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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
Re: Smart Move On The Climate Bill [Re: johnm214]
    #10597994 - 06/30/09 02:03 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
Could you explain or cite the provision of the bill that will help "renewable energy"?  How does this effect AFOAF's criticism?




It affects his criticism by demonstrating that, leaving completely out of the picture any debate on climate change, the bill is still a great step towards better policies and practices regarding the sustainability and health of the environment.

A quick search on an overview of the climate bill found this, a list of the key components of the bill according to :

Quote:


http://www.treehugger.com/files/2009/06/climate-bill-vote-what-you-need-know.php
1. A National Renewable Energy Standard
The bill would implement a renewable energy standard for the US that would "require electric utilities to meet 20% of their electricity demand through renewable energy sources and energy efficiency by 2020." Which is a solid, if mild target.




I'm out of time right now so I'm going to have to leave this at that, but if the bill actually does require that (I'm sure there is more as well), then I think it would be clearly obvious that the bill would be helping renewable energy, unless all electric utilities are already fulfilling it, in which case, it at least still helps it by securing it as the expected bottom-line...


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Offlineinkblot
Stranger
Registered: 01/11/09
Posts: 220
Last seen: 13 years, 7 months
Re: Smart Move On The Climate Bill [Re: djmako7]
    #10598012 - 06/30/09 02:05 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

djmako7 said:
Quote:

fireworks_god said:

because it hasn't even been a half-year.






Yes it has. He was sworn into office January 20 2009.

It is currently June 28 2009.

You are a perfect example of our failing schools.

When you see the unemployment rate continue to rise and tax increases on everything such as water, electricity and fossil fuels go ahead and tell everyone to relax and smoke a joint which is illegal.




He was right, it won't be a half-year until July 20th. And why the hell are you on Shroomery if you're condemning illegal drug use?

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Offlinelonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.
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Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
Last seen: 13 years, 2 days
Re: Smart Move On The Climate Bill [Re: inkblot]
    #10647282 - 07/09/09 12:48 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

"President Barack Obama’s push for quick action by Congress on climate change legislation suffered a setback on Thursday when the U.S. Senate committee leading the drive delayed work on the bill until September."

:toast:


"Senate Environment and Public Works Committee Chairman Barbara Boxer said her self-imposed deadline of early August for finishing writing a bill to combat global warming has been put off until after Congress returns from a recess that ends in early September."

“We’ll do it as soon as we get back” from that break, Boxer told reporters. Asked if this delay jeopardizes chances the Senate will pass a bill this year, Boxer said, “Not a bit … we’ll be in (session) until Christmas, so I’m not worried about it.”

:sad:



http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/09/AR2009070901998_pf.html

Obama wanted this Passed right away! Does this mean We're All Gonna Die!


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America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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OfflineVisionary Tools
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Registered: 06/23/07
Posts: 7,953
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
Re: Smart Move On The Climate Bill [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10647382 - 07/09/09 01:13 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

fireworks_god said:

Imagine that, they actually seem to be thinking of governing in a much more methodical, organized way that I'm sure we'll see will produce great results.




You think it is methodical, organized governance to pass a giant 1,000 page bill that nobody has read in a panic over a fictional problem?  Yep, keep hitting that bongzors.




You have to be egregiously wrong for Zappa to be right.

Last time there was a hundreds of pages long bill passed with no one reading it was the patriot act. And look how much america benefitted from that!

China is not concerned with CO2 output. This enviromentalism cult seems to constantly ignore the fact that the worlds factory is going to continue business as usual, and that destroying what few manufacturing jobs are left in the western world will somehow save the planet. All it will do is force us all into poverty.

I don't want much in my life. Just a farm, a house, electricity and water. But no. Thanks to the carbon taxes, there will be fines for any small farmers wanting to own livestock. No cars, no heating, no fires, (no way can smoking be allowed, that's a carbon crime!)

And too many gullible fools who really want to keep the planet in a beautiful state fail to realise that carbon dixoide is not the enemy. Toxic metals are the enemy. Drugged water is the enemy. Plastics are the enemy. Plus, if you think poverty=less carbon footprint, then look at Africa. Dusty, war and disease ridden, cities of electronic rubbish with burning smoke (to extract scrap metal). Hell on earth.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: Smart Move On The Climate Bill [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #10647505 - 07/09/09 01:33 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Visionary Tools said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

fireworks_god said:

Imagine that, they actually seem to be thinking of governing in a much more methodical, organized way that I'm sure we'll see will produce great results.




You think it is methodical, organized governance to pass a giant 1,000 page bill that nobody has read in a panic over a fictional problem?  Yep, keep hitting that bongzors.




You have to be egregiously wrong for Zappa to be right.

Last time there was a hundreds of pages long bill passed with no one reading it was the patriot act. And look how much america benefitted from that!




Lie.  It was the stimulus bill.  Nice try.  And you surekly aren't referring to the Patriot Act renewal, because that was available to read for quite some time before it was passed.  Do you pay attention or just randomly believe bullshit?
Quote:



China is not concerned with CO2 output. This enviromentalism cult seems to constantly ignore the fact that the worlds factory is going to continue business as usual, and that destroying what few manufacturing jobs are left in the western world will somehow save the planet. All it will do is force us all into poverty.


  Yep.
Quote:



I don't want much in my life. Just a farm, a house, electricity and water. But no. Thanks to the carbon taxes, there will be fines for any small farmers wanting to own livestock. No cars, no heating, no fires, (no way can smoking be allowed, that's a carbon crime!)



I don't think they are going to be able to restrict wood burning so you'll be OK theer.  Of course, it is massively more polluting but hey, it's all good.
Quote:



And too many gullible fools who really want to keep the planet in a beautiful state fail to realise that carbon dixoide is not the enemy. Toxic metals are the enemy. Drugged water is the enemy. Plastics are the enemy. Plus, if you think poverty=less carbon footprint, then look at Africa. Dusty, war and disease ridden, cities of electronic rubbish with burning smoke (to extract scrap metal). Hell on earth.




Yep.  CO2 is no pollutant.  Massive amounts of SO2, now that's another matter.  Remember the Olympics?

Holy shit we agree that this is nonsense.  Whodathunkit?


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OfflineVisionary Tools
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Registered: 06/23/07
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Re: Smart Move On The Climate Bill [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10649065 - 07/09/09 06:52 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Visionary Tools said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

fireworks_god said:

Imagine that, they actually seem to be thinking of governing in a much more methodical, organized way that I'm sure we'll see will produce great results.




You think it is methodical, organized governance to pass a giant 1,000 page bill that nobody has read in a panic over a fictional problem?  Yep, keep hitting that bongzors.




You have to be egregiously wrong for Zappa to be right.

Last time there was a hundreds of pages long bill passed with no one reading it was the patriot act. And look how much america benefitted from that!




Lie.  It was the stimulus bill.  Nice try.  And you surekly aren't referring to the Patriot Act renewal, because that was available to read for quite some time before it was passed.  Do you pay attention or just randomly believe bullshit?
Quote:



There was a bill that went recently, and yeah, I forgot what it's about. Was it on cyber bullying? Either way, it was hundreds of pages long, and no one in the branch of government said "Hey, this is hundreds of pages long. We need weeks to read it so we can be properly informed."

Like the first patriot act. In two weeks after the WTC attacks it was rushed in, and voted, and went through. The problem here is polititians vote things through without even pretending to be considerate.

Quote:


    I don't want much in my life. Just a farm, a house, electricity and water. But no. Thanks to the carbon taxes, there will be fines for any small farmers wanting to own livestock. No cars, no heating, no fires, (no way can smoking be allowed, that's a carbon crime!)


I don't think they are going to be able to restrict wood burning so you'll be OK theer.  Of course, it is massively more polluting but hey, it's all good.




Yeah, and TBH I prefer the smell of Pembroke coal, but thanks to Maggie Thatcher, we're not allowed a mining industry, our tin, coal and copper mines are flooded, and would be massively expensive to repair.

It sounds absurd right, who'd try and ban fire, but when carbon taxes are going to be levied on everything (food, fertilisiers, fuel) that's to do with carbon and carbon dioxide burning things is going to be banned as well. Or severely fined.

I'm opposed to it, because it is a two pronged slavery attack. It hurts people's wallets, and it forces CO2 producing jobs (all human activity produces CO2) to China, meaning they won't have money to buy things from China, so the slaves there will suffer even more than they have to.

Here's the slavery bill, S2191, with a good breakdown. This should explain to everyone this is not about saving mother Gaia/Terra, this is about forcing you and everyone you know and love into slavery.


http://www.roguegovernment.com/news.php?id=5188


Quote:

The push towards a global carbon credit mechanism continues to be one of the top agendas of the world elite. Despite the fact that numerous scientific studies have concluded that the entire solar system is getting warmer as part of a natural cycle, non-stop propaganda from the major corporate news networks continue to blame man made carbon emissions for planetary warming. In addition, the establishment media pushes unfounded claims that global warming will result in a myriad of environmental disasters. Despite the fact that man made global warming is a complete fraud, the world elite are selling fear as a way for them to bring in a world carbon credit enslavement system. This carbon credit system will be used as a funding mechanism to consolidate wealth into the hands of the big global corporations and to potentially fund regional and global governmental institutions.

In 2005, the European Union began the foundational steps to setup a credit system based off of carbon emissions through the European Union Emission Trading Scheme. Now, they are seeking to expand that system to include airliners. Peter Liese a German member of the European Parliament even stated that they want this carbon credit scheme to be global in scale. Below is a blurb from the International Herald Tribune, in which he advocates the need for this carbon credit enslavement system.

A bold attempt by the European Union to impose caps on aircraft emissions received a boost on Tuesday as legislators voted to raise the costs on airlines and to include international flights sooner than expected.

The measures, approved by the European Parliament, are fiercely opposed by the United States and the airline industry, which could cost companies billions of dollars and lead to sharp price rises for passengers. On the opposing side, some environmental groups criticized the proposed measure, which still must be approved by individual EU states, as far too timid.

But members of the European Parliament said that regulating aircraft pollution would set a important precedent and could be emulated by other countries.

"We want a worldwide system as soon as possible," said Peter Liese, a German member of parliament who helped to guide the legislation through parliament, which met in Strasbourg, France. "There must be an end to the status quo that nothing is done in the aviation sector and which has predominated for many years now," Liese said.

As the European Union pushes the carbon credit scam forward in Europe, the United States Senate is now pushing Senate Bill 2191 which is called America’s Climate Security Act of 2007. The bill originally proposed by Joe Lieberman and co-sponsored by establishment hacks on both sides of the phony right-left political paradigm if passed into law will establish a draconian carbon credit system here in the United States that will give the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) extraordinary enforcement powers over this system. Below is a full analysis of this bill which promises nothing short of total enslavement.

Facilities that emit or import fuel that could potentially emit more than 10,000 metric tons of carbon dioxide per year would be affected by this bill. This is described in section 4 of the bill and labels these facilities as a “covered facility” and they would be forced to abide by the rules and regulations established by this bill. Considering that the average automobile emits approximately six tons of carbon dioxide on a yearly basis, 10,000 metric tons is really not a whole lot of carbon dioxide. The relevant subsections of section 4 are listed below.

(5) CARBON DIOXIDE EQUIVALENT- The term `carbon dioxide equivalent' means, for each greenhouse gas, the quantity of the greenhouse gas that the Administrator determines makes the same contribution to global warming as 1 metric ton of carbon dioxide.

(7) COVERED FACILITY- The term `covered facility' means--

(A) any facility within the electric power sector that contains fossil fuel-fired electricity generating units that together emit more than 10,000 carbon dioxide equivalents of greenhouse gas in any year;

(B) any facility within the industrial sector that emits more than 10,000 carbon dioxide equivalents of greenhouse gas in any year;

(C) any facility that in any year produces, or any entity that in any year imports, petroleum- or coal-based transportation fuel, the use of which will emit more than 10,000 carbon dioxide equivalents of greenhouse gas, assuming no capture and permanent sequestration of that gas; or

(D) any facility that in any year produces, or any entity that in any year imports, nonfuel chemicals that will emit more than 10,000 carbon dioxide equivalents of greenhouse gas, assuming no capture and destruction or permanent sequestration of that gas.

Based off of the definition of a “covered facility”, the bill defines what an “affected facility” is defined as. It defines any “covered facility” as also being an “affected facility” but the broad language goes well beyond that. In the definition it essentially states that the Administrator of the EPA can actually designate whatever facility they want to designate as to be an affected facility if it emits a greenhouse gas. If you have farm animals, operate a fireplace or any number of things, the EPA at their discretion could declare that you are an “affected facility” and you will be forced to abide by the regulations set forth in the bill. It also states that “in general”, this is what is defined as an “affected facility”, so the bill allows the EPA to bend the rules and use an outrageous amount of discretion. So if you get on the bad side of the people at the EPA, they will have the power to designate your place of business or home as an “affected facility” even if you do not emit or import fuel that could potentially emit over 10,000 tons of carbon dioxide.

SEC. 1102. DEFINITIONS.

In this subtitle:

(1) AFFECTED FACILITY-

(A) IN GENERAL- The term `affected facility' means--

(i) a covered facility;

(ii) another facility that emits a greenhouse gas, as determined by the Administrator; and

(iii) at the option of the Administrator, a vehicle fleet with emissions of more than 10,000 carbon dioxide equivalents per year, assuming no double-counting of emissions.

Any facility considered to be an “affected facility” would be forced to report annually and quarterly an obscene amount of data to the Administrator of the Environmental Protection Agency. The bill establishes a federal greenhouse gas registry where this information would be collected. Section 1103 describes the reporting requirements of “affected facilities” which would force these facilities to report the quantity and type of fossil fuels utilized, the amount of electricity generated or consumed, the amount of greenhouse gases emitted and more. These facilities would undoubtedly be forced to operate under the carbon credit enslavement system. The full list is shown below.

SEC. 1103. REPORTING REQUIREMENTS.

(a) In General- Subject to this section, each affected facility shall submit to the Administrator, for inclusion in the Registry, periodic reports, including annual and quarterly data, that--

(1) include the quantity and type of fossil fuels, including feedstock fossil fuels, that are extracted, produced, refined, imported, exported, or consumed at or by the facility;

(2) include the quantity of hydrofluorocarbons, perfluorocarbons, sulfur hexafluoride, nitrous oxide, carbon dioxide that has been captured and sequestered, and other greenhouse gases generated, produced, imported, exported, or consumed at or by the facility;

(3) include the quantity of electricity generated, imported, exported, or consumed by or at the facility, and information on the quantity of greenhouse gases emitted when the imported, exported, or consumed electricity was generated, as determined by the Administrator;

(4) include the aggregate quantity of all greenhouse gas emissions from sources at the facility, including stationary combustion source emissions, process emissions, and fugitive emissions;

(5) include greenhouse gas emissions expressed in metric tons of each greenhouse gas emitted and in the quantity of carbon dioxide equivalents of each greenhouse gas emitted;

(6) include a list and description of sources of greenhouse gas emissions at the facility;

(7) quantify greenhouse gas emissions in accordance with the measurement standards established under section 1104;

(8) include other data necessary for accurate and complete accounting of greenhouse gas emissions, as determined by the Administrator;

(9) include an appropriate certification regarding the accuracy and completeness of reported data, as determined by the Administrator; and

(10) are submitted electronically to the Administrator, in such form and to such extent as may be required by the Administrator.

Failure to abide by these reporting requirements will result in draconian fines. Section 1106 declares that the Administrator of the Environmental Protection Agency could bring civil action against owners or operators of facilities that do not abide by the regulations outlined in this bill. It also outlines a fine of $25,000 each day of non-compliance.

SEC. 1106. ENFORCEMENT.

(a) Civil Actions- The Administrator may bring a civil action in United States district court against the owner or operator of an affected facility that fails to comply with any requirement of this subtitle.

(b) Penalty- Any person that has violated or is violating this subtitle shall be subject to a civil penalty of not more than $25,000 per day of each violation.

In Section 1201 the bill gives the Administrator of the EPA authority to enforce a total amount of carbon dioxide emissions allowed in the country. Each year, the EPA will enforce rules in which fewer total carbon dioxide emissions will be allowed. It even states that carbon emissions will not be considered a property right.

SEC. 1201. EMISSION ALLOWANCE ACCOUNT.

(a) In General- The Administrator shall establish a separate quantity of emission allowances for each of calendar years 2012 through 2050.

(b) Identification Numbers- The Administrator shall assign to each emission allowance established under subsection (a) a unique identification number that includes the calendar year for which that emission allowance was established.

(c) Legal Status of Emission Allowances-

(1) IN GENERAL- An emission allowance shall not be a property right.

(2) TERMINATION OR LIMITATION- Nothing in this Act or any other provision of law limits the authority of the United States to terminate or limit an emission allowance.

(3) OTHER PROVISIONS UNAFFECTED- Nothing in this Act relating to emission allowances shall affect the application of, or compliance with, any other provision of law to or by a covered facility.

Even more ridiculous is that facilities that emit more carbon than they are allowed will be subject to more outrageous fines under the authority of the EPA.

The bill states in section 2501 that “affected facilities” would be able to use international allowances or credits to satisfy up to 15% of their carbon emission allowance. This indicates without a doubt that the grand plan is to have an international carbon credit system in place. Why would they include this section in the bill, if there wasn’t discussion of plans for an international system? Section 2501 is listed below.

SEC. 2501. USE OF INTERNATIONAL ALLOWANCES OR CREDITS.

The owner or operator of a covered facility may satisfy up to 15 percent of the allowance submission requirement of the covered facility under section 1202(a) by submitting allowances or credits obtained on a foreign greenhouse gas emissions trading market, on the condition that the Administrator has certified the market in accordance with the regulations promulgated pursuant to section 2502(a).

The bill would also establish a nonprofit private corporation called the “Climate Change Credit Corporation” that would essentially collect money based off of carbon credit auctions. This is outlined in Section 4201 of the bill which is shown below.

SEC. 4201. ESTABLISHMENT.

(a) In General- There is established, as a nonprofit corporation without stock, a corporation to be known as the `Climate Change Credit Corporation'.

(b) Treatment- The Corporation shall not be considered to be an agency or establishment of the Federal Government.

This private corporation in the bill would be run by a board of directors composed of 5 people all appointed by the President and confirmed by the Senate. Essentially, the President and the Senate would have a staged theatrical confirmation hearing much like they do when a new Chairman of the Federal Reserve is selected. It is specifically stated that this institution will not be an agency or establishment of the U.S. government, so therefore it would not be directly accountable to the people. Since that’s the case, why even have a staged confirmation hearing if the corporation is going to exist outside of the scope of the U.S. government?

The bill does state that the intention of the corporation is to use the money they collect to be used towards alternative fuels, but since it operates outside of the scope of the federal government, there is no way to determine how this private corporation would be held accountable for their actions. It would essentially give them a blank check to funnel money back into the military industrial complex under the guise of researching non-carbon emitting alternative fuels. Even the language in section 4401, states that “in general”, the corporation will use the amounts collected via their carbon credit auctions but it doesn’t force them to do this.

SEC. 4401. IN GENERAL.

For each calendar year, the Corporation shall use the amounts described in section 4301(c) and 4302(b) to carry out the programs established under this subtitle, as follows:

(1) Not more than 45 percent of the funds shall be used to carry out the zero- or low-carbon energy technologies program under section 4402.

(2) Not more than 35 percent of the funds shall be used as follows:

(A) Not more than 28 percent shall be used to carry out the advanced coal and sequestration technologies program under section 4403.

(B) Not more than 7 percent shall be used to carry out the cellulosic biomass ethanol technology deployment programs under section 4404.

(3) Not more than 20 percent shall be used to carry out the advanced technology vehicles manufacturing incentive program under section 4405.

The market of carbon credits will be overseen by a new institution called the “Carbon Market Efficiency Board”. This board will essentially serve as a price fixer for the carbon credit market. Section 2601 through Section 2605 describes the duties of the board. The bill gives the board the ability to set interest rates on the borrowing of carbon credits and to determine if at certain periods of time, more carbon credits are needed to ensure the economy functions properly. It will essentially be a Federal Reserve System for carbon credits, and they will be given the power to manipulate the carbon credit market as they see fit.

Boiling the bill down to brass tax, it gives the EPA draconian powers to determine who and who doesn’t need to abide by the regulations in this bill. The language is so broad that the EPA can literally decide that any business or facility must abide by these rules and regulations at their discretion even if they fall outside the scope of a “covered facility”. The EPA could even decide that homes with fireplaces could be considered an “affected facility” by the bill considering the amount of discretion they are given in determining what is considered to be an “affected facility”. Whomever the EPA decides is affected by this bill must report all sorts of ridiculous information detailing their carbon footprint to the EPA on a quarterly basis. It gives the EPA extraordinary powers to enforce a carbon credit system and gives them the mandate to levy draconian fines on those in non-compliance with this legislation. There is no exemption for humans or animals which naturally emit carbon dioxide so the EPA at some point could even include employees and farm animals as contributing to a facilities carbon footprint. The broad language in the bill gives a blank check to the EPA to be the nation’s carbon police where people would need permission from the government by way of carbon credits to conduct normal everyday activities including breathing.

The bill also sets up the carbon credit system so that fewer and fewer carbon credits are issued on a yearly basis. This will not be a problem for the big multinational corporations, but it will be a huge problem for smaller and medium sized businesses trying to grow. The “Climate Change Credit Corporation” which the bill establishes would collect large amounts of money by auctioning off increasingly more valuable carbon credits. The bill authorizes this corporation to auction off an increasing amount of carbon credits over time. Considering that the bill mandates that fewer and fewer carbon credits will be made available over time, these carbon credits will become increasingly more valuable and more money will be funneled into this tax exempt corporation.

The “Carbon Market Efficiency Board” that the bill establishes would serve to be price fixers for the market of carbon credits. Much like how the Federal Reserve manipulates the value of Federal Reserve Notes, the Carbon Market Efficiency Board will manipulate the value of carbon credits.

This is a horrible piece of legislation and essentially gives the EPA the ability to enforce a credit system on life itself. This is nothing more than an enslavement system which will consolidate more wealth into the hands of the military industrial complex and ensure that smaller and medium sized businesses can’t grow and compete with them. This bill represents nothing more than out of control corporate fascism giving broad police powers to the EPA, establishing a board with the power to manipulate the value of carbon credits and establishing a nonprofit corporation with no definitive government accountability that will have a great deal of wealth funneled into it by auctioning off what in the future will be increasingly more valuable carbon credits. Joe Lieberman and the associated gaggle of the bill’s co-sponsors are traitors and care not about the American people or their welfare by introducing this legislation.

It is clear that this global carbon credit system is at the very forefront of the elite’s agenda to completely enslave the middle class and poor in developed nations. This bill needs to be defeated, and the traitors that are supporting this should be removed from office immediately.




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