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libertaire
liberator



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I had a question regarding nomenclature. I'm not a mycologist or scientist even, but from what I've noticed, when a new "strain" of a certain species is found, it is labeled as something like "Amanita Muscaria var. Flavivolvata", just as an example. Why don't we do this for cubensis instead of inaccurately calling them strains? I know we're trying to change that by calling them races, but why don't we just stick with the system that is already in place and call them variations instead? For example, var. Ecuador, var. PE, etc. Is there some reason that we can't use this term?
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libertaire
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Re: Strain/Race/Variety Thread [Re: Doc_T]
#11910346 - 01/27/10 08:34 AM (14 years, 4 days ago) |
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I disagree, I think it is more accurate than strain, simply because strain has no official usage in mycology, while var. does. According to wikipedia:
"In botanical nomenclature, variety is a taxonomic rank below that of species: As such, it gets a ternary name (a name in three parts).
A variety will have an appearance distinct from other varieties, but will hybridize freely with those other varieties (if brought into contact). Usually varieties will be geographically separate from each other."
The term family is already reserved for the larger group above genus, and race or strain don't have any legitimate usage in the mycology community, so I think since variety is the only term that has official usage, especially given it's definition, it's the most fitting.
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libertaire
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Re: Strain/Race/Variety Thread [Re: Doc_T]
#11910525 - 01/27/10 09:35 AM (14 years, 3 days ago) |
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While in definition I do agree that clan is better, like I said, var. is the only currently accepted scientific word that would fit our purposes. Just because we aren't skilled enough to be able to distinguish one variety from the next doesn't mean that each variety doesn't have it's own macroscopic particularities. There are definitely some distinguishing features from each strain, like the bulgy bases that sometimes occur in EQ, the larger fruits that occur in SA, the short stocky fruits in KS and KSSS, obviously PE's uniqueness. Other differences in certain varieties may be subtle, but they do exist. Just because they don't occur every single time, it's still in their genetics, and each variety has a unique set of genetics from every other variety.
If these differences didn't occur, I don't think it would even be appropriate to call them strains or any other individual unique name, but they do, so if we're going to be giving them unique names based primarily on their geographical location and secondarily on their appearance, and we're trying to keep consistent with the rest of the mycology community, I think we should be using their terminology, especially if we want to appear knowledgeable.
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libertaire
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Re: Strain/Race/Variety Thread [Re: Doc_T]
#11910543 - 01/27/10 09:40 AM (14 years, 3 days ago) |
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Yea, but that's only if the a strain is isolated can it truly be called a strain. A sample collected in nature that is unique from another sample collected somewhere would be a variety. So I guess PE is technically a strain, but everything else is a variety, or whatever term we decide fits?
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libertaire
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Re: Strain/Race/Variety Thread [Re: Doc_T]
#11910712 - 01/27/10 10:12 AM (14 years, 3 days ago) |
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Quote:
Doc_T said:
Quote:
A sample collected in nature that is unique from another sample collected somewhere would be a variety.
Not in the usual biological sense. We don't talk about Homo sapiens sinensis, for example, to describe humans from China.
We could if we wanted to though. Here's webster's definition of variety:
"5. Biol. A group of animals or plants related by descent, but distinguished from other similar groups only by characters considered too inconsistent or too trivial to entitle it to recognition as a species; often, any group of lower rank than a species."
That's sounds pretty damn fitting if you ask me.
I like the term cultivar for any strain that is isolated for certain traits. That definitely works.
Quote:
Microscopy particularities (spore size etc)would mean a difference in their taxonomy. That again, would make these different types subspecies, which they are not.
"Strains" such as PE or KSSS are isolates and not naturally ever again occurring shapes that are limited to a certain area.
You can pretty much grow any shape of mushroom from any "strain".
I said "macroscopic", not "microscopic".
It's true that isolates are not naturally occurring and are not limited to a certain geographical region, but let's say that it was possible to cultivate A. Muscaria var. formosa, and I cultivated it in a place far from it's naturally occurring environment. Just because I cultivated it in a different locale, is it now a different variety?
And I do agree that you can get any shape from any "strain", but strain is not an accurate description, so I'm just trying to find with the next best thing that has legitimate acceptance in the scientific community.
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libertaire
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Re: Strain/Race/Variety Thread [Re: Doc_T]
#11910758 - 01/27/10 10:22 AM (14 years, 3 days ago) |
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I disagree. Naming things based on their geographical location which as a result has caused variations in their particular set of genetics would certainly seem like it has scientific merit to me.
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libertaire
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Re: Strain/Race/Variety Thread [Re: Doc_T]
#11910786 - 01/27/10 10:29 AM (14 years, 3 days ago) |
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Sorry for arguing the point into the ground, I tend to do that sometimes....
But the issue of whether strain is the proper terminology or not has been brought up before, so I just thought it was something people were interested in trying to resolve.
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libertaire
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Re: Strain/Race/Variety Thread [Re: Cyanesense]
#11916743 - 01/28/10 09:29 AM (14 years, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
Cyanesense said:
Quote:
daytripper05 said: using incorrect language just to allow for better communication through people who otherwise don't know

Good point.
I don't think we'll ever have one set uniform set of terminology across the board, but in some circles we can have slightly proper terminology as long as we're mindful of it. We'll definitely never be completely scientific though, since I couldn't possibly see us adapting every single "variety" name to latin, as would be required if we were trying to be completely scientific. For the most part though, we're definitely on the right track.
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libertaire
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Re: Strain/Race/Variety Thread [Re: Fahkface]
#11961218 - 02/04/10 11:40 AM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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I heard that PF classic can produce some of the most robust fruits, especially invitro.
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libertaire
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Re: Strain/Race/Variety Thread [Re: Kinematics]
#12012277 - 02/11/10 08:56 PM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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The only african variety I've ever heard of is transekei. Treasure coast might be african too though, I'm not sure. No way to tell though really, I don't think either of those varieties have any distinguishing characteristics.
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libertaire
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Re: Strain/Race/Variety Thread [Re: Getafixx]
#12014285 - 02/12/10 06:41 AM (13 years, 11 months ago) |
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And by strain you mean species, right?
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libertaire
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Re: Strain/Race/Variety Thread [Re: Hellerdopedc]
#12140748 - 03/04/10 09:18 AM (13 years, 10 months ago) |
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This is for strains, not species. Wood lovers like azures are best cultivated outdoors.
http://www.fungifun.org/English/Psilocybe-Azurescens-Outdoor-Cultivation
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libertaire
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Re: Strain Questions HERE ONLY! [Re: Fahkface]
#12164168 - 03/08/10 11:55 AM (13 years, 10 months ago) |
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Or transekei?
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libertaire
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Re: Strain/Race/Variety Thread [Re: Cyanesense]
#12263088 - 03/24/10 02:16 PM (13 years, 10 months ago) |
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So a discussion has recently come up that can be observed here.
In summary, according to workman, a strain's characteristics can be stabilized using selective printing. That is, certain traits can occur more frequently in subsequent generation's prints if one selects only fruits with certain characteristics for printing. For a more elaborate explanation of this concept, see here.
As a result, I am proposing a strain stabilization project for all who are interested. The project will go as follows:
Phase 1: Agree on the general tendencies of each strain, based on current and previous observations, both first hand and through grow logs that have been posted on the web.
Phase 2: Only select fruits that display what has been agreed upon as the common tendencies of that strain.
Phase 3-1,000: Repeat step two
Prints that have been taken from selected fruits like this can be distributed with a disclaimer that the receiver is expected to only print fruits that exhibit the characteristics of that strain. Eventually, the strains' genetic pools will become smaller and smaller, and subsequent generations will be to look more and more like the "ideal" version of that strain. Eventually, the phrase "A cube is a cube" will become something of the past.
Any thoughts on whether this would work? Anyone interested in participating?
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libertaire
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Re: Strain/Race/Variety Thread [Re: 13shrooms]
#12263192 - 03/24/10 02:32 PM (13 years, 10 months ago) |
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Hm, that makes sense, good point. Guess this is futile then...unless we can get people to clone those "ideal" looking fruits and then take lots of prints of them. But then again, as you said, the genetics reset and are influenced by environmental factors as well, so it would all be pretty pointless. Oh well, I guess a cube will always have to be a cube...
The reason I've been wondering this though, is because has a fairly consistent look to it. So I'm wondering how the creator of PE achieved this phenomenon, and if it's possible to achieve for other strains.
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libertaire
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Re: Strain/Race/Variety Thread [Re: 13shrooms]
#12263459 - 03/24/10 03:08 PM (13 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
13shrooms said: I think it could but you would have to have everyone that ever would have spores of it isolate/clone each time they grew to keep the trait to pass it on to stop the reset from happening. 
idk if you have ever read the article bout PE in my journal but it tells how PE came to be and in the comments after the story workman and a few others chime in on correcting some missinfo in the story.
PE is an anomaly in my opinion but Im thankfull for it. 
Not everyone who has the genetics would have to participate, only those who wish to participate in this project, and we can make up some sort of a name for the generations that are selected for their traits to distinguish them from the non-trait selected genetics of the same strain. Not sure what that name could be though, or how we would identify them.
I don't think PE is an anomaly, I think there's something behind it that we've yet to understand/uncover.
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libertaire
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Re: Strain/Race/Variety Thread [Re: ChaostoOrder]
#12267993 - 03/25/10 06:17 AM (13 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
ChaostoOrder said: what strain is NJ6???? is it a woodlover??? just wondering
I think it's a strain that the keeper made up. It's a cube I believe. He claims it came from the wild in new jersey, which is why I think he made it up because cubes don't grow in the wild in NJ. If they did, I would be finding them every summer.
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libertaire
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Re: Strain/Race/Variety Thread [Re: electrics]
#12268521 - 03/25/10 09:38 AM (13 years, 10 months ago) |
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If you're limited on resources, you can do what I just did with a leucistic fruit that appeared in my latest grow, which is clone it cardboard. Easy way to perpetuate genetics on the fly. Here's a link:
http://www.shroomery.org/8512/Cardboard-Cloning-Tek
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libertaire
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Re: Strain Questions HERE ONLY! [Re: badman]
#12298581 - 03/30/10 11:34 AM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
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I would vote for mexidutchking.
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libertaire
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Good choice.
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