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OfflineKevin
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Incubator I Used
    #1051300 - 11/14/02 12:30 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Azurepower and I came up with this idea back in the day:

Supplies:
2 Sterlite bins (Not Clear) $5 each
Sumbersible Aquarium Heater $25
Thermometer $2-20 (Digital is best)

Take the first bin, and fill about a 1/4 full of water. Place the submersible aquarium heater in the water. Take the other bin and place it inside that bin. Put thermometer in it. Adjust the submersible heater until correct temperature is acquired.

Place jars in top bin when ready. Note the bin sinks into the other one when more weight is applied. This forces water up the sides of the bin, giving equal heating throughout most the incubator.



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"Is it a mile walking, or a mile driving?" - dobie


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OfflineSkikid16
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Re: Incubator I Used [Re: Kevin]
    #1051460 - 11/14/02 01:32 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Why did you cross post this, don't make no sense at all. Besides, although this incubator is effective, I don't think its advanced.


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Offlinesocratesmind
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Re: Incubator I Used [Re: Skikid16]
    #1051496 - 11/14/02 01:56 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

by far and this is a widely widely used method anyway so why the need to reiterate?


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Prohibition will work great injury to the cause of temperance. It is a species of intemperance within itself, for it goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation, and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes. A Prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded.
- Abraham Lincoln: Speech in the Illinois House of Representatives, Dec 18, 1840.

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OfflineMsPacMan
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Re: Incubator I Used [Re: Kevin]
    #1051630 - 11/14/02 03:13 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

its a good idea

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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: Incubator I Used [Re: MsPacMan]
    #1051665 - 11/14/02 04:01 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)


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Offlineblackout
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Re: Incubator I Used [Re: Anno]
    #1051711 - 11/14/02 05:44 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

i cut 4 inch diameter holes in a tupperware 10liter box at the sides. then put filter discs on with silicon. this sat in a larger bucket with perlite and water and a heater. kept it warm and provided a good buffer and it was kept humid and kept nasties out with the filter

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Offlineblackout
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Re: Incubator I Used [Re: blackout]
    #1051713 - 11/14/02 05:45 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

also the holes were low enough that the CO2 was falling out and into the lower bucket

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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: Incubator I Used [Re: blackout]
    #1051716 - 11/14/02 05:50 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

You don?t need this.
CO2 in the developing jars is a natural thing and it supports the growth of the mycelium.

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Offlineshroomologist
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Re: Incubator I Used [Re: Anno]
    #1052021 - 11/14/02 09:36 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

wow, i've only seen THIS method like 2397465876384 times posted here!

dude, its NOT original. Just do a search!

Its a pretty popular method.

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InvisibleShaw

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Re: Incubator I Used [Re: shroomologist]
    #1053587 - 11/14/02 06:59 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

the purpose seemed to be more to take credit for the idea, than to inform people. Several people have come up with this indipendently. It was kind of obvious due to the fact that the containers are designed to stack inside eachother.


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Offlineblackout
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Re: Incubator I Used [Re: Anno]
    #1054711 - 11/15/02 03:23 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

"You don?t need this. CO2 in the developing jars is a natural thing and it supports the growth of the mycelium"

if thats refering to my post. i was using it as the actual fruiting chamber

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OfflineMadcapMagician
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Re: Incubator I Used [Re: Anno]
    #1054857 - 11/15/02 04:34 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Dude, CO2 does NOT support mycelial growth! Fungi are saporophytes, not plants, so they don't use CO2 (and water and sunlight catalysed by chlorophyll) to produce energy, they get their energy from the substrate they live on. They REQUIRE oxygen and they EXCRETE carbon dioxide as a byproduct of energy production. If you were growing green plants and fungi in the same room they would complement each other because plants excrete O2 (that fungi require) and fungi excrete CO2 (that plants require). OK?

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OfflineSkikid16
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Re: Incubator I Used [Re: MadcapMagician]
    #1054877 - 11/15/02 04:49 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Wow, thats great, damn.. HeHeHe HoHo Hehe, whew....


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Offlinegeko127
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Re: Incubator I Used [Re: MadcapMagician]
    #1054982 - 11/15/02 06:35 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Dam i liked the way you described the growth of shrooms and tree's and how they complement each other, I t was like poettry about nature, I sounded so cool when i visualized it, I love nature. :blush: :crazy: :ooo:


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: Incubator I Used [Re: MadcapMagician]
    #1054987 - 11/15/02 06:40 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

>Dude, CO2 does NOT support mycelial growth! Fungi are saporophytes, not
>plants, so they don't use CO2 (and water and sunlight catalysed by chlorophyll)
>to produce energy, they get their energy from the substrate they live on. They
>REQUIRE oxygen and they EXCRETE carbon dioxide as a byproduct of energy
>production. If you were growing green plants and fungi in the same room they
>would complement each other because plants excrete O2 (that fungi require)
>and fungi excrete CO2 (that plants require). OK?

Not OK.
Did you ever bother to read any book? Like The Mushroom Cultivator by Paul Stamets?

Page 126:
"During spawn run the mushroom mycelium generates large quantities of carbon dioxide. In fact, it has been demonstrated that mushroom mycelium is capable of CO2 fixation. Because of this ability to absorb CO2, room concentrations of 10,000-15,000 ppm are considered beneficial and desirable. A CO2 level high enough to stop growth is uncommon under normal circumstances. Being heavier than air, CO2 settles at the bottom of the room, which is yet another reason for even air circulation within the growing environment."

OK?

In my previous post I was refering to the growing of the mycelium through the substrate, NOT the fruiting.

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OfflineSkikid16
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Re: Incubator I Used [Re: MadcapMagician]
    #1055025 - 11/15/02 07:19 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Now you see why I was laughing, oh man, I'm still laughing a little bit, that was great.


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OfflineFunger
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Re: Incubator I Used [Re: Skikid16]
    #1055029 - 11/15/02 07:25 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Someone with a sinlge post arguing with Anno?  :shocked: 

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InvisibleBilge
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Re: Incubator I Used [Re: Funger]
    #1055083 - 11/15/02 08:01 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

hehehehe. like a 2 year old trying to tell an air force pilot how to fly a jet.


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OfflineRaadt
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Re: Incubator I Used [Re: MadcapMagician]
    #1055347 - 11/15/02 10:43 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Wrong. I guess anno explained as well as needs be, though.

"Fungi are saporophytes"


that's funny, i didn't know all fungi were. I could have sworn there were symbiotic relationships, i.e. mycorhizzal...

You need to read up on some of your information.


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: Incubator I Used [Re: MadcapMagician]
    #1055435 - 11/15/02 11:23 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

To shed some more light into how mushrooms digest their food, a good link:
http://bugs.bio.usyd.edu.au/Mycology/feed/extracell.htm

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Incubator I Used [Re: Anno]
    #1056634 - 11/15/02 06:25 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

room concentrations of 10,000-15,000 ppm are considered beneficial and desirable

And anybody that thinks about using that high of a concentration on plants should think again.  Most plants will die if they get much above 3000 ppm.

They [plants] REQUIRE oxygen and they EXCRETE carbon dioxide

Actually, they REQUIRE both and EXCRETE both.  :smile:


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InvisibleShaw

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Re: Incubator I Used [Re: Anno]
    #1058154 - 11/16/02 01:21 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

i'm not disagreeing, but i would then ask what is the point of filter disks on grain jars? They are already sterilized, so the idea is not to prevent contamination. Secondly, why does stamments want 3 complete air changes per hour? Is this not to provide oxygen?


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Incubator I Used [Re: Shaw]
    #1058525 - 11/16/02 04:42 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

but i would then ask what is the point of filter disks on grain jars?

To allow metabolic gases to be released out of the jar and fresh gases into the jar while filtering out microbs.

why does stamments want 3 complete air changes per hour?

To prevent stagnent air pockets from forming which encourage contamination. Also, the optimal co2 concentration is different at the various stages of grown. Spawn run at 5-10k ppm, casing 5-10k ppm, primordia formation <5k ppm, cropping <5k ppm. (Staments, TMC pg 197-199)


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InvisibleShaw

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Re: Incubator I Used [Re: Seuss]
    #1058737 - 11/16/02 06:48 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

one of those gasses being oxygen


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OfflineMadcapMagician
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Re: Incubator I Used [Re: Anno]
    #1072992 - 11/21/02 06:41 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

"During spawn run the mushroom mycelium generates large quantities of carbon dioxide. In fact, it has been demonstrated that mushroom mycelium is capable of CO2 fixation."

The second sentence does not quantify the first! Fixation is where an organism takes up whatever it is going to fix eg Nitrogen fixation is one process by which molecular nitrogen is reduced to form ammonia. CO2 fixation is when green plants (and some algae and cyanobacteria) take up and utilise CO2 during photosynthesis to make carbohydrates. If mycelium GENERATES CO2 then it is NOT fixing it, since fixing requires uptake.

"To shed some more light into how mushrooms digest their food, a good link:
http://bugs.bio.usyd.edu.au/Mycology/feed/extracell.htm "

It is a good link! Here's a direct quote - 'The processes described above require oxygen.' He's talking about fungal growth in compost.

Now, don't get me wrong here; I'm not trying to step on anyones toes, but don't believe everything you read! I have several books on growing...er....medicinal herbs....and different authors say different things - some even contradict each other. Those two sentences at the top should not be in the same paragraph because they contradict each other. First he says mycelium generates CO2, then he says it fixes it!

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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: Incubator I Used [Re: MadcapMagician]
    #1073143 - 11/21/02 08:29 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

>Those two sentences at the top should not be in the same paragraph because
>they contradict each other. First he says mycelium generates CO2, then he says
>it fixes it!

I don?t see a contradiction there.

Take plants: they produce oxygen through photosynthesis, but at the same time also uptake some oxygen through roots and also during the periods of darkness.
Why shouldn?t mycelium be able to do both?

And something that bothers me: why don?t you have the balls to post under your real username? Why did you have to create a puppet to partake at this discussion? Nobody is going to bite your head off if you manifest your opinion.


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OfflineMadcapMagician
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Re: Incubator I Used [Re: Anno]
    #1073202 - 11/21/02 08:58 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

I don't know who you think I am, but this IS my real username! Honest! I only joined about a fortnight ago!

"Take plants: they produce oxygen through photosynthesis, but at the same time also uptake some oxygen through roots and also during the periods of darkness.
Why shouldn?t mycelium be able to do both?"

Agreed, but in plants you're talking about two separate processes - photosynthesis and osmosis. O2 dissolved in soil water is absorbed through the roots; O2 in air (in the case of the leaves) enters the internal structure of the leaf via the stomata. And I still think that since fungi generate ie excrete CO2 they wouldn't re-uptake it. It's excreted 'cos it's not needed. Or am I wrong?

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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: Incubator I Used [Re: MadcapMagician]
    #1073343 - 11/21/02 10:02 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

>Or am I wrong?
Perhaps.
The general consent (among professional growers) seems to be that high CO2 levels(alongside with sufficient oxygen ) during the mycelial growth are beneficial.
For whatever reasons.

2 more documents on this:

Some Thoughts on CO2 Control in Mushroom Culture

by Lee C. Schisler

Many researchers have done extensive experiments with the effects of CO2 (carbon dioxide) on mush?room growth. The following generalities and remarks will be based on their research and some practical ex?periences of my own.

CO2 levels should be maintained at between 5000 or 15,000 ppm during spawn growing, or that portion of the production cycle between casing and the ap?pearance of mushroom mycelium on the casing layer. The time normally required for spawn to reach the surface of the casing is from 6 to 10 days, depending on the material used for casing, depth of the casing layer, moisture content, and temperature in the mushroom house. The house or room is then flushed with fresh air, reducing the CO2 level.

White strains generally require 1000 ppm CO2 or less, whereas light cream strains will fruit at 1500 ppm CO2 or less. As I have had little experience with off-white and old-fashioned brown strains, I cannot give you good figures for these. Spawnmakers sup?plying these strains generally have this information. This level of CO2 should be held constant until the mushrooms enter the rapid stage of enlargement (when caps reach 0.5 to 0.75 inch in diameter). The CO2 should then be raised an additional 500 ppm to enhance enlargement of the mushrooms. For most white strains this would be adjusting to 1500 ppm and maintaining that level until the end of the crop; for light cream, it would be 2000 ppm.

After having said all of this, let me qualify it by stating that these levels of CO2, especially those given for after casing, are for a point 2 inches above the casing layer in a forced-air ventilation system with good air distribution. It is important to add that the stated levels will vary according to the peculiar cultural properties you provide to the crop.

In summary, CO2 levels can be controlled in mush?room houses by regulating ventilation. Ventilation procedures will vary from farm to farm. In general, however, regulation of ventilation should provide for higher CO2 levels (5000-15,000 ppm) during spawn growth and immediately after casing. A sharp in?crease in fresh air introduction should follow (thereby reducing the CO2 level) to allow for optimum pin?ning. The proper CO2 level at this point will vary ac?cording to the strain of mushroom being grown. After mushrooms begin to enter their rapid stage of enlargement, fresh air ventilation can be slightly re?duced, allowing an approximate 500-ppm increase in CO2 levels, which should assist in "sizing" mush?rooms and facilitate picking. This CO2 level should be maintained throughout the remainder of the pick?ing period.




"New" Innovations For Efficient Mushroom Growing

by Lee C. Schisler

I have been asked from time to time to rate commer?cial mushroom growing, based on present-day knowledge, in terms of biological efficiency. In other words, how many pounds of mushrooms per pound dry weight of compost should a commercial farm ex?pect to produce in a 35-day pick with the knowledge and innovations available to us today? My ratings in terms of lb yield per lb dry weight of compost are as follows:

0.3 to 0.5 lb yield/lb dry compost = poor 0.5 to 0.7 lb yield/lb dry compost = average 0.7 to 0.9 lb yield/lb dry compost = good 1.0 or more lb yield/lb dry compost = excellent

Whether or not you agree with my ratings or whether this criterion is even valid for evaluation of a mush?room farm is a matter of opinion. However, regard?less of opinions, let me ask the following two ques?tions: 'How does your farm rank in the above ratings?' and 'What new innovations - if any -should you adopt to achieve a desired rank?' These are questions only you, the grower, can answer.

To begin, may I suggest at least a few ways to reach a high rating, primarily by taking a new look at "old" methods.

1) Composting. Follow the short composting method of compost preparation:

a) Phase I. Use proper raw materials and supple?mentation schedules so as to achieve a nitrogen level of 1.5 percent prior to the initiation of com?posting. Proper composting temperatures should be obtained in the compost piles (160? to 175?F). There should be no leaching from the piles at any time, thus eliminating anaerobic areas in the pile. Insure proper moisture regulation during Phase I as follows: Add as much water as possible without run off at first two turns; add only enough during the next turn or turns to wet dry spots; and bring up to the desired moisture content (70 to 75%) by adequate watering just before filling. Phase Ishould be completed in 5 to 7 days, depending upon the raw ingredients used. At tray or bed fill?ing, add vegetable oil at rate of 110 US gallons (90 Imperial gallons)/4000 ft2 of compost filled to a depth of 6 to 7 inches.

b) Phase II. Follow a proper temperature sequence during Phase II. Keep compost temperatures be?tween 140? and 115?F. Never allow recycling (re?heating) to occur. Provide for a proper pasteuriza?tion (140?F in the air and compost for a minimum of 2 hours) generally 1 to 2 days after filling. A 7-day period is the maximum duration required for a proper Phase II. The easiest and best way to accom?plish a proper phase II is to automate it. The Penn State Mushroom Test Demonstration Facility is such a system, and is described in Mushroom Science (IX:269-278, 1976).

2) Spawning. Use mixed spawning at the proper rate (one unit spawn for each 8 ft2 of area is adequate for most operations). Thoroughly mix in delayed-release supplement at the rate of 5 to 7 percent of the dry weight of compost.

3) Spawn growing. Maintain compost temperatures between 73? and 79?F at all times; the closer to 75?, the better. Never allow compost temperatures to exceed 82?F. Maintain an adequate CO2 level (between 6000 and 12,000 ppm) during the spawn-growing period. The compost should be fully grown and ready for cas? ing in 12 to 14 days.

4) Casing. Use the proper depth of casing layer; this varies, depending upon the casing material being used. For instance, a peat might require a casing layer depth of 1.75 inches, whereas a heavy clay soil might require only 0.75 inch to 1 inch depth. Insure proper treatment of the casing material to eliminate pests.

5)>Watering. I cannot descilbe a single watering method which will be best for all mushroom-growing operations - environmental conditions, cultural practices, and other things vary from operation to opera?tion, requiring modifications of the watering regime. However, the following general procedures should be followed: insure adequate initial water buildup im?mediately after casing. Bring casing layer back up to its water-holding capacity just prior to first break by adequate waterings. Between breaks, insure ade?quate buildup of water in the casing layer to meet the water requirements of the next flush.

6) Ventilation after casing. Provide for relatively high initial CO2 levels (5000 to 10,000 ppm) until the mushroom mycelium reaches the surface of the cas? ing layer. Reduce the CO2 level immediately there? after to 600-1200 ppm depending upon the strain of spawn being used) for proper pinning. After pins are setandbegintoenlarge,adjustCO2 levelto 1500-2000 ppm (depending again on strain) for en? largement of first break and the remainder of crop? ping.ManualCO2 samplingandadjustmentof dampers to control CO2 levels is satisfactory but au? tomation as descrlbed at the Penn State Mushroom TestDemonstrationFacility(MushroomScience IX:269-278, 1976) is feaslble and may be better suited for some operations.

7) Cropping. Practice good disease prevention by fol? lowing a few simple rules:

a) Pick mushrooms closed - never allow open mushrooms around the plant.

b) Maintain a good benomyl program - according to approved label instructions.

c) Maintain a good zineb dusting program - ac? cording to approved label instructions.

d) Employ a good general sanitation and spot-treat? ment program. Keep picking utensils clean, always pick newest rooms first, etc. Spot treat infection centers of Verticilium, Mycogone, Trichoderma, etc., with 15% HTH powder immediately.

e) Maintain a good fly-control program by follow? ing current legal and recommended practices.

Let me close with a little philosophy. I have observed that severe difficulties are encountered in mushroom growing when decisions on the adoption of new in?novations in mushroom culture were based solely on the following three reasons - rather than on the needs of the mushroom:

1) To accommodate the labor force.

2) To accommodate mechanization and/or materials handling.

3) As a short-term economic expediency.

Summary

Efficient mushroom production can be achieved by taking a new look at "old" methods. Steady progress has been and will continue to be made in mushroom production due to the intelligent and practical appli?cation of sound research findings by dedicated mush?room growers.


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OfflineMadcapMagician
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Re: Incubator I Used [Re: Anno]
    #1073510 - 11/21/02 11:12 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Do you not think that CO2 acts as a trigger to spawning, much as light in fruiting? ie the shrooms don't require CO2 to live, but they do require it to be 'switched on' (for want of a better phrase).

Am I explaining myself correctly? As I understand it, P.cubensis requires light in order to stimulate fruiting growth, but not actually to respirate (biological definition - NOT breathing!) as photosynthetic organisms do. I'm assuming that CO2 works in the same way ie as a growth trigger, not as a growth requirement.

Think about it - fungal growth initiates in a compost heap in a relatively anaerobic environment, yet the shrooms continue to live on exposure to air, and thus O2 - most anaerobic organisms that I am aware of die on exposure to O2. (Gangrene is one example of this.)

Commercial growth may require CO2 being added to the atmosphere because conditions are artificial and on a much larger scale than in a natural environment.

At the end of the day, I'm just extrapolating from what I know, but it makes sense to me! ;-)


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OfflineOn_the_Down-Low
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Re: Incubator I Used [Re: MadcapMagician]
    #1074718 - 11/21/02 06:14 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

The info did beg the CO2 question, but how would that situation occur in nature?

How did this POS thread bring out such good info?

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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: Incubator I Used [Re: On_the_Down-Low]
    #1074849 - 11/21/02 07:02 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

>How did this POS thread bring out such good info?

Magic :wink:

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OfflineOn_the_Down-Low
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Re: Incubator I Used [Re: Anno]
    #1074879 - 11/21/02 07:15 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Ahhh..the shrooms work in mysterious ways.


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OfflineSuntzu
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Re: Incubator I Used [Re: Anno]
    #1076486 - 11/22/02 09:59 AM (21 years, 7 months ago)

Anno, I'm going to poke around and see if I can find that or another reference to the fungal carbon-fixing. I've never heard of it, would love to see how/if they really do it.

Here's a great reference for the elevated CO2 question:

http://www.mluri.sari.ac.uk/annualreport/1998/co2-98.pdf

Carbon to nitrogen ratio appears to be a key.

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OfflineGhostPanther
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Registered: 11/08/02
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Re: Incubator I Used [Re: Anno]
    #1076922 - 11/22/02 12:55 PM (21 years, 7 months ago)

even though this started as a common incubator plan and then turned into somewhat of an argument over oxygen and carbon dioxide, many interesting links and processes have been brought up. now thats what i think of when i see "advanced mushroom cultivation." keep the good dialogue comin.


--------------------
...........

http://overgrow.com
http://buddhanet.net

Edited by GhostPanther (11/22/02 12:57 PM)

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