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Offlinekinderfeld11
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Registered: 12/13/08
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One monotub two strains?
    #10588022 - 06/28/09 06:42 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Ok so I want to innoc like 16 jars but I have no two same strain syringes but have a couple of different variety. I also want a decent amount of innoc for faster performance. I have searched and find people say it could cause problems (mutants), some say it's fine, some say they will fight, some say you'll get crosses, some say you get a little of both or you might just get one.

My main question is can I mix 8 jars of spawn of one strain to one side of the monotub and 8 jars of another strain to the other half... if that would be suffice to grow two strains in the same tub and if they would fruit at full potential. Any problems doing this?

I read that mixing them via inoculation is a toss up but I didn't find much if I just mixed up the crumbled cakes....of both strains...would this be a problem? Is the above idea better for using more than on strain or should I mix cakes or innoc?

I searched but this is a very confusion subject to research. I have not found anything to suggest separating the spawn to the bulk wouldn't work so any advice mucho appreciated.


--------------------
Cowards die many times before their deaths;
The valiant never taste of death but once.
Of all the wonders that I yet have heard.
It seems to me most strange that men should fear;
Seeing that death, a necessary end,
Will come when it will come.
(Julius Caesar, Act II, Scene 2).
:mushroom2:Host of new 'Kinderfeld's Kindness' monthly contest.:mushroom2:

Edited by kinderfeld11 (06/28/09 06:45 PM)

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InvisibleDoc_T
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Re: One monotub two strains? [Re: kinderfeld11]
    #10588098 - 06/28/09 06:56 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah, do it half and half. Put a piece of cardboard in to help set it up, then pull that out carefully.


--------------------
You make it all possible. Doesn't it feel good?

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Offlinekinderfeld11
kill your master


Registered: 12/13/08
Posts: 315
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Re: One monotub two strains? [Re: Doc_T]
    #10588125 - 06/28/09 07:02 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Ok sweet so by help "set up" do you mean I pull out the cardboard after colonization of both sides or do I take it out after each side is all mixed up?

Sorry for the bombardment of Qs...


--------------------
Cowards die many times before their deaths;
The valiant never taste of death but once.
Of all the wonders that I yet have heard.
It seems to me most strange that men should fear;
Seeing that death, a necessary end,
Will come when it will come.
(Julius Caesar, Act II, Scene 2).
:mushroom2:Host of new 'Kinderfeld's Kindness' monthly contest.:mushroom2:

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OfflineOogieBoogie
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Re: One monotub two strains? [Re: kinderfeld11]
    #10588138 - 06/28/09 07:04 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

I've seen a few things about this splitting the tub half and half :thumbup:
definitely keep us updated id like to see ! :headbang3:

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Offlineelectrics
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Re: One monotub two strains? [Re: OogieBoogie]
    #10588168 - 06/28/09 07:11 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

What ever happened to a cube is a cube!! I've never had mycelium battles or only one strain win...I've currently mixed equador with CRS on accident of course but the result has been 2 flushes of very nice mushrooms just my experience.......e


--------------------
"Listen now I'm talking I've been here for weeks, waiting in this growing crowd staring at my feet, The world around me is Turning I'm just standing still, The time has come for changes do something or I will" Phish

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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: One monotub two strains? [Re: OogieBoogie]
    #10588183 - 06/28/09 07:13 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

sounds like a lot of spawn for a monotub.

Should work well either way on the divider.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Offlineveda_sticks
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Re: One monotub two strains? [Re: ScavengerType]
    #10588222 - 06/28/09 07:22 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

I think ive actually done this with 1 of my mini monos. I crumbled 3 cakes into it.

And then a few days later i was going to do another and noticed that i was missing 1 jar of 3 of the same strain which isnt in any of my 2 litre soda bottles, so we will see how it goes.

I seem to remember RR syaing that different strains have a 1 in 4 chance of joining.

the certainly dont battle or compete.

If your using spores, dont use more solution, you dont really get faster colinisation. What growth you initially see faster is all the spores germinateing and its ust a larger mass of mycelium, it still has to join together with the other networks which wastes energy.

Ive not noticed much difference between jars that accidentaly got too much solution compared with those that got just a 1/4 CC per hole in pf cakes. The cake that got too much showed alot more mycelium to begin with, but colinised in roughly the same time as the other jars.


--------------------

PF TEK - writeup by EvilMushroom666
Lets Grow Mushrooms - RogerRabbit & RoadKills website with sample videos plus the full PF TEK video series. Alot of great information - BUY THE DVD
Cakes can and will pin! - So you think cakes suck for pins. Your wrong
Franks Simple Coir/Verm Tek
Franks Proper Pasturisation Tek
Franks Spawning To Bulk - Monotub
Professor Pinheads RTV Injection Port Tek
Foo Mans No Soak WBS Prep Tek

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Offlinefungusfeller
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Re: One monotub two strains? [Re: electrics]
    #10588241 - 06/28/09 07:26 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

noc up all the same, are you concerned you don't have enough of one syringe to do 16 jars? if so just put a jar of sterile water in your glove box with your jars. when your syringe gets low draw up some water and continue, and repeat if necessary. when jars are all noced up fill your syringe up for next time.:wink:


--------------------


TIMMY PUKESPLASH

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OfflineRoseM
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Re: One monotub two strains? [Re: electrics]
    #10588293 - 06/28/09 07:38 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

electrics said:
What ever happened to a cube is a cube!! I've never had mycelium battles or only one strain win...I've currently mixed equador with CRS on accident of course but the result has been 2 flushes of very nice mushrooms just my experience.......e




Chances are BOTH types of cube would struggle for superiority and this energy could be better spent if it were directed into fruiting. True, the results could be negligible.

However...

Dividing the two would also, make it easier to know which was which. :wink:


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: One monotub two strains? [Re: Rose]
    #10588753 - 06/28/09 09:03 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

I remember RR said they don't compete. Cube is a cube, they won't fight and if this dude wants to do half and half I don't think it'll be a problem at all. Kinda might be interesting to see them both preform in identical conditions.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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OfflineRoseM
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Re: One monotub two strains? [Re: ScavengerType]
    #10588760 - 06/28/09 09:05 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

They DO compete or people wouldn't isolate strains. :wink:

But either way, the results will usually produce shrooms.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


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InvisibleDoc_T
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Re: One monotub two strains? [Re: Rose]
    #10588780 - 06/28/09 09:08 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

You can grow two strains side by side in a tub. I've done it. It worked fine. Both sides fruited just like I was expecting them to.


--------------------
You make it all possible. Doesn't it feel good?

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InvisibleLucid_Euphoria
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Re: One monotub two strains? [Re: Doc_T]
    #10588826 - 06/28/09 09:19 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

They DO compete or people wouldn't isolate strains.



They'll compete for nutrients and water, but they won't kill one another off. They will both live and fruit if they are both viable fruiting strains and are both given proper conditions.

Like Doc said, they can both prosper and fruit together. Or another possibility is the two separate dikaryotic networks can fuse together and exchange genetic sets. I forget the scientific name for this, I remember it from one of Stamets books.


--------------------
PAN CYAN & AZURE FOR TRADE

"If ignorance is bliss, THEN KNOCK THE SMILE OFF MY FACE!" - Zach de la Rocha

"Today a young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves. Here's Tom with the weather!" -Bill Hicks-

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InvisibleMnboardin
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Re: One monotub two strains? [Re: Lucid_Euphoria]
    #10588908 - 06/28/09 09:33 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Let them combine and see what comes out of it, and if you get something a little different mail me a spore print, or a piece of tissue. :wink:

Check out my Penis envy/Ecuadorian mix-





--------------------
:hamletmonkey:

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: One monotub two strains? [Re: Rose]
    #10589179 - 06/28/09 10:14 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Cervantes said:
They DO compete or people wouldn't isolate strains. :wink:





Not exactly, and that isn't why we isolate strains.

The same thing happens every time you use multispore inoculation, which could just as accurately be called multi-strain inoculation.  They don't compete any more than the thousands of hyphae that emerge from an inoculation site.  I've done this hundreds of times. 

Try it different ways just for grins and giggles.  Inoculate two holes of a jar with one strain and the other two holes with another.  Or, inoculate each of the 4 holes with a separate syringe(strain), for four strains per jar.  You can mix them at spawning or mix them at inoculation.  Do a few each way.  I doubt you'll be able to tell any difference between them all, at least no more than you'd normally see in a multispore grow.
RR


--------------------
Download Let's Grow Mushrooms



semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison

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Offlineiluvfungi
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Re: One monotub two strains? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #10589239 - 06/28/09 10:21 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

It gets somewhat technical but this is what happens when both strains grow in the same substraight; it generally creates a new strain. I can't explain it at a genetic detail, but the same is true if you pick a wild fungi and it is growing next to something poisonous; the result is a poisonous fungi.

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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: One monotub two strains? [Re: Rose]
    #10589257 - 06/28/09 10:24 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Cervantes said:
They DO compete or people wouldn't isolate strains. :wink:




Actually Mr. TC we isolate so that we can crank out consistently potent/prolific/large fruits as these traits tend to be genetic most of the time. This is why we don't always keep some isolates we make.

They will as RR had said not fight against each other just consume the nutrients separately. You will not loose in yields in any noticeable way. Especially if you are doing them the way the OP said by dividing them half and half.

edit: wow slow reply on my part


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

Edited by ScavengerType (06/28/09 10:26 PM)

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: One monotub two strains? [Re: iluvfungi]
    #10589313 - 06/28/09 10:31 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

iluvfungi said:
but the same is true if you pick a wild fungi and it is growing next to something poisonous; the result is a poisonous fungi.




That my friend is flat-out wrong.  I can't count the number of P cyanescens I've picked that were right next to and sometimes touching deadly galerinas. I've picked edibles in the forest that were inches away from death caps.  They don't transfer from one to another.
RR


--------------------
Download Let's Grow Mushrooms



semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison

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InvisibleLucid_Euphoria
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Re: One monotub two strains? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #10589491 - 06/28/09 10:51 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Misinformation sucks


--------------------
PAN CYAN & AZURE FOR TRADE

"If ignorance is bliss, THEN KNOCK THE SMILE OFF MY FACE!" - Zach de la Rocha

"Today a young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves. Here's Tom with the weather!" -Bill Hicks-

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Offlineveda_sticks
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Re: One monotub two strains? [Re: Mnboardin]
    #10589531 - 06/28/09 10:56 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Mnboardin said:
Let them combine and see what comes out of it, and if you get something a little different mail me a spore print, or a piece of tissue. :wink:

Check out my Penis envy/Ecuadorian mix-









Thats awesome!

I have 1 jar doing exactly what RR said, inoculate with 2 different sttrains, i have 8 inoc holes, 2 grouped together with 2 different strains, i need to birth that jar, the damn things pinning.


--------------------

PF TEK - writeup by EvilMushroom666
Lets Grow Mushrooms - RogerRabbit & RoadKills website with sample videos plus the full PF TEK video series. Alot of great information - BUY THE DVD
Cakes can and will pin! - So you think cakes suck for pins. Your wrong
Franks Simple Coir/Verm Tek
Franks Proper Pasturisation Tek
Franks Spawning To Bulk - Monotub
Professor Pinheads RTV Injection Port Tek
Foo Mans No Soak WBS Prep Tek

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OfflineRoseM
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Re: One monotub two strains? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #10589549 - 06/28/09 10:59 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Quote:

Cervantes said:
They DO compete or people wouldn't isolate strains. :wink:





Not exactly, and that isn't why we isolate strains.

The same thing happens every time you use multispore inoculation, which could just as accurately be called multi-strain inoculation.  They don't compete any more than the thousands of hyphae that emerge from an inoculation site.  I've done this hundreds of times. 

Try it different ways just for grins and giggles.  Inoculate two holes of a jar with one strain and the other two holes with another.  Or, inoculate each of the 4 holes with a separate syringe(strain), for four strains per jar.  You can mix them at spawning or mix them at inoculation.  Do a few each way.  I doubt you'll be able to tell any difference between them all, at least no more than you'd normally see in a multispore grow.
RR




Why would people isolate strains if they weren't worried that a lesser, competing strain would eventually dominate (or compete) for their grow?

You've entirely missed my point. Perhaps I was unclear.

I never said anything to suggest that combining different 'Strains' would be very different from using any other multispore/bulk method. But I'm not gonna pretend that using myc from two different varieties is the most efficient way to grow a cube either. AND to combine them this late in the game, when fruiting is imminent? It is a waste of energy. Perhaps it is irrelevant in your eyes, but it is energy that could be put immediately into colonization and fruiting.

I'd be interested in seeing the differences between the two 'Strains' he bought. Perhaps one is more prolific than the other...

You'd rather play Mad Scientist with his grow. Nothing wrong with that. 'Strains' bore you.

I completely agree with what you've said. And yet, I still stand by my previous statements.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


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InvisibleDoc_T
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Re: One monotub two strains? [Re: Rose]
    #10591264 - 06/29/09 07:45 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Cervantes said:
I completely agree with what you've said. And yet, I still stand by my previous statements.




There should be a Blue Ribbon for posts like that.


--------------------
You make it all possible. Doesn't it feel good?

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Offlinekinderfeld11
kill your master


Registered: 12/13/08
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Re: One monotub two strains? [Re: Doc_T]
    #10591880 - 06/29/09 11:25 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Yea for real two trusted cultivators with different point of views. I am almost more confused than when I posted this LOL.

That is a super sweet pic of PE/EQ!

So cervantes you CAN agree that mixing strains will reach the same potential as just innocing with any one strains?

This subject still seems to be quite contradictory...as I found in my searching as well.

The last thing I want is energy/yield not being used to full potential if that is the case.

I think dividing the tub is best options as of now. From all that I have read I am still iffy on this whole mixing strains thing.


But to be clear RR you are saying that there will be absolutley no difference as far as potential growth/yield (other than what the different strains allow)by innoc with a one multispore strain compared to multiple multispores strains?

Quote:

Cervantes said:
I never said anything to suggest that combining different 'Strains' would be very different from using any other multispore/bulk method.

But I'm not gonna pretend that using myc from two different varieties is the most efficient way to grow a cube either.




I am just confused by this so using more than one strain is as good as using any multispore but it is not the most efficient way to grow a cube, if it is the same or there is not difference how can one be more or less efficient than the other? Or are you talking about mixing innoc in that first sentance and mixing spawn in the second?

So your ok with mixing innoc, but not spawn?


EDIT: Ok yea I am still REALLY confused...


--------------------
Cowards die many times before their deaths;
The valiant never taste of death but once.
Of all the wonders that I yet have heard.
It seems to me most strange that men should fear;
Seeing that death, a necessary end,
Will come when it will come.
(Julius Caesar, Act II, Scene 2).
:mushroom2:Host of new 'Kinderfeld's Kindness' monthly contest.:mushroom2:

Edited by kinderfeld11 (06/29/09 11:39 AM)

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OfflineRoseM
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Re: One monotub two strains? [Re: kinderfeld11]
    #10592116 - 06/29/09 12:18 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Just 'cause we have trusted cultivator tags doesn't mean we're experts in all things. I did most of my cultivation research over 5 years ago, and things change quickly in this hobby. When in doubt, listen to RR.

If RR says it won't make a difference, he's probably right... or close enough to being correct that you'll hardly notice a difference. It really comes down to what YOU want to get out of your grow, 'cause either way, you should get plenty of shrooms.

By the time you're spawning your tub, It does seem a little late in the game to intentionally mix two different 'Strains', chances are slim that the two 'strains' would cross with one another, since all the viable spores have already mated... so both 'Strains' will be competing for the tub's substrate, and nobody knows exactly what you'll end up with. Neither RR nor I knows for sure exactly what will happen. Neither of us has played with your  jars. We just like giving advice...

If you knocked up any jar with the spores of two different 'strain' syringes (like RR suggested), it'd be no different than multispore innoc from one syringe... EXCEPT you wouldn't know exactly what kind of shrooms you'd get. One 'Strain' may dominate the other... OR there is a chance you'd get a PE/EQ like combo... which is pretty fucking cool, but hardly a guarantee.

But if you have never grown either 'strain' and you think they'll both look similar (PE looks unique so it is easier to tell when it crosses with something else) how the hell will you know what you ended up with?

If you wish to cross 'Strains' there are better, more accurate and more specific ways to do it... so you can know for sure that you actually crossed them.

I see no reason to mix them unless you want to experiment. If you DO want to experiment, it would probably be fun to try... and you'll still get shrooms assuming you set your tub up properly.

By keeping them separate, it will be easier to know which is which, and if you wish to make and trade prints, it will be easier to know exactly what you will be trading. It is much easier to trade a Texas print than it is to trade a print that might be Texas or it might be Koh Samui.

Also, if one of your spawn jars is less productive, or slower than the other... you may get better results from BOTH if you keep them separate... because they'll both have a chance to fruit at their own pace.

So, if you are interested in seeing BOTH 'Strains', keep 'em separate. If you are interested in mixing and matching, try that. It'd be a fun experiment.

Usually people asking questions in the Cultivation Forum want to avoid taking chances. Mixing two different 'strains' is taking an extra chance... because, aside from mushrooms, you won't exactly know what you got. I believe RR is correct, however, when he suggests it will have little effect on your ultimate bulk.

I hope that helps.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


Edited by Rose (06/29/09 01:15 PM)

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Offlinekinderfeld11
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Re: One monotub two strains? [Re: Rose]
    #10593746 - 06/29/09 06:11 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Excellent post. Absolutely EXCELLENT.

Very interesting not many people experiment with this, I guess it's because like you said, there are better ways to cross strains. However If the only 'chance' taken being taken is not knowing the kind of mushroom, seems like a small chance to me.

I still don't see why I don't see many 'split' tubs. Why would people not more variety of mushrooms and prints? If the potential yield is just the same...

Thanks for everyone's help I will be dividing them, and I will post pics so you guys can see. I am just a new grower though I don't eat shrooms (for real) so I wouldn't be able to tell you any of that kind of info...

This got me to thinking maybe a very large 5 or 10 strain (or mixed strain(s) :smile:) monotub will be a future project :laugh: 10 different strain spore prints from 1 grow sounds good to me.

Wish me luck.

Edited by kinderfeld11 (06/29/09 06:18 PM)

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