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InvisibleSenor_Doobie
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Go Vegan
    #10504192 - 06/14/09 11:58 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Tofu:  Its What's For Dinner


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)


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Invisiblemr.bixby
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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #10531329 - 06/18/09 04:29 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Senor_Doobie said:
Tofu:  Its What's For Dinner




Care to elaborate?


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #10536899 - 06/19/09 01:21 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Phytoestrogens:  Its What's For Dinner


Tofu is nice for menopausal women, its not as great for men.


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InvisibleSenor_Doobie
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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Asante]
    #10537404 - 06/19/09 02:41 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Care to cite those claims?

There's a lot more to tofu than phitoestrogen.  Like all 8 essential amino acids.

I like mine sauteed in pepper and garlic infused oil and served over a bed of baby spinach.


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)


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Offlinerunrun
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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #10541407 - 06/20/09 06:21 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Senor_Doobie said:
Care to cite those claims?

There's a lot more to tofu than phitoestrogen.  Like all 8 essential amino acids.

I like mine sauteed in pepper and garlic infused oil and served over a bed of baby spinach.




I've been a vegetarian for a few years, and ate tofu once or twice a month before that.. No side effects that I'm aware of.  It's cool how it takes the flavor of whatever you're cooking with..  I prefer the consistency of tempeh over tofu, personally.

Most people who bash soy products probably eat chicken pumped with hormones. :ohwell:  It's a good idea to avoid eating any one thing in excess.  You probably shouldn't eat soy 3x a day, just like you shouldn't eat steak 3x a day.  Everything in moderation, and eating a wide variety of foods helps you get your vitamins and antioxidants.


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InvisibleGalvie_Flu
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Re: Go Vegan [Re: runrun]
    #10544817 - 06/20/09 10:20 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

I dont care much for tofu or soy products in general.

There is a misconception that vegans all love tofu which is just not true.


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InvisibleMisterMuscaria
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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Galvie_Flu]
    #10544887 - 06/20/09 10:34 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Tofu is excellent when it is baked and great deep fried. Most people dislike tofu because they dont know how to prepare it properly.


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #10560591 - 06/23/09 05:41 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Sure, I'll cite that claim and ad about a dozen more.

Tofu is a factory food, chemically processed from genetically modified beans which are poisonous in their unprocessed state. A small portion of Tofu holds more estrogen-equivalents than a birth control pill.
Want some more?



Is soy healthy?
Soy is not the health food that you think it is.


From tofu and tacos to baby formula and burgers, soy products have swept the nation as a healthy source of protein, with a reputation for being all natural and good for you. New studies have however raised questions over whether the ingredients in soy might increase the risk of breast cancer in some women, affect brain function in men and lead to hidden developmental ab-normalities in infants.
soy

The core of their concerns rests with the chemical makeup of soy: in addition to all the nutrients and protein, soy contains a natural chemical that mimics estrogen, the female hormone. Some studies in animals show that this chemical can alter sexual development. And in fact, 2 glasses of soy milk/day, over the course of one month, contain enough of the chemical to change the timing of a woman’s menstrual cycle.
Isoflavones in soybeans

Soybeans contain an impressive array of phytochemicals (biologically active components derived from plants), the most interesting of which are known as isoflavones. Isoflavones are the compounds which are being studied in relation to the relief of certain menopausal symptoms, cancer prevention, slowing or reversing osteoporosis and reducing the risk of heart disease.

Soy critics point to the fact that soybeans, as provided by nature, are not suitable for human consumption. Only after fermentation for some time, or extensive processing, including chemical extractions and high temperatures, are the beans, or the soy protein isolate, suitable for digestion when eaten.

Soybeans also reportedly contain an anti-nutrient called "phytic acid", which all beans do. However, soybeans have higher levels of phytic acid than any other legume. Phytic acid may block the absorption of certain minerals, including magnesium, calcium, iron and zinc. Epidemiological studies have shown that people in 3rd World Countries who have high consumption of grains and soy also commonly have deficiencies in these minerals. It must also be noted that this may be of particular concern with regard to babies who are using soy-based infant formulas.
What is the truth when it comes to soy?

So how does one get to the truth when it comes to soy? Usually, the first question I ask is… "Where is the money? Who has something to be gained from one side or the other?" With the soy issue, there does not seem to be an easy answer here either… and that's because there appear to be strong financial incentives on both sides of the argument.

Who has something to gain from the consumption of soy? Perhaps companies like Monsanto which produce the genetically modified soybean seeds. Perhaps companies like Cargill Foods or SoyLife which produce countless soy-based foods. Or soybean councils in several states which represent farmers who grow this new, emerging bumper crop. And, of course, all of the companies which are constructing factories all over the world to do the processing which is necessary to make soybeans edible.
Soy - more negatives than positives

I feel the positive aspects of the soybean are overshadowed by their potential for harm. Soybeans in fact contain a large number of dangerous substances. We already mentionned "phytic acid", also called "phytates". This organic acid is present in the bran or hulls of all seeds and legumes, but none have the high level of phytates which soybeans do. Phytic acid blocks the body's uptake of essential minerals like magnesium, calcium, iron and especially zinc. Adding to the high phytate problem, soybeans are highly resistant to phytate-reducing techniques, such as long, slow cooking.

Soybeans also contain potent enzyme-inhibitors. These inhibitors block uptake of trypsin and other enzymes which the body needs for protein digestion. Normal cooking does not de-activate these harmful antinutrients, which can cause serious gastric distress, reduced protein digestion and can lead to chronic deficiencies in amino acid uptake.

In addition, soybeans also contain hemagglutinin, a clot-promoting substance which causes red blood cells to clump together. These clustered blood cells cannot properly absorb oxygen for distribution to the body's tissues, and are unable to help in maintaining good cardiac health.

Hemagglutinin and trypsin inhibitors are both "growth depressant" substances. Although the act of fermenting soybeans does de-activate both hemagglutinin and trypsin inhibitors, cooking and precipitation do not. Although these enzyme inhibitors are found in reduced levels within precipitated soy products like tofu, they are not completely eliminated. For this reason, if you are going to consume soy, I would recommend limiting your soy use to fermented products only, like tempeh or miso.

Only after a long period of fermentation (as ocurs in the creation of miso or tempeh) are the antinutrient and phytate levels of soybeans reduced, making their nourishment available to the human digestive system. The high level of harmful substances remaining in precipitated soy products leaves their nutritional value questionable at best, and potentially harmful.


Soy and hormonal balance

Just because tofu is of vegetable origin does not necessarily make it healthy.

Health-conscious Americans believe in the benefits of tofu, infant formula and other food products made from soybeans and soy extract. But their assumption is now being called into question by Jill Schneider, associate professor of biological sciences at Lehigh University in Bethlehem, Pennsylvania.

In a study of hamsters completed under Schneider's direction, it was recently found that a component of soy beans - isoflavones - significantly accelerated the onset of puberty in the rodents.

These findings, which are similar to the results reported by labs which have experimented with rats, might be relevant to humans, Schneider says. She points out that many babies who are allergic to cow's milk are fed soy-based formulas which contain isoflavones. Isoflavones, she says, can act like estrogen, a natural hormone important in the development of both male and female humans.

It is child abuse to feed a baby soy formula. A baby fed soy will receive, through the phytoestrogens, the equivalent of approximately 5 birth control pills per day! The damage is incalculable.
There are other reasons to stay away from soy

A very large percentage of soy - over 90% - is genetically modified and it also has one of the highest percentages contamination by pesticides of any of the foods we eat.
Soy processors have worked hard to get these anti-nutrients out of the finished product, particularly soy protein isolate (SPI) which is the key ingredient in most soy foods which imitate meat and dairy products, including baby formulas and some brands of soy milk.
soy protein isolate

SPI is not something you can make in your own kitchen. Production takes place in industrial factories where soybeans are first mixed with an alkaline solution to remove fiber, then precipitated and separated using an acid wash and, finally, neutralized in an alkaline solution.
Acid washing in aluminum tanks leaches high levels of aluminum into the final product. As a result, soy-based formula also has over 1000% more aluminum than conventional milk based formulas. Breast milk is best, but if one, for whatever reason, cannot breast feed, then Carnation Good Start until six months and Carnation FollowUp after that seem to be the best commercial formula currently available. The milk protein is hydrolyzed 80% which tends to significantly decrease its allergenicity.

Finally, the resulting curds are spray-dried at high temperatures to produce a high-protein powder. A final hardship to the original soybean is high-temperature, high-pressure extrusion processing of soy protein isolate to produce textured vegetable protein.

Nitrites, which are potent carcinogens, are formed during spray-drying, and a toxin called "lysinoalanine" is formed during alkaline processing.(1) Numerous artificial flavorings, particularly MSG, are added to soy protein isolate and textured vegetable protein products to mask their strong "beany" taste and to impart the flavor of meat.(2)

Yet soy protein isolate and textured vegetable protein are used extensively in school lunch programs, commercial baked goods, fast food products and diet beverages. They are heavily promoted in 3rd world countries and form the basis of many food giveaway programs.
Marketing and soy

All soybean producers pay a mandatory assessment of 0.5% to 1% of the net market price of soybeans. The total - something like US $80 million annually(3) - supports United Soybean's program to "strengthen the position of soybeans in the marketplace and maintain and expand domestic and foreign markets for uses for soybeans and soybean products".

State soybean councils from Maryland, Nebraska, Delaware, Arkansas, Virginia, North Dakota and Michigan provide another $2.5 million for "research".(4) Private companies like Archer Daniels Midland also contribute their share. ADM spent $4.7 million for advertising on the TV shor "Meet the Press" and $4.3 million on "Face the Nation" during the course of a year.(5)

Public relations firms help convert research projects into advertising copy and newspaper articles, and law firms lobby for favorable government regulations. IMF money funds soy-processing plants in foreign countries, and free-trade policies keep soybean abundance flowing to overseas destinations.

Soy milk has posted the biggest gains, soaring from $2 million in 1980 to $300 million in the US in 2001.(6) Recent advances in processing have transformed the bitter, gray, beany-tasting Asian beverage into a product that Western consumers will accept - one that tastes like a milkshake, but without the guilt.
What about soy offering protection against cancer?

Some sources claim that "soy has demonstrated powerful anticancer benefits...the Japanese, who eat 30 times as much soy as North Americans, have a lower incidence of cancers of the breast, uterus and prostate."(7)

Indeed they do. But the Japanese, and Asians in general, have much higher rates of other types of cancer, particularly cancer of the esophagus, stomach, liver and pancreas.(8) Asians throughout the world also have high rates of thyroid cancer.(9) The logic which links low rates of reproductive cancers to soy consumption requires attribution of high rates of thyroid and digestive cancers to the same foods, particularly as soy causes these types of cancers in laboratory rats.

In 1991, Japanese researchers reported that consumption of as little as 30 grams or 2 tablespoons of soybeans/day for only 1 month resulted in a significant increase in thyroid-stimulating hormone.(10) Diffuse goiter and hypothyroidism appeared in some of the subjects and many complained of constipation, lethargy and fatigue, even though their intake of iodine was adequate.

25 grams of soy protein isolate, the minimum amount claimed to have cholesterol-lowering effects, contains from 50 to 70 mg of isoflavones. It took only 45 mg of isoflavones in pre-menopausal women to exert significant biological effects, including a reduction in hormones needed for adequate thyroid function. These effects lingered for 3 months after soy consumption was discontinued.(11)

In 1992, the Swiss health service estimated that 100 grams of soy protein provided the estrogenic equivalent of the Pill.(12)
Soy formula: Birth control pills for infants
But it is the isoflavones in infant formula which give the most cause for concern. In 1998, investigators reported that the daily exposure of infants to isoflavones in soy infant formula is 6 to 11 times higher on a body-weight basis than the dose that has hormonal effects in adults consuming soy foods. Circulating concentrations of isoflavones in infants who were fed soy-based formula were 13,000 to 22,000 times higher than plasma estradiol concentrations in infants on cow's milk formula.(13)
soy formula

Approximately 25% of bottle-fed children in the US receive soy-based formula - a much higher percentage than in other parts of the Western world. It is estimated that an infant exclusively fed soy formula receives the estrogen equivalent (based on body weight) of at least 5 birth control pills per day.(14) By contrast, almost no phytoestrogens have been detected in dairy-based infant formula or in human milk, even when the mother consumes soy products.





References:

(1). Rackis, et al., ibid., p. 22; "Evaluation of the Health Aspects of Soy Protein Isolates as Food Ingredients", prepared for FDA by Life Sciences Research Office, Federation of American Societies for Experimental Biology (9650 Rockville Pike, Bethesda, MD 20014), USA, Contract No. FDA 223-75-2004, 1979.

(2). See www/truthinlabeling.org.

(3). See www/unitedsoybean.org.

(4). These are listed in www.soyonlineservice.co.nz.

(5). Wall Street Journal, October 27, 1995.

(6). Urquhart, John, "A Health Food Hits Big Time", Wall Street Journal, August 3, 1999, p. B1

(7). Natural Medicine News (L & H Vitamins, 32-33 47th Avenue, Long Island City, NY 11101), USA, January/February 2000, p. 8.
(8). Harras, Angela (ed.), Cancer Rates and Risks, National Institutes of Health, National Cancer Institute, 1996, 4th edition.
(9). Searle, Charles E. (ed.), Chemical Carcinogens, ACS Monograph 173, American Chemical Society, Washington, DC, 1976.

(10). Ishizuki, Y. et al., "The effects on the thyroid gland of soybeans administered experimentally in healthy subjects", Nippon Naibunpi Gakkai Zasshi (1991) 767:622-629.

(11). Cassidy, A. et al., "Biological Effects of a Diet of Soy Protein Rich in Isoflavones on the Menstrual Cycle of Premenopausal Women", American Journal of Clinical Nutrition (1994) 60:333-340.

(12). Bulletin de L'Office Fédéral de la Santé Publique, no. 28, July 20, 1992.

(13). Setchell, K.D. et al., "Isoflavone content of infant formulas and the metabolic fate of these early phytoestrogens in early life", American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, December 1998 Supplement, 1453S-1461S.

(14). Irvine, C. et al., "The Potential Adverse Effects of Soybean Phytoestrogens in Infant Feeding", New Zealand Medical Journal May 24, 1995, p. 318.


--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
higher knowledge starts here


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InvisibleMisterMuscaria
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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Asante]
    #10560838 - 06/23/09 06:42 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

I always preferred tempeh to tofu anyway.


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InvisibleSenor_Doobie
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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Asante]
    #10564385 - 06/24/09 11:44 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

There have been studies done that link high animal protien/fat diets to cancer of the liver, breast, colon, lung and more.

You think $80 million is a powerful industry?  Compare it to the combined revenues of the milk, egg, lard, and meat industries.  Direct correlations have been made in studies of mice and rats fed high animal protein and fat diets for various types of cancer with various types of carcinogens including viral as well as chemical.

There are also inverse relationships between animals fed a low-level animal protein diet and the occurrence of cancers as well as similar relationships between diets consisting of no animal foods and cancer.

Human studies corroborate these findings and also show that animal-based diets like we have in the west correlate directly to heart disease, diabetes, high cholesterol, and higher estrogen levels in women.  For example, the average age a woman has her first period in the US is 11, compared to 15-16 in China.  The female reproductive life is also 25 percent shorter in China, a country whose intake of animal proteins and fats is a fraction of ours.

The article you post also complains about the intense manufacturing process of items like tofu.  Keep in mind please that no chicken is ready to eat right off the tree.  It has to be slaughtered, plucked, hacked, and ultimately cooked in order to be safe.  Milk is pasteurized.  Animals are fed artificial hormones.  The industry is factorial in every aspect.

There may be evidence linking soy to health problems, but those studies need to be examined to see whether meat and meat byproducts were also eaten by the variable group during the experimentation.  If so, I would look to the meat as the primary cause of the found health concerns, as there is extensive research showing the consumption of meat to be completely unhealthy.


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)


Edited by Senor_Doobie (06/24/09 11:49 AM)


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Invisiblerod
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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Asante]
    #10566034 - 06/24/09 05:06 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Wiccan_Seeker said:
Phytoestrogens:  Its What's For Dinner


Tofu is nice for menopausal women, its not as great for men.




I,ve been reading about this the last few days, tends to make males take on characteristics
of women, and lead to ED, limp dick. Tofu, soy milk, and other soy products,
if a male tends to consume a lot and frequent.

I,m not going near this stuff again.


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InvisibleMisterMuscaria
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Re: Go Vegan [Re: rod]
    #10566073 - 06/24/09 05:13 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

I dont think Ill ever have to worry about ED or limp dick.
I have some manboobs, that could be soy related.


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #10575241 - 06/26/09 04:41 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

There have been studies done that link high animal protien/fat diets to cancer of the liver, breast, colon, lung and more.





I'm not saying eating meat is healthy (or even ethical - I have Earthlings in my sig for a reason) but Soy/Tofu appears to be one of those made-up foodstuffs like aspartame that are rendered edible by heavy processing only.

Over a billion vegetarians (think India and regions of Africa) are getting by without meat and without Tofu - provided they have enough cash to buy food in the first place, or grow their own.

If you had a farm, where a happy cow provides you with milk and a couple happy chickens lay an egg a day - would you still be vegan? Or are you Vegan because the animals where these foods tend to come from in reality are very far from happy?

Whats your motivation to be vegan, and do you eat vitamin pills?


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InvisibleSenor_Doobie
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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Asante]
    #10575693 - 06/26/09 08:47 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Primary motivation is spiritual, but the health benefits make it a no-brainer. 

In fact for me, the health benefits substantiate the spiritual desire to do no harm to other sentient beings.

Happy chickens producing happy eggs fall in line as acceptable in my view and the consumption of eggs from that chicken can be healthy as long as it takes up a very small percentage of total caloric intake and that the rest of the calories are derived from whole fruits, vegetables, and grains.  Studies show that there is a direct correlation between the proportion of a diet consisting of animal protein and cancer.  The amount of animal fat without substantial health risk is somewhere around 14 percent of total caloric intake. 

So if you eat those eggs, you have to eat more of everything else in order to optimize your health which gets more expensive and strenuous on the environment. 

Hopefully, you can see how the spiritual and health benefits are joined.  The body is a temple afterall.


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)


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InvisibleMisterMuscaria
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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #10577984 - 06/26/09 05:31 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Personally I believe chicken eggs are only meant for chicken fetuses and cow's milk is only meant for calves.


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Re: Go Vegan [Re: MisterMuscaria]
    #10578282 - 06/26/09 06:28 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

I believe humans are omnivores, like many other animals and that a diet containing animal products is not inherently, but can be healthier than one without.


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After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

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He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Asante]
    #10579489 - 06/26/09 10:31 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Thanks for the heads up.

The wiki on Soybeans seems pretty informative.


--------------------
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InvisibleMOTH
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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #10580633 - 06/27/09 06:49 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

You don't need soy to be a healthy, happy vegan.  :thumbup:


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InvisibleSenor_Doobie
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Re: Go Vegan [Re: MisterMuscaria]
    #10586754 - 06/28/09 02:37 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Your beliefs are not in line with what science has shown.


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)


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OfflineAndre Nickatina
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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #10587113 - 06/28/09 03:47 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Fuck tofu and soy, go raw vegan!


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Asante]
    #10591369 - 06/29/09 08:35 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

> Soy/Tofu appears to be one of those made-up foodstuffs like aspartame that are rendered edible by heavy processing only.

You're kidding, yes?  Tofu is no harder to make than mozzarella cheese.  Soak soybeans over night, blend them up, strain them through a cheese cloth and collect the soy milk.  Heat the soy milk to a boil, let cool to 80F, add calcium sulfate, collect curds, and press into forms.


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Seuss]
    #10591582 - 06/29/09 10:02 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

It sounds simple, and I've seen it done and it is relatively easy.

But you have to wonder who first thought of doing that all those thousands of years ago.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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InvisibleStein
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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #10591679 - 06/29/09 10:34 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
But you have to wonder who first thought of doing that all those thousands of years ago.




I think it was this guy :argh:


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InvisibleSenor_Doobie
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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Stein]
    #10598122 - 06/30/09 02:33 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

So, is it just common knowledge then that meat is responsible for most of today's deadliest diseases or is the assertion just being ignored by everybody?


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Seuss]
    #10599001 - 06/30/09 05:15 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

I agree, heavy processing might be strongly put.

Still, there is no such thing as traditional soy eating. In Asia soy was grown because it fixates nitrogen to grow foodcrops, not to be eaten. Its only being eaten since the 1920s. Its a made-up industrial food.

Raw soy is toxic. It needs processing to be rendered edible. It gives rats pancreatic cancer unless its treated, for one.

89% of all soy grown in the US is genetically modified to allow heavy use of pesticides without the soy dying. Bon appetit :S


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InvisibleSenor_Doobie
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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Asante]
    #10599946 - 06/30/09 08:02 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Ignored then.


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)


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OfflineHypercube
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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #10600919 - 06/30/09 11:05 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

You bickering hippies need to get one thing straight. :tongue: Tofu tastes like cardboard.  Meat tastes great.

Adding tofu to a meal is like watering down a good wine.  IMO it only takes on the flavor of what it's cooked with and contributes little of its own.

And I gotta agree with runrun here that a balanced diet is healthier than one that abides by strict rules based on dietary ideology.  Say all you want about animal products but you cannot deny that they taste fucking amazing and that, if nothing else, is a testament to their benefit to the human condition.

Also, you guys have to come to grips sometime this century that GMOs are not poisonous. :smirk:

/end shit disturbance


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Hypercube]
    #10601188 - 06/30/09 11:53 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

I agree with almost everything you said.

I love meat, am a firm proponent of GM foods, and think that eating a balanced diet including animal products is the healthiest way to live.

But I can't believe you don't like tofu.

It's fucking great.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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Offlinezathis
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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #10601626 - 07/01/09 01:59 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

I'm an ex vegetarian, but i still love plain tofu, i can just chomp it right out of the carton


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Hypercube]
    #10601905 - 07/01/09 05:34 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Tofu tastes like cardboard.  Meat tastes great.





Nonsense, Tofu is yummy, it just isn't that healthy and shouldn't be looked at as a meat replacement, but as a cheese replacement.

Dice unpeeled potatoes, tofu, paprika, onions, bake and add some salt and cayenne... Tasty shit!


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InvisibleSenor_Doobie
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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Hypercube]
    #10602495 - 07/01/09 09:33 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Hypercube said:

And I gotta agree with runrun here that a balanced diet is healthier than one that abides by strict rules based on dietary ideology.  Say all you want about animal products but you cannot deny that they taste fucking amazing and that, if nothing else, is a testament to their benefit to the human condition.





You can agree with someone all you want but that doesn't make it true.  A safe amount of animal fat and protien is around 14 percent of total caloric intake, and only then if the rest of your calories come from whole grains, fruits, and vegetables.

People who eat that much are far and away healthier than people who eat more.  So, if that's what you mean by "balance", you are correct.

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/112672327/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0

"The 1978-1979 mortality rates for cancers of the breast, prostate, ovary, and colon in 26 to 30 countries were related to the average 1979-1981 food availability data published by the United Nations. The previously described relationship between breast cancer mortality rates and animal fat consumption continues to be evident, and applies also to the other three tumor types. The correlation with breast cancer was particularly strong in postmenopausal women. Since 1964, particularly notable increases in both breast cancer mortality rate and dietary fat intake have occurred in those countries with a relatively low breast cancer risk. The international comparisons support evidence from animal experiments that diets in which olive oil is a major source of fat are associated with reduced breast cancer risk."

http://www.jstor.org/pss/3702827

"Whereas case-control studies have been very consistent in suggesting a positive association between intake of dietary fat, especially animal fat, and prostate cancer, the results from past cohort studies have been mostly inconclusive. In this study, we evaluated consumption of high-fat animal products, raw vegetables, and fresh fruits, as well as obesity, smoking, and drinking, in relation to subsequent occurrence of prostate cancer. We studied a cohort of 20,316 men of various ethnicities interviewed between 1975 and 1980 in Hawaii. As of December 1989, 198 incident cases with invasive prostate cancer were identified by computer-assisted linkage of this cohort to the statewide Surveillance, Epidemiology, and End Results registry. Relative risks (RRs) for prostate cancer computed by proportional hazards regression were elevated for intake of beef [RR for highest to lowest tertile of intake = 1.6; 95% confidence interval (CI) = 1.1-2.4] and milk (RR = 1.4; 95% CI = 1.0-2.1), and for a summary variable for intake of high-fat animal products (RR = 1.6; 95% CI = 1.0-2.4). Weight was not consistently associated with prostate cancer, but there was an association with height (>167 cm) (RR = 1.8; 95% CI = 1.0-3.2 for the third and fourth quartiles relative to the lowest quartile in height). These associations were stronger in men diagnosed before age 72.5 years. The risk estimates for raw vegetable and fresh fruit intakes were close to 1.0. Smoking and alcohol drinking appeared to be unrelated to risk. This study provides further evidence for a role of animal fat in the etiology of prostate cancer and indicates that it may act by shortening the latency period of the disease."

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/63/5/741

"We examined the correlation between the incidence of Crohn disease and dietary change in a relatively homogeneous Japanese population. The incidence and daily intake of each dietary component were compared annually from 1966 to 1985. The univariate analysis showed that the increased incidence of Crohn disease was strongly (P < 0.001) correlated with increased dietary intake of total fat (r = 0.919). animal fat (r = 0.880), n-6 polyunsaturated fatty acids (r = 0.883), animal protein (r = 0.908), milk protein (r = 0.924), and the ratio of n-6 to n-3 fatty acid intake (r = 0.792). It was less correlated with intake of total protein (r = 0.482, P < 0.05), was not correlated with intake of fish protein (r = 0.055, P > 0.1), and was inversely correlated with intake of vegetable protein (r = -0.941, P < 0.001)"

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/ajcn;73/1/118

"A high ratio of dietary animal to vegetable protein increases the rate of bone loss and the risk of fracture in postmenopausal women"


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)


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InvisibleSenor_Doobie
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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #10602679 - 07/01/09 10:13 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

More:

http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=1667679

"Investigators collected and analyzed mortality data for >50 diseases, including 7 different cancers, from 65 counties and 130 villages in rural mainland China. Blood, urine, food samples, and detailed dietary data were collected from 50 adults in each village and analyzed for a variety of nutritional, viral, hormonal, and toxic chemical factors. In rural China, fat intake was less than half that in the United States, and fiber intake was 3 times higher. Animal protein intake was very low, only about 10% of the US intake. Mean serum total cholesterol was 127 mg/dL in rural China versus 203 mg/dL for adults aged 20-74 years in the United States. Coronary artery disease mortality was 16.7-fold greater for US men and 5.6-fold greater for US women than for their Chinese counterparts. The combined coronary artery disease mortality rates for both genders in rural China were inversely associated with the frequency of intake of green vegetables and plasma erythrocyte monounsaturated fatty acids, but positively associated with a combined index of salt intake plus urinary sodium and plasma apolipoprotein B. These apolipoproteins, in turn, are positively associated with animal protein intake and the frequency of meat intake and inversely associated with plant protein, legume, and light-colored vegetable intake. Rates of other diseases were also correlated with dietary factors. There was no evidence of a threshold beyond which further benefits did not accrue with increasing proportions of plant-bosed foods in the diet."


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)


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InvisibleSenor_Doobie
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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #10602779 - 07/01/09 10:34 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

More:

http://toxsci.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/52/2/87

"Data used for this analysis are pertinent to the issue of energy balance and body-weight control. They were obtained, in a comprehensive study of human diet, lifestyle, and disease mortality, from 65 counties (130 villages, 6500 adults) of rural China (Chen et al., 1990). After adjusting the food intake data to represent a reference male adult involved in the least physical activity and representing the same body weight, total calorie intake (40.6 kcal/kg body weight) was about 30% higher in China when compared with an average adult American male (30.6 kcal/kg bw). However, the body mass index for the Chinese male was about 25% lower (20.5 vs. 25.8 kg bw/m2). Diets in rural China were low in fat (14.5% of energy), relatively low in protein (65.8 g/day), and high in fiber (33 g/day), representing a diet unusually rich in plant- based foods (e.g., including about 90% of the total protein). It is believed that the excess energy intake among the Chinese is mostly attributed to their greater physical activity. However, some unknown but significant, and probably difficult to measure, amount could be due to increased energy expenditure associated with non-post-prandial basal metabolism. This hypothesis is based, in part, on evidence from experimental animal data from this and other laboratories showing that laboratory rats fed diets comprised of substantially reduced intakes of protein consume more energy, but gain less weight. They also exhibit increased thermogenesis, due both to enhanced metabolic body heat and to diet-driven physical activity, while sharply reducing blood cholesterol concentrations and tumor development. "


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)


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InvisibleSenor_Doobie
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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #10602801 - 07/01/09 10:39 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/106594872/abstract

"In a comprehensive human ecological study, primary liver cancer has been shown to be highly significantly associated with 1) the prevalence of persistent infection with hepatitis B virus (HBV) and 2) plasma cholesterol concentrations that are, in turn, associated with the consumption of animal based foods. In rat studies, aflatoxin-induced hepatocellular carcinoma is substantially prevented by decreasing the intake of animal based protein (casein), a hypercholesterolemic nutrient. Thus the development of primary liver cancer associated with persistent HBV infection or with aflatoxin exposure may be controlled by reduced intake of animal-based proteins. Transgenic mice transfected with an HBV gene fragment containing the viral transactivator of hepatis B virus, HBx, which induces the formation of hepatocellular carcinoma, were used to examine the ability of dietary casein to modify tumor formation. Reducing the concentration of dietary casein to 6% from the traditional level of 22% markedly inhibited (by 75%) hepatic tumor formation in these transgenic mice. Tumor development also was substantially altered by interchanging dietary casein concentration well after tumor development had begun (at 8 months), increasing by 173% from the expected yield when casein intake was increased and decreasing by 99% when casein was reduced. These findings suggest that the development of liver tumor formation among individuals persistently infected with HBV may be controlled by minimizing or eliminating the intake of animal protein-based foods."


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)


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InvisibleSenor_Doobie
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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #10602856 - 07/01/09 10:52 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)



--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)


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InvisibleChespirito
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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Asante]
    #10603423 - 07/01/09 12:53 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

According to wikipedia tofu and soybeans have each been eaten in various forms for thousands of years.  Im not sure why you are acting like its some new food product


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OfflineRiboflavin
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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Chespirito]
    #10624561 - 07/05/09 12:30 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

I also thought tofu was a fairly old product also and not something new.  I like it alongside steak on mushroom stroganoff. edit:  here's what wiki said (right or wrong)
Quote:

Tofu originated in ancient China,[1] although little else is known about the exact historic origins of tofu and its method of production. While there are many theories regarding tofu's origins, historical information is scarce enough as to relegate the status of most theories to either speculation or legend. Like the origins of cheese and butter, the exact origin of tofu production may never be known or proven.

What is known is that tofu production is an ancient technique. Tofu was widely consumed in ancient China, and techniques for its production and preparation were eventually spread to many other parts of Asia.




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Edited by Riboflavin (07/05/09 12:36 PM)


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OfflineEtherealfeeling
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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #10624608 - 07/05/09 12:37 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

I haven't noticed any negative side effects of eating tofu or drinking soy milk yet and it's been 2 years.


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OfflineMr.Al
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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Etherealfeeling]
    #10625107 - 07/05/09 02:32 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

I don't eat it because I am concerned it will fuck (no pun intended?) with my balls.

I don't eat meat unless myself or a friend killed it.

Hunting F.T.W.


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OfflineLennyk
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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Mr.Al]
    #10626768 - 07/05/09 08:19 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

I eat over a pound of meat easily in one day, and a ton of cheese!

If you really want to protect your health one need not look further than to stop eating sugar. In fact the more research that is done, the more that is shown that commonly accepted ideas are actually wrong. In fact one reason sugar is so bad is because of the fructose part of sucrose.

Fructose and not glucose causes insulin resistance, and upwards of 40% of Europeans have fructose intolerance, and eat fruit and foods that contain fructose without knowing the damage that is being done unless they are among those effected the worst.

The theory fiber is healthy and beneficial has been debunked by Australian studies that showed it did not prevent colon cancer (and other studies have shown it helps promote it do to the inflammation and nutrient deficiencies it can cause). The theory fiber was beneficial is odd, as when colon cells were damaged they exuded mucus until healed. Fiber causes mucus to be released (as it damages the wall it scrapes) and it was believed somehow that it promoted the healing process that way.
This mucus may help slides things out, but it inflames the colon, prevents nutrients from being absorbed, helps escort nutrients out quicker, and other problems with the colon.

Gluten in grains is a problem to those even without celiac disease, as it may not cause immediate death or horrible recognizable problems, but minor issues such as acne to complicated medical problems can be linked to it in many individuals sensitive to it. Grains generally are too high in fiber, too low in vital minerals, or refined and 'enriched', or made into breakfast cereals and coated with sugar.

Potatoes get a bad rap from both the low carb and high carb crowd alike, but out of the carbs on can consume, it is nutrient dense, low in fiber (although pushed as high fiber sometimes) cheap and easy to make into dishes. As starch is glucose solely it does not cause insulin resistance as a breakfast cereal would loaded with sugar, or high fructose corn syrup.

Fats and meat get a bad rap, but saturated fat does not and never will cause the diseases polyunsaturated fats do. Granted a certain amount of polyunsaturated fat is needed in omega 3/6 in unoxidized forms (fish oil supplements refrigerated and evening primose oil or borage oil). 
Cultures have eaten saturated fats without problems, and certain tropical tribes have gotten 50% of their calories from saturated fat in the form of coconut oil with no heart disease. Not until these 'heart healthy' fats come into play do we see such problems. 


If you truly want to do the simple and enjoyable changes to ones diet, simply make and eat your own real food. Don't use sugar insanely (sure in a sauce it could be needed if you can't use stevia) and limit your intake of sugar as much as you can. Don't cook or consume vegetable oil (aka soybean oil, as who would press oil from broccoli?) and don't cook in any fat that is not saturated to avoid as much oxidative damage as possible.
One other thing to help avoid the problems later found in life, get enough sunlight or vitamin D supplementation (5k iu a day supplement if you can't get sun) as a strong scientific backing is showing the first step to cancer is problems with cell communications due to vitamin D deficiency. Don't burn in the sun, but don't use sunscreen unless you have to, and when you do use coconut oil or other natural sun protectant or otherwise you just load yourself up with more chemicals.

If you want to argue any points in the post I made you may want to PM me if I do not respond as I do not go in this forum often.

To at least add a point of relevancy, soy is not a health food, vegetarianism doesn't offer benefits over meat eating (and if eating soy instead of real meat it is worse) and if you want to be vegetarian because of whatever 'morals' one may have, I don't care, just don't claim it is the cure to disease with your magical soy products.


--------------------
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InvisibleDoctor_Dick
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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Lennyk]
    #10627654 - 07/05/09 11:38 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Trolling delete by Seuss


Edited by Seuss (07/06/09 06:05 AM)


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InvisibleMisterMuscaria
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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Doctor_Dick]
    #10628312 - 07/06/09 02:50 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Worst...puppet...ever


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OfflineAndre Nickatina
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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Lennyk]
    #10629726 - 07/06/09 11:52 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Lennyk said:
I eat over a pound of meat easily in one day, and a ton of cheese!






And your health is probably fucked! Eating any sort of fat including plant fat is harmful, it thickens the blood and creates an acidic condition in your body.

This guy explains it pretty good, this is part 1 the rest are on youtube



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OfflineHakim0777
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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Andre Nickatina]
    #10630585 - 07/06/09 02:15 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

pescitarian for the win!


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InvisibleSenor_Doobie
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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Andre Nickatina]
    #10630769 - 07/06/09 02:57 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Video no work


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)


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OfflineHypercube
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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #10637067 - 07/07/09 04:54 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah well you can pretty much correlate something with everything but that's a far cry from proving anything.  I'm sure a meat-only diet isn't ideal.  I'm also sure a plant-only diet isn't ideal.  I'm not a nutritionist and I don't know what magical ratio the human body needs to optimize but the point of the matter is that balancing your diet and eating from the gamut of available sources of nutrition will predispose you to a healthy state.

I don't eat a lot of meat, maybe 2-3 times a week.  I'm not paranoid about sugars and fats and carbs I just try to not eat too much of any one thing.  EVERYTHING is unhealthy if consumed in excess.  See how far you get just eating salad, or potatoes, or tofu, or sausage.  You will get fucking sick.

I would venture to say that the reasons we get sick in our society range far beyond any one cause (animal products/environmental chemicals/stress/blah blah blah), but if I had to pick the most important one it would be that our omnivorous society has such a LONG life span that there is much more opportunity to live with any number of illnesses throughout our lives than before.


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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Hypercube]
    #10637171 - 07/07/09 05:14 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

http://professional.cancerconsultants.com/oncology_main_news.aspx?id=43747
Quote:


Vegetarians May Have Lower Cancer Risk

Researchers from the United Kingdom have reported that vegetarians in that country and those who eat fish but not meat appear to have a lower risk of several types of cancer compared with meat eaters. The results of this study were published in the June 30, 2009 issue of the British Journal of Cancer.

Studies have suggested that consumption of red or processed meat may increase the risk of several types of cancer, including cancers of the colon and rectum, esophagus, stomach, pancreas, lung, endometrium (uterus), and prostate.

To explore whether vegetarians (people who do not eat fish or meat) have a lower risk of cancer than meat eaters, researchers evaluated information from more than 61,000 British men and women; 32,403 were meat eaters, 8,562 ate fish but not meat, and 20,601 were vegetarians.

Study participants have been followed for an average of 12 years. During this time, a total of 3,350 new cancers were diagnosed.

When assessing the risk of cancer in the three dietary groups (meat eaters, fish eaters, and vegetarians), the researchers accounted for several underlying differences among the groups, including age, smoking status, alcohol use, body mass index, and physical activity.

The cancers that clearly differed in frequency among the groups were stomach cancer, ovarian cancer, bladder cancer, and hematologic cancers (non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma, multiple myeloma, and leukemia).

    * Compared with meat eaters, vegetarians had a 64% reduced risk of stomach cancer, a 53% reduced risk of bladder cancer, and a 45% reduced risk of hematologic cancers. Vegetarians did, however, have an increased risk of cervical cancer (risk was roughly twice as high as in meat eaters).
    * Fish eaters had a 63% reduced risk of ovarian cancer and a 43% reduced risk of prostate cancer.
    * The risk of all cancers combined was 18% lower in fish eaters and 12% lower in vegetarians.

Comments: These results confirm other studies showing that a high meat died is associated with an increased incidence of several cancers. 

Reference: Key TJ, Appleby PN, Spencer EA et al. Cancer incidence in British vegetarians. British Journal of Cancer. 2009;101:192-197.




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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Hypercube]
    #10640745 - 07/08/09 09:11 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Hypercube said:
I'm also sure a plant-only diet isn't ideal.




And you would be 100% wrong and the magical ratio is 80% carbs, 10% protein, 10% fats :smile:


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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Andre Nickatina]
    #10642107 - 07/08/09 02:12 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Your thoughts and attitudes are ignorant and not really worth replying to but I'm going to do it anyway.

Above I have documented eight studies that show various health problems caused by poor diet.  Your response to that effort is "you can correlate anything to anything" which is absurd.

However, you are correct in saying that a single correlation does not equal proof.  Rest assured, there are THOUSANDS of studies that either a) show a positive benefit to eating a plant-based, whole food diet or b) show a negative effect of an animal based diet.  That is right, thousands. 

Feel free to check the research for yourself.  If 8 studies are not enough to show you the flaw of your belief system, there are many many more available.

Quote:

I would venture to say that the reasons we get sick in our society range far beyond any one cause (animal products/environmental chemicals/stress/blah blah blah), but if I had to pick the most important one it would be that our omnivorous society has such a LONG life span that there is much more opportunity to live with any number of illnesses throughout our lives than before.




Most of the studies that I have read compare people of the same age.  It is not a longer life span that accounts for diseases of affluence.  It is much more likely a result of diet.

Not all of these studies are mere correlations.  A lot of them involve actual experiments with control and variable groups and have been going on for decades. 

The flippant attitude and lazy thinking made evident in the first paragraph of your last post make it clear that you did not click one single link I listed and probably did not read more than one sentence from the entire group of 8 studies I have posted as evidence to the claims I have made.  If you have any interest in educating yourself about diet, I advise that you watch the video series posted so graciously by Andre Nickatina and then you might want to check out "The China Study" by T Colin Campbell.

If you are interested in arguing your point further, I advise you to come up with at least one study corroborative to your ignorant certainties.  In fact I challenge you to find a single study that shows improved health benefits from an omnivorous diet over a vegan one.


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Edited by Senor_Doobie (07/08/09 02:13 PM)


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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Lennyk]
    #10642181 - 07/08/09 02:27 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

To at least add a point of relevancy, soy is not a health food, vegetarianism doesn't offer benefits over meat eating (and if eating soy instead of real meat it is worse) and if you want to be vegetarian because of whatever 'morals' one may have, I don't care, just don't claim it is the cure to disease with your magical soy products.




You make some uncorroborated claims there. 

1.  Vegetarianism offers no benefits over meat eating.

You make this claim after 8 studies were posted showing evidence to the contrary and offer no references of your own.

2.  ...don't claim (vegetarianism)...is the cure to disease with your magical soy products.

Nobody has made any such claim.  Soy is a nutrient-rich food, period.  Nobody has claimed it cures anything.  On the contrary, the claim being made is that meat and meat byproducts are the principle cause of most western diseases and that eliminating these factors from one's diet drastically reduces the risk for those diseases. 

That is, not eating meat is healthier than eating meat.


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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Andre Nickatina]
    #10643082 - 07/08/09 05:08 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

> Eating any sort of fat including plant fat is harmful

Incorrect.  Both polyunsaturated and monounsaturated are essential to good health.  They provide essential fatty acids.  They help digest and transport fat soluble vitamins (A, D, E and K) throughout the body.  They are good for your heart, metabolism and immune system.  They are used by the body for structural, hormonal and electrical functions.  The list goes on.  Avoiding all fat intake is a good way to end up malnourished.


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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Andre Nickatina]
    #10643273 - 07/08/09 05:51 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

I haven't seen any physically fit vegans....

I like to play with kettlebells, do pistols, chinups, one-handed pushups et cetera...

Do you know of any physically fit vegans?

The ones I've seen are frighteningly skinny.


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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Mr.Al]
    #10643989 - 07/08/09 08:20 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)



--------------------
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“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Seuss]
    #10644208 - 07/08/09 08:59 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> Eating any sort of fat including plant fat is harmful

Incorrect.  Both polyunsaturated and monounsaturated are essential to good health.  They provide essential fatty acids.  They help digest and transport fat soluble vitamins (A, D, E and K) throughout the body.  They are good for your heart, metabolism and immune system.  They are used by the body for structural, hormonal and electrical functions.  The list goes on.  Avoiding all fat intake is a good way to end up malnourished.




If you read my post under that you would see the magical ratio is 80% carb 10% fats 10% protien. My statement above should be "eating any sort of cooked animal fat is unhealthy and over eating any type of fat(including plant) is unhealthy". You need fats but not alot, half of an avocado alone will give you the required fat intake for a day to live optimally


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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Mr.Al]
    #10644227 - 07/08/09 09:02 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Mr.Al said:
I haven't seen any physically fit vegans....

I like to play with kettlebells, do pistols, chinups, one-handed pushups et cetera...

Do you know of any physically fit vegans?

The ones I've seen are frighteningly skinny.




the ones you see where? google vegan athlete and you'll get tons and tons of results. Its been proven that athletes run best on high carb diets, you cant get any higher then a diet of mainly sweet fruit


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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Andre Nickatina]
    #10654067 - 07/10/09 05:14 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

I heard there is a specific B vitamin missing in a vegan diet.  Is there any food that takes care of that?  Quinoa perhaps?

Also, would eating too much fruit cause blood sugar and therefore insulin to go haywire?

I do have to say that Alicia Silverstone is fucking smoking!


Edited by Mr.Al (07/10/09 05:15 PM)


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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Mr.Al]
    #10655820 - 07/11/09 12:51 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

There are plenty of vegan foods high in B vitamins..
off the top of my head.. bananas, lentils, sweet potatoes, avocado.. lots of nuts..


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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Mr.Al]
    #10656679 - 07/11/09 06:59 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Mr.Al said:
I heard there is a specific B vitamin missing in a vegan diet.  Is there any food that takes care of that?  Quinoa perhaps?

Also, would eating too much fruit cause blood sugar and therefore insulin to go haywire?





Your thinking of b12, it used to be believed you had to supplement this if your vegan but thats bullshit. http://www.roylretreat.com/articles/b12.html. ;

I eat around 13-15 pounds of fruit a day, 10 pounds of watermelon, 3 pounds of apples and 2 pounds of whatever else i want (usually oranges). I've never felt better in my life, mentally and physically.


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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Mr.Al]
    #10656717 - 07/11/09 07:17 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

It is possible for vegans to have a diminished level of vitamin B12.  This is because of soil in the US made lifeless through the use of pesticides.  Vitamin B12 is produced by a group of bacterium living in the intestines of animals that is actually best found through the consumption of shellfish and animal liver. 

In nature, B12 producing bacterium live in soil and on plants but because of the rampant use of pesticides and the heavy washing done to produce, plants are no longer a reliable source for the vitamin.

However, our bodies have a 2-3 year reserve of vitamin B12.  After two or so years of not eating meat it is strongly recommended that you get your blood tested for vitamin B12 deficiency.  If you are found to be deficient, you should take a supplement daily.


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“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Andre Nickatina]
    #10656768 - 07/11/09 07:38 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

That link doesn't work.


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“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Andre Nickatina]
    #10656786 - 07/11/09 07:45 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

How about your teeth, is there any problem eating large amounts of fruit because of the high sugar content?

If you haven't already you should consider buying some land and starting a food forest.....


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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Andre Nickatina]
    #10657726 - 07/11/09 12:02 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

> I eat around 13-15 pounds of fruit a day,

Egads!  You are a diabetic waiting to happen.  That much fructose is very hard your body.  Seriously, you need to cut way down on your sugar intake.


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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Seuss]
    #10662554 - 07/12/09 11:10 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> I eat around 13-15 pounds of fruit a day,

Egads!  You are a diabetic waiting to happen.  That much fructose is very hard your body.  Seriously, you need to cut way down on your sugar intake.





Maybe right after an intense workout, in order to spike insulin???


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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Mr.Al]
    #10662851 - 07/12/09 12:15 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

It seems like a lifestyle consisting of that much fruit would involve sitting on a toilet all day with a basket of fruit.

As far as fitness is concerned, Mr. Al, if you are seriously interesed, you might want to check out Brendan Brazier's book.  "Thrive: The Vegan Nutrition Guide for Sports and Life"

Used copies are available at Amazon for under ten bucks.

I own a copy.  Its full of delicious and fairly simple recipes.  It goes into pretty deep discussion of ingredients and the nutrients obtained from them as well as a 12-week meal plan, which I have not tried.  I can vouch for the recipes though, and all of the food is extremely nutrient dense and very tasty.


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“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)


Edited by Senor_Doobie (07/12/09 12:19 PM)


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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Andre Nickatina]
    #10663439 - 07/12/09 02:20 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Andre Nickatina said:
Quote:

Mr.Al said:
I heard there is a specific B vitamin missing in a vegan diet.  Is there any food that takes care of that?  Quinoa perhaps?

Also, would eating too much fruit cause blood sugar and therefore insulin to go haywire?





Your thinking of b12, it used to be believed you had to supplement this if your vegan but thats bullshit. http://www.roylretreat.com/articles/b12.html. ;

I eat around 13-15 pounds of fruit a day, 10 pounds of watermelon, 3 pounds of apples and 2 pounds of whatever else i want (usually oranges). I've never felt better in my life, mentally and physically.






Fructose is possibly the worst sugar, as it not glucose causes insulin resistance. Never in history did man eat so much fruit as they do today, as it is available whenever one wants it. The 80/10/10 ratio from that one guy who says eat a bunch of bananas is insane, carbs are the one group one does not need to eat to be perfectly healthy. Any carbs needed are created within the body and the body begins to run on ketones (the preferred source of fuel for many parts of the body despite the glucose pushers) . Ketosis is only dangerous in cases with diabetic ketosis where ketone levels are far higher than any ketogenic diet will ever allow.

Quote:

Mr.Al said:
Quote:

Seuss said:
> I eat around 13-15 pounds of fruit a day,

Egads!  You are a diabetic waiting to happen.  That much fructose is very hard your body.  Seriously, you need to cut way down on your sugar intake.





Maybe right after an intense workout, in order to spike insulin???




Fruit doesn't spike insulin really (unless a ton is eaten), but it does cause insulin resistance.

Insulin spike after a workout is bad science as I see it, as many new studies see it as not needed, frankly I don't do it, but then again I rarely eat carbs at all.


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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Lennyk]
    #10666443 - 07/12/09 11:17 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

If carbohydrates do not optimize health, then why are people who eat a diet based on carbohydrates so much healthier than people who eat meat?


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The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #10666500 - 07/12/09 11:31 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

http://www.ajph.org/cgi/content/abstract/75/5/507

We propose the hypothesis that a vegetarian diet reduces the risk of developing diabetes. Findings that have generated this hypothesis are from a population of 25,698 adult White Seventh-day Adventists identified in 1960. During 21 years of follow-up, the risk of diabetes as an underlying cause of death in Adventists was approximately one-half the risk for all US Whites. Within the male Adventist population, vegetarians had a substantially lower risk than non-vegetarians of diabetes as an underlying or contributing cause of death. Within both the male and female Adventist populations, the prevalence of self-reported diabetes also was lower in vegetarians than in non-vegetarians. The associations observed between diabetes and meat consumption were apparently not due to confounding by over- or under-weight, other selected dietary factors, or physical activity. All of the associations between meat consumption and diabetes were stronger in males than in females.
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/78/1/31?ijkey=21a89ed2132b0f87547ce2a3be3d604b1729e49b

Objective: The objective was to compare the effects of 2 weight-loss diets differing in protein-to-carbohydrate ratio on body composition, glucose and lipid metabolism, and markers of bone turnover.

Design: A parallel design included either a high-protein diet of meat, poultry, and dairy foods (HP diet: 27% of energy as protein, 44% as carbohydrate, and 29% as fat) or a standard-protein diet low in those foods (SP diet: 16% of energy as protein, 57% as carbohydrate, and 27% as fat) during 12 wk of energy restriction (6–6.3 MJ/d) and 4 wk of energy balance ({approx}8.2 MJ/d). Fifty-seven overweight volunteers with fasting insulin concentrations > 12 mU/L completed the study.

Results: Weight loss (7.9 ± 0.5 kg) and total fat loss (6.9 ± 0.4 kg) did not differ between diet groups. In women, total lean mass was significantly (P = 0.02) better preserved with the HP diet (-0.1 ± 0.3 kg) than with the SP diet (-1.5 ± 0.3 kg). Those fed the HP diet had significantly (P < 0.03) less glycemic response at weeks 0 and 16 than did those fed the SP diet. After weight loss, the glycemic response decreased significantly (P < 0.05) more in the HP diet group. The reduction in serum triacylglycerol concentrations was significantly (P < 0.05) greater in the HP diet group (23%) than in the SP diet group (10%). Markers of bone turnover, calcium excretion, and systolic blood pressure were unchanged.


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“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)


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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #10666522 - 07/12/09 11:36 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S0002934305002792



Purpose

This study investigated the effect of a low-fat, plant-based diet on body weight, metabolism, and insulin sensitivity, while controlling for exercise in free-living individuals.
Subjects and methods

In an outpatient setting, 64 overweight, postmenopausal women were randomly assigned to a low-fat, vegan diet or a control diet based on National Cholesterol Education Program guidelines, without energy intake limits, and were asked to maintain exercise unchanged. Dietary intake, body weight and composition, resting metabolic
rate, thermic effect of food, and insulin sensitivity were measured at baseline and 14 weeks.
Results

Mean ± standard deviation intervention-group body weight decreased 5.8 ± 3.2 kg, compared with 3.8 ± 2.8 kg in the control group (P = .012). In a regression model of predictors of weight change, including diet group and changes in energy intake, thermic effect of food, resting metabolic rate, and reported energy expenditure, significant effects were found for diet group (P < .05), thermic effect of food (P < .05), and resting metabolic rate (P < .001). An index of insulin sensitivity increased from 4.6 ± 2.9 to 5.7 ± 3.9 (P = .017) in the intervention group, but the difference between groups was not significant (P = .17).
Conclusion

Adoption of a low-fat, vegan diet was associated with significant weight loss in overweight postmenopausal women, despite the absence of prescribed limits on portion size or energy intake.


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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Lennyk]
    #10667718 - 07/13/09 07:49 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:


Fructose is possibly the worst sugar, as it not glucose causes insulin resistance. Never in history did man eat so much fruit as they do today, as it is available whenever one wants it. The 80/10/10 ratio from that one guy who says eat a bunch of bananas is insane, carbs are the one group one does not need to eat to be perfectly healthy. Any carbs needed are created within the body and the body begins to run on ketones (the preferred source of fuel for many parts of the body despite the glucose pushers) . Ketosis is only dangerous in cases with diabetic ketosis where ketone levels are far higher than any ketogenic diet will ever allow.





Atleast cite some sort of fact if your gonna claim "fructose is possibly the worst sugar", its just not true. The cause of diabetes is a high fat diet! along with processed sugar. Show me one case of someone getting diabetes from a high fruit diet, please just one. Many never ate fruit in history as much as they did today?? is this a joke? fruit trees used to grow wild everywhere, go to a non developed country in the tropical zone and you'll find wild fruit trees everywhere. Its clear by our natural craving for sugar that we are naturally frugivores.

The key to good dental hygiene is eating atleast one meal of greens a day, don't eat unripe fruit and stay away from dried fruit if you can. Along with these things i try to brush my teeth atleast once or twice a day with NO toothpaste


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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Asante]
    #10668311 - 07/13/09 10:39 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Wiccan_Seeker said:
I agree, heavy processing might be strongly put.

Still, there is no such thing as traditional soy eating. In Asia soy was grown because it fixates nitrogen to grow foodcrops, not to be eaten. Its only being eaten since the 1920s. Its a made-up industrial food.

Raw soy is toxic. It needs processing to be rendered edible. It gives rats pancreatic cancer unless its treated, for one.

89% of all soy grown in the US is genetically modified to allow heavy use of pesticides without the soy dying. Bon appetit :S




>>"no such thing as traditional soy eating"

bullshit...soy has been used as food product in china for atleast 5000 years. the earliest dating of the mention of 'soy milk' as food dates to scripts from 82 ad. which means processed soy products date nearly 2000 years. tofu dates to the second century ad.

>> "raw soy is toxic"

sort of...all you need to do to consume unprocessed soy beans is boil or steam them. boiled baby soy beans are a common appetizer in japan, china, and korea.

>> "it gives rats pancreatic cancer unless its treated"

every study i've read claiming this also notes that the soy consumption vs body weight undertaken by the rats represents soy consumtion far greater than that of people even in the most soy heavy diets.

now i'm not arguing in favor of veganism. personally i think you should all eat a fat bacon cheeseburger with bluecheese on top and get over your (likely fake to get attention) "poor animals" or "sustainable living" shtick.  nonetheless i have to think that, under normal consumption, soy paranoia is overblown.


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Re: Go Vegan [Re: eastuvdariver]
    #10668896 - 07/13/09 12:38 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

But of course you offer no opinion on the massive body of research showing meat to be toxic.


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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #10673842 - 07/14/09 07:41 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Reason why soy is bad.... Xenoestrogen! Its why we have so many "metrosexuals" now a days


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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Andre Nickatina]
    #10681795 - 07/15/09 12:47 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)



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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Andre Nickatina]
    #10684330 - 07/15/09 08:20 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

> Show me one case of someone getting diabetes from a high fruit diet, please just one.

Several recent studies are finding that fructose leads to diabetes at an alarming rate.  Lennyk beat me to references.  Google is your friend.  Look for publications in the last four to six months.

> go to a non developed country in the tropical zone and you'll find wild fruit trees everywhere

And look at the diabetes rates in these countries.  I happen to live in one, and the rates are much higher than elsewhere in the world.  Too many mangoes...

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/37/5/740
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/72/5/1128
http://www.nutritionreporter.com/fructose_dangers.html
http://www.reuters.com/article/healthNews/idUSTRE52254920090303


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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Seuss]
    #10685001 - 07/15/09 10:01 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Several recent studies are finding that fructose leads to diabetes at an alarming rate.  Lennyk beat me to references.  Google is your friend.  Look for publications in the last four to six months.




not one of these studies used fruit they used fructose, probably high fructose corn syrup or some lame bullshit. Again show me one study where they used fruit, also remember most these studies are done on mice not actual human beings


Quote:

And look at the diabetes rates in these countries.  I happen to live in one, and the rates are much higher than elsewhere in the world.  Too many mangoes...




No more like too  many ignorant people that eat cooked fats, most the fruit rots in these countries because people are too busy cooking meat...

Just read thru most those studies, seems like every single one has to do with refined fructose. you can't possible compared refined fructose to fruits... I mean get serious


Edited by Andre Nickatina (07/15/09 10:06 PM)


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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Seuss]
    #10685389 - 07/15/09 11:15 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

i eat about 20 mangoes a week. mangoes are dank.


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[quote]KristiMidocean said:
Good now thats clear.WHO FUCKING CARES. If I am fat u all keep pointing it out like its suppose to be a secret.LIke u really have nothing better to do then make fat jokes. If o know its like I do I know yall can come up with NEW AND BETTER SHIT . This shit is old and boring . I left in the first place cause this shit got boring not because of the fat jokes . Fat jokes dont bother me but seriously its old[/quote]


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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Psychoslut]
    #10688350 - 07/16/09 02:07 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Fructose is an unfriendly component it many european diets, as I believe I mentioned before, 40% at least has malabsorption problems with it. Fructose is fructose anyway, and is digested the same way, filling up the liver and spilling over into body fat all the while making one more insulin resistant.

If you want to eat all the fruit you want fine with me, one can not usually convince someone holding on to an opinion that strongly, I just hope other people begin to realize that fructose is not this miracle sugar.


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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Lennyk]
    #10688577 - 07/16/09 03:00 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Lennyk said:
I just hope other people begin to realize that fructose is not this miracle sugar.




Refined sugar of any form is gonna be bad, again comparing refined fructose(especially high fructose corn syrup) to whole fresh ripe fruits is ridiculous.


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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Andre Nickatina]
    #10688713 - 07/16/09 03:32 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Sure is.  It is not like fructose is the only ingredient in fruit.  There is likely a proportioned amount of water and enzymes that allow the fructose to be dealt with.  This is the whole point to eating whole foods.

To the person making the diabetes claims against fruit...have you seen the numbers of diabetics among meat eaters compared to diabetics who eat vegan diets?  There is really no comparison.


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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #10701425 - 07/18/09 09:35 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Senor_Doobie said:
Sure is.  It is not like fructose is the only ingredient in fruit.  There is likely a proportioned amount of water and enzymes that allow the fructose to be dealt with.  This is the whole point to eating whole foods.

To the person making the diabetes claims against fruit...have you seen the numbers of diabetics among meat eaters compared to diabetics who eat vegan diets?  There is really no comparison.





I haven't run the numbers, but meat eater's as a group may eat meat, but they eat much more. Just because someone eats meat does not mean they do not shove down pop tarts and mountain dew.

Vegans in the long term generally will see a greater incidence of digestive problems, especially within the intestines.

Fruit  may not be the worst thing to put into the body, but certainly is far from the best as even many supporters of fruit will tell you that one can usually get much better nutrition out of vegetables.


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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Lennyk]
    #10701736 - 07/18/09 10:49 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Lennyk said:
Quote:

Senor_Doobie said:
Sure is.  It is not like fructose is the only ingredient in fruit.  There is likely a proportioned amount of water and enzymes that allow the fructose to be dealt with.  This is the whole point to eating whole foods.

To the person making the diabetes claims against fruit...have you seen the numbers of diabetics among meat eaters compared to diabetics who eat vegan diets?  There is really no comparison.





I haven't run the numbers, but meat eater's as a group may eat meat, but they eat much more. Just because someone eats meat does not mean they do not shove down pop tarts and mountain dew.

Vegans in the long term generally will see a greater incidence of digestive problems, especially within the intestines.

Fruit  may not be the worst thing to put into the body, but certainly is far from the best as even many supporters of fruit will tell you that one can usually get much better nutrition out of vegetables.




I disagree with this somewhat. It's very clear to me that the world's average human (mostly excluding people like you and I) IS chowing down on pop tarts and take away haha.

I'm not seeing McDonalds, KFC, Pizza Hut or any other major fast food conglomerate go out of business, so I think it's pretty safe to assume meat/junk food eaters are alive and well.

BUT this isn't to say there aren't people living perfectly balanced meat eating diet.

I'm 21 and have been Vegan for 4 and a half years and although, some may not consider that 'long term Veganism', I can report NO negative effects on my body. This has been proven to me in several pathology tests performed in years and one as recent as this week. I eat a healthy portion of both fruit, vegetables, tofu, tempeh, soy milk, grains, carbs etc. If anything I found I'm healthier and leaner but certainly not skeletal!

I would however, encourage people to watch their sugar intake. Fruit is important. But sugar is still sugar. And all food groups should be taken in moderation.


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Re: Go Vegan [Re: ladydeath]
    #10701863 - 07/18/09 11:23 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

A well-rounded diet is important for people to live optimally.  If it is possible to get every essential nutrient from fruit, it would take a lot of study to figure out how I would think, as it would with any other food source viewed in isolation.

So, yes, absolutely, eat a various Vegan diet full of nutrient-rich food to ensure maximum health. 

The only misconception that I am trying to argue, and it is extremely pervasive, is the idea that it is possible to eat a healthy diet that includes meat.

The science is in.  Meat is unhealthy.  If you want to lower your risk for heart disease, diabetes, cancer, arthritis, and neurological disorders, the best way to do that is to abandon meat as a food source or limit it to a miniscule amount.

Of course McDonald's and Frito-Lay are especially unhealthy foods.  But this does little to overturn research showing casein to be hugely linked to cancer in rats and mice.

Still, you are right.  I have to concede the possibility that some meat is not harmful.  But it seems as though the human body just doesn't know how to process it.  It automatically stores it as fat.  Calorie in, fat out, and on and on through te intestinal tract.

Not so with any other food source.  The body burns the calories it needs and sends the rest out the ass.  The system runs smoother.  you find yourself no longer hot in 85-90 degree weather.  Because calories are being burned directly from the food in your gut in order to mantain body temperature. 

You have more energy because the body is not struggling to deal with a food source it doesn't know how to handle properly. 

Your cholesterol goes down.  Plant matter contains zero cholesterol.  Blood cholesterol is not only linked to heart disease but diabetes and cancer as well.

Its a pretty common sense argument.  If you try it, I guarentee you will see benefits within weeks.  Combine with exercise and you will be amazed at how the weight just flies off and you feel so much better.


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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #10702020 - 07/19/09 12:10 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

I am completely on your side Senior Doobie!

This is how I rationalise it. For example:

Native tribesman rely on hunter gather methods in order to provide nutritious meals for their family. And I'd say they'd live off plant, rice and fish. They live on the most basic of foods and include meat in their diet and yet, they have sustained the ages!

In saying that, if I ever went to South America on an Amazonian Aya journey, I would eat fish. Because they are high in nutrients, fatty acids and omega 3 blah blah blah. I also believe catching, preparing and cooking your own fish can be a good experience, in terms of appreciating nature and taking ONLY what you need. And that way you know the produce is not caught on some mass fishing boat in a toxic sea with waste dumped from god knows where.

Eating meat from large scale supermarkets are DESTINED to come from a bad place. Disease, cramped chickens in battery cages. Underfed cows with rotting limbs etc. I won't to go into detail. We should all be well educated on the topic by now.

Saying all that, your diet is your own. I am vegan because I feel it is the right path for me. I have no problem with the concept of people occasionally eating meat or fish, just know your sources! And watch your cholesterol :smile:


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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Lennyk]
    #10702776 - 07/19/09 07:28 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Lennyk said:

Fruit  may not be the worst thing to put into the body, but certainly is far from the best as even many supporters of fruit will tell you that one can usually get much better nutrition out of vegetables.




Vegetables may be more dense nutrition wise but you can get most if not all of the nutrients you need from fruit. Ontop of that it is pretty much impossible to eat 2000+ calories worth of greens, unless you like to chew 24/7, fruit on the other hand is much more calorie packed and provides you with the essential energy your body needs (carbs). What else would you suggest is better then fruits besides greens??????


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Re: Go Vegan [Re: ladydeath]
    #10702788 - 07/19/09 07:34 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

ladydeath said:


I would however, encourage people to watch their sugar intake. Fruit is important. But sugar is still sugar. And all food groups should be taken in moderation.




Most nutritionist recommend a diet(based on calories) of about 60-70% carbs, 20-30% fats and 10-20% protein. Where else would you get your carbs if you don't eat mass amounts of sweet fruit???? Starches you can't even digest properly?? No need to be scared of fruits, seriously the fear mongering needs to stop.


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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Andre Nickatina]
    #10702833 - 07/19/09 08:00 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Haha oh this is not 'fear mongering', I love sugar just as much as everybody else, maybe a little more :P Although I have to remember that if I've gotten my sugar intake from a few peaches and soy yoghurt in the morning, and maybe a few hours later I felt hungry again. Instead of having a banana, apple, orange, which will increase my sugar intake further. Maybe I should have a serve of vegetables instead? Perhaps something high in starch, like potato sweet potato, pumpkin etc. Way more filling, and a different food group! I really think variation/moderation of everything is key.

For example, I wouldn't encourage people to OVERINDULGE in grapes. Apart from the fact you may suffer a lot of wind, you would also have a very high sugar intake. ALAS, if the choice is a bucket of grapes vs. 10 blocks of chocolate. Then it's obvious which the better choice is.

It's just common sense!

Don't get me wrong, I'm pro fruit :smile:


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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Andre Nickatina]
    #10702879 - 07/19/09 08:23 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

I find the best way to beat hunger is to eat some whole grain in the morning with a piece of fruit.  I choose steel-cut oatmeal and a banana.  I snack on nuts and dried fruit but not a lot.  When its time for lunch I have a salad with lots of leafy green vegetables.  Unless I'm being really active, I don't need a third meal.

Hunger is a sign of your body needing something.  The best way to beat it is to eat a variety of foods so that the needs of the body are met.  Its impossible to get certain nutrients from certain foods no matter how much of it you eat.  This is why you may never feel satisfied.


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Re: Go Vegan [Re: ladydeath]
    #10703021 - 07/19/09 09:09 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

ladydeath said:
Although I have to remember that if I've gotten my sugar intake from a few peaches and soy yoghurt in the morning, and maybe a few hours later I felt hungry again. Instead of having a banana, apple, orange, which will increase my sugar intake further.




So please tell me whats wrong with sugar? Why would you eat starch(which is just complex sugar molecules) over sugar?? You def need greens but also you need alot of carbohydrates(sugar). I seriously don't get the problem with a high fruit intake, just because fruits happen to taste awesome and be super sweet you think there bad?? Fruits are not refined sugar people! You would be alot better off if you replaced that soy poison and "starch" with simple sugars from whole organic fruits


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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Andre Nickatina]
    #10703261 - 07/19/09 10:29 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

The fact that you eat 15 pounds of anything a day should tell you you're doing something wrong.

Scientists all point to complex carbohydrates, like those found in leafy green vegetables and whole grains to be more beneficial than simple sugars like those found in fruit.  The reason is because the carbohydrates are more complex and take longer to convert into usable sugar and this slows your appetite and allows a more steady supply of fuel as opposed to sugars which are burned more quickly.


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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #10708057 - 07/20/09 06:45 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Senor_Doobie said:
The fact that you eat 15 pounds of anything a day should tell you you're doing something wrong.




What else would you suggest i do to get my daily calorie intake?? The fact you don't eat 15 pounds a day of fruit should tell you your doing something wrong imo, its impossible to to get sufficient calories a day unless you eat massive quanitys of whole foods, binge out on fats or eat processed bullshit

Quote:

Senor_Doobie said:
Scientists all point to complex carbohydrates, like those found in leafy green vegetables and whole grains to be more beneficial than simple sugars like those found in fruit.  The reason is because the carbohydrates are more complex and take longer to convert into usable sugar and this slows your appetite and allows a more steady supply of fuel as opposed to sugars which are burned more quickly.





Scientists are fucktards who do bullshit studys that mean nothing to me in labs usually on mice. Ontop of this it should be obvious to you that anything that takes longer to digest is worse for you, the longer somthing takes to digest the more it taxes your body. When i was eating bread, rice etc. i was always tired and never had energy cus my body was using all its energy to digest food, now i eat acouple pounds of fruit and i feel like superman. Wheat is a manmade bullshit food, along with potatos, corn and soy. The fact anyone suggest to eat any of these products over fruits simply amazes me.


Another amazing thing about being primarily fruitarian, I DONT DRINK WATER!!!. Yes thats right i no longer have to drink bullshit water, i get the cleanest, purest water possible via fruits!!!! Gone are the days of mineral striped tapwater and plastic jugs :smile:


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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Andre Nickatina]
    #10708246 - 07/20/09 08:13 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Well, i gotta say I'm a little uncomfortable with your dismissal of science as a bunch of fucktards doing bullshit studies.  All that we know about nutrition comes from science.  It is the most reliable source we have.

However, I do agree that experimentation on the self and a logical approach is the way to go.  I also see your point about processing.  I do not think that man is capable of supplying nutrition as much as nature is.  It is still possible though that there is some room for a marriage between the two to come up with pretty good results.

You make some claims.  You say slow digestibility is related to unhealthy food.  I am not aware of this and am unwilling to accept it without some corroboration.  You say that because something is in your digestive tract longer it is harder for the body to digest it. 

This is simply untrue.  The body will get the nutrients from the food as it is needed.  It does not try to get every last nutrient out of the food.  It simply takes what it needs and sends the rest out the ass.

Simple sugars are digested quickly.  The processes involved in transforming them into energy are simpler and harder to control.  This is why you get rushes of energy from simpler sugars. 

Not the case with vegetables and more complex sugars. 

As far as your daily caloric intake, why is it at that point that you trust somebody else, the government of all people, to tell you what you need.  Remember the daily recommendations are based on the standard american diet which is not vegetarian. 

I would say, eat when you are hungry or tired.  If you're always hungry, there's a good chance you aren't getting an important nutrient.


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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Andre Nickatina]
    #10745361 - 07/26/09 08:54 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Wheat is a manmade bullshit food, along with potatos, corn and soy. The fact anyone suggest to eat any of these products over fruits simply amazes me.


Another amazing thing about being primarily fruitarian, I DONT DRINK WATER!!!. Yes thats right i no longer have to drink bullshit water, i get the cleanest, purest water possible via fruits!!!! Gone are the days of mineral striped tapwater and plastic jugs




I LOL'd.


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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Andre Nickatina]
    #10760552 - 07/29/09 08:32 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Senor_Doobie said:


The science is in.  Meat is unhealthy.  If you want to lower your risk for heart disease, diabetes, cancer, arthritis, and neurological disorders, the best way to do that is to abandon meat as a food source or limit it to a miniscule amount.





That must explain why the inuits and native americans eating almost nothing but meat and fat had so much heart disease :rolleyes:
Quote:

Still, you are right.  I have to concede the possibility that some meat is not harmful.  But it seems as though the human body just doesn't know how to process it.  It automatically stores it as fat.  Calorie in, fat out, and on and on through te intestinal tract.




That is incorrect on so many levels! The body digests meat upwards of 97 or more % and absorbs it much better than plant matter where the nutrients are bound in. The iron absorbed more meat is also much safer. Meat does not have fiber, an element still mistaken as needed, but all it does is sweep nutrients away. With a diet high enough in fat digestion is just as easy, but more infrequent because of the high utilization of food.
Fat does not equal fat, especially if they become ketones to yield 4.5 calories of energy. Excess carbohydrates will much easier plump you up as you feel like you need to eat more. 

Quote:

Not so with any other food source.  The body burns the calories it needs and sends the rest out the ass.  The system runs smoother.  you find yourself no longer hot in 85-90 degree weather.  Because calories are being burned directly from the food in your gut in order to mantain body temperature.


 

I eat a pound of beef before doing cardio interval training in hot humid weather and it made no difference in being hot than a couple of years ago when I tried vegetarianism. Only difference is my times are better not being on a ketogenic diet.

Quote:

You have more energy because the body is not struggling to deal with a food source it doesn't know how to handle properly.


 

The body has been with meat longer than it has grains, or this stupid high sugar fruit hybrids.

Quote:

Your cholesterol goes down.  Plant matter contains zero cholesterol.  Blood cholesterol is not only linked to heart disease but diabetes and cancer as well.




The amount of cholesterol you eat has little to do with the amount in the blood. The liver will make it if you do not consume it. It is not an evil substance, you will die without it. Higher cholesterol is associated with higher cognitive function in elder people. Plants may not contain cholesterol, but it can sure damage your system as cholesterol shows up to act like a bandaid in the body when damage is present.

Quote:

Andre Nickatina said:
Quote:

Lennyk said:

Fruit  may not be the worst thing to put into the body, but certainly is far from the best as even many supporters of fruit will tell you that one can usually get much better nutrition out of vegetables.




Vegetables may be more dense nutrition wise but you can get most if not all of the nutrients you need from fruit. Ontop of that it is pretty much impossible to eat 2000+ calories worth of greens, unless you like to chew 24/7, fruit on the other hand is much more calorie packed and provides you with the essential energy your body needs (carbs). What else would you suggest is better then fruits besides greens??????




Exactly, which should tell you something about what you should eat. Your body does not need carbohydrates to be eaten, any basic biology book will tell you that. Any carbohydrates the body needs can be made within the body. Most systems in the body will run on ketones and those that do run better. While getting into ketogenic diets, the transition can be a bit rough, but the brain runs better on ketones. It still needs some glucose,  but the amount is minimal so one need not intact any if they actually eat real food with protein instead of just simple carbohydrates.
Meat overall is still better than vegetation as the vitamins and minerals are easily absorbed and in many ways one step ahead of the plant kingdom. Vitamin C is higher in broccoli than oranges, but meat has it beat as the conversion need not be made in rare meat as the thing vitamin c converts into before being used is already present in the meat.
Quote:

Andre Nickatina said:
Quote:

ladydeath said:


I would however, encourage people to watch their sugar intake. Fruit is important. But sugar is still sugar. And all food groups should be taken in moderation.




Most nutritionist recommend a diet(based on calories) of about 60-70% carbs, 20-30% fats and 10-20% protein. Where else would you get your carbs if you don't eat mass amounts of sweet fruit???? Starches you can't even digest properly?? No need to be scared of fruits, seriously the fear mongering needs to stop.





Nutritionists have been pounding the low fat false information since it was put forth, it doesn't make it correct. People only know what they learn, if taught incorrectly they spread that information. If they were correct on eating that many carbohydrates, starches would have to be the way. Starches digest better than fruit when cooked and prepared correctly (potatoes being possibly the best starch if one were to have to pick one). Starch is made of glucose, which a lone I have said does not cause insulin resistance, however fructose does.

Your 'sacred fruit' isn't even how it used to be. All the modern fruit is sweet to appeal to sugar craving junkies, but REAL fruit is bitter and contains a miniscule amount of sugar.

Quote:

Senor_Doobie said:
The fact that you eat 15 pounds of anything a day should tell you you're doing something wrong.

Scientists all point to complex carbohydrates, like those found in leafy green vegetables and whole grains to be more beneficial than simple sugars like those found in fruit.  The reason is because the carbohydrates are more complex and take longer to convert into usable sugar and this slows your appetite and allows a more steady supply of fuel as opposed to sugars which are burned more quickly.




Complex carbs outside of certain vegetables are only slow when one compares a train to a drag racer, both brake down too quickly but one is slightly slower than the other.


Quote:

Quote:

Senor_Doobie said:
Scientists all point to complex carbohydrates, like those found in leafy green vegetables and whole grains to be more beneficial than simple sugars like those found in fruit.  The reason is because the carbohydrates are more complex and take longer to convert into usable sugar and this slows your appetite and allows a more steady supply of fuel as opposed to sugars which are burned more quickly.





Scientists are fucktards who do bullshit studys that mean nothing to me in labs usually on mice. Ontop of this it should be obvious to you that anything that takes longer to digest is worse for you, the longer somthing takes to digest the more it taxes your body. When i was eating bread, rice etc. i was always tired and never had energy cus my body was using all its energy to digest food, now i eat acouple pounds of fruit and i feel like superman. Wheat is a manmade bullshit food, along with potatos, corn and soy. The fact anyone suggest to eat any of these products over fruits simply amazes me.


Another amazing thing about being primarily fruitarian, I DONT DRINK WATER!!!. Yes thats right i no longer have to drink bullshit water, i get the cleanest, purest water possible via fruits!!!! Gone are the days of mineral striped tapwater and plastic jugs :smile:




Bread. rice and the like digest extremely quickly, not sure where you thought it didn't. Wheat is not manmade, the process in which it is eaten is however, Potatoes, corn, and soy all existed, by like your fruit, have been breed for what people want out of them. I don't recommend those foods except potatoes if forced to eat carbohydrates, but I would pick that over some fruit.

Lol you realize unless the fruit you get is watered with reverse osmosis water you are still getting the fluoride, arsenic, lead and other problems of tap water. Fruit does not filter out the bad stuff.


Ugh, anything else?


Edited by Lennyk (07/31/09 04:05 PM)


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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Lennyk]
    #10764057 - 07/29/09 07:43 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

For now, just fix your post.

I'll refute your crap later.


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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #10770727 - 07/30/09 08:05 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

I've realized trying to argue with some one about what is right or wrong about nutrition, especially over the internet, is fucking retarded. There is so many studies that say varying things, no one really no's for sure what is right and wrong. If you can't grasp common sense that plants , especially fruits, are the most beneficial thing available to us then by all means continue with your meat. If it works for you why change it? You'll see in a couple years the error of your ways or you might not, who knows. All i know is fruits and vegetables are the most potent, nutritious, tasty food available so I'm gonna eat them in mass quantities.

By the way your assumption that we don't need carbohydrates is right but its flawed, while we might not necessarily need carbohydrates they are without a doubt the most efficient fuel for our body. You have fun synthesizing all your carbohydrates I know from experience that a high fat diet drains the fuck out of you, try a high fruit diet for just one week and you'll see the meaning of true energy!

Also don't forget that protein is dangerous, you only need 10% of your calorie intake to be made up protein. It can cause many problems for you if you eat excess protein


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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Andre Nickatina]
    #10771124 - 07/30/09 09:34 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

you know i think we should all agree on one thing; americans are fat lazy fucks who eat too much, regardless of what they are eating.

eat what you want, just stop eating 4500 calories a day. then try getting off your ass and doing something once and a while.


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Re: Go Vegan [Re: eastuvdariver]
    #10771162 - 07/30/09 09:41 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

If you want to lose weight, the best way to do that is to stop eating meat and meat byproducts  and start exercising. 

Its really that easy.  And its a lot easier than you think.  Just buy some steel cut oats and a bunch of bananas.  Eat a bowl and a banana for breakfast, a big salad for lunch, and if you don't exercise see if you even want a dinner.  Pick on nuts and fruit during the day.  You won't even need to eat dinner.


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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #10771180 - 07/30/09 09:45 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

I mean that's the whole point is that the results are inarguable.  I lent out my copy of the China Study.  When I get it back I'll show some charts that will blow your mind.

And to the guy who can't figure out how to use ubb code:

If you eat meat byproducts, you are not vegan.  This probably explains why you feel no difference since you started eating meat again.  Also, if you ate a bunch of processed foods, that was bad on you too.  Converting to a vegan diet is the easiest thing in the world.  I've only been eating this way since May and I've already converted 3 people.


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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #10775692 - 07/31/09 04:23 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Senor_Doobie said:
I mean that's the whole point is that the results are inarguable.  I lent out my copy of the China Study.  When I get it back I'll show some charts that will blow your mind.

And to the guy who can't figure out how to use ubb code:

If you eat meat byproducts, you are not vegan.  This probably explains why you feel no difference since you started eating meat again.  Also, if you ate a bunch of processed foods, that was bad on you too.  Converting to a vegan diet is the easiest thing in the world.  I've only been eating this way since May and I've already converted 3 people.



:rolleyes: I fixed it, I submitted it because I was in a hurry trying to type so much.

The china study has many flaws, found just as easily as a google search.

I was vegan for a while with no junk food whatsoever, hell I was eating no sugar (except from fruit, but I know better now). I ate no processed food whatsoever (except if you consider hemp protein a processed food) I had all the hardcore vegan stuff like spirulina (I didn't have any soy) and had no artificial sweeteners, no soda no nothing. I had chia seeds for the omega 3 (inferior I might add to the fish oil I have now) and raw nuts for some of the parent omega 6. I followed everything according to the the various health people, even did most of the stuff raw to boot. I would adjust the fat (unsaturated) between that of the 80/10/10 diet, and other raw enthusiasts.

Seemed fine for a little while, then I started to get major digestive problems and energy spikes and drops (yes from fruit, stable energy my ass) started to gain fat mass and loss muscle. I went from doing 4 different mini-workouts a day (I don't recommend that much exercise now, but to put things in perspective) to nearly killing over half way through the day. I kept losing concentration in martial arts because I was bloated and had to refrain from passing wind every second I would out of class. People call that detoxing, I say, yeah right.

I am not just some random meat head troll, I know far reaching theories from a lot of different people (although I feel many are misguided).

In case you are wondering, the diet I did before the vegan trial was free of produced food and all that jazz, it had vegetables, but the largest food source was fat and protein from the eggs and chicken I ate. It was atkins in a sense before I know about atkins and it worked fine, it was an incredible upgrade from peanut butter banana sandwiches on white bread and ramen with processed american cheese. The vegan fruit thing was a big let down for I had thought it would be this amazing thing and all the meat heads were just like heroin addicts unable to give up meat. It simply was not the case though, and the current science based on tried and true history and body function backs up what I do now, a ketogenic diet. I have no cramps ever when I run, despite I run harder and faster, I am not sure when I return from a run. My weightlifting gets better and better with much less problems. I continue to get leaner as I gain muscle, I am mentally sharper and have less foggy feelings, and I rarely feel hungry.

I apologize if I has sounded like an ass in some of my posts, but I have checked into these diets and as I learn more I develop myself into what I see is the best.  :justdontknow:


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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #10776119 - 07/31/09 05:36 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Complete nutrition comes from eating anything and everything in moderation.

Skipping anything means your missing something.

The human race would have gone extinct long ago if it weren't for fish, milk and meat because there is no one place on the planet that has ever naturally grown a sustainable and nutritious diet.

Farming may have given more options but still there is no place on the planet that can grow enough nutrients to support a growing population.  Even with our advances in transportation and storage, meat is a necessary source that fills the nutrient gaps in the plant kingdom.

If you chose to live your life animal free, kudos but if your doing it for health reasons, why would you rob yourself of such a natural and abundant resource?


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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Lennyk]
    #10778777 - 08/01/09 06:16 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Lennyk said:


Seemed fine for a little while, then I started to get major digestive problems and energy spikes and drops (yes from fruit, stable energy my ass) started to gain fat mass and loss muscle. I went from doing 4 different mini-workouts a day (I don't recommend that much exercise now, but to put things in perspective) to nearly killing over half way through the day. I kept losing concentration in martial arts because I was bloated and had to refrain from passing wind every second I would out of class. People call that detoxing, I say, yeah right.






Let me guess, not enough calories, too much fat or not enough fruit! If you were doing it right there is no way you felt like this, what you describe is how i felt when 50% of my calorie intake was coming from Cashews. On top of that you have to make sure you eat the right combinations of foods and don't food mix hardcore, its not hard but it takes a little planning. Right now I primarily eat a mixture of melons, figs and oranges to make sure i get all my nutrition. It won't work unless you eat primarily fruits(fruit makes up about 95% of my diet) and over 75% of you Cals come from carbs, you also need to do alot of exercise.


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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Lennyk]
    #10778780 - 08/01/09 06:19 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Lennyk said:
the current science based on tried and true history and body function backs up what I do now, a ketogenic diet.




Can we see this scientific proof?


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Re: Go Vegan [Re: GabbaDj]
    #10778787 - 08/01/09 06:26 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

GabbaDj said:
Complete nutrition comes from eating anything and everything in moderation.

Skipping anything means your missing something.

The human race would have gone extinct long ago if it weren't for fish, milk and meat because there is no one place on the planet that has ever naturally grown a sustainable and nutritious diet.

Farming may have given more options but still there is no place on the planet that can grow enough nutrients to support a growing population.  Even with our advances in transportation and storage, meat is a necessary source that fills the nutrient gaps in the plant kingdom.

If you chose to live your life animal free, kudos but if your doing it for health reasons, why would you rob yourself of such a natural and abundant resource?




Dude your post is filled with ignorance to the max, First off "skipping anything means your missing something" is 100% completely false the world doesn't work like that. I get all the nutrition i need from 3 fruits figs, oranges and melons. 3 things give me everything i need, pretty amazing huh?

Do you really believe there is no place on earth that has ever naturally grown a sustainable and nutritious diet? Lets see China, Africa at one time, Hawaii, South america, Get a clue dude. All these places and plenty more have naturally growing fruits that will nourish you and give you every single vitamin, mineral, protein, fat etc.


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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Andre Nickatina]
    #10778804 - 08/01/09 06:33 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

i'll stick to my ham and cheese sandwich with lettuce tomato and onions.
its got every thing a man needs.


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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Andre Nickatina]
    #10778878 - 08/01/09 07:38 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Andre Nickatina said:
Quote:

Lennyk said:


Seemed fine for a little while, then I started to get major digestive problems and energy spikes and drops (yes from fruit, stable energy my ass) started to gain fat mass and loss muscle. I went from doing 4 different mini-workouts a day (I don't recommend that much exercise now, but to put things in perspective) to nearly killing over half way through the day. I kept losing concentration in martial arts because I was bloated and had to refrain from passing wind every second I would out of class. People call that detoxing, I say, yeah right.






Let me guess, not enough calories, too much fat or not enough fruit! If you were doing it right there is no way you felt like this, what you describe is how i felt when 50% of my calorie intake was coming from Cashews. On top of that you have to make sure you eat the right combinations of foods and don't food mix hardcore, its not hard but it takes a little planning. Right now I primarily eat a mixture of melons, figs and oranges to make sure i get all my nutrition. It won't work unless you eat primarily fruits(fruit makes up about 95% of my diet) and over 75% of you Cals come from carbs, you also need to do alot of exercise.




I told you I varied it, even for a while I followed the 80/10/10 diet by Dr. Graham (cracker  :lol: ) In which 80 percent of the calories comes from carbohydrates. Those carbs are almost from fruit, some in the vegetables, and a few from the nuts you eat. 10 percent is protein from a few nuts but mainly a build up of amino acids you accumulate from all the varieties of fruit, and 10% fat from a few nuts, seeds, and an avocado sometimes.

It simply was not working, it wasn't the same tired as an introduction to ketosis, it was a different tired and I was a lot more sore.
Quote:

Andre Nickatina said:
Quote:

Lennyk said:
the current science based on tried and true history and body function backs up what I do now, a ketogenic diet.




Can we see this scientific proof?





It is all about what the healthy pre-industrialized cultures ate.

"Pacific islanders with high intakes of fat, mostly from coconut, comprising up to 50% of total daily calories indicated “no evidence of the high saturated fat intake having a harmful effect in these populations.” When these people migrated to New Zealand, however, and lowered their intake of coconut oil and total fat, their cholesterol increased, and their HDL cholesterol decreased."

The same thing happened to many groups of indians, as well as the inuits.

The blood profiles of groups astonishes mainstream doctors that saturated fat actually improves the profile instead of utterly ruining it from reducing saturated fat intake.

I have looked at the long time fruitiatrians, and despite good dental hygiene their teeth simply wear away.

Don't get me wrong, I love fruit as much as I love cheesecake, but I gave all that up without replacing it with frankenfood simply because I want to see how far I can push my mind and body by supplying it's preferred fuel, ketones. The brain and heart both run much better on ketones, the heart burns fat whether or not in ketosis. Although the brain does need some glucose, that becomes supplied (and is aided by the few carbs in eggs one gets) by the protein you eat.

Only time will tell whether or not my assessment of the past will lead to a good future, until then I never stop searching for the next improvement.


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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Lennyk]
    #10778915 - 08/01/09 08:00 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Show me one long time fruitarian with bad teeth, they don't exist because the people who are too retarded to do it right and fuck up there teeth go back to cooked food. A fruitarian diet isn't for people who don't want to do research, you have to do the diet completely right or you can seriously fuck yourself up. This includes never eating non ripe fruit, eating only organic(preferably local from the farmer) and getting the right combination of fruits.

If you tried the diet and it didn't work for you I can't really tell you your wrong :p but from experience i find my body has the opposite results as yours. I was on a high fat diet for about a month, i ate tons of fresh coconuts, fresh mac nuts, cashews, avocados etc. I never had energy to do work and i always felt fatigued. It also started to fuck up my teeth, now that I'm on a all fruit diet my teeth are actually healing and they don't hurt anymore :smile:. I suppose its possible that what one person thrives on another person dies on heh. By the way just because one group of people thrived on a diet doesn't make it scientifically proven, people have been thriving on all fruit diets for thousands and thousands of years. Native american people have very long lives and lived primarily on watermelon, grapes, corn and small amounts of fish.

You gotta remember we have a sweet tooth for a reason :smile:


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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Andre Nickatina]
    #10780294 - 08/01/09 01:52 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Andre Nickatina said:
Show me one long time fruitarian with bad teeth, :smile:




Show me one long time fruitarian.  This whole movement of veganism and even vegetarianism is still pretty new and nobody knows what will happen if generation of offspring are forced into a diet without meat.

Early studies are not good though.  Children of life long vegetarians tend to be smaller, weaker and not as healthy as you might think.

Don't try to kid yourself by thinking that your getting everything that you need just because you feel good and because your alive.  Your body is adapting on the inside and its making due with what its given.  If your insides could talk, Ill bet that it would say "wont somebody please think of the children".

3 figs, some apples and some melons.  Sounds like a terrible way to live if you ask me.  I'm an adult and I do set boundaries for myself.  I know that eating a hot fudge sundae isn't that good for me, but man, to deny myself the pleasure of that ewey gooey melted chocolate and the creamy frozen silkiness of dairy would be inhuman.

You may think that you are doing these things for your health but what about your social health?  Your socially outcasting yourself by denying yourself the number one most basic of human bonding rituals.  The Feast.

Break bread brother, break bread.


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Re: Go Vegan [Re: GabbaDj]
    #10780476 - 08/01/09 02:34 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

The rural Chinese have been eating meat free for at least 2000 years.  There is nothing new about not eating meat.  Plato even wrote a dialogue about the benefits of vegetarianism over an omnivorous diet.

You've got some serious misconceptions, butcher man.


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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #10780664 - 08/01/09 03:16 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Senor_Doobie said:
The rural Chinese have been eating meat free for at least 2000 years.  There is nothing new about not eating meat.  Plato even wrote a dialogue about the benefits of vegetarianism over an omnivorous diet.

You've got some serious misconceptions, butcher man.




That's just not true. 


Ive got to clear up one thing though..  I'm mostly talking about vegans and vegetarians who cut out ALL meat products.  Babies NEED milk and real animal nutrients to survive.  As adults you may need much less to "survive" but people still need the real thing and no substitute will ever be enough.

If people want to live a life free of eating or drinking animals, well that's fine and yes, it's been proven that you can do it successfully.  But we all will get old and nothing can stop the signs of aging.  In the end, we are all going to suffer the same fate.

In fact I hope that the vegans are right and that they do live the longest..  After all their friends are peacefully resting in the ground they should have an extra few years to contemplate all that they have missed while some stranger pushes them around the old folks home between diaper changes and bland tasteless meals watching reruns of Matlock.

Life is way too short people, don't deny yourself of it's pleasures.



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Re: Go Vegan [Re: GabbaDj]
    #10780847 - 08/01/09 03:57 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

some stuff from gary taubes
Quote:

"“The more fructose in the diet, the higher the subsequent triglyceride levels in the blood,” Taubes writes on page 200. While our health authorities have focused largely on the health risks of high LDL cholesterol levels, Taubes demonstrates that our triglyceride – fat – levels are even more important in terms of our risks for heart attacks.

And especially troublesome for people with diabetes is that high-fructose diets lead us to secrete more insulin, which in turn leads to more insulin resistance. That’s because fructose seems to block both the metabolism of glucose in the liver as well as the synthesis of glucose into glycogen, the way that the liver stores glucose.

It’s even worse, Taubes writes. Fructose is perhaps 10 times worse than glucose in the way our bodies form AGEs.

It happened that just as I was reading Taubes, my favorite Certified Diabetes Educator brought to my attention a thought-provoking interview with Dr. Lustig. This interview, broadcast originally on Australia’s ABC Ratio National, confirms the outlines of Taubes’s brief against fructose.

“The only organ in your body that can take up fructose is your liver,” Dr. Lustig told interviewer Norman Swan. The first thing that eating fructose does is causing an increase in uric acid, Dr. Lustig said. Fructose inhibits nitric oxide, which would otherwise reduce our blood pressure. “So fructose is famous for causing hypertension (high blood pressure).”

“The second is that fructose initiates what’s known as de novo lipogenesis, excess fat production….And then the last thing that fructose does in the liver is it initiates an enzyme….What happens is that your insulin receptors in your liver stop working….That means your insulin levels all over your body have to rise.”

When I wrote Dr. Lustig today to ask him the name of the enzyme that fructose initiates in the liver, he told me that they call it “c-jun N-terminal kinase-1” or just JNK-1 or Junk-1. "It serine phosphorylates a protein in the liver called IRS-1 (insulin receptor substrate-1), thereby rendering it inactive. This induces hepatic insulin resistance."

Dr. Lustig also sent me a PDF of a slides for a talk he recently gave that he called "The trouble with fructose." I swear that this just happens to be the same title I had already decided to use for this article. I have uploaded his article to my site.

Damning stuff, this. In fact, “we’re being poisoned to death,” Dr. Ludwig concludes."




Quote:

GabbaDj said:
Quote:

Andre Nickatina said:
Show me one long time fruitarian with bad teeth, :smile:




Show me one long time fruitarian.  This whole movement of veganism and even vegetarianism is still pretty new and nobody knows what will happen if generation of offspring are forced into a diet without meat.

Early studies are not good though.  Children of life long vegetarians tend to be smaller, weaker and not as healthy as you might think.

Don't try to kid yourself by thinking that your getting everything that you need just because you feel good and because your alive.  Your body is adapting on the inside and its making due with what its given.  If your insides could talk, Ill bet that it would say "wont somebody please think of the children".

3 figs, some apples and some melons.  Sounds like a terrible way to live if you ask me.  I'm an adult and I do set boundaries for myself.  I know that eating a hot fudge sundae isn't that good for me, but man, to deny myself the pleasure of that ewey gooey melted chocolate and the creamy frozen silkiness of dairy would be inhuman.

You may think that you are doing these things for your health but what about your social health?  Your socially outcasting yourself by denying yourself the number one most basic of human bonding rituals.  The Feast.

Break bread brother, break bread.




Yes feasts and the simply pleasures are indeed good, I try to those far between but I must agree that for the short term there may not be problems with this fruit diet, but long term is where it gets shaky.

Fruitarians are probably the smallest group of the various sects, and even ghandi and his followers stopped realizing it was unsustainable.

If you don't take b12 you will eventually die, even if speculation is true that b12 used to be able to found in the soil due to it being made by bacteria, that is no longer the case. Fruits would be a terrible source none the less, as they would have rotten and fermented by the time they would collect enough b12 from the soil below, as simply growing it in b12 enriched soil will not cause the fruit to have it.

"The Health Promotion Program at Columbia University reports that a fruitarian diet can cause deficiencies in calcium, protein, iron, zinc, vitamin D, most B vitamins (especially B12), and essential fatty acids."

Now one can certainly argue you get vitamin D from the sun, which is true so Columbia University does need to work on that, although in the winter I can see where they come from as cod liver oil could be added, but not to a vegan diet. I must agree though with the other points, as most fruitarians convert from a previous diet, they can sustain life just based on their reserves. B12 problems can be 6-7 years away from stopping intact of b12, and sometimes longer as the body has some ability to recycle it, but eventually once it is up you are screwed and die a quick painful death at that point.

They left out vitamin A problems, I guess that is simply because vegans usually do eat a fair amount of fat, but in the case of fruitarians little fat is consumed and hinders the process of going from beta carotene to vitamin A, so be sure to make sure the times of the day you eat fat you maximize the conversion.

Another point I would like to make is, fruit is seasonal and before advances would usually be eaten right before the winter season as it is processed by the liver which overflows and allows fat to be packed on. Again I must also add, fruit used to be more sour than sweet, a bitter instead of savory treat, edible, but not delectable.

It is also essential to get enough DHA/EPA, which you convert from ALA, but most nuts and seed simply do not have, but have plenty of omega 6's (and if not raw and cold stored will be oxidized and fairly useless if not completely dangerous). Chia seed is defiantly useful for a powerful source of nutrition (again if must be consumed, a bit high in fiber though) but ALA is fairly bad as converting, and some people can barely do it if at all.

O I did not forget my comment about teeth problems, citric acid in fruit will wear at tooth enamel, especially the constant intake of acidic fruit will stop the normal salvia neutrality from coming back (as it can take an hour or so sometimes). I know many dentists and they tell me about how the heavy fruit eaters see some of the damage of soda drinkers. The worst bar none is fruit juice though, still as much as you believe your teeth are stronger, I can only hope they are, cause I don't have it out for you to have them wear out.


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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Lennyk]
    #10781096 - 08/01/09 04:49 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Write what you want..  The fact is.

Lot's of super healthy people end up with the same types of health problems and illnesses as lazy, fat meat eaters.

That's why I exercise daily and I eat a ton of fruits and vegetables, I love my salads.  Besides Arizona tea and Snapple I've given up all sugary drinks and I rarely ever eat candy but I do like a slice of pie every now and then and beer is a staple in my diet.  Lately I've really been watching my sodium intake and eating much less salt.

I eat fish about twice a month and not all meat is high in fat.  Pork chicken, beef.  All can be very lean and healthy.  Still I love a nice thick fatty grilled ribeye about two or three times a month and I could eat big fatty meatballs in marinara every day, but I don't.  I WON'T.

I won't do it because it is true, you can force some health problems onto your body by eating lots of meats high in fat.  On the same note there are health problems associated with eating a diet that's too high in certain vitamins. 

Yin and Yang, everything in moderation, skip nothing.


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Edited by GabbaDj (08/01/09 04:56 PM)


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Re: Go Vegan [Re: GabbaDj]
    #10781211 - 08/01/09 05:10 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

GabbaDj said:
Write what you want..  The fact is.

Lot's of super healthy people end up with the same types of health problems and illnesses as lazy, fat meat eaters.

That's why I exercise daily and I eat a ton of fruits and vegetables, I love my salads.  Besides Arizona tea and Snapple I've given up all sugary drinks and I rarely ever eat candy but I do like a slice of pie every now and then and beer is a staple in my diet.  Lately I've really been watching my sodium intake and eating much less salt.

I eat fish about twice a month and not all meat is high in fat.  Pork chicken, beef.  All can be very lean and healthy.  Still I love a nice thick fatty grilled ribeye about two or three times a month and I could eat big fatty meatballs in marinara every day, but I don't.  I WON'T.

I won't do it because it is true, you can force some health problems onto your body by eating lots of meats high in fat.  On the same note there are health problems associated with eating a diet that's too high in certain vitamins. 

Yin and Yang, everything in moderation, skip nothing.




See I agree with you in most cases, and glad you enjoy the simply pleasures (apple pie done right is better than sex), but I still feel that fat is wrongfully demonized, at least saturated fat. The excess of vegetable oil is a plague though, but natural meat fats do a body good. Butter, lard, bacon, tallow, and other saturated fats are the only thing one should cook in, and be a large part of the diet. The polyunsaturated oil should really only come into play with unoxidized forms of fish oil and evening primrose/borage oil/whatever comes in the natural foods you eat as long as you avoid soy, corn, and other problematic foods.


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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Andre Nickatina]
    #10781290 - 08/01/09 05:23 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Do you really believe there is no place on earth that has ever naturally grown a sustainable and nutritious diet? Lets see China, Africa at one time, Hawaii, South america, Get a clue dude. All these places and plenty more have naturally growing fruits that will nourish you and give you every single vitamin, mineral, protein, fat etc.




I said no place has ever naturally grown....  And its true, naturally their is no single place on the planet that ever grew a sustainable and totally nutritious diet for a growing population.  Sure you can farm what you need but even then, not all fruits and vegetables can be grown in all places and harvest times are limited to season.

It takes incredible effort and investment to have the timed farming, harvest, transport and storage to sustain a vegetarians diet.  Without that effort a population can eat most fruit and vegetable harvests in just a few weeks.  The remainder must be dried or preserved, taking the notion of "fresh" completely out of the equation.

I don't think that most vegans and vegetarians have a clue what their limited options would be like without the advances in super modified factory farming and the year round produce selection at there local mega store.

I say we stick the vegans in Minnesota for three years and let them farm all that they can naturally and eat all they want..    Ill bet that more than half give up the first winter having to eat nothing but a limited selection of preserves and flat bread with stale beans.


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OfflineAndre Nickatina
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Re: Go Vegan [Re: GabbaDj]
    #10782124 - 08/01/09 08:02 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

GabbaDj said:


Show me one long time fruitarian.  This whole movement of veganism and even vegetarianism is still pretty new and nobody knows what will happen if generation of offspring are forced into a diet without meat.




How moronic can your statements get? I wonder what your gonna say next. Plenty of people thru history have thrived on fruit diets, Dr doug graham has been doing it for 25 years without any troubles along with tons and tons of others.




Early studies are not good though.  Children of life long vegetarians tend to be smaller, weaker and not as healthy as you might think.
Quote:



Says who? you? lol

Quote:

Don't try to kid yourself by thinking that your getting everything that you need just because you feel good and because your alive.  Your body is adapting on the inside and its making due with what its given.  If your insides could talk, Ill bet that it would say "wont somebody please think of the children".




Sorry bro but i don't "kid myself" its called fitday.com moron, i get more then 100% of every essential vitamin. Do you? probably not

Quote:

3 figs, some apples and some melons.  Sounds like a terrible way to live if you ask me.  I'm an adult and I do set boundaries for myself.




You just don't stop, missed my post where i said i eat 15+ pounds of fruit a day? usually around 20ish. I get 2000-3000 cals just from fruit on a daily basis.

Quote:

You may think that you are doing these things for your health but what about your social health?  Your socially outcasting yourself by denying yourself the number one most basic of human bonding rituals.  The Feast.




More assumptions, I dont need "the feast" to socialize, if people don't want to accept my fod habits fuck them. You act as if i don't eat, i can assure you i eat plenty


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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Andre Nickatina]
    #10782380 - 08/01/09 08:40 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

How moronic can your statements get? I wonder what your gonna say next. Plenty of people thru history have thrived on fruit diets, Dr doug graham has been doing it for 25 years without any troubles along with tons and tons of others.




Ya know what's most funny about all these claims from all these vegan or fruit quacks.  They all have had the benefit of growing up drinking milk, eating cheese and meat and benefiting from all that mother nature provides us..

Show me one person who has NEVER in his life ever drank milk, eaten an egg or had a hamburger and Ill show you a pale, week and sick person struggling to survive...

As for the children of vegans and children being raised vegan or fruity..  DO your own research, since you are the one who has made the choice, you should already know..  BABIES ARE NOT HEALTHY ON PLANTS ALONE!  Its an undisputed FACT and every major reputable medical association in the world agrees. 

We as humans have enjoyed a high birth success rate for a long time now..  I for one, welcome all you fruities and veggies and vegans as we grow into a world with limited resources.

I for one, thank you for ensuring that your future offspring will be to weak to steal my bacon when it finally comes down to us vs. you. 

Quote:

More assumptions, I dint need "the feast" to socialize, if people don't want to accept my fod habits fuck them. You act as if i don't eat, i can assure you i eat plenty




Its not about socializing, its about human nature.  Humans are supposed to eat meat, b12 dictates that we MUST have meat in our diets or we will go extinct.  Ill bet that you had McDonald's twice a month as a child and your parents often made hamburger helper and you often ate chicken and pork and fish and such.  If not I apologize, I'm sorry that you have no muscle mass, really I am.

But if you did have a regular meat eating childhood, you need to acknowledge the fact that you are who you are because of the nutrition given to you from eating animals and it is this animal nutrition that has enabled you to make the fruity choice that you make today.  If not you would be an adult trying to make up for the lack of animal nutrition during childhood for the rest of your life.


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OfflineAndre Nickatina
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Re: Go Vegan [Re: GabbaDj]
    #10784297 - 08/02/09 07:23 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

GabbaDj said:
Quote:

How moronic can your statements get? I wonder what your gonna say next. Plenty of people thru history have thrived on fruit diets, Dr doug graham has been doing it for 25 years without any troubles along with tons and tons of others.




Ya know what's most funny about all these claims from all these vegan or fruit quacks.  They all have had the benefit of growing up drinking milk, eating cheese and meat and benefiting from all that mother nature provides us..

Show me one person who has NEVER in his life ever drank milk, eaten an egg or had a hamburger and Ill show you a pale, week and sick person struggling to survive...






Wow, maybe if you realized how anything in this world worked you would realize all the benefits of milk, cheese and meat are found in plant material. Avocado's, nuts and seeds all have much healthier fat and protein content then animal products. I've met many raw vegan children and i can assure you they don't look pale and weak, ontop of that its been my findings that kids who are raw vegan are much more out going and pleasant to be around.

Its clear you've been brainwashed by the meat and dairy industries, you seriously think that bullshit is necessary? Your fucking insane bro, your too scared to back it up with any sort of fact because you know its completely false.

Keep claiming vegans are so weak, i can guarantee i have more stamina then you and am anything but weak. I get all my vitamins, minerals, proteins etc. etc. Do you? I doubt it.
You wanna bring up b12? Scientist know very little about this chemical, its now known that b vitamins are a complex and any food that contains one will contain them all. They just recently found that 100 grams of raspberries has 30% daily b12 and so do many other fruits/vegetables.

You know whats funny is i did have a normal meat eating child hood as you described, it totally fucked me. I was overweight, had severe colitis(ibs), had little energy ever and I was seriously malnourished. Meat, bread and cheese have severely fucked my insides and I'm still living with the consequences of my actions. Making kids eat that bullshit and calling it food is beyond ridiculous.


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Re: Go Vegan [Re: GabbaDj]
    #10784322 - 08/02/09 07:38 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

GabbaDj said:


I said no place has ever naturally grown....  And its true, naturally their is no single place on the planet that ever grew a sustainable and totally nutritious diet for a growing population.  Sure you can farm what you need but even then, not all fruits and vegetables can be grown in all places and harvest times are limited to season.




So now the meat eater is gonna tell me how fruits grow and work? LMAO. There is a fruit for every season, before industrialization fruit trees literally grew wild everywhere. You can still find many wild fruit trees in china including but not limited too, Figs, apples, pears, peaches, goji berries, plums, oranges. You don't need to farm anything, its called FORAGING look it up

Quote:

It takes incredible effort and investment to have the timed farming, harvest, transport and storage to sustain a vegetarians diet.  Without that effort a population can eat most fruit and vegetable harvests in just a few weeks.  The remainder must be dried or preserved, taking the notion of "fresh" completely out of the equation.

I don't think that most vegans and vegetarians have a clue what their limited options would be like without the advances in super modified factory farming and the year round produce selection at there local mega store.




There is no incredible effort, you ever seen a pig or cow farm? now thats effort. Maybe you buy all your shit from the store but incase you didn't know they have these things called farmers markets. I get 100% of my food local from small farms and i literally know the people who grow it. Your assumption that fruit and vegetables some how go bad after a week is amazing, most fruit can be stored without refrigeration for months at a time. Unlike meat which will spoil

Quote:



I say we stick the vegans in Minnesota for three years and let them farm all that they can naturally and eat all they want..    Ill bet that more than half give up the first winter having to eat nothing but a limited selection of preserves and flat bread with stale beans.




Or maybe its the fact that Humans are tropical animals, we arn't meant to live where it snows. The places where humans evolved fruits and vegetation grew all year long


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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Andre Nickatina]
    #10784334 - 08/02/09 07:44 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

One last thing while I'm still going off on my tangent. I don't deny myself of any pleasure in life, Its ridiculous to live your life that way, but I am aware. Smoking crack, speed, take whiffs of dustoff, snorting heroin etc. will all give me pleasure but i deny myself of these things, why? Because there fucking toxic, poisonous chemicals that have no place in the body. Just like the meat, cheese, bread and milk that you call "food"


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Re: Go Vegan [Re: GabbaDj]
    #10784396 - 08/02/09 08:13 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

GabbaDj said:
Quote:

Senor_Doobie said:
The rural Chinese have been eating meat free for at least 2000 years.  There is nothing new about not eating meat.  Plato even wrote a dialogue about the benefits of vegetarianism over an omnivorous diet.

You've got some serious misconceptions, butcher man.




That's just not true. 





Yes it is...you can't just say something isn't true in the face of a shit ton of evidence to the contrary.  The rural Chinese get less than ten percent of their caloric intake from protein.  It is obvious Gabba that you have not read this thread and have just started posting to it at the end with a bunch of unsubstantiated opinion about what is required for the human diet.

There is absolutely no need to eat animal products or byproducts to grow up big and strong.  Unless you think that so many billions of Chinese people are pale and weak.

What are these special nutrients gained from meat and meat byproducts that can not be gained naturally?

Also, you think that Vegans miss out on the good stuff in life because they don't eat ice cream sundaes...

Look, I mean if it is worth it for you to get cancer and be a drain on the medical system because you want to enjoy life and let the facts be damned.  Its absurd, man.

Milkshakes now and cancer later, that shows a real value for the things that are important.

Oh and the other thing:  You think that a Vegan diet is bland?  I guess you don't really like Indian food or Thai food, huh?  The #1 word that I think of when I hear Thai food is: bland...


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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #10785503 - 08/02/09 12:25 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Andre Nickatina said:


Wow, maybe if you realized how anything in this world worked you would realize all the benefits of milk, cheese and meat are found in plant material. Avocado's, nuts and seeds all have much healthier fat and protein content then animal products. I've met many raw vegan children and i can assure you they don't look pale and weak, ontop of that its been my findings that kids who are raw vegan are much more out going and pleasant to be around.




Only if you believe saturated fat is bad (which it isn't and was wrongfully demonized in the mid 1900's), and people have been getting fatter and sicker sense.

Quote:

Its clear you've been brainwashed by the meat and dairy industries, you seriously think that bullshit is necessary? Your fucking insane bro, your too scared to back it up with any sort of fact because you know its completely false.



The dairy and meat industry don't advertise nearly as much as the soy one, and they even do themselves a disservice by saying fat is bad and to only eat lean beef and nonfat dairy. Works for me fine though, the fatty cuts are cheaper as a result for me to buy.

Quote:

Keep claiming vegans are so weak, i can guarantee i have more stamina then you and am anything but weak. I get all my vitamins, minerals, proteins etc. etc. Do you? I doubt it.
You wanna bring up b12? Scientist know very little about this chemical, its now known that b vitamins are a complex and any food that contains one will contain them all. They just recently found that 100 grams of raspberries has 30% daily b12 and so do many other fruits/vegetables.





I have not been able to find this information about b12 being in raspberries. I sincerely doubt that unless the bacteria to produce b12 is present on it.
Quote:

You know whats funny is i did have a normal meat eating child hood as you described, it totally fucked me. I was overweight, had severe colitis(ibs), had little energy ever and I was seriously malnourished. Meat, bread and cheese have severely fucked my insides and I'm still living with the consequences of my actions. Making kids eat that bullshit and calling it food is beyond ridiculous.




Kids eat more than meat, more than cheese, all that white flour going into the bread and macaroni and so much sugar. That stuff is going to fatten you up, I know it did it to me before I changed my habits, stupid ritz crackers.

Quote:

Andre Nickatina said:


So now the meat eater is gonna tell me how fruits grow and work? LMAO. There is a fruit for every season, before industrialization fruit trees literally grew wild everywhere. You can still find many wild fruit trees in china including but not limited too, Figs, apples, pears, peaches, goji berries, plums, oranges. You don't need to farm anything, its called FORAGING look it up




Only in places without cold seasons, and as I have said in the absence of fruit and vegetables, meat was eaten without problems. Native populations eating large amounts of fruit are not immune from the problems, as even though they are not industrialized they use their own technology to climb certain fruit trees and use knives to get ate the fruit. Previously these trees would not be accessible due to the nature of some trees being to painful to climb. Yet again I also bring up, the fruit is not the same fruit, thing of tomatoes, not sweet (especially some of the ones for some hearty stewed tomatoes) but a fruit. The fruit has been grown for our sweet tooth to sell more, you never find people picking low sugar sour apples over the nice sweet ones for just eating.

I have eaten wild fruit, and usually it is pretty bitter as best.

From Dr. Ben Kim: "Another problem with a high fruit diet is that it can lead to problems involving the hormones that regulate your blood sugar; insulin, glucagon, and growth hormone. A chronic imbalance of these hormones is a sure way to develop cardiovascular disease and diabetes."



Quote:

There is no incredible effort, you ever seen a pig or cow farm? now thats effort. Maybe you buy all your shit from the store but incase you didn't know they have these things called farmers markets. I get 100% of my food local from small farms and i literally know the people who grow it. Your assumption that fruit and vegetables some how go bad after a week is amazing, most fruit can be stored without refrigeration for months at a time. Unlike meat which will spoil





Hunting, no need to raise them, just spear them.
Fruits rot quickly, certain vegetables last longer (especially squash), but calorie density becomes an issue. Even if the fruit does not decay, the vitamins and minerals are lost the longer it is stored.



Quote:

Or maybe its the fact that Humans are tropical animals, we arn't meant to live where it snows. The places where humans evolved fruits and vegetation grew all year long




The inuits did fine, and humans may not be designed to deal with snow, but they are not made for the dessert either. The difference is we adapt with technology faster than by our DNA.

Quote:

Senor_Doobie said:


Yes it is...you can't just say something isn't true in the face of a shit ton of evidence to the contrary.  The rural Chinese get less than ten percent of their caloric intake from protein.  It is obvious Gabba that you have not read this thread and have just started posting to it at the end with a bunch of unsubstantiated opinion about what is required for the human diet.

There is absolutely no need to eat animal products or byproducts to grow up big and strong.  Unless you think that so many billions of Chinese people are pale and weak.

What are these special nutrients gained from meat and meat byproducts that can not be gained naturally?

Also, you think that Vegans miss out on the good stuff in life because they don't eat ice cream sundaes...

Look, I mean if it is worth it for you to get cancer and be a drain on the medical system because you want to enjoy life and let the facts be damned.  Its absurd, man.

Milkshakes now and cancer later, that shows a real value for the things that are important.

Oh and the other thing:  You think that a Vegan diet is bland?  I guess you don't really like Indian food or Thai food, huh?  The #1 word that I think of when I hear Thai food is: bland...




Any type of eating style can be quite tasty, but that is not the core of the thread, at least I thought that it wasn't.

The rural chinese also believe in cooking, so they are far from a raw food diet (I know you didn't say that, but there are those that support the raw diet as the best).

Here is just one site that shows some of the problems of the china study in case anyone cared.

In china meat was valued for it's "strengthening power." The poor ate what they could, and would even cook in rapeseed oil sometimes when they had to (unrefined canola oil, only called canola oil because it was made in canada) and that dreadful rapeseed oil is horrid on the heart and many parts of the body.

The rural laborers suffered malnourishment many times because they would work more than they could get food. It is easy to say the heart disease and such was lower when you die of starvation, disease, at birth and factor in all the unpleasant things peasants had to deal with. Also realize it was a time when sweets were a luxury and little debbie was not a couple quarters for some sugar cookies. The rich had more access to meat (commonly blamed to be the problem for diseases) but their consumption of sugar was much higher, as well as the use of non-saturated fat in cooking was still in full swing as those that can afford the tastier oils will do so. The fact is their deaths wouldn't be from exhaustion and starvation must mean it will come from somewhere else, and due to their improper luxury diet, they paid the price.

People assume just because meat is involved it throws everything else out the door for while diseases are there.


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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Lennyk]
    #10785925 - 08/02/09 01:48 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Lennyk said:


Only if you believe saturated fat is bad (which it isn't and was wrongfully demonized in the mid 1900's), and people have been getting fatter and sicker sense.




Everything i mentioned contains saturated fat.

Quote:

The dairy and meat industry don't advertise nearly as much as the soy one, and they even do themselves a disservice by saying fat is bad and to only eat lean beef and nonfat dairy. Works for me fine though, the fatty cuts are cheaper as a result for me to buy.




Soy is just as bad as meat imo, its not even edible in its raw state.

Quote:

I have not been able to find this information about b12 being in raspberries. I sincerely doubt that unless the bacteria to produce b12 is present on it.




Quote:

Many nutritional analyses of foodstuffs were carried out such a long time ago, and, as such, have not taken account of more up-to-date technology in scientific procedures. For instance, Tesco's raspberries now state quite clearly that 100g of raspberries contain 30% of the recommended daily allowance of vitamin B12. This cannot be an isolated example of a plant food which contains B12! More likely, it is just one plant food of many which contain this vitamin. Indeed, according to Dr Vetrano, current books on nutrition in the U.S. have now stated that there is B12 in any food that contains quantities of the B vitamin complex, but previously they were just not able to assay the amounts. Nowadays, more modern technology has allowed them to discover that there is B12 in those foods rich in the B complex.




http://libaware.economads.com/b12issue.php very good article on b12

Quote:

Kids eat more than meat, more than cheese, all that white flour going into the bread and macaroni and so much sugar. That stuff is going to fatten you up, I know it did it to me before I changed my habits, stupid ritz crackers.




Again as you can see from my posts i think Rice, corn, starch, gluten, wheat, refined sugars and refined fats are all just as bad as meat (if not worse). Just because crackers, bread and pasta are bad for you doesn't all of a sudden make meat good


Quote:

From Dr. Ben Kim: "Another problem with a high fruit diet is that it can lead to problems involving the hormones that regulate your blood sugar; insulin, glucagon, and growth hormone. A chronic imbalance of these hormones is a sure way to develop cardiovascular disease and diabetes."




This is bullshit unless all you do is eat unripe hybridized seedless fruit all day, even then i doubt you would develop cardiovascular disease and diabetes lol. Maybe lose your teeth and suffer some deficiencies but nothing worse then what the average american goes thru



Quote:

Hunting, no need to raise them, just spear them.
Fruits rot quickly, certain vegetables last longer (especially squash), but calorie density becomes an issue. Even if the fruit does not decay, the vitamins and minerals are lost the longer it is stored.




This is true but its still possible to store and sun dry stuff with little nutritional loss. The essenes lived off of dryed figs during the cold season. Like i stated humans are tropical primates, were supposed to live where trees fruit all year long


Quote:

The inuits did fine, and humans may not be designed to deal with snow, but they are not made for the dessert either. The difference is we adapt with technology faster than by our DNA.




We are probably one of the most adaptable animals on earth but this still does not change the fact we are designed to live naked in the tropics. The human body suffers negative effects when the temperature drops below 80 degrees


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OfflineAndre Nickatina
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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Lennyk]
    #10785951 - 08/02/09 01:52 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:


Here is just one site that shows some of the problems of the china study in case anyone cared.






Tom Billings is a moron, i would take anything he says with a grain of salt.

http://ecologos.org/tb.htm


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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Andre Nickatina]
    #10786082 - 08/02/09 02:16 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

So now the meat eater is gonna tell me how fruits grow and work? LMAO. There is a fruit for every season, before industrialization fruit trees literally grew wild everywhere. You can still find many wild fruit trees in china including but not limited too, Figs, apples, pears, peaches, goji berries, plums, oranges. You don't need to farm anything, its called FORAGING look it up




Your kidding me right?  NO two of those fruits are native to the same region of the world.  Some may come from "Europe" or "Asia" but none are found anywhere near each other.  Unless your "foraging" area covers several thousands of miles, your screwed. Same goes for vegetables and nuts and beans too.     

Hell I have more fruit trees in my back yard then you could have ever found natively in the U.S.
I have lemon, lime, orange, peach and plumb trees.  In my garden Ive got 4 types of tomato, cucumber, zucchini, squash, green beans, sunflowers, strawberries, tons of herbs and Ive got another cutting garden with just flowers I like to put around the house.

Still with ALL that Ive got, it would take a ton of preserving and planning to be able to feed just myself and I would definitely need MUCH more space, It would take allot more effort and with little reward.

Its time that you look it up.  I don't think you have any understanding about farming outside of finding everything you want at the grocery store whenever you want it..  Perhaps your efforts would be better spent fighting the waste involved with the world farming collective trying to keep our shelves full year round and the HUGE amount of oil and slave type labor it takes to bring them fruits you "live" on here to the U.S.

Some pics of the garden.




Wont be long before all of this is eaten and gone till next year.  I do have an everbearing lemon tree but who wants to eat lemons all year?


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OfflineAndre Nickatina
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Re: Go Vegan [Re: GabbaDj]
    #10786130 - 08/02/09 02:25 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

GabbaDj said:
Quote:

So now the meat eater is gonna tell me how fruits grow and work? LMAO. There is a fruit for every season, before industrialization fruit trees literally grew wild everywhere. You can still find many wild fruit trees in china including but not limited too, Figs, apples, pears, peaches, goji berries, plums, oranges. You don't need to farm anything, its called FORAGING look it up




Your kidding me right?  NO two of those fruits are native to the same region of the world. 




Keep making a fool of yourself, more then half of the fruits i mentioned originated from china alone. You clearly have no idea about the history of fruit or how fruit trees have evolved. Why don't you go cook up some hamburger tatertot poison and let the people who actually care about there bodies be


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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Andre Nickatina]
    #10786139 - 08/02/09 02:28 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

b]Andre Nickatina said:


Everything i mentioned contains saturated fat.




It is the percentage of other fats as well, since even vegetable oil has saturated fat in it, but it is polyunsaturated, which is easily oxidized and poison, as the essential fatty acids a minor, but important part of the diet.


Quote:


Soy is just as bad as meat imo, its not even edible in its raw state.



Agreed, just making the point that greater money flow is coming from soy, I disagree that soy is as bad as meat though. 


Quote:

Quote:

Many nutritional analyses of foodstuffs were carried out such a long time ago, and, as such, have not taken account of more up-to-date technology in scientific procedures. For instance, Tesco's raspberries now state quite clearly that 100g of raspberries contain 30% of the recommended daily allowance of vitamin B12. This cannot be an isolated example of a plant food which contains B12! More likely, it is just one plant food of many which contain this vitamin. Indeed, according to Dr Vetrano, current books on nutrition in the U.S. have now stated that there is B12 in any food that contains quantities of the B vitamin complex, but previously they were just not able to assay the amounts. Nowadays, more modern technology has allowed them to discover that there is B12 in those foods rich in the B complex.




http://libaware.economads.com/b12issue.php very good article on b12





I will look into that tonight, been trying to get all the yard work in between bought of rain, sounds interesting though, but I remain skeptical at the moment as b12 deficiency happens so I wonder if those are just analogs or what, but I will look into it.


Quote:

Again as you can see from my posts i think Rice, corn, starch, gluten, wheat, refined sugars and refined fats are all just as bad as meat (if not worse). Just because crackers, bread and pasta are bad for you doesn't all of a sudden make meat good




My post was about why you might feel like crap as a kid eating crap (as kids generally do), not because of the meat perhaps, but by the other stuff. You may be like me and have been eating gluten containing food for a long time only to realize a gluten problem too many years too late. ,



Quote:

This is bullshit unless all you do is eat unripe hybridized seedless fruit all day, even then i doubt you would develop cardiovascular disease and diabetes lol. Maybe lose your teeth and suffer some deficiencies but nothing worse then what the average american goes thru




Even fruit with seeds has been hybridized though, I am sure the fruit you eat is not how it was thousands of years ago.




Quote:

This is true but its still possible to store and sun dry stuff with little nutritional loss. The essenes lived off of dryed figs during the cold season. Like i stated humans are tropical primates, were supposed to live where trees fruit all year long




One would have to worry about scurvy, dried fruit destroys vitamin C content, however the indians with pemmican with fresh dried meat or the inuits with fresh meat would not suffer scurvy as fresh meat has stuff vitamin C turns into in the body already without a conversion taking place, or it is at least further up the chain, I forget.


Quote:

We are probably one of the most adaptable animals on earth but this still does not change the fact we are designed to live naked in the tropics. The human body suffers negative effects when the temperature drops below 80 degrees





Being warm blooded with a constant temperature, unless you are considering it a harmful stress on the body, I don't see how living in the cold is so bad.


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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Lennyk]
    #10786222 - 08/02/09 02:47 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

dried fruit destroys vitamin c content




Is there any fact to this? I'm talking about sun-dried, i know Vit-c is easily oxidized but was under the assumption that sun drying preserved some if not all of the Vit-c content. Only mention of Vit-c loss I've heard is if using copper trays


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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Andre Nickatina]
    #10786319 - 08/02/09 03:10 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:


Keep making a fool of yourself, more then half of the fruits i mentioned originated from china alone. You clearly have no idea about the history of fruit or how fruit trees have evolved. Why don't you go cook up some hamburger tatertot poison and let the people who actually care about there bodies be




No they don't.

Figs are medeteranian, Apples - Kazakhstan, Pears - Northern Europe, Peaches - China, goji berries - Asia, Plums are from the mountain area near the Caspian Sea and oranges come from South Asia.

"Asia" is a HUGE place and yes many fruits origionated in "Asia" but you would never have found foraging grounds rich enough in fruits to sustain life year round.

Keep feeding the machine though..  Your choice to eat all that fruit just to survive provides jobs to poor 12 year olds around the world who without you may not have the opportunity to work for pennies a day.


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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Andre Nickatina]
    #10786781 - 08/02/09 04:26 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Andre Nickatina said:
Quote:

dried fruit destroys vitamin c content




Is there any fact to this? I'm talking about sun-dried, i know Vit-c is easily oxidized but was under the assumption that sun drying preserved some if not all of the Vit-c content. Only mention of Vit-c loss I've heard is if using copper trays




Even sun drying will do it, I have dried grapes the 'proper' sun way hoping to keep some of the vitamin C, but sadly it is destroyed, I like grapes better anyway though, but those plants got sick and died and I don't eat fruit except in certain circumstances anyway.

You are lucky though, not sure of your genetic makeup but upwards of 40% of europeans have fructose malabsorption, and problems go from slight gas to horrid digestive disorders.

Just wanted to drop this quick comment before the family sits down to dinner, still have to read about the b12 thing.


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Re: Go Vegan [Re: GabbaDj]
    #10787011 - 08/02/09 05:02 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

GabbaDj said:

Keep feeding the machine though..  Your choice to eat all that fruit just to survive provides jobs to poor 12 year olds around the world who without you may not have the opportunity to work for pennies a day.




Says the person who eats processed food. Fortunate for me i get everything local, i actually know ever single farmer who grows my food. The only way to make a diet like mine work is with high quality fruit, so unless you grow it yourself or have a bangin farmers market don't even try it


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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Lennyk]
    #10787016 - 08/02/09 05:03 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Lennyk said:

Even sun drying will do it, I have dried grapes the 'proper' sun way hoping to keep some of the vitamin C, but sadly it is destroyed




How did you come to this conclusion?


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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Andre Nickatina]
    #10787239 - 08/02/09 05:41 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Has anybody besides me read the China Study or all these critics just basing their criticism on second hand shit?

Gabba, you are so lost in the details its absurd.  why are you arguing with the guy who eats nothing but fruit?  Argue with me.

These articles that the anti-vegan people are coming up with are all articles, none of them studies themselves.  Most of them pretty fuckin obscure. 

I on the other hand have posted study after study showing harmful effects of meat and dairy and you guys just ignore them and come back with either no sources of your own or second hand reviews of studies instead of studies. 

The fact is you want to believe the lie.  That's fine, eat it up with a fork and spoon.  Once again, enjoy your cancer and your diabetes and your heart disease.

I'll visit you in the hospital Gabba.  I'll take my bicycle out of the old folk's home at age 45 and swing by.  And while you're choking on chemotherapy and ice cream, I'll wash your bloated feet and say "I told you so."


--------------------
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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #10787349 - 08/02/09 05:56 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

This is part of a scathing review against the China Study:

"This observation was corroborated by a study published in "an obscure medical journal," that fed AF to two groups of rats, one consuming a 5 percent protein diet, one consuming a 20 percent protein diet, in which every rat in the latter group got liver cancer or its precursor lesions, and none in the former group got liver cancer or precursor lesions."

What the review does NOT tell you is that Campbell repeated the experiments and go the same results.  He then tried giving the rats on a low protein diet a higher dose of alfatoxins than the rats on the high protien diet and the rats on the high protein diet still got cancer and the low protien rats still did not.

He then went on to mice and hepititis B.  Hepititis B causes another kind of cancer, forget which...but he got very similar results.  Highly substantial like 80 percent.

He did it with both chemical and viral carcinogens.  That's when he went on to do the China Study, where he was able to link meat and meat byproducts to what he terms "diseases of affluence".  Diabetes, cancer, macular degeneration, neurological disorders, ostheoperosis, and others.  This study is no joke.  To dismiss it without reading it is, well, pretty damn lazy when you consider what's at stake.

Don't talk to me about quality of life Gabba while you treat cancer cavalierly.



"Campbell went on to investigate the possible relationship between nutritional factors, including protein, and cancer, a study that proceeded for 19 years with NIH funding.8 His conclusion was revolutionary and provocative: while chemical carcinogens may initiate the cancer process, dietary promoters and anti-promoters control the promotion of cancer foci,9 and it is nutritional factors, not chemical carcinogens, that are the ultimate deciding factors in the development of cancer."

http://www.westonaprice.org/bookreviews/chinastudy.html


--------------------
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“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)


Edited by Senor_Doobie (08/02/09 06:00 PM)


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Offlineeastuvdariver
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Re: Go Vegan [Re: GabbaDj]
    #10787611 - 08/02/09 06:32 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

GabbaDj said:
Quote:


Keep making a fool of yourself, more then half of the fruits i mentioned originated from china alone. You clearly have no idea about the history of fruit or how fruit trees have evolved. Why don't you go cook up some hamburger tatertot poison and let the people who actually care about there bodies be




No they don't.

Figs are medeteranian, Apples - Kazakhstan, Pears - Northern Europe, Peaches - China, goji berries - Asia, Plums are from the mountain area near the Caspian Sea and oranges come from South Asia.

"Asia" is a HUGE place and yes many fruits origionated in "Asia" but you would never have found foraging grounds rich enough in fruits to sustain life year round.

Keep feeding the machine though..  Your choice to eat all that fruit just to survive provides jobs to poor 12 year olds around the world who without you may not have the opportunity to work for pennies a day.





where they originated and where they exist are two different things.
aside from figs, all of the aformentioned foods have existed in china for a long time,thousands of years in some cases. your statement is almost as poorly informed as wiccan seekers claim that there is "no such thing as traditional soy consumption"


in all seriousness, you should all be happy to live in societies where you have enough wealth to choose what you eat, be it fruit, soy, or blue cheese-bacon-cheeseburger. and then your government will fund multi-million dollar studies to inform you that your dietary choices are wrong. most people in the world don't have that luxury.

"The people who told us about sun block were the same people who told us, when I was a kid, that eggs were good. So I ate a lot of eggs. Ten years later they said they were bad. I went, "Well, I just ate the eggs!" So I stopped eating eggs, and ten years later they said they were good again! Well, then I ate twice as many, and then they said they were bad. Well, now I'm really fucked! Then they said they're good, they're bad, they're good, the whites are good, th-the yellows - make up your mind! It's breakfast I've gotta eat!"--louis black


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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Andre Nickatina]
    #10787783 - 08/02/09 07:03 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Andre Nickatina said:
Quote:

Lennyk said:

Even sun drying will do it, I have dried grapes the 'proper' sun way hoping to keep some of the vitamin C, but sadly it is destroyed




How did you come to this conclusion?





I Read up on how it is easily oxidized, the vitamin C may not totally be destroyed, but it is to such a large degree (in the cases it isn't completely gone) you are much better off just eating it fresh.

I have not seen the effects of possibly using desiccant to see if that would help any. It would be a royal pain, but maybe it would keep it from becoming oxidized.

If anything, the sun would probably cause the most oxidation, as vitamin c is an antioxidant to help the plant protect itself against oxidative damage such as that from the sun.

I figure sun drying is done in hot dry weather with lots of sun, spelling more vitamin c destruction than in a dehydrator at a low temperature for a long period of time.


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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Lennyk]
    #10787922 - 08/02/09 07:34 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Lennyk said:
Quote:

Andre Nickatina said:
Quote:

Lennyk said:

Even sun drying will do it, I have dried grapes the 'proper' sun way hoping to keep some of the vitamin C, but sadly it is destroyed




How did you come to this conclusion?





I Read up on how it is easily oxidized, the vitamin C may not totally be destroyed, but it is to such a large degree (in the cases it isn't completely gone) you are much better off just eating it fresh.

I have not seen the effects of possibly using desiccant to see if that would help any. It would be a royal pain, but maybe it would keep it from becoming oxidized.

If anything, the sun would probably cause the most oxidation, as vitamin c is an antioxidant to help the plant protect itself against oxidative damage such as that from the sun.

I figure sun drying is done in hot dry weather with lots of sun, spelling more vitamin c destruction than in a dehydrator at a low temperature for a long period of time.




Your assumption is wrong, Vitamin C will not rapidly oxidize as you claim unless it comes in contact with steel, copper and other various metals. Furthermore the skin on the fruit should protect most of the vitamin C contained within the center of the fruit. They typically sun dry stuff at around 80-90 degrees, i don't think they even make dehydrators that set that low. I do agree with you tho that fresh is always best


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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Andre Nickatina]
    #10789399 - 08/02/09 11:33 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

do vegans eat fish?


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Re: Go Vegan [Re: AcidDropper420]
    #10790932 - 08/03/09 08:14 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

AcidDropper420 said:
do vegans eat fish?




Vegan means no animal products or By-products. Technically I'm not even vegan because I indulge in honey every so often


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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Andre Nickatina]
    #10793844 - 08/03/09 05:56 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Andre Nickatina said:
Quote:

AcidDropper420 said:
do vegans eat fish?




Vegan means no animal products or By-products. Technically I'm not even vegan because I indulge in honey every so often




Quote:

Andre Nickatina said:
Quote:

AcidDropper420 said:
do vegans eat fish?




Vegan means no animal products or By-products. Technically I'm not even vegan because I indulge in honey every so often




Vegans are an ideological people who even by their own admission rely on a vitamin supplement to support their own life style. 

I do however totally respect the values of true vegans.  I also have a problem with the ones who say that they do it for health reasons..

For every doctor who say it is right, there is a doctor who says it is wrong..  The subject has been a subject even more than global warming, which scientists and scholars and global leaders still can't make a real decision on...

Comparing vegans to fat, lazy, meat eating, gluttons for sure will give you an apples to oranges scenario. 

Comparing responsible meat eaters who work out, don't over indulge and have a responsible diet without excess to those who are vegan will give different results..  The jury is still out, no solid conclusion has yet been made.

When the day comes that a definitive answer is given and it's proven that being vegan is our modern day fountain of youth.  On that day, I will give up steak, and butter, and milk and all of what it is that vegans think is evil in the world.

Sadly, this day may never come in my lifetime because vegans and fruitarians are still the minority and the majority still live long and full lives, even the fountain of youth cure all that vegans claim they have  cannot dispute the fact that the oldest living people on the planet lived long and healthy on diets that included meat and meat products.

NOTHING can fight aging and my occasional hot fudge sundae and my intake of both fatty and lean meats will never stop it.  Nor will giving up animal products all together.  All I can do is live life to it's fullest and not deny myself of ANY of its pleasures. Try not to live life in some feeble attempt for longevity.  When our time comes, our time comes.

Everyone gets sick, everyone dies.  The majority of us no matter what lifestyle we lived, do it while we are old and forgotten.  Still, I hope to have my memories of being worry free and responsible and knowing that I have tasted all that life has to offer..  I would hate to die next to other meat eaters in the old folks home all the while thinking of all the pleasures I feebly denied myself.

This will be my last post in this thread so I will leave you with this bit of advice..

Life is too short, do everything in moderation and skip nothing.  Be responsible for yourself, you are the only one you have.


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Edited by GabbaDj (08/03/09 06:45 PM)


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OfflineAndre Nickatina
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Re: Go Vegan [Re: GabbaDj]
    #10794096 - 08/03/09 06:47 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Gabba as much as you would like you can't just say some thing and claim it as truth because you said.

Where are these vegans that admit they need vitamin supplements? I can assure you I don't need that bullshit

I'm sure you've met every person who has lived to old age and know the exact diet they followed.

Everyone certainly dies but not everyone gets sick, sorry but this is a myth perpetuated by western societies. You don't have to live your whole life being sick and whole fresh food nutrition is the key


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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Andre Nickatina]
    #10794589 - 08/03/09 08:14 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Gabba really really wants cancer.

Its obvious.  He hasn't addressed any of my posts and has now closed the door on the issue.  Meat is officially more important than a long, healthy, active life.

He assumes we are lying when we say we have never felt better.  He refuses even the possibility that we might be telling the truth.

He completely ignores the laundry list of research proving the harmful effects of his diet.  He has to afterall.  His livelihood is meat-based and he can't consider the possibility that he is poisoning his customers.

It's too scary.  Knowledge like that would cause him to have to reinvent himself.  He likes things the way they are.  Its not his fault he's been a fed a lie his whole life, but it is his fault for closing his mind to the truth.  We can only hope that he sees the error of his ways before its too late.

Until then, all I can say to everybody else is 'Don't Be a Gabba'.


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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #10796849 - 08/04/09 05:47 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Senor_Doobie said:

Until then, all I can say to everybody else is 'Don't Be a Gabba'.




^Pretty much sums it up


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