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Invisiblemofo
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How protected are the interwebz from EMP attack?
    #10490308 - 06/11/09 06:58 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

As nuclear weapons continue to find their way into the hands of shady countries, the possibility of one being used increases all the time.

What often isn't mentioned though is that the most effective way these weapons could be used against countries with strong defenses such as the US would likely be as an EMP attack.

Its pretty clear that such an attack would severely damage the electronic infrastructure of the target area, but what about servers?  How much of the internet would get wiped out in an EMP attack?

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: How protected are the interwebz from EMP attack? [Re: mofo]
    #10490569 - 06/11/09 07:43 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

> How much of the internet would get wiped out in an EMP attack?

It would be ugly.  However, EMP from a nuke requires a fairly strong nuke that can be mounted on a missile and a missile to get it high enough to do the job.  The "rogue nations" are a long ways away from this technology.


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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: How protected are the interwebz from EMP attack? [Re: Seuss]
    #10490666 - 06/11/09 07:59 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

The internet was designed to be extremely robust in the face of such a localized attack.  Even if you took out an entire city, and that city was a major hub for internet traffic, traffic would just be routed around it.  It would be messy for the area around the city but they'd probably be worrying about more important stuff at that point.  If the city was a hub which connected to an undersea cable, it might affect a larger proportion of traffic but it still wouldn't be catastrophic.

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Invisiblemofo
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Re: How protected are the interwebz from EMP attack? [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #10490735 - 06/11/09 08:09 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

yeah, but you're talking about a regular nuclear attack.  In an EMP attack, a weapon is detonated at high altitude (like 400 km or something) and can send out a destructive elecrtomagnetic pulse over an entire continent.  I what I'm wondering is how fortified the servers are against such a pulse.  Of course, if that happened, your computer (and everyone elses) would be fried anyways, so maybe its a moot point.

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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: How protected are the interwebz from EMP attack? [Re: mofo]
    #10491255 - 06/11/09 09:41 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

I think you just answered your own question.  I have no idea what is currently possible in this area, but 440km is a long way up and EM power drops off as 1/r^2 so how much will actually remain when it gets to the surface?

A number for the peak power output of a nuclear bomb that I found is 25TW (I admit this could be way off...)  Assuming isotropic distribution of energy and that none is absorbed before it gets to the surface of the Earth the intensity at the surface of the Earth will be on the order of 3 Watts per square meter.  Is a momentary pulse with peak power of 3 Watts really a concern?

Edited by ChuangTzu (06/11/09 09:46 PM)

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: How protected are the interwebz from EMP attack? [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #10493426 - 06/12/09 09:53 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

> The internet was designed to be extremely robust in the face of such a localized attack.

EMP from a nuke is anything but localized, unfortunately.

> I have no idea what is currently possible in this area, but 440km is a long way up and EM power drops off as 1/r^2 so how much will actually remain when it gets to the surface?

The problem is the production of high energy electrons by Compton scattering between 20km to 40km which get trapped in Earth's magnetic field.  The trapped electrons create an asymmetric oscillating current which creates the radiated electromagnetic field.  Because the electrons are all trapped at the same time, they radiate a very large coherent electromagnetic field at a much lower altitude than the actual nuclear detonation.  The pulse lasts approximately 1ms and can create peak magnetic fields greater than 4E3 A/m and peak electric fields greater than 10E5 V/m during this time.


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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: How protected are the interwebz from EMP attack? [Re: Seuss]
    #10495544 - 06/12/09 05:57 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
The pulse lasts approximately 1ms and can create peak magnetic fields greater than 4E3 A/m and peak electric fields greater than 10E5 V/m during this time.




At the surface?

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: How protected are the interwebz from EMP attack? [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #10495818 - 06/12/09 07:13 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

> At the surface?

Yes.  Again, these are maximums given perfect conditions and an optimal yield device. 

See http://www.fas.org/irp/threat/mctl98-2/p2sec06.pdf


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OfflineJT
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Re: How protected are the interwebz from EMP attack? [Re: Seuss]
    #10496338 - 06/12/09 09:25 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

interesting...i didn't realize the EMP pulse could reach so far some a single blast.

what kind of technology do we need in order to protect ourselves from this kind of attack(hypothetically)? if somehow we were able to change our processors to send out photon signals instead of electrons, would they still get wiped out? it seems like the fiber optic lines should be fine, but the issue is more the circuits than the signal.

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OfflinePNutButta
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Re: How protected are the interwebz from EMP attack? [Re: JT]
    #10568509 - 06/25/09 01:06 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Larger problem then an attack is a large EMP event from the Sun. Its not a question of if it will happen, but when. And it probably won't be too long.

Also, it doesn't really matter if your server is directly affected. The power grid will get blown to shit, considering its a giant EMP antenna with sensitive transformers joining it together.

This is a very well known problem without much in terms of a good solution. Shielding is the most important thing to prevent any electro-magnetic interference. There is a growing industry around just this topic.

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Invisiblearainbow
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Re: How protected are the interwebz from EMP attack? [Re: PNutButta]
    #10571879 - 06/25/09 03:57 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

they have a non nuke EMP weapon it sends out a strong micro wave pulse then sets off an explosion to compress the pulse
kind of a simple weapon that even a backyard hardware hacker could build

this would be the rouge nation EMP threat
even a small one could tack out the radios , telephones , grid and computers of a large city
a few of these set off and the U.S. would be a sitting duck to just about any other kind of attack


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There is more joy in heaven over one of us perfected,
  than over ninety-nine naturally evolved angels.

Edited by arainbow (06/25/09 04:03 PM)

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InvisibletrendalM Happy Birthday!
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Re: How protected are the interwebz from EMP attack? [Re: arainbow]
    #10571927 - 06/25/09 04:06 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

even a small one could tack out the grid and computers of a large city

I thought a major downside to the explosively pumped EMP's was that they had shitty range.

Do you have a source for that statement?


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Invisiblearainbow
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Re: How protected are the interwebz from EMP attack? [Re: trendal]
    #10572236 - 06/25/09 04:56 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Yes in the open where they were tested they have a shitty range
but set off over a power substation and the grid itself along with the power in it extends the range this is how they were used in the gulf war

I got this from a news show on NBC bragging about the high teck weapons being used 

even a magnetron from a micro wave oven can send out a huge amount of energy for a short time (until it burns up) like hundreds of thousands of KJ
or pump a maser to knock out one target

I


--------------------
There is more joy in heaven over one of us perfected,
  than over ninety-nine naturally evolved angels.

Edited by arainbow (06/25/09 05:14 PM)

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InvisibleAsante
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Re: How protected are the interwebz from EMP attack? [Re: trendal]
    #10575259 - 06/26/09 04:54 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

I thought a major downside to the explosively pumped EMP's was that they had shitty range.





I believe so too. Isnt there an EMP warhead for cruise missiles? I believe they were used in the first Iraq war.

I would love to know range/size aspects of explosively pumped EMP devices. What would the range of a hand grenade sized one be? Powered by a battery and a few grams of high explosive?
/me pictures terrorist attacks where buildings aren't attacked to blow them up, but to wipe the data of their computer systems

I once calculated that for the split second a blasting cap goes off, it outputs more potential wattage than all the powerplants of a whole country.


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Edited by Asante (06/26/09 04:56 AM)

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InvisibletrendalM Happy Birthday!
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Re: How protected are the interwebz from EMP attack? [Re: Asante]
    #10575409 - 06/26/09 06:33 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Ever read "America" by Stephen Coonts?

In it a terrorist group steals an American submarine that is outfitted with "new" EMP cruise missiles. They use them (and a small hand held EMP device - like a grenade) to wipe out the technology of cities like New York and Washington.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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