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andymc
cocoa beetles from zanzibar



Registered: 11/25/09
Posts: 2,395
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Re: My take on cubensis strains, especially yield [Re: Doc_T]
#13033271 - 08/10/10 07:04 PM (13 years, 5 months ago) |
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Ultimately, if we're going to take strains very seriously, we depend on no one ever mislabeling anything, as someone pointed out. I'm very careful with documenting things, and I'm pretty sure I've never made a mistake, but I know I've come close to making one on several occasions.
Any strain I receive from most sources, including shroomery members, I take with a grain of salt.
It seems to me that Sporeworks are pretty trusted, and they allegedly do a lot of work with different strains and such, so that seems like a reasonable place to start in terms of identifying a 'repository'. Not to get OT here, but I'm not sure I feel the same way about the other sponsor vendors.
-------------------- How I make spore prints Trade List My flow hood If he asks me "Did you have a good time?" I'll say, "Get the lights, Mr. Grim Reaper" -odds
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Getafixx
NotaRoman


Registered: 05/10/09
Posts: 524
Loc: 2nd Continent on the Left
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Re: My take on cubensis strains, especially yield [Re: andymc]
#13033287 - 08/10/10 07:07 PM (13 years, 5 months ago) |
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7+ years ago i started my myco research with a wild find SAT. It was the only race I cultivated for my first 4 years, i had limited access to the internet and no money to purchase spores from a vendor. My theoretical research was limited to public libraries and internet cafe's. Anyway during that time i had isolated many sub strains of the same SAT race. many of the ss's looked the same in general appearance. Potency was very much the same too. However a handful of Iso's from the SAT race showed very different characteristix and a remarkable difference in Potency. Also imho different bulk substrates & grain spawn will effect the same ISO differently. The point i am trying to make is,,, you may need to set the criteria for the cultivation of a particular Race/Brand in order to preserve desirable genetic traits. For example;; If i give doc a print from an extremely potent ISO of The SAT Race then he/she must use xyz as a Spawn medium and abc as a bulk sub and the only clone/print the fruit that are in clusters of 5 or more in order to get the same results as i did and insuring that He passes the same/similar genetics to the next grower?
I hope my lingo is correct. my 2c worth
~ubuntu~ Fix
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Javadog
Continuing along



Registered: 05/03/10
Posts: 7,385
Loc: USA
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Re: My take on cubensis strains, especially yield [Re: Getafixx]
#13033816 - 08/10/10 08:56 PM (13 years, 5 months ago) |
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That is a great addition. (the grow method data)
I think that what we need amounts to a wiki that defined users can group-edit.
This would be a outgrowth of this thread.
ONE directory (Tolkien reference restrained) in which all info for each strain is kept. Where, for each strain, there is a description of all known characteristics, a set of reference photos, and even some summation of trip strength and quality.
So, if Pan-Cyan is reported by enough people to be sensitive to shaking of grains, then I can confirm this here. If I am growing what I think is Texan but I am not sure based on what I am seeing, I can look up a photo. (of course, photos would have to include the range of common "looks")
I would prefer more data to less.
This would mean that temps as high as 80 need not be banned from discussion, but could be explained in a way that warned new users against going crazy heat-wise. (perhaps not a good example)
Am I making sense? ;0)
P.S. ...and we could have a Devil's Dictionary for all of the unconventional growers to post their "I rolled after the first flush and it worked great!" stories.
Personally, I believe most of what I read here because I do not know better, and have found this group to be genuinely generous.
-------------------- Boyd Rice told my brother that life is a corny pack of freesakes Myco-tek.org
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Doc_T
Random Dude




Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 42,395
Loc: Colorado
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Re: My take on cubensis strains, especially yield [Re: Javadog]
#13033907 - 08/10/10 09:15 PM (13 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
If I am growing what I think is Texan but I am not sure based on what I am seeing, I can look up a photo.
And here's the problem. Ever seen a Mexican Indian that looked like he might be Asian? If you know someone's background, or where they are from, that's fine. But you can't ID somebody's homeland by looking, and it's the same with mushrooms.
Not every meaty cap with big warts is Oak Ridge. Unless you guys just want to arbitrarily declare that looks = strain, and be done.
-------------------- You make it all possible. Doesn't it feel good?
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13shrooms
Lightning Shaman



Registered: 01/01/09
Posts: 26,719
Loc: IN ETHERS TORSION FIELD
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Re: My take on cubensis strains, especially yield [Re: Doc_T]
#13034046 - 08/10/10 09:42 PM (13 years, 5 months ago) |
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even if an iso is used once a spore print is taken the genetics are all reset with only a slight bit of a higher chance you might get similar charactoristics. and you cant use the same substrate for the same substrains all the time cuz thats like eating the same food everyday, eventually you will need a change/variety of nutes to remain healthy. just like your myc will/does.
--------------------
A M U Click here ^ for the AMU forum VVV AMUs Free Active/Edible/Exotic Spore Print or Syringe or Edible Culture Trade Thread VVV "Man is the sex organ of the machine world" ~ Marshall McLuhan
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Getafixx
NotaRoman


Registered: 05/10/09
Posts: 524
Loc: 2nd Continent on the Left
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Re: My take on cubensis strains, especially yield [Re: 13shrooms]
#13034339 - 08/10/10 10:40 PM (13 years, 5 months ago) |
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I don't believe that sub variety is essential to keep a particular strain healthy. The mycelia eats to live unlike many humans that live to eat. Correct me if i am wrong, myc needs to produce certain enzymes that enable it to digest certain food groups so if a particular strain is exclusively grown on 1 type of sub then over time in theory that strain will develop precursors to start producing sub specific enzymes at the onset of germination and possibly make the strain grow more vigorously.
The reason cubes are so widespread is because of their relationship to Cattle and the shit they love so much.
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13shrooms
Lightning Shaman



Registered: 01/01/09
Posts: 26,719
Loc: IN ETHERS TORSION FIELD
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Re: My take on cubensis strains, especially yield [Re: Getafixx]
#13034429 - 08/10/10 10:59 PM (13 years, 5 months ago) |
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yeah, that it does. theres a thread around here somewhere but Im not at my puter to link to it. Im on my PSP.
theres still people on this planet that dont believe in electricity also but that doesnt make it so.
Im not sayin its a detrimental but it makes a difference when it comes to iso/clones.
--------------------
A M U Click here ^ for the AMU forum VVV AMUs Free Active/Edible/Exotic Spore Print or Syringe or Edible Culture Trade Thread VVV "Man is the sex organ of the machine world" ~ Marshall McLuhan
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jokefox
Top of the chain



Registered: 12/22/09
Posts: 6,231
Loc: never where I should be
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Re: My take on cubensis strains, especially yield [Re: 13shrooms]
#13034561 - 08/10/10 11:47 PM (13 years, 5 months ago) |
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quit wasting your breath if noobs want to think that cubes differ let them get a few grows under there belt and they will mess up with cakes and not know witch cube is witch
then they will understand
THAT ALL CUBES ARE THE SAME
BECAUSE THEY ARE PS. CUBENSIS
CASE CLOSED
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libertaire
liberator



Registered: 08/06/08
Posts: 4,204
Last seen: 3 years, 6 months
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Re: My take on cubensis strains, especially yield [Re: jokefox]
#13034676 - 08/11/10 12:38 AM (13 years, 5 months ago) |
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Thank you hitler.
The end goal here is not to say "Oh, this mushroom looks like this, it must be xyz strain". The real thing that's being pursued here is a cooperation with the natural tendencies of the mushrooms to adapt to a particular set of circumstances given the proper continuous exposure to the same cultivation elements, both in terms of substrate, moisture content, temperature, and rh. The logistics behind this task are monumental, and would take a community of cooperative and honest growers, in a sort of a wiki like was mentioned above. I'm definitely game for this if anyone else is. I'll look into making one up, unless someone else is already on it.
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Javadog
Continuing along



Registered: 05/03/10
Posts: 7,385
Loc: USA
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Re: My take on cubensis strains, especially yield [Re: libertaire]
#13034802 - 08/11/10 01:22 AM (13 years, 5 months ago) |
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I will help. ....not sure how...I can spot classic fails since the people already here do every day, so I could help maintain content. How important this would be would probably depend on how wide open the authors role is...
I might be fun to leave it wide open at first, to give everyone a chance to copy in their favorite teks. Control would only be necessary once content worth protecting had been assembled. A system of change control would be involved to allow for content recovery in case anyone accidentally deleted everything. :0)
Anyhoo....fun to ponder. The one thing is that want this to exist within the existing security framework of the shroomery if at all possible. We trust these people and do not really want to expose ourselves through a new route.
-------------------- Boyd Rice told my brother that life is a corny pack of freesakes Myco-tek.org
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punkrocker292004
i am a liar



Registered: 12/17/09
Posts: 2,921
Loc:
Last seen: 2 years, 3 months
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Re: My take on cubensis strains, especially yield [Re: Javadog]
#13034831 - 08/11/10 01:31 AM (13 years, 5 months ago) |
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lolol i believe i started this by saying a cube is a cube except pe lol
-------------------- EVERYTHING YOU NEED TO KNOW on a long enough timeline the survival rate for everyone drops to zero-tyler durden watch me
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Javadog
Continuing along



Registered: 05/03/10
Posts: 7,385
Loc: USA
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Re: My take on cubensis strains, especially yield [Re: punkrocker292004]
#13034896 - 08/11/10 01:55 AM (13 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
punkrocker292004 said: lolol i believe i started this by saying a cube is a cube except pe lol
Outstanding!!
I must find cool images for times like this!
(but I guess that I just borrowed yours)
LOL!
-------------------- Boyd Rice told my brother that life is a corny pack of freesakes Myco-tek.org
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Rose
Devil's Advocate



Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 22,518
Loc: Mod not God
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
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Re: My take on cubensis strains, especially yield [Re: Javadog]
#13034968 - 08/11/10 02:16 AM (13 years, 5 months ago) |
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Just to add my two cents to this discussion... there ARE differences between cube "Strains".
There are at least TEN "Strains" which are clearly unique when you look at them with your naked eye.
Other "Strains" have varying potency, growth parameters, colonization rates... etc. BUT, aside from the VISUAL differences between "Strains", we haven't PROVEN any of the other differences. Why no proof? Because scientific proof costs a LOT of $$$ and very few people/places will fund research on psychedelic shrooms... even fewer CREDIBLE people/places will.
So, unfortunately... opinion... personal opinion is all we have to go on (so far). That and personal experience... and the problem with personal experience is it is unique and relative.
So for now, y'all can either do some scientific research which is VALID, or find your own favorite cube and enjoy it.
-------------------- Fiddlesticks.
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Doc_T
Random Dude




Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 42,395
Loc: Colorado
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Re: My take on cubensis strains, especially yield [Re: 13shrooms]
#13035271 - 08/11/10 05:32 AM (13 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
once a spore print is taken the genetics are all reset with only a slight bit of a higher chance you might get similar charactoristics.
No, no- you inbreed at each step. The idea that 'spores are random' is a misunderstanding of genetics. You lose heterozygosity as you isolate, print, repeat.
-------------------- You make it all possible. Doesn't it feel good?
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hamloaf
Loaf of Fam.

Registered: 12/23/09
Posts: 20,192
Loc: Oklahoma.
Last seen: 1 year, 8 months
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Re: My take on cubensis strains, especially yield [Re: hamloaf]
#13035306 - 08/11/10 06:09 AM (13 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Heterozygosity is lost as you isolate, print, repeat.
Loss of heterozygosity
Loss of heterozygosity (LOH) in a cell represents the loss of normal function of one allele of a gene in which the other allele was already inactivated. This term is mostly used in the context of oncogenesis; after an inactivating mutation in one allele of a tumor suppressor gene occurs in the parent's germline cell, it is passed on to the zygote resulting in an offspring that is heterozygous for that allele. In oncology, loss of heterozygosity occurs when the remaining functional allele in a somatic cell of the offspring becomes inactivated by mutation. This could cause a normal tumor suppressor to no longer be produced which could result in tumorigenesis.
Heterozygosity - average
Sum the number of heterozygous individuals for each gene, divide this by the total number of individuals in the sample, and average over all genes.
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anonjon
Partially Right

Registered: 11/03/08
Posts: 6,322
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Re: My take on cubensis strains, especially yield [Re: Rose]
#13035389 - 08/11/10 07:23 AM (13 years, 5 months ago) |
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I think we're underestimating the value of our own observations. If you buy spores from sporeworks or the hawk or ralphsters you can count on it generally matching the characteristics found in Cervantes strain journal.
If you haven't checked out the strain journal, you should. Every time I try a new strain I try to get some good pics to contribute to it. I encourage everyone to do this.
Breeding is subjective. Over time we can decide what a good orissa or puerto or oak ridge is supposed to be like. Just like a dog show.
-------------------- The above post is fictional, hypothetical, or downright nonsensical.
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libertaire
liberator



Registered: 08/06/08
Posts: 4,204
Last seen: 3 years, 6 months
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Re: My take on cubensis strains, especially yield [Re: anonjon]
#13035581 - 08/11/10 09:07 AM (13 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
anonjon said:Just like a dog show.
Lol.
So if we made a mushroom strain wiki, who would contribute? Experiments would have to be done with various substrates to determine which one creates mushrooms that look most like the description, a process that would take quite a while, but for right now, we can go solely on personal observations.
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anonjon
Partially Right

Registered: 11/03/08
Posts: 6,322
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Re: My take on cubensis strains, especially yield [Re: libertaire]
#13035622 - 08/11/10 09:30 AM (13 years, 5 months ago) |
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Cervantes journal is a fine humble start to such an enterprise, why does it have to be more complicated?
-------------------- The above post is fictional, hypothetical, or downright nonsensical.
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Doc_T
Random Dude




Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 42,395
Loc: Colorado
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Re: My take on cubensis strains, especially yield [Re: anonjon]
#13035680 - 08/11/10 09:50 AM (13 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Experiments would have to be done with various substrates to determine which one creates mushrooms that look most like the description,
Uh, I don't think growing conditions are relevant. We are talking about genetics. If it looks different when you grow it, it's not a true-breeding strain.
(Hollow stems can come with warm temps and rapid growth. But otherwise... ?)
-------------------- You make it all possible. Doesn't it feel good?
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jokefox
Top of the chain



Registered: 12/22/09
Posts: 6,231
Loc: never where I should be
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Re: My take on cubensis strains, especially yield [Re: Doc_T]
#13036900 - 08/11/10 02:28 PM (13 years, 5 months ago) |
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heres a real question
anyone got information on this? Mystery Fat Ass (MFA), originally sold by the former european Shroomery vendor mushmush.nl.
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