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InvisibleJavadog
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Re: My take on cubensis strains, especially yield [Re: PrimalSoup]
    #12999460 - 08/04/10 12:18 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

They were cute little carmel caps.  Yum!


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Re: My take on cubensis strains, especially yield [Re: PrimalSoup]
    #13000851 - 08/04/10 10:44 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

PrimalSoup said:
Of course I don't expect people to believe it without proof.  Hell, I wouldn't believe it if it hadn't happened. :lol: 

Check the umbos though, don't worry too much about the annulus, that varies.  The pic is from a polaroid, you wouldn't want to ID anything off of it, but my cat wanted to pose with them (raised by shrooms).  You can see the caramel color, but you can't see their pellicles...

Hey, FWIW I grew them out on wood chips in a spare refrigerator setup for quite a while before the interesting mutation occurred - it was a heat stress accident IIRC.  There was a direct ancestral line back to the original cyan spore print and they breed true so far as I can tell yet.

Their potency was 2-3 times that of cubes, weight for weight.  I didn't grow cubes at all again  after isolating that strain (until recently that is :mushroomgrow:).  I have many more pics of that strain including macros but they're all slides, I'll dig into them sometime, maybe...

Of course I'll post updates, but this is very slow process.  :chaingang:

Peace, and wear yer goggles
-PS




I don't doubt that you grew them out from a direct ancestral line, but accidents do happen.  The only reason I questioned it at all is because cyans don't have an annulus, under any circumstances whatsoever.  It's just not in their genetics.  They have the strandy wispy veil that disappears as soon as  the cap opens fully, leaving no remnants.  Also, the non wavy caps are what cause me to question.  If you have more pictures, or if you plan on trying experiments in the near future (or would like someone to try some experiments :tongue2:) I'd definitely be interested, but as of right now, I'm gonna have to be a doubting thomas until I see more proof.  Not because I don't believe it's possible, but because the proof you've given doesn't quite add up.


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Re: My take on cubensis strains, especially yield [Re: libertaire]
    #13001195 - 08/04/10 12:19 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

What are the differences (If any) and advantages/disadvantages of the following pan cyan strains?

# Panaeolus (Copelandia) cyanescens : Australian
# Panaeolus (Copelandia) cyanescens : Jalisco var. Megasporus
# Panaeolus (Copelandia) cambodginiensis : Thailand, Suphanburi Goliath(TM)
# Panaeolus (Copelandia) cyanescens : Hawaiian
# Panaeolus (Copelandia) cyanescens : RDU - Red Down Under, Redspore Mutation
# Panaeolus (Copelandia) cambodginiensis : Sandose Domesticate


And whats the difference between cambo and cyan?

EDIT:From sporeworks if it matters.


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Edited by ninja cat 09 (08/04/10 12:23 PM)


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Offlinelibertaire
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Re: My take on cubensis strains, especially yield [Re: ninja cat 09]
    #13001284 - 08/04/10 12:38 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

http://www.shroomery.org/8421/Panaeolus-cyanescens-FAQ#distinguish

Other than that, the difference between strain names basically indicates where they were first found in the wild, or some cute nicknames that were given to them based on their observed characteristics.


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Invisible13shroomsM
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Re: My take on cubensis strains, especially yield [Re: ninja cat 09]
    #13001296 - 08/04/10 12:40 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I know the jalisco make some sweet sclerotia (philosophers stones) and the rest are all very similer in my exp. :stoner:


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Offlinelibertaire
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Re: My take on cubensis strains, especially yield [Re: 13shrooms]
    #13001308 - 08/04/10 12:42 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

13shrooms said:
I know the jalisco make some sweet sclerotia (philosophers stones) and the rest are all very similer in my exp. :stoner:




Are you sure you're not thinking of Ps. Mexicana Jalisco?  I've never heard of Pan Cyans (or any panaeolus) making sclerotia.


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Invisible13shroomsM
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Re: My take on cubensis strains, especially yield [Re: libertaire]
    #13001543 - 08/04/10 01:22 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

:facepalm3:

:murray:

      you got me. :grin:


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Invisibleninja cat 09
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Re: My take on cubensis strains, especially yield [Re: 13shrooms]
    #13001641 - 08/04/10 01:38 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

teonan said:
The Hawaiian cyanescens forms little sclerotia on the agar, and is faster growing then the Tai, and the cambodian.




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Offlinelibertaire
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Re: My take on cubensis strains, especially yield [Re: ninja cat 09]
    #13001664 - 08/04/10 01:41 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

ninja cat 09 said:
Quote:

teonan said:
The Hawaiian cyanescens forms little sclerotia on the agar, and is faster growing then the Tai, and the cambodian.






'Tis true, but nothing worth writing home about, very miniscule amounts compared to species that are considered "sclerotia producers".  But I suppose a little breeding/isolation may be able to change that.


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Invisibleheeroyuy00
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Re: My take on cubensis strains, especially yield [Re: libertaire]
    #13009806 - 08/05/10 10:26 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

RR didnt answer my pm .. no biggie guess ill ask here

Pasted \/

'm starting to come around this whole "strain" thing for cubensis.
In your post you said anybody who thinks a print is a strain is "retarted". So in theory.. my P cubensis that I have now is just as good as "Oak ridge" or any other "strain" if I were to get into agar work, cloning and isolates ?


http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/12718930#12718930


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Re: My take on cubensis strains, especially yield [Re: heeroyuy00]
    #13010793 - 08/06/10 04:14 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

heeroyuy00 said:
RR didnt answer my pm ..




Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
NO CULTIVATION PMs!!

CULTIVATION PMs WILL BE IGNORED.  PLEASE ASK ALL CULTIVATION RELATED QUESTIONS IN THE FORUMS.
RR




So at least you're in the right place now :wink:

To use humans as an analogy: my family shares some traits like hair colour, intelligence, incredible good looks, etc.  Your family probably share some traits (ability to follow instructions, etc) that makes you similar to one another, but different from my family.  Fundamentally we're all the same species, so the differences are largely superficial.

They're still differences though, so if you're interested in exploring the different results you can get by cultivating different sets of genetics, then you should try out different "strains".  However if what you're looking for is bigger/badder/different/better mushrooms, you'd do a lot better experimenting with various species and/or growing techniques.


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Re: My take on cubensis strains, especially yield [Re: heeroyuy00]
    #13012624 - 08/06/10 02:02 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

From the first post in this thread:



Why 'Race', 'Variety 'and 'Subvariety' are Often More Accurate Terms Than 'Strain':
When discussing different types of cubes in general, let's use the words 'Race' or 'Variety' instead of the word 'Strain'. Cubes, like humans, come from all over the world... and like humans, there can be some variety from one cube patch to another. It is time for some racial tension here in the world of cubes. Most cubes are named after the place where their original wild spore specimen was discovered... so Race is a logical (if imperfect) word to use when describing these different types of cubes. At the very least, it is more accurate and far less confusing than the word 'Strain'.

In this thread, the word 'Strain' in quotation marks means something different than the word Strain without quotation marks. The word Strain refers to living dikaryotic mycelial tissue, the word 'Strain' refers to commercial spores.

The fungus known as Psilocibe Cubensis is a unique mushroom SPECIES. Shiitake is a unique mushroom species. Azures are their own species. Amanitas are a species... etc. It would be almost impossible and incredibly expensive to use two different fungus species and create a hybrid of the two. It'd be like successfully mating a human with a gorilla. However, a Caucasian human can effectively mate with an Asian human. Similarly, spores from one cube race can mate (or be mated) successfully with the spores of other cubensis races.

In the world of mycology, every single time a single spore's mycelium mates with another's to become dikaryotic, a unique Strain (no quotation marks) is created. Like baby humans, living cube Strains are each unique, and they tend to resemble their 'parents'. Each single viable spore print can produce thousands if not millions of unique strains. Most of these strains will produce mushrooms that look remarkably like the mushroom that produced the print from which they came.

The term 'Strain' is often used to describe the type of spores on a spore print or in a syringe filled with spores. When used in this context, the word 'Strain' is simply NOT ACCURATE (hence the 'Quotation marks'). It is a word used by vendors (who cater to hippies) in order to make magic shroom spores sound like different strains of marijuana. It is a word that suggests cubes are more varied from 'Strain' to 'Strain' than they actually are.

Marijuana is a plant, cubes are a fungus. Cubes come from SPORES, marijuana comes from SEEDS. Cubes breathe OXYGEN and produce CO2 as a byproduct (like animals). Marijuana, like all plants, breathes CO2 and produces OXYGEN.

The misuse of the word 'Strain' is widespread, and only encourages vendors to sell as many different 'Strains' as possible in spite of their obvious similarities. When people talk of commercial cube 'Strains' this leads to confusion and misinformation. Vendors (especially the shady ones) thrive on this misinformation.

An African, an Asian and a Caucasian are all undeniably human but there are obvious differences between each race. Even on a smaller scale... every single town (and sometimes neighborhood) in Great Britain features a slightly different dialect... and yet, there is still room for great diversity from one person to another in said towns... even though, when compared to a different race, most Brits tend to look alike.

Still, the world of genetics is often a funny thing, and sometimes spores will produce some surprisingly unique and unexpected strains... strains displaying recessive genetic traits and mutations that nobody could predict... again, just like humans.

These unique cubes can be selectively bred until these unique traits become common, even via multispore inoculation. This new, unique cube may be marketed as a new 'Strain' but it is really just a unique 'Variety' of cubensis spawned from its original race. Still, many vendors market each unique variety as a new 'Strain'. In general, every single commercially available cubensis 'RACE', is actually a domesticated VARIETY of the original specimen. Domesticated cubes contain intentionally limited genetics in order to increase the likelyhood of achieving the desired results, sort of like dog domestication and subsequent breeding.

Over time and multiple generations (spore to fruit to spore) a cubensis Variety can become genetically limited by inbreeding. This means results from multispore inoculation can become more consistent, and the likelihood of accidentally stumbling upon unique traits reduces. If a commercial cube's genetics become too limited, the inbreeding can produce undesired effects. In general, when it comes to life, too much inbreeding will eventually lead to problems.

Annother classification for different types of cubes is the 'Sub-variety'. For example, by using spores from each variety of cube, Workman crossed PF Albino (Probably a variety of the Matias Romero race) with Penis Envy (Probably a variety of an Amazonian or Columbian race) and produced the Albino Penis Envy. Albino Penis Envy is both a sub-variety of PF Albino and Penis Envy.

Since all this 'Variety' and 'Sub-Variety' talk can get very confusing, go ahead and use 'Race' if you prefer, even though it is not entirely accurate. It sure beats saying 'Strain'. There are racial differences between mushrooms, often due to natural selection based upon where they first grew... and sometimes varietal differences due to unnatural selection performed by mycologists.

Finally, there are different 'Brands' of cubes. A Sporeworks Brand syringe full of Penis Envy spores may have a slightly different ethnic diversity than a Ralphster Brand or Hawk's Eye Brand syringe of the same cube.

All of that said, vendors use the term 'Strain'... and n00bs learn the term from vendors. This incorrect term is SO widespread, it is even used in the same way by Paul Stamets. I'd love to use the proper terminology, and will do so from now on... but this will be an uphill battle. Most people recognize the incorrect term, and not the correct ones.

It seems the misuse of the word 'Strain' is only widespread in the world of magic mushrooms, but not in the rest of the mycological world. The fact that so many magic mycologists use incorrect terminology, further reduces our credibility in larger mycological circles. The misuse of this simple word can make our work seem illegitimate in the eyes of science.





The Truth About Different Types of Cubes:
Most cubes look alike.
All cubes grow in the same conditions.
The differences between cube races, varieties or 'Strains' are, more often than not, minute.
Some races are known for fast colonization, or large fruits... even high potency.
BUT... these 'Facts' are often just vendor hype.
Your results will most likely vary.





The Truth About Cube Potency:
If you want something that is very potent, you should probably try a different species and avoid cubes all together... either that, or eat more cubes. Agar will potentially allow you to select a more potent substrain. A few cube races and varieties are reported as being more potent than others... but there is no scientific evidence to strengthen the potency argument. Everybody wants the answer to this question... but all we have is opinion. Most people agree there are differences in potency from one type of cubensis to another... but they seldom agree on which cube is the most (or least) potent.





The Truth About The Fastest Growing Cubes:
Some cube races and varieties are known to grow at a faster or slower rate, on average, than others. There is evidence which suggests the fastest cubensis races produce the smallest shrooms and the slower races and varieties produce the most bulky fungus. Ultimately it all seems to even out in the end (with a few exceptions). Also, the slow cubes more frequently display unique macroscopic characteristics (in other words, they are more likely to look noticeably different from other races) while the fast ones usually look like average (or smaller than average) cubes. It tends to take more time to grow a large or unique cube. If you are looking for a cube which produces a LOT of quick bulk, you may be looking for a long time... and you'd better work with agar.





The Truth About Bulk:
Race, variety or 'Strain' has little to do with bulk. With some work, any viable cube print should produce good flushes. Good isolation on agar, and good fruiting conditions are the only proven ways to get consistently bulky flushes. There are no quick and easy solutions. If you want bulk, first you are going to need diligent patience.





The Truth About Selecting Your Spores:
The thing that distinguishes most races, varieties or 'strains' is where they originated and who collected the first specimen. If you are interested in Tasmania, try some Tasmanian spores. If you like the story of how SG30 was resurrected by Shdwstr, try SG30. If you think Penis Envy looks fun, try it. They are all cubes. Pick one that interests you, and see if you like working with it.





The Truth About Multispore vs. Strain Isolation:
Agar allows you to work specifically with your spores but it costs more money and takes much more time. However, proper agar work will give you consistency from one grow to the next.

Multispore inoculation is a turkey shoot. You never know what you are going to get. Mother nature is unpredictable. If you intend to use multispore, it is suggested you work with a classic and/or popular cube variety. Cubes that have been popular for 10 or more years tend to be popular for a reason, and their genetics have probably been limited (in a good way) by being selectively bred over and over again... generation after generation. You are more likely to see consistent results via multispore, if you use a proven race.


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Offlinecaenum
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Tasmanians [Re: badman]
    #13016165 - 08/07/10 08:25 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

anything special i should know about tasmanians? pf tek here


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Re: Tasmanians [Re: caenum]
    #13016184 - 08/07/10 08:35 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

You'll love 'em!


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Re: Tasmanians [Re: caenum]
    #13016279 - 08/07/10 09:14 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

They grow tall and lanky with small caps.  Their prints are medium colored and disappear when they hit water if you are making syringes out of them.  They are a fast colonizer.
HL


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Re: My take on cubensis strains, especially yield [Re: libertaire]
    #13019099 - 08/07/10 09:09 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

I don't doubt that you grew them out from a direct ancestral line, but accidents do happen.  The only reason I questioned it at all is because cyans don't have an annulus, under any circumstances whatsoever.  It's just not in their genetics.  They have the strandy wispy veil that disappears as soon as  the cap opens fully, leaving no remnants.  Also, the non wavy caps are what cause me to question.  If you have more pictures, or if you plan on trying experiments in the near future (or would like someone to try some experiments :tongue2:) I'd definitely be interested, but as of right now, I'm gonna have to be a doubting thomas until I see more proof.  Not because I don't believe it's possible, but because the proof you've given doesn't quite add up.




Suit yourself, I don't need the hassle and won't post anything else about this project.

Until it's proven, that is.  That was my policy before and obviously a good idea.

Peace
-PS


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Re: My take on cubensis strains, especially yield [Re: PrimalSoup]
    #13019183 - 08/07/10 09:28 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

If they were good enough for the cat then they were good enough for me!

Damn, but these are one of the strains that I am still looking for good data on. 
(and were not available when I bought my spores either)


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Re: My take on cubensis strains, especially yield [Re: Javadog]
    #13019201 - 08/07/10 09:30 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

...and you know, in the pictures that I was able to find
online, while there was nothing of the veils left on the
stems of the mushrooms, there was sometimes a blue mark.

...that was what I figured I was seeing in the photo.

Too bad no one else chimed in.  I am no expert.

Good luck!


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Re: My take on cubensis strains, especially yield [Re: Javadog]
    #13023812 - 08/08/10 09:16 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Well i'll go with the old Afoaf scenario here.

But Cubensis strains afoaf has experienced are:

Thai: Koh Samui
Very contam resistant strain that is quick to pin/fruit. They are the fastest pinners in his experience, and have medium sized fruit 9on compost). The trip they provide is really 'speedy', and mostly body buzz. There are some visuals but it's more a speed/vibe than anything. The trip is clean, speedy, and shorter than most cubensis.

Thai: Lipa Yai
Slightly slower than Koh Samui in all respects. The yield is comparable, but still seems a little lighter. Not really any advantage with these over KS. The trip is a little different. not as overwhelming in the speed department, but there still rockets. Worth checkin if you like Koh samui's, probably not if you don't.

Palenque/Mexi
Decent colonizer and easy pins, not the quickest or most contam resistant strain. I guess average is right where these land in the cultivation time frame, and they have small fruit bodies. The trip is very light, very little body buzz with mild visuals. So lower on the potency scale due to the light visuals, and minimal body buzz. Good times but not what I think most will be looking for. 

Mazatapec
This is an interesting one all around. It has bright white mycellium, colonizes a few days slower than average, but fruits fairly quickly. Medium sized mushrooms and no real trouble getting these to pin. Now getting good spore prints from them is another story. They don't wanna leave very dark or heavily sporulated prints often. Which is very frustrating considering they are my favorite strain. The trip they provide is excellent, very fun. They have a great body and mind feeling and some strong visuals. Nothing overwhelming but everything seems alright when your on them. Definitely providing the best overall felling and trip, to my friend..

Ecuador:
Another standard colonizer, fairly high yielding, and produces large fruits. It also gives great spore prints, flushes easily on compost (but was a stubburn, unproductive, pain on pf cakes). Quicker second flushes with decent yields are typical. The trip is pretty intense, lots of visuals. There is some moderate body buzz, but nothing strong/speedy like the KS. Pretty long trip, that seems to take a while before you peak. Overall a very solid strain.

PES Hawaiian
This is actually a somewhat fast colonizer on pf cakes, and very contam resistant. Works great on compost or straw, and has good yeildage. Second and third flushes are tricky (needing more maintence than others) at times and often disappointing. Very Large fruits are common and they're also quite dense. The trip is pretty amazing, and very heady. There is a pretty good body buzz, but it's pleasant and not overwhelming. The visuals are definitely there, and they make for entertaining times with friends. The come down is pretty awful though. They have to be draining of all the cubes (so far), not very 'clean' on the come down.

Malaysian
'Mutants' They love to mutate and aren't very fast colonizers. Come to thnik of it they are fairly slow consuming bulk substrates as well. Good luck getting consistent spore prints from these, because they wont cooperate. Can't comment on the trip, sorry..


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OfflineDigitalsafari
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Re: Strain/Race/Variety Thread [Re: Giallo]
    #13026364 - 08/09/10 12:25 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Wow! Great Guide!!!

Thanks


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