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Offlinetittysnacks74
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The word "Mystical" has become a slur on this forum
    #10577444 - 06/26/09 03:40 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

I have noticed the trend of equating mystics with philosophical snake-oil salesmen and self-righteous illusionists, however I do not believe this to be the case. The definition of "Mysticism" that I ascribe to is thus:

"Mysticism (from the Greek μυστικός, mystikos, an initiate of a mystery religion[1]) is the pursuit of communion with, identity with, or conscious awareness of an ultimate reality, divinity, spiritual truth, or God through direct experience, intuition, instinct or insight. Mysticism usually centers on a practice or practices intended to nurture those experiences or awareness."

Mysticism in its truest sense is a religious schema that, rather than emphasizing unyielding faith in doctrine, attempts to illicit in a devotee the direct experience of whatsoever spiritual truth they believe in.

As far as I am concerned, this is a personal, devotional belief structure that has nothing to do with pretending to read minds or raise the dead. Furthermore, it does not seem to be at odds with empirical and logical studies of natural phenomena. It seems perfectly feasible to objectively study the sciences and maintain a direct relationship with the paranormal.

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OfflineFraggin
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Re: The word "Mystical" has become a slur on this forum [Re: tittysnacks74]
    #10577455 - 06/26/09 03:41 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Mystical and Mysticism are not even closely related....
Or... ARRRRE they?  :strokebeard2:

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The word "Mystical" has become a slur on this forum [Re: tittysnacks74]
    #10577459 - 06/26/09 03:42 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

however I do not believe this to be the case.

I experience my Oatmeal directly. :fairy:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offline2859558484
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Re: The word "Mystical" has become a slur on this forum [Re: Icelander]
    #10577517 - 06/26/09 03:52 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

this thread is mystical


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The word "Mystical" has become a slur on this forum [Re: 2859558484]
    #10577527 - 06/26/09 03:54 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

This whole fucking forum is mistakical.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The word "Mystical" has become a slur on this forum [Re: tittysnacks74]
    #10579577 - 06/26/09 10:53 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

The paranormal and Psi Phenomena have ZERO to do with mysticism proper. This forum used to explore this area, but few here have even taken the time to understand the meaning of the word mysticism, let alone compare say Greek, Hebrew and Indian schools of mysticism. Some people who took massive doses of LSD along with a system which helped them contain and successfully directing the enhanced energy sometimes incurred experiences which  can be defined as mystical. The problem here is a reluctance to understand the term and a willingness to belittle what is clearly not comprehended. The most profound writers of philosophy have incorporated mysticism as a pivotal point of their philosophies whether or not one agrees with their interpretations - Plato, Plotinus, Yoga, Vedanta, Abhidharma, Sufi, Kabbalah,  Eckhart, Schopenhauer, Tillich, or Eckhart again in the 20th century, etc.. If one is not an Introverted Intuitive Type (according to the MBTI) then one is not going to have classic mystical experiences for the most part, and then those persons outside of the those typologies will simply doubt their existence, or dismiss and demean them for a variety of psychological reasons. American culture is dominatedby the non-mystical types, and that dominance is reflected in this forum as well. Such people are Extroverted and as such have the tendency of expressing actions in the world of social-physical phenomena, not psychospiritual or psychocosmic phenomena. This is a distinction, not an evaluation.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: The word "Mystical" has become a slur on this forum [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #10579615 - 06/26/09 11:03 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Do mushrooms ever turn extroverts into introverts?  :bigjoint:


--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!

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OfflineTrepiodos
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Re: The word "Mystical" has become a slur on this forum [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #10580625 - 06/27/09 06:39 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
The paranormal and Psi Phenomena have ZERO to do with mysticism proper.



Mysticism proper?  No, you mean mysticism as Markos has internalized the meaning.

Quote:

This forum used to explore this area, but few here have even taken the time to understand the meaning of the word mysticism,



Again, 'mysticism' as Markos defines it.  In order to properly communicate, one needs to choose words which have a commonly understood meaning between the participants in the communication.  Hiding behind YOUR definition and claiming in so many words that others are too willfully ignorant to understand your view on the subject is in a word, malarkey.

Quote:

The problem here is a reluctance to understand the term



Bullshit.

Quote:

and a willingness to belittle what is clearly not comprehended.



Perhaps its a tendency to belittle what cannot be properly communicated by those who have a fundamental deficiency in critical thought and paper it over with the nomenclature of mystic writings.

Quote:

If one is not an Introverted Intuitive Type (according to the MBTI) then one is not going to have classic mystical experiences for the most part,



Another load of bovine fecal matter.

Quote:

and then those persons outside of the those typologies will simply doubt their existence, or dismiss and demean them for a variety of psychological reasons.



Do you consider analysis of mystical experiences and the application of reason to said experiences 'psychological reasons' to dismiss them?  If so, explain, in plain terms, avoiding your usual obscure terms and references to arcane writings.

Quote:

American culture is dominatedby the non-mystical types,



Either you are blind to the preeminence of forms of mysticism in American culture or your definition of 'mystical' is different than that held by others.  I'm going with the latter.  Hence, your inability to effectively communicate persuasively with critical thinkers on the matter.

Quote:

and that dominance is reflected in this forum as well. Such people are Extroverted and as such have the tendency of expressing actions in the world of social-physical phenomena,



As an INTROVERT and a critical thinker, I can assure you that being an extrovert has nothing to do with pulling away the veil of mumbo jumbo and showing myself and anyone else that the scent wafting from behind the wizard's visage is alimentary in nature.


--------------------

And as things fell apart,
Nobody paid much attention...

- David Byrne, '(Nothing But) Flowers' from the Talking Heads' album, 'Naked'

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: The word "Mystical" has become a slur on this forum [Re: Trepiodos]
    #10581137 - 06/27/09 10:33 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Trepiodos said:
Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
The paranormal and Psi Phenomena have ZERO to do with mysticism proper.



Mysticism proper?  No, you mean mysticism as Markos has internalized the meaning.



No.  Mysticism as it is properly defined:



Mysticism:
1: the experience of mystical union or direct communion with ultimate reality reported by mystics
2: the belief that direct knowledge of God, spiritual truth, or ultimate reality can be attained through subjective experience (as intuition or insight)


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The word "Mystical" has become a slur on this forum [Re: daytripper23]
    #10581215 - 06/27/09 11:07 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

daytripper23 said:
Do mushrooms ever turn extroverts into introverts?  :bigjoint:



 
Based on the MBTI data, and upon Jungian theory on which it is based, constitutional types do not change across the lifespan. One goal of Individuation is to move closer to the centerline on the I-E, N-S, T-F, and P-J axes. I can extrovert (verb) my attention when I have to, but I will never be, constitutionally, an Extrovert (noun).


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Offlinetittysnacks74
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Re: The word "Mystical" has become a slur on this forum [Re: Trepiodos]
    #10581603 - 06/27/09 01:22 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:


Perhaps its a tendency to belittle what cannot be properly communicated by those who have a fundamental deficiency in critical thought and paper it over with the nomenclature of mystic writings.




To assume that all who do not see eye to eye with you in terms of something so multifarious and ineffable as the nature and perception of reality are "deficient in critical thought" is nothing more than a boisterous manifestation of your own prejudice and unwillingness to consider other viewpoints.

Furthermore, the definition of mysticism proper is available in the original post, so your insinuation that we hide behind personal and incommunicable definitions as a defense mechanism is entirely fucking null and unfounded. Thank for contributing nothing but prejudiced, misinformed mudslinging to this topic, but in the future, please troll elsewhere.

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OfflineEpigallo
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Re: The word "Mystical" has become a slur on this forum [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #10595091 - 06/29/09 10:50 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

If one is not an Introverted Intuitive Type (according to the MBTI) then one is not going to have classic mystical experiences for the most part




Really? But all of these systems like yoga and buddhism can't just be meant for one personality type. Doesn't virtually everyone have at least some degree of mystical experience on psychedelics?

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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: The word "Mystical" has become a slur on this forum [Re: Silversoul]
    #10595114 - 06/29/09 10:53 PM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

Trepiodos said:
Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
The paranormal and Psi Phenomena have ZERO to do with mysticism proper.



Mysticism proper?  No, you mean mysticism as Markos has internalized the meaning.



No.  Mysticism as it is properly defined:



Mysticism:
1: the experience of mystical union or direct communion with ultimate reality reported by mystics
2: the belief that direct knowledge of God, spiritual truth, or ultimate reality can be attained through subjective experience (as intuition or insight)




...which does not appear to be mysticism as Markos has internalized at all and rather exactly what he said it isnt (paranormal).


Personally, I use wikipedia for definitions.  :shrug:

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: The word "Mystical" has become a slur on this forum [Re: DieCommie]
    #10595458 - 06/30/09 12:07 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Qubit said:
Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

Trepiodos said:
Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
The paranormal and Psi Phenomena have ZERO to do with mysticism proper.



Mysticism proper?  No, you mean mysticism as Markos has internalized the meaning.



No.  Mysticism as it is properly defined:



Mysticism:
1: the experience of mystical union or direct communion with ultimate reality reported by mystics
2: the belief that direct knowledge of God, spiritual truth, or ultimate reality can be attained through subjective experience (as intuition or insight)




...which does not appear to be mysticism as Markos has internalized at all and rather exactly what he said it isnt (paranormal).



No.  There is nothing in that definition about telekinesis, UFOs, magic, or any other such "fluffy" ideas.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: The word "Mystical" has become a slur on this forum [Re: Silversoul]
    #10595518 - 06/30/09 12:22 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

'direct communion with ultimate reality', 'knowledge of god, spritual truth or ultimate reality' seem paranormal to me.  I dont really know though I guess.

However I thought about how Markos said he takes his definition from the ancient greeks (and others).  I dont know anything about greek philosophy.  But I thought of how they coined the term 'atom', and they defined it as the smallest particle - something that is indivisible.  Yet today we all refer to an atom as an entity that is divisible and not the smallest particle.  If I were to use the greek definition I would be completely misunderstood.  Though the etymology is interesting, the modern masses are ultimately what defines a word.  Appealing to the ancient greek's definitions of our words leads to unnecessary communication break down.  I hesitate to call Budweiser beer, but the population at large does so I go along with it.  What the population calls mysticism is very much ghosts, spirits, esp and the paranormal.  What Markos described as 'greek mysticism' seems more inline with what moderns would call 'spirituality'.

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InvisibleZanthius
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Re: The word "Mystical" has become a slur on this forum [Re: DieCommie]
    #10596374 - 06/30/09 06:21 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Qubit said:
'direct communion with ultimate reality', 'knowledge of god, spritual truth or ultimate reality' seem paranormal to me.  I dont really know though I guess.




What if such a knowledge is gained from mathematics and science? I think that learning more science and mathematics will put you more in touch with the ultimate reality. Psychology and neuroscience will teach you more about yourself, while physics and chemistry will teach you more about the universe itself. And in order to understand physics properly you must understand some mathematics.

I also think that intellectual growth isn't necessarily the only type of growth available to man. You also have physical growth gained from physical exercise, and emotional growth gained from struggling with yourself.

Edited by Zanthius (06/30/09 06:40 AM)

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The word "Mystical" has become a slur on this forum [Re: Epigallo]
    #10596704 - 06/30/09 08:45 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Yes, true, but I'm being specific to the Introverted Intuitives. Some people consider shamen to be mystics, when technically, they're ecstatics who extravert their visionary experiences in sensory descriptions of ascent to the Sky World via trees, ladders, beanstalks, etc. There are devotional ecstatics in Christendom too. Sometimes they are visionaries or sometimes they develop bleeding stigmata. Buddhist, Hindu, and Muslim devotionals or mystics never develop bleeding stigmata, for example. True mysticism undercuts all of the intellectual layers that color individual religious experiences. I understand them to be what are called PCEs - 'Pure Consciousness Events.' There are 2 or 3 schools of thought on this. Some folks believe that all mystical experiences are tinged or colored by the religious framework that they occur within. Whereas this may be true for a born-into-the-faith Catholic who lives in a monastery, for example, I had a very weak Jewish identity, took Baptism, went to Christian seminary, all the while studying and practicing Hindu and Buddhist Yogas. I did have religiously tinged experiences depending upon what my mind-set was. I had a Jewish-tinged experience on a Rosh Hashana trip. I had a classic, life-changing experience when I meditated beneath a Buddha-image when studying Tibetan Buddhism. Prior to those, I had a classic OOBE while studying/practicing astral projection. There seem to be PCEs as well, and the one invariant feature is a substratum which is often called 'light' or 'Being' since it is not a physically visual experience, but an inner self-effulgence - glory of God, so-to-speak. Clear Light of the Void for non-theistic folk. Mind-Illumination from within.

One attitude at this forum is that we deceive ourselves into 'believing' that we have such experiences. That is interesting. It is like doubting our existence when we doubt that we experience things. True hallucinations and delusions are pathological conditions resulting from toxicity or neural damage. No, I prefer a more profound position - that we are co-creators of Reality Itself! The Creative Intelligence (as we used to call God in TM) operates through us. We are not merely passive observers of Reality, we give rise to Reality. If the outer world is God's inner dream, our inner states are also Real. This can sound solipsistic or psychotic, but it is really meant to say that the inner dimensions are places that we both come from, and go to. Kingdom of Heaven stuff. We make them Real by manifesting them in our lives - by acting based upon the Reality of these inner states.

Sorry, I went off there...


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Invisiblesterbeklang
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Re: The word "Mystical" has become a slur on this forum [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #10596830 - 06/30/09 09:26 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Quote:

daytripper23 said:
Do mushrooms ever turn extroverts into introverts?  :bigjoint:



 
Based on the MBTI data, and upon Jungian theory on which it is based, constitutional types do not change across the lifespan. One goal of Individuation is to move closer to the centerline on the I-E, N-S, T-F, and P-J axes. I can extrovert (verb) my attention when I have to, but I will never be, constitutionally, an Extrovert (noun).





One thing you might want to do before you die is get your head out of that test's ass.  :wink:

However, I went to Quizopolis today and found out that I am a "Possible Vampire."  Something to think about. :lol:

"In the search for solitude and silence
The righteous will answer to the cynic
I dare not hold my fucking tongue
Alien in nature and strength of the mystick"


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The word "Mystical" has become a slur on this forum [Re: sterbeklang]
    #10596892 - 06/30/09 09:44 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

That test is nothing short of amazing as far as I am concerned. I worked through grad school administering and scoring 1000 of 'em. It is useful to understand how to best relate to types other than oneself, how to predict how well one will get along with a partner, what one's personality strengths and weaknesses are, how suitable one is for a type of career (or vice versa). It is based on Jungian theory but not mere abstraction. Statistics have borne out it usefulness for decades.

Yeah, you're a "Possible Vampire," great. I was married to a 'psychic vampire,' who drained me before I left her sick self. NOT a compliment.
My blood type is 'B-Negative' - so I am - I'm a real pessimist. Careful that you don't prey on me, 'cause I'm contagious :smirk:

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Invisiblesterbeklang
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Re: The word "Mystical" has become a slur on this forum [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #10596919 - 06/30/09 09:55 AM (14 years, 8 months ago)

The problem I've found with that test is that it's impossible to take it without having preconceived notions of what the questions represent.  You tend to answer not based on unbiased observation, but based on how you want to see yourself.  What you should do is have a scientist follow a person around for a month, taking studious notes, listening to what is being said and watching what is being done.  Then have the scientist take the test for them.  :tongue:

For instance, say a young girl is tremendously influenced by Ally Sheedy's character in "The Breakfast Club."  She might desperately try to come out as an introvert, even though maybe she's just an extrovert who can't find any genuine friends in her surroundings.  So the introversion reading is merely a sour-grapes cover-up for the fact that she's an unfulfilled extrovert, because every time she opens her mouth at school, she is made to feel ashamed and withdraws further into her sad, empty, insidey parts.


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