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OfflineCyber
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Lets Talk about spawned substrates
    #10596487 - 06/30/09 07:23 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Back in 4/2005 I created a set of substrates that were 12"x12"x3" and fruited them, I took the output from the first flush and weighed it. Looking back at my notes the following was the output from those experiments.

1) All tests done with Colonized WBS of Z-Strain isolate
2) 1:2 spawning ration means 1 part wbs to 2 parts substrate.
3) All Cow Poo was composted Cow Poo

Wild Bird Seed, 100% put it in the tray, level it out and fruit it == 462g wet
Coir Spawned with WBS @ 1:2 == 301g wet
Vermiculite spawned with WBS @ 1:2 == 280g wet
Cow Poo and Vermiculite 50/50 spawned @ 1:2 == 486g wet
Cow Poo Vermaculite, Coir  33/33/33 spawned @ 1:2 == 685g wet
Cow Poo, Vermiculite, coir  20/30/50 spawned @ 1:2 == 1059g wet
Cow Poo, Vermiculite, coir  10/40/50 spawned @ 1:2 == 859g wet

Now this was all done before the advent of using Coffee or coffee grinds in your substrate so I have not tested them.
I can not seem to get straw locally so I have not tested straw.
I have never used lime, lye, gypsum, or any other product to ADJUST the ph. Never saw it as needed.
I have not tested horse poo because, until recently, I did not have access to it.
Over the years I have noted a variation of about 150g +/- on the 20/30/50 mix based on the strain isolate I use. So there can be a 14% to 15% variation based on the strain.

I personally do not believe that coir, by it self, has any nutrient value. So if you are spawning a BRF cake into coir that was hydrated with water then the only nutrient source available to the mycelia is the BRF. I did note that coir did a little better than vermiculite when spawned but the 20g difference is so small that it is well with in the error range for the test.

So, is anyone else willing to test there substrate? It is real simple, just make up your substrate mix and spawn it at a 1:2 ratio into a 12x12 pan. fruit it, weigh your first flush and post the info and numbers. You can go to the grocery store and get a 12x12 aluminum pan.
This will give you the wet gram weight per square foot of fruiting area which is, OMHO, a good way to measure the substrate you are using.

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Re: Lets Talk about spawned substrates [Re: Cyber]
    #10596524 - 06/30/09 07:37 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

I'd like to see poo/verm/coir 40/10/50.

I haven't ever tried anything like this, but I'm getting to that stage in my hobby. So it's really cool to see this as an example of how to go about quantifying all of this.


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Lets Talk about spawned substrates [Re: Doc_T]
    #10596679 - 06/30/09 08:38 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

A look around the boards will show that coir is about as nutritious as cow or horse manure.  Vermiculite also supports fungi.  Neither are inert, as was commonly thought a few years ago.
RR


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Re: Lets Talk about spawned substrates [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #10596757 - 06/30/09 09:03 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

I'd like to see poo/verm/coir 40/10/50.

I haven't ever tried anything like this, but I'm getting to that stage in my hobby. So it's really cool to see this as an example of how to go about quantifying all of this.




thats what i normally use Doc, well a brick of coir 7 quart and about 10 quart poo, quart gyspum and quart verm. seems to work really well.


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Re: Lets Talk about spawned substrates [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #10596766 - 06/30/09 09:07 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
A look around the boards will show that coir is about as nutritious as cow or horse manure.  Vermiculite also supports fungi.  Neither are inert, as was commonly thought a few years ago.
RR




delicious nutritious.


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OfflineCyber
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Re: Lets Talk about spawned substrates [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #10596960 - 06/30/09 10:05 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
A look around the boards will show that coir is about as nutritious as cow or horse manure.  Vermiculite also supports fungi.  Neither are inert, as was commonly thought a few years ago.
RR




RR, I have seen you post it, I have seen people quote you as saying it. There are 749 posts with the words coir and nutritious in them. non of them seemed to test it.

Look at the numbers, coir did not produce anywhere near as good as some of the other mixes and only produced about as good as vermiculite. I would look at the spawn as providing the nutritious content there not the coir. To say it is as good as Cow poo is stretching it. I would also note that most of the coir grows I found  were spawned with grain. When I have seen people try to used BRF to spawn it appears that they get small flushes, stalling, and poor pin sets when using just coir. This would lead me to think that the mycelia are running out of food for growth.

I will admit that if you add coffee grounds into the mix it appears to do well but that does not mean that the coir is the nutrient source.

To point to mold and say that it must be nutritious because mold grows on it, then the caulk in the bathroom must be nutrisous as well because mold grows on it. The truth is that Mold can grow on any organic substance, paper, cloth, wood, the dirt that you wash from your body, you name it. Ps. Cubensis can not. So saying that it is good because mold grows on it is not correct.

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OfflinePsuper
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Re: Lets Talk about spawned substrates [Re: Cyber]
    #10597038 - 06/30/09 10:24 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Wait, you're saying your results were better fruiting straight WBS than WBS spawned to coir? 

Looking around at other grows I don't come to this conclusion at all.  Looking at my own coir based projects I don't come to this conclusion at all.

I am certainely not trying to end the debate here, but where's the evidence?  I've seen a lot of great coir based projects. ~Pixie~


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OfflineCyber
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Re: Lets Talk about spawned substrates [Re: Psuper]
    #10597099 - 06/30/09 10:42 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

What I am saying is that straight coir, not coir with coffee, not coir with poo, just coir and water when spawned at 1:2 (1 spawn:2 coir) does not produce as well as fruiting 100% wbs. So if 100% of the nutrition is WBS and it does better than if 1/3 of the mix is wbs and 2/3 of it is coir then coir can not be adding that much nutrition to the mix. It would also lead me to believe that the nutrition is coming from the WBS and the coir is more of a fluffing agent.

When you have done coir grows was it just coir? or did you add stuff like coffee, compost tea, etc that added nutrients to the mix? On top of that what was your output? Did you measure it? Has anyone other than me even done tests and measured the output?

I am open if some one can prove me wrong, That is one reason I posted the outputs and the standards I used. So that others can repeat my tests. It will confirm or deny what I am saying. That is the basis of science.

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OfflineArcanePerception
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Re: Lets Talk about spawned substrates [Re: Cyber]
    #10597311 - 06/30/09 11:28 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

very interesting thread. IME coir certainly improves yields over straight wbs but I have been wondering if its the nutrients it provides or just the extra moisture and aeration? But anyway thank goodness for coir because buying a brick is soo much easier than searching fields for hpoo with firefang.


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OfflineArcanePerception
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Re: Lets Talk about spawned substrates [Re: ArcanePerception]
    #10597328 - 06/30/09 11:31 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

sorta on the same topic is it the carbohydrates that cubes consume? If yes is it only simple carbs or starches as well?


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Lets Talk about spawned substrates [Re: ArcanePerception]
    #10597349 - 06/30/09 11:38 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Looking for 'nutrients' is missing the point, because fungi are neither humans nor plants.  They break down material on the cellular level, so grow on just about any substrate with cells and/or minerals.  That's why they grew on the bible, bra, stuffed animal and ball of twine.  Those were gag grows, but they make the point that it's not about 'nutes'. 

The book certainly isn't written on fungi yet, so we're all still learning as we go along.  In fact, the more we learn about mycelium, the plainer it becomes how little we actually do know.
RR


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Offlinefeelingfunny
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Re: Lets Talk about spawned substrates [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #10597375 - 06/30/09 11:46 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

I am currently going with BRF cakes and coir. This pic is from 3 days ago, two days after it was put together.



This is from last night.



I think coir does a GREAT job. I will be adding a 50/50+ casing layer tomorrow morning.


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OfflineCyber
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Re: Lets Talk about spawned substrates [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #10597390 - 06/30/09 11:49 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Looking for 'nutrients' is missing the point, because fungi are neither humans nor plants.  They break down material on the cellular level, so grow on just about any substrate with cells and/or minerals.  That's why they grew on the bible, bra, stuffed animal and ball of twine.  Those were gag grows, but they make the point that it's not about 'nutes'. 





I think it is about both however, I now have a chemical substrate that works for mycelia growth. So it can not be 100% about cell structures but you have to use a large mix of stuff to get any kind of good growth. That is still in the works though, I will get that microscope if it kills me :lol:

Quote:


The book certainly isn't written on fungi yet, so we're all still learning as we go along.  In fact, the more we learn about mycelium, the plainer it becomes how little we actually do know.
RR




On this I agree 100%, the more I learn about what they use the more it becomes evident how little we really know about them.

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Re: Lets Talk about spawned substrates [Re: Cyber]
    #10597454 - 06/30/09 12:05 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Cyber said:

On this I agree 100%, the more I learn about what they use the more it becomes evident how little we really know about them.




Stamets believes that on some level, mycelium are sentient beings. Wouldn't it be a gas to find out that fungi was the top of the heap and that mankind was just an experiment?  :shrug:


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OfflineCyber
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Re: Lets Talk about spawned substrates [Re: feelingfunny]
    #10603675 - 07/01/09 01:41 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

feelingfunny said:
I am currently going with BRF cakes and coir. This pic is from 3 days ago, two days after it was put together.



This is from last night.



I think coir does a GREAT job. I will be adding a 50/50+ casing layer tomorrow morning.




Tell me, is that just coir or is that coir and coffee?

After the first flush, weigh your fruit and let us know how much you got from it.

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Offlinefeelingfunny
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Re: Lets Talk about spawned substrates [Re: Cyber]
    #10603723 - 07/01/09 01:53 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

They are straight coir. I have 4 total. One has MGMC straight outta the bag, one has pasturized MGMC, one has nothing, and one is verm only. I am experimenting a little. I will post weights after harvest.


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Re: Lets Talk about spawned substrates [Re: feelingfunny]
    #10603828 - 07/01/09 02:14 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

feelingfunny said:
They are straight coir. I have 4 total. One has MGMC straight outta the bag, one has pasturized MGMC, one has nothing, and one is verm only. I am experimenting a little. I will post weights after harvest.




You do know that is not coir? It contains some coir but it is not a "Straight Coir" substrate.

MGMC is 50%-60% sphagnum peat moss, coir, Composted bark, perlite, a wetting agent, and fertilizer. It uses a specially coated fertilizer that is slow release at .10%

The above is from the published MSDS sheet by Miracle-Gro

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Offlinefeelingfunny
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Re: Lets Talk about spawned substrates [Re: Cyber]
    #10603962 - 07/01/09 02:36 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Sorry, let me clarify. It's a BRF cake that I spawned to coir. (I think spawn is the right word, I am still working on my terminology.)

And I realize now reading it, how you took it. They all four are coir and BRF cake. The four different things I mentioned are the casing layers. Sorry, I am always wording things the wrong way and confusing people.

And I removed all the fertilizer balls and bark from the MGMC before I put it on. One I used with no pasturization, one with.


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Re: Lets Talk about spawned substrates [Re: feelingfunny]
    #10604473 - 07/01/09 03:53 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

You'll get the terminology sooner or later. And then you'll be able to talk clearly with the other cultivators- without the right words, it's just baby talk. Sounds like you've got it down so far.


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Re: Lets Talk about spawned substrates [Re: feelingfunny]
    #10604490 - 07/01/09 03:56 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

feelingfunny said
And I removed all the fertilizer balls and bark from the MGMC before I put it on.



Yikes, that sounds like a lot of work!

Do you have good luck with MGMC?

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