas Tank [Re: Diploid]
    #10612125 - 07/02/09 09:06 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

I wonder how well carbonized mycelia would work.

Edit: I found a better article.

http://portal.acs.org/portal/acs/corg/content?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=PP_ARTICLEMAIN&node_id=222&content_id=CNBP_022276&use_sec=true&sec_url_var=region1&__uuid=

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE | June 23, 2009
Note to journalists: Please report that this research was presented at the 13th Annual Green Chemistry & Engineering Conference.
Feather fibers fluff up hydrogen storage capacity
Contact

Marvin Coyner

202-872-4493

301-985-4647

m_coyner@acs.org

COLLEGE PARK, M.D., June 23 – Scientists in Delaware say they have developed a new hydrogen storage method — carbonized chicken feather fibers — that can hold vast amounts of hydrogen, a promising but difficult to corral fuel source, and do it at a far lower cost than other hydrogen storage systems under consideration.

The research, presented here today at the 13th Annual Green Chemistry & Engineering Conference, could eventually help overcome some of the hurdles to using hydrogen fuel in cars, trucks and other machinery.

The conference is organized by the ACS Green Chemistry Institute®, a nonprofit organization devoted to promoting and advancing the discovery and design of chemical products and processes that eliminate the generation and use of hazardous substances in all aspects of the global chemical enterprise.

“Carbonized chicken feather fibers have the potential to dramatically improve upon existing methods of hydrogen storage and perhaps pave the way for the practical development of a truly hydrogen-based energy economy,” says Richard P. Wool, Ph.D., professor of chemical engineering and director of the Affordable Composites from Renewable Resources program at the University of Delaware in Newark.

The research was presented by Erman Senoz, a graduate student in the Department of Chemical Engineering at the University of Delaware in Newark.

Chicken feather fibers are mostly composed of keratin, a natural protein that forms strong, hollow tubes. When heated, this protein creates crosslinks, which strengthen its structure, and becomes more porous, increasing its surface area. The net result is carbonized chicken feather fibers, which can absorb as much or perhaps more hydrogen than carbon nanotubes or metal hydrides, two other materials being studied for their hydrogen storage potential, Wool says. Plus, they’re cheap.

Using carbonized chicken feathers would only add about $200 to the price of a car, according to Wool. By comparison, making a 20-gallon hydrogen fuel tank that uses carbon nanotubes could cost $5.5 million; one that uses metal hydrides could cost up to $30,000, Wool says.

Hydrogen, the most common element in the universe, has long been touted as a clean and abundant energy alternative to fossil fuels. But its physical characteristics make it very difficult to store and transport — as a pressurized gas it takes up about 40 times as much space as gasoline; as a liquid it needs to be kept at extremely low temperatures.

Wool estimates that it would take a 75-gallon tank to go 300 miles in a car using carbonized chicken feather fibers to store hydrogen. He says his team is working to improve that range.

“The problem with hydrogen as a gas or liquid is its density is too low,” Wool says. “Using currently available technology, if you had a 20-gallon tank and filled it with hydrogen at typical room temperature and pressure, you could drive about a mile. When we started we didn’t know how well carbonized chicken feathers would work for hydrogen storage, but we certainly suspected we could do a lot better than that.”

In addition to hydrogen storage, Wool and his colleagues are working on ways to transform chicken feather fibers into a number of other products including hurricane-resistant roofing, lightweight car parts and bio-based computer circuit boards.

###

-- Doug Dollemore

This research, “Hydrogen Storage On Carbonized Chicken Feather Fibers,” (paper #14), will be presented at 10:55 a.m., Tuesday, June 23, in rooms 2101/2103/2105 at the Marriott Inn and Conference Center, University of Maryland University College, during the symposium, ‘Technologies for a Hydrogen Economy.”

Richard P. Wool, Ph.D., is a professor of chemical engineering and director of the Affordable Composites from Renewable Resources program at the University of Delaware in Newark. This research was funded by a grant from USDA-CSREES.

Erman Senoz is a graduate student in the Department of Chemical Engineering at the University of Delaware in Newark.


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"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

Edited by Baby_Hitler (07/02/09 09:22 PM)

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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Hydrogen Stored In A Feather Gas Tank [Re: Diploid]
    #10615450 - 07/03/09 12:03 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)



--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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OfflineVisionary Tools
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Re: Hydrogen Stored In A Feather Gas Tank [Re: Diploid]
    #10615488 - 07/03/09 12:14 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Hydrogen creates only water vapor when it burns, unlike gasoline that emits carbon dioxide, a culprit in climate change.




Good article, right up to there.

Dude, what's the most commonplace insulating gas? It IS water vapour!



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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Hydrogen Stored In A Feather Gas Tank [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #10615528 - 07/03/09 12:24 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Atmospheric water vapor concentration is regulated by fast-acting condensation i.e. rain. Adding slightly more water vapor to the atmosphere will just cause it to rain slightly more. The effects aren't cumulative like with methane and CO2.


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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Offlineiateshaggy
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Re: Hydrogen Stored In A Feather Gas Tank [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #10615989 - 07/03/09 01:53 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

this will be very confusing for vegan hippies.


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You are a filipina sex goddess who wants to fuck me until I fall asleep, so then you can tickle my balls and see if the legend of my diamond filled nutsuck is true.  I am a white man from costa rica, who smells like lime jello.


I can flash/jtag/repair 360's, pm for details.

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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Hydrogen Stored In A Feather Gas Tank [Re: iateshaggy]
    #10615999 - 07/03/09 01:55 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Like I said, mycelium may also work.

Vegan hippie scientists should get to work on that.


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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InvisibleMinstrel
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Re: Hydrogen Stored In A Feather Gas Tank [Re: Diploid]
    #10616601 - 07/03/09 03:58 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

I've read that palladium can hold insane amounts of hydrogen within it's crystal lattice.

I don't know about it for storage, but they are trying experiments with it in fusion.


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Invisiblearainbow
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Re: Hydrogen Stored In A Feather Gas Tank [Re: Minstrel]
    #10617348 - 07/03/09 06:29 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

the biggest obstacle to hydrogen powered any thing is a source of hydrogen


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There is more joy in heaven over one of us perfected,
  than over ninety-nine naturally evolved angels.

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Invisiblearainbow
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Re: Hydrogen Stored In A Feather Gas Tank [Re: Minstrel]
    #10617363 - 07/03/09 06:32 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

the biggest obstacle to hydrogen powered any thing is a source of hydrogen


--------------------
There is more joy in heaven over one of us perfected,
  than over ninety-nine naturally evolved angels.

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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Hydrogen Stored In A Feather Gas Tank [Re: arainbow]
    #10617364 - 07/03/09 06:33 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

How do you figure?  The technology to store it on the vehicle seem like the biggest obstacle to me.

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Invisiblearainbow
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Re: Hydrogen Stored In A Feather Gas Tank [Re: DieCommie]
    #10617379 - 07/03/09 06:37 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

converting water to hydrogen is a 6 to 1 deal
you put in 6 units of energy to make hydrogen
and get back 1 unit of energy
made from methane 4 to 1 and all the carbon is still released
hydrogen is an energy carrier NOT A ENERGY SOURCE


--------------------
There is more joy in heaven over one of us perfected,
  than over ninety-nine naturally evolved angels.

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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Hydrogen Stored In A Feather Gas Tank [Re: arainbow]
    #10617383 - 07/03/09 06:39 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

You still didnt answer my question...

Im sure everyone here is aware that hydrogen is an energy carrier and not an energy source.  The technology to make hydrogen cheaply (nuclear) is here, but the technology to transport it on a vehicle is not.

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Invisiblearainbow
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Re: Hydrogen Stored In A Feather Gas Tank [Re: DieCommie]
    #10617414 - 07/03/09 06:48 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

let me spell this out for you
s i x  units of energy in for  o n e  unit of energy out

batteries return 80% of the energy put in to them
you want a eco clean car this is the way to go
until fusion is working then hydrogen would be a byproduct of making fusion fuel


--------------------
There is more joy in heaven over one of us perfected,
  than over ninety-nine naturally evolved angels.

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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Hydrogen Stored In A Feather Gas Tank [Re: arainbow]
    #10617438 - 07/03/09 06:54 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

I agree. We're still a long way from a "Hydrogen Economy".

Personally, I think algal biodiesel is the best candidate for solving the energy crisis.


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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Invisiblearainbow
Hippy


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Re: Hydrogen Stored In A Feather Gas Tank [Re: arainbow]
    #10617502 - 07/03/09 07:14 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

solving the energy crisis is going to tack every source we can find

algal biodiesel is the best short term bet right now for transportation

methane is the best for space heating + heat driven heat pumps

solar,wind and hydro eletric for electricity 
even if fusion started working today we would be out of oil before it could replace oil
(time and money to build the power plants)


--------------------
There is more joy in heaven over one of us perfected,
  than over ninety-nine naturally evolved angels.

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InvisibleMinstrel
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Re: Hydrogen Stored In A Feather Gas Tank [Re: arainbow]
    #10617528 - 07/03/09 07:23 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

You are so wrong about everything!

To get hydrogen from methane (reaction with water to make 3H2 and CO), the reaction is exothermic.  It liberates heat (-190kJ/mol).  The CO can be further reacted with another H2O to get another H2, whist losing 40 kJ/mol of heat.  So for every mol of H2 made, you liberate about 40kJ.  Now, the heat of combustion for 2H2 is 286 kJ/mol.  Thus, you get energy when you make hydrogen (from methane), as well as when you burn it; your whole "4 to 1" business is bogus.

Now, the 6 to 1 with water is even more ridiculous, but for a different reason.  The energy difference between the two states is the same, regardless of which direction you go: 

Reduction:  2H2O -> 2O2 + 2H2    H* = 286kJ/mol
Oxidation:  2O2 + 2H2 ->  2H2O  H* = -286kJ/mol

Naturally, some is thermally lost due to entropy, but nowhere near 6 to 1.  What source do you have that has you believing such gibberish?


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Invisiblearainbow
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Re: Hydrogen Stored In A Feather Gas Tank [Re: arainbow]
    #10617600 - 07/03/09 07:43 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)



--------------------
There is more joy in heaven over one of us perfected,
  than over ninety-nine naturally evolved angels.

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InvisibleMinstrel
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Re: Hydrogen Stored In A Feather Gas Tank [Re: arainbow]
    #10617695 - 07/03/09 08:01 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Oh, okay.  I see what you mean now.  Vagueness breeds bewilderment.


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Offlinesupra
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Re: Hydrogen Stored In A Feather Gas Tank [Re: arainbow]
    #10630911 - 07/06/09 03:23 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

arainbow said:
the biggest obstacle to hydrogen powered any thing is a source of hydrogen




isn't hydrogen the most abundant element in the universe?  Is there problem that most of it here is bound up in all sorts of different molecules?

peace

Edited by supra (07/06/09 03:23 PM)

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