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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #19667578 - 03/08/14 01:00 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
It is not about taking them down, but the fact that if he was that close to the teachings, intellectually understood them, and yet could not apply them, why would a reader expect to gain something the author was unable to?





Well then similarly you could say that you can't expect a book to teach you something cause it never got there itself. :penis:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #19667602 - 03/08/14 01:08 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
My father beat the shit out of me when I was 7 in Arlington National Cemetery, because I said that my little brother should be in some crypt. I was not getting the attention that my 3 year old brother was, but instead of kneeling down and asking me why I'd want my little brother to be in a nasty, dirty crypt, my father went ape-shit on me, as though I had any idea about what death meant. I was stinging from head to toe, but I refused to cry (which, I'm told was usually the case). From that moment on, things changed for me. I never trusted my father again (I did get hit on other occasions), and I never found fatherhood to be desirable, so I never thought to father a child. On Thanksgiving Day 1984, my mentally ill ex-wife left the table. My folks had come to visit from NJ and while sitting silently at the table, eating, my mother suddenly erupted with, "Sy, if you'd spent more time with him, maybe we'd be grandparents by now." I was taken aback, but said nothing. I had even married a cold, non-nurturing woman (who had a tubal ligation without discussion with me) to my great disadvantage. It had lifelong consequences to my professional as well as my personal life for the remainder of my life (including divorce, dating, remarriage, career, forced retirement from said career, and consequences of that to this moment). Getting beat up created a Butterfly Effect in my life.




:frown:

I had an abusive mother too... I have a few memories of her beating me up really bad, but her constant emotional instability, pulling hair out of her head, banging her head against the walls, in front of me, when I was 4, and her messed up life altogether made me hate her to this day. I'm still recovering from all that bullshit, and I would never do to my kids any of the things she did to me. She'll always be my best counter-example.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,066
Re: Alan Watts [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #19667776 - 03/08/14 01:54 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Now just start drinking heavily and then you can write a pseudo-Buddhism book. :thumbup:



that's a great idea
Watts After Watts?
Inspirational puns for wise guys.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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OfflinePyramid Scheme
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: redgreenvines]
    #19667818 - 03/08/14 02:04 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Not a huge fan, I think there were people that said things he said better than he did, more impressively and succinctly than he did, but the beating rumors are bullshit until I see something that says otherwise, I'm not saying it's not possible, it's highly possible given a drunken rage and stress, but habeus corpus, show me the body.

His 'When you get the message, Hang up the phone' Shtick always seemed kind of goofy to me, an oversimplification of an immensely complex experience.

How do u know you got the message? What is the message? Dial that number back up and you might learn something you didn't know XD.

Same with mckenna's caricature of conspiracy theories, off base and indefensible.


--------------------
Oh mortal man, is there anything you cannot be made to believe?

Of all the means I know to lead men, the most effectual is a concealed mystery.

~Adam Weishaupt

Nothing is real, Everything is permitted. ~Hassan I Sabbah

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #19667901 - 03/08/14 02:24 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

I wish I had kids to beat. :sad:


--------------------

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #19667979 - 03/08/14 02:45 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

I suppose we're on the same page with this stuff. My brother had two kids, now in college and out, and he never struck them so they were never fearful of him and always showed affection to him when they were around him. My father didn't like to touch or be touched. I always felt sorry for my mother when I was old enough to realize that, and it explained much of her "emotional incest syndrome" towards me. When I was just 2 or 3, my father would wrestle me on the floor, and I remember coming away crying a couple of times, just from the razor burn he gave me on my face with his beard stubble. There was something covertly cruel going on there. There are SO many dynamics on both sides that I have discovered. We could spend hours trading analyses of our parents' behaviors/conditions and their effects on us.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Offlinezzripz
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: MarkostheGnostic] * 1
    #19668142 - 03/08/14 03:30 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

OKOK my Alan Watts story:

I was 15 and was turned onto LSD!!! This was when it was seriously fukin strong and in pill form.
I dont have to tell you that I had my mind BLOWN. AND that after turning 16 there was other shit going on in my life and having to deal with adolescence. It was TOUGH!!
16 going on 17 I had had to move from the big city where I'd been turned onto LSD and the hippy like lifestyle and dream and move home. Errrm try returning 'home' after many LSD trips---it is not the same as when you left it!! You cant. It was all weird and I had no support for what I had and was going through

ALL i could do was search deep books, hoping some writer would be able to help me integrate what I was going through. I spent AGES going through books, which didn't really hit the mark, and in the period of looking I even had a brief spell joining the hare krishna cult lol

Anyway cutting a long deep story short, one day I went into this radical bookshop determined to find A book, and I found Alan Watts (had never heard of him before) book Cloudhidden Whereabouts Unknown: A Mountain Journal
I nearly read the whole book in the shop! The way he writes is very clear and eloquent, and I was enchanted how he explained things, like you cannot have the foregound without background, pleasure without pain,. light without dark, life without death. it was wonderful and just made the deepest sense to me, and I bought it and must have read it freeaking 10 times over the years. I went onto to buy other books of his, and if there was any dude I would love to chill out with in a greenroom after physical death, it's Alan.
When I finally many years later get online and at last hear and see him, it added even more depth, because his voice has so much expression, and the twinkle in his eye. I LOVE a good sense of humor and he has it in bucket loads.

Edited by zzripz (03/08/14 03:33 PM)

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: zzripz]
    #19668847 - 03/08/14 06:26 PM (10 years, 23 days ago)

Nice story. Just as the right person can turn a bummer into a good trip, Alan watts could likewise turn a bad stretch of life into a good life. Powerful teacher in a gentle Yin approach.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: zzripz]
    #19670536 - 03/09/14 04:18 AM (10 years, 23 days ago)

that is a great set of memories, and I also hold him in that kind of esteem.
you could say he showed me the way, including the way that is not someone else's way but your own.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: redgreenvines]
    #19671626 - 03/09/14 01:28 PM (10 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
that is a great set of memories, and I also hold him in that kind of esteem.
you could say he showed me the way, including the way that is not someone else's way but your own.




The Way of Zen was truly the very first spiritual book I ever read!


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #19671705 - 03/09/14 01:43 PM (10 years, 22 days ago)

Not my words, but in a similar evaluation:

Anonymous said...

We all agree that Alan Watts was a truly special person. I take this to mean I don't have to go on about his innumerable virtues. So I'll get to the point of why I, at this stage of my thinking about the matter, cannot let Alan off the hook for the scandalous personal life he led. To me it's irrelevant that he never claimed to be a saint or any other derivation of the word. Alan spoke authoritatively about the mysteries of life. His words were transformational, indicative of a person who had been to the mountain-top and had seen wondrous things. My feeling is the following: if he really believed all that he preached, how then could he have struggled with depression and alcohol dependence? He maintained that there is one fundamental reality: we are, everything is, ultimately God... which means there is nothing to fear. If he *truly* believed that, the consequence would had to have been happiness - - which leaves no room for deep depression and alcoholism.

This is why his words are now the subject of my doubt. They sound good but evidently had no real purchase in his own life. It seems to me he didn't really believe in his own words. Why then should I?... And to anticipate some of my detractors, this is not about expecting someone to be perfect, to make no mistakes. Ongoing deep depression and alcoholism are not best described as mistakes. Far more illuminating is to view them as symptoms of unhappiness, indicators of the quality of a person's inner state... I am not religious, much less a Christian. But a biblical verse does come to mind at the moment. It basically says something like "you shall know a tree by the fruit that it bears." I heard, with much delight, Alan's beautiful and enchanting words. But the fruit they bore for his *own* life were not those of a liberated, enlightened individual. For this reason, they've become dubious to me.


--------------------

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: OrgoneConclusion] * 1
    #19671956 - 03/09/14 02:52 PM (10 years, 22 days ago)

who ever said that in order to be wise, or illuminated as you put it, one doesn't have to struggle with depression or alcoholism? Discovering a higher goal can and imo usually is different that sticking to it all the time.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #19672047 - 03/09/14 03:13 PM (10 years, 22 days ago)

Would you go to a yoga teacher that was stiff and overweight and could not touch her toes? I doubt it.

People look to Watts and Zen to find their center and some sort of understanding. If he is not transmitting his own knowledge, then he is a merely an entertainer parroting others with greater eloquence. Did he have charisma and charm? Barrelsful. So Watt?

Actions > words. N'est-ce pas?


--------------------

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: OrgoneConclusion] * 1
    #19672085 - 03/09/14 03:23 PM (10 years, 22 days ago)

Maybe I'd go if the person seemed interesting enough. And I think that I am perfectly capable of listening to ideas, filter them and integrate them in a way that's most beneficial for me. Doing psychotherapy with a lot of different people has taught me really well to separate issues and take what's best, in this case for being able to help someone get better, but the same principle applies.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
Re: Alan Watts [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #19672092 - 03/09/14 03:24 PM (10 years, 22 days ago)

In other words, if Watts had read Watts, he might have gotten 'it'.


--------------------

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Registered: 12/02/05
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #19672099 - 03/09/14 03:25 PM (10 years, 22 days ago)

I'm only responsible for what I do. :shrug:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
Re: Alan Watts [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #19672110 - 03/09/14 03:28 PM (10 years, 22 days ago)

That is very selfish!

:woah:


--------------------

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #19672296 - 03/09/14 04:13 PM (10 years, 22 days ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Not my words, but in a similar evaluation:

Anonymous said...

We all agree that Alan Watts was a truly special person. I take this to mean I don't have to go on about his innumerable virtues. So I'll get to the point of why I, at this stage of my thinking about the matter, cannot let Alan off the hook for the scandalous personal life he led. To me it's irrelevant that he never claimed to be a saint or any other derivation of the word. Alan spoke authoritatively about the mysteries of life. His words were transformational, indicative of a person who had been to the mountain-top and had seen wondrous things. My feeling is the following: if he really believed all that he preached, how then could he have struggled with depression and alcohol dependence? He maintained that there is one fundamental reality: we are, everything is, ultimately God... which means there is nothing to fear. If he *truly* believed that, the consequence would had to have been happiness - - which leaves no room for deep depression and alcoholism.

This is why his words are now the subject of my doubt. They sound good but evidently had no real purchase in his own life. It seems to me he didn't really believe in his own words. Why then should I?... And to anticipate some of my detractors, this is not about expecting someone to be perfect, to make no mistakes. Ongoing deep depression and alcoholism are not best described as mistakes. Far more illuminating is to view them as symptoms of unhappiness, indicators of the quality of a person's inner state... I am not religious, much less a Christian. But a biblical verse does come to mind at the moment. It basically says something like "you shall know a tree by the fruit that it bears." I heard, with much delight, Alan's beautiful and enchanting words. But the fruit they bore for his *own* life were not those of a liberated, enlightened individual. For this reason, they've become dubious to me.





I think you are taking this too much like an accountant.
there is no steenkin' bottom line in the way of zen.
it's always a temporary adjustment.
we keep loosing our way
and finding it again.
we are the lost ones.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: redgreenvines]
    #19672779 - 03/09/14 06:22 PM (10 years, 22 days ago)

That path that gets overgrown is not the path. ~ Lao Tzu


--------------------

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Alan Watts [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #19672956 - 03/09/14 07:02 PM (10 years, 22 days ago)

laotsu was lost too


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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