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Andre Nickatina
Smoov like water


Registered: 04/02/09
Posts: 190
Last seen: 13 years, 6 months
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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Lennyk]
#10785925 - 08/02/09 01:48 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Lennyk said:
Only if you believe saturated fat is bad (which it isn't and was wrongfully demonized in the mid 1900's), and people have been getting fatter and sicker sense.
Everything i mentioned contains saturated fat.
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The dairy and meat industry don't advertise nearly as much as the soy one, and they even do themselves a disservice by saying fat is bad and to only eat lean beef and nonfat dairy. Works for me fine though, the fatty cuts are cheaper as a result for me to buy.
Soy is just as bad as meat imo, its not even edible in its raw state.
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I have not been able to find this information about b12 being in raspberries. I sincerely doubt that unless the bacteria to produce b12 is present on it.
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Many nutritional analyses of foodstuffs were carried out such a long time ago, and, as such, have not taken account of more up-to-date technology in scientific procedures. For instance, Tesco's raspberries now state quite clearly that 100g of raspberries contain 30% of the recommended daily allowance of vitamin B12. This cannot be an isolated example of a plant food which contains B12! More likely, it is just one plant food of many which contain this vitamin. Indeed, according to Dr Vetrano, current books on nutrition in the U.S. have now stated that there is B12 in any food that contains quantities of the B vitamin complex, but previously they were just not able to assay the amounts. Nowadays, more modern technology has allowed them to discover that there is B12 in those foods rich in the B complex.
http://libaware.economads.com/b12issue.php very good article on b12
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Kids eat more than meat, more than cheese, all that white flour going into the bread and macaroni and so much sugar. That stuff is going to fatten you up, I know it did it to me before I changed my habits, stupid ritz crackers.
Again as you can see from my posts i think Rice, corn, starch, gluten, wheat, refined sugars and refined fats are all just as bad as meat (if not worse). Just because crackers, bread and pasta are bad for you doesn't all of a sudden make meat good
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From Dr. Ben Kim: "Another problem with a high fruit diet is that it can lead to problems involving the hormones that regulate your blood sugar; insulin, glucagon, and growth hormone. A chronic imbalance of these hormones is a sure way to develop cardiovascular disease and diabetes."
This is bullshit unless all you do is eat unripe hybridized seedless fruit all day, even then i doubt you would develop cardiovascular disease and diabetes lol. Maybe lose your teeth and suffer some deficiencies but nothing worse then what the average american goes thru
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Hunting, no need to raise them, just spear them. Fruits rot quickly, certain vegetables last longer (especially squash), but calorie density becomes an issue. Even if the fruit does not decay, the vitamins and minerals are lost the longer it is stored.
This is true but its still possible to store and sun dry stuff with little nutritional loss. The essenes lived off of dryed figs during the cold season. Like i stated humans are tropical primates, were supposed to live where trees fruit all year long
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The inuits did fine, and humans may not be designed to deal with snow, but they are not made for the dessert either. The difference is we adapt with technology faster than by our DNA.
We are probably one of the most adaptable animals on earth but this still does not change the fact we are designed to live naked in the tropics. The human body suffers negative effects when the temperature drops below 80 degrees
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Andre Nickatina
Smoov like water


Registered: 04/02/09
Posts: 190
Last seen: 13 years, 6 months
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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Lennyk]
#10785951 - 08/02/09 01:52 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Here is just one site that shows some of the problems of the china study in case anyone cared.
Tom Billings is a moron, i would take anything he says with a grain of salt.
http://ecologos.org/tb.htm
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GabbaDj
BTH



Registered: 04/08/01
Posts: 19,679
Loc: By The Lake
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Quote:
So now the meat eater is gonna tell me how fruits grow and work? LMAO. There is a fruit for every season, before industrialization fruit trees literally grew wild everywhere. You can still find many wild fruit trees in china including but not limited too, Figs, apples, pears, peaches, goji berries, plums, oranges. You don't need to farm anything, its called FORAGING look it up
Your kidding me right? NO two of those fruits are native to the same region of the world. Some may come from "Europe" or "Asia" but none are found anywhere near each other. Unless your "foraging" area covers several thousands of miles, your screwed. Same goes for vegetables and nuts and beans too.
Hell I have more fruit trees in my back yard then you could have ever found natively in the U.S. I have lemon, lime, orange, peach and plumb trees. In my garden Ive got 4 types of tomato, cucumber, zucchini, squash, green beans, sunflowers, strawberries, tons of herbs and Ive got another cutting garden with just flowers I like to put around the house.
Still with ALL that Ive got, it would take a ton of preserving and planning to be able to feed just myself and I would definitely need MUCH more space, It would take allot more effort and with little reward.
Its time that you look it up. I don't think you have any understanding about farming outside of finding everything you want at the grocery store whenever you want it.. Perhaps your efforts would be better spent fighting the waste involved with the world farming collective trying to keep our shelves full year round and the HUGE amount of oil and slave type labor it takes to bring them fruits you "live" on here to the U.S.
Some pics of the garden.

Wont be long before all of this is eaten and gone till next year. I do have an everbearing lemon tree but who wants to eat lemons all year?
-------------------- GabbaDj FAMM.ORG
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Andre Nickatina
Smoov like water


Registered: 04/02/09
Posts: 190
Last seen: 13 years, 6 months
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Re: Go Vegan [Re: GabbaDj]
#10786130 - 08/02/09 02:25 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
GabbaDj said:
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So now the meat eater is gonna tell me how fruits grow and work? LMAO. There is a fruit for every season, before industrialization fruit trees literally grew wild everywhere. You can still find many wild fruit trees in china including but not limited too, Figs, apples, pears, peaches, goji berries, plums, oranges. You don't need to farm anything, its called FORAGING look it up
Your kidding me right? NO two of those fruits are native to the same region of the world.
Keep making a fool of yourself, more then half of the fruits i mentioned originated from china alone. You clearly have no idea about the history of fruit or how fruit trees have evolved. Why don't you go cook up some hamburger tatertot poison and let the people who actually care about there bodies be
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Lennyk
D-O-L-E Dole


Registered: 04/22/08
Posts: 2,385
Loc: Near the Ground
Last seen: 12 years, 6 months
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Quote:
b]Andre Nickatina said:
Everything i mentioned contains saturated fat.
It is the percentage of other fats as well, since even vegetable oil has saturated fat in it, but it is polyunsaturated, which is easily oxidized and poison, as the essential fatty acids a minor, but important part of the diet.
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Soy is just as bad as meat imo, its not even edible in its raw state.
Agreed, just making the point that greater money flow is coming from soy, I disagree that soy is as bad as meat though.
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Many nutritional analyses of foodstuffs were carried out such a long time ago, and, as such, have not taken account of more up-to-date technology in scientific procedures. For instance, Tesco's raspberries now state quite clearly that 100g of raspberries contain 30% of the recommended daily allowance of vitamin B12. This cannot be an isolated example of a plant food which contains B12! More likely, it is just one plant food of many which contain this vitamin. Indeed, according to Dr Vetrano, current books on nutrition in the U.S. have now stated that there is B12 in any food that contains quantities of the B vitamin complex, but previously they were just not able to assay the amounts. Nowadays, more modern technology has allowed them to discover that there is B12 in those foods rich in the B complex.
http://libaware.economads.com/b12issue.php very good article on b12
I will look into that tonight, been trying to get all the yard work in between bought of rain, sounds interesting though, but I remain skeptical at the moment as b12 deficiency happens so I wonder if those are just analogs or what, but I will look into it.
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Again as you can see from my posts i think Rice, corn, starch, gluten, wheat, refined sugars and refined fats are all just as bad as meat (if not worse). Just because crackers, bread and pasta are bad for you doesn't all of a sudden make meat good
My post was about why you might feel like crap as a kid eating crap (as kids generally do), not because of the meat perhaps, but by the other stuff. You may be like me and have been eating gluten containing food for a long time only to realize a gluten problem too many years too late. ,
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This is bullshit unless all you do is eat unripe hybridized seedless fruit all day, even then i doubt you would develop cardiovascular disease and diabetes lol. Maybe lose your teeth and suffer some deficiencies but nothing worse then what the average american goes thru
Even fruit with seeds has been hybridized though, I am sure the fruit you eat is not how it was thousands of years ago.
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This is true but its still possible to store and sun dry stuff with little nutritional loss. The essenes lived off of dryed figs during the cold season. Like i stated humans are tropical primates, were supposed to live where trees fruit all year long
One would have to worry about scurvy, dried fruit destroys vitamin C content, however the indians with pemmican with fresh dried meat or the inuits with fresh meat would not suffer scurvy as fresh meat has stuff vitamin C turns into in the body already without a conversion taking place, or it is at least further up the chain, I forget.
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We are probably one of the most adaptable animals on earth but this still does not change the fact we are designed to live naked in the tropics. The human body suffers negative effects when the temperature drops below 80 degrees
Being warm blooded with a constant temperature, unless you are considering it a harmful stress on the body, I don't see how living in the cold is so bad.
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Andre Nickatina
Smoov like water


Registered: 04/02/09
Posts: 190
Last seen: 13 years, 6 months
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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Lennyk]
#10786222 - 08/02/09 02:47 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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dried fruit destroys vitamin c content
Is there any fact to this? I'm talking about sun-dried, i know Vit-c is easily oxidized but was under the assumption that sun drying preserved some if not all of the Vit-c content. Only mention of Vit-c loss I've heard is if using copper trays
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GabbaDj
BTH



Registered: 04/08/01
Posts: 19,679
Loc: By The Lake
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Quote:
Keep making a fool of yourself, more then half of the fruits i mentioned originated from china alone. You clearly have no idea about the history of fruit or how fruit trees have evolved. Why don't you go cook up some hamburger tatertot poison and let the people who actually care about there bodies be
No they don't.
Figs are medeteranian, Apples - Kazakhstan, Pears - Northern Europe, Peaches - China, goji berries - Asia, Plums are from the mountain area near the Caspian Sea and oranges come from South Asia.
"Asia" is a HUGE place and yes many fruits origionated in "Asia" but you would never have found foraging grounds rich enough in fruits to sustain life year round.
Keep feeding the machine though.. Your choice to eat all that fruit just to survive provides jobs to poor 12 year olds around the world who without you may not have the opportunity to work for pennies a day.
-------------------- GabbaDj FAMM.ORG
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Lennyk
D-O-L-E Dole


Registered: 04/22/08
Posts: 2,385
Loc: Near the Ground
Last seen: 12 years, 6 months
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Quote:
Andre Nickatina said:
Quote:
dried fruit destroys vitamin c content
Is there any fact to this? I'm talking about sun-dried, i know Vit-c is easily oxidized but was under the assumption that sun drying preserved some if not all of the Vit-c content. Only mention of Vit-c loss I've heard is if using copper trays
Even sun drying will do it, I have dried grapes the 'proper' sun way hoping to keep some of the vitamin C, but sadly it is destroyed, I like grapes better anyway though, but those plants got sick and died and I don't eat fruit except in certain circumstances anyway.
You are lucky though, not sure of your genetic makeup but upwards of 40% of europeans have fructose malabsorption, and problems go from slight gas to horrid digestive disorders.
Just wanted to drop this quick comment before the family sits down to dinner, still have to read about the b12 thing.
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Andre Nickatina
Smoov like water


Registered: 04/02/09
Posts: 190
Last seen: 13 years, 6 months
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Re: Go Vegan [Re: GabbaDj]
#10787011 - 08/02/09 05:02 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
GabbaDj said:
Keep feeding the machine though.. Your choice to eat all that fruit just to survive provides jobs to poor 12 year olds around the world who without you may not have the opportunity to work for pennies a day.
Says the person who eats processed food. Fortunate for me i get everything local, i actually know ever single farmer who grows my food. The only way to make a diet like mine work is with high quality fruit, so unless you grow it yourself or have a bangin farmers market don't even try it
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Andre Nickatina
Smoov like water


Registered: 04/02/09
Posts: 190
Last seen: 13 years, 6 months
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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Lennyk]
#10787016 - 08/02/09 05:03 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Lennyk said:
Even sun drying will do it, I have dried grapes the 'proper' sun way hoping to keep some of the vitamin C, but sadly it is destroyed
How did you come to this conclusion?
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Senor_Doobie
Snake Pit Champion



Registered: 08/11/99
Posts: 22,678
Loc: Trump Train
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Has anybody besides me read the China Study or all these critics just basing their criticism on second hand shit?
Gabba, you are so lost in the details its absurd. why are you arguing with the guy who eats nothing but fruit? Argue with me.
These articles that the anti-vegan people are coming up with are all articles, none of them studies themselves. Most of them pretty fuckin obscure.
I on the other hand have posted study after study showing harmful effects of meat and dairy and you guys just ignore them and come back with either no sources of your own or second hand reviews of studies instead of studies.
The fact is you want to believe the lie. That's fine, eat it up with a fork and spoon. Once again, enjoy your cancer and your diabetes and your heart disease.
I'll visit you in the hospital Gabba. I'll take my bicycle out of the old folk's home at age 45 and swing by. And while you're choking on chemotherapy and ice cream, I'll wash your bloated feet and say "I told you so."
-------------------- "America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat “Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.” -- Thomas Jefferson The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance. The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)
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Senor_Doobie
Snake Pit Champion



Registered: 08/11/99
Posts: 22,678
Loc: Trump Train
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This is part of a scathing review against the China Study:
"This observation was corroborated by a study published in "an obscure medical journal," that fed AF to two groups of rats, one consuming a 5 percent protein diet, one consuming a 20 percent protein diet, in which every rat in the latter group got liver cancer or its precursor lesions, and none in the former group got liver cancer or precursor lesions."
What the review does NOT tell you is that Campbell repeated the experiments and go the same results. He then tried giving the rats on a low protein diet a higher dose of alfatoxins than the rats on the high protien diet and the rats on the high protein diet still got cancer and the low protien rats still did not.
He then went on to mice and hepititis B. Hepititis B causes another kind of cancer, forget which...but he got very similar results. Highly substantial like 80 percent.
He did it with both chemical and viral carcinogens. That's when he went on to do the China Study, where he was able to link meat and meat byproducts to what he terms "diseases of affluence". Diabetes, cancer, macular degeneration, neurological disorders, ostheoperosis, and others. This study is no joke. To dismiss it without reading it is, well, pretty damn lazy when you consider what's at stake.
Don't talk to me about quality of life Gabba while you treat cancer cavalierly.
"Campbell went on to investigate the possible relationship between nutritional factors, including protein, and cancer, a study that proceeded for 19 years with NIH funding.8 His conclusion was revolutionary and provocative: while chemical carcinogens may initiate the cancer process, dietary promoters and anti-promoters control the promotion of cancer foci,9 and it is nutritional factors, not chemical carcinogens, that are the ultimate deciding factors in the development of cancer."
http://www.westonaprice.org/bookreviews/chinastudy.html
-------------------- "America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat “Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.” -- Thomas Jefferson The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance. The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)
Edited by Senor_Doobie (08/02/09 06:00 PM)
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eastuvdariver
Stranger thanwho?

Registered: 01/24/07
Posts: 201
Loc: birdhouse in your soul
Last seen: 14 years, 5 months
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Re: Go Vegan [Re: GabbaDj]
#10787611 - 08/02/09 06:32 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
GabbaDj said:
Quote:
Keep making a fool of yourself, more then half of the fruits i mentioned originated from china alone. You clearly have no idea about the history of fruit or how fruit trees have evolved. Why don't you go cook up some hamburger tatertot poison and let the people who actually care about there bodies be
No they don't.
Figs are medeteranian, Apples - Kazakhstan, Pears - Northern Europe, Peaches - China, goji berries - Asia, Plums are from the mountain area near the Caspian Sea and oranges come from South Asia.
"Asia" is a HUGE place and yes many fruits origionated in "Asia" but you would never have found foraging grounds rich enough in fruits to sustain life year round.
Keep feeding the machine though.. Your choice to eat all that fruit just to survive provides jobs to poor 12 year olds around the world who without you may not have the opportunity to work for pennies a day.
where they originated and where they exist are two different things. aside from figs, all of the aformentioned foods have existed in china for a long time,thousands of years in some cases. your statement is almost as poorly informed as wiccan seekers claim that there is "no such thing as traditional soy consumption"
in all seriousness, you should all be happy to live in societies where you have enough wealth to choose what you eat, be it fruit, soy, or blue cheese-bacon-cheeseburger. and then your government will fund multi-million dollar studies to inform you that your dietary choices are wrong. most people in the world don't have that luxury.
"The people who told us about sun block were the same people who told us, when I was a kid, that eggs were good. So I ate a lot of eggs. Ten years later they said they were bad. I went, "Well, I just ate the eggs!" So I stopped eating eggs, and ten years later they said they were good again! Well, then I ate twice as many, and then they said they were bad. Well, now I'm really fucked! Then they said they're good, they're bad, they're good, the whites are good, th-the yellows - make up your mind! It's breakfast I've gotta eat!"--louis black
-------------------- DISCLAIMER: anything posted by ME are strictly the opinions of ME and does not reflect the opinions of friends,family,affiliates,etc. of ME. the opinions of ME may not apply to you, it may not apply to ME next week or tommorow as the opinions of ME reserve the right to be changed at anytime.
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Lennyk
D-O-L-E Dole


Registered: 04/22/08
Posts: 2,385
Loc: Near the Ground
Last seen: 12 years, 6 months
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Quote:
Andre Nickatina said:
Quote:
Lennyk said:
Even sun drying will do it, I have dried grapes the 'proper' sun way hoping to keep some of the vitamin C, but sadly it is destroyed
How did you come to this conclusion?
I Read up on how it is easily oxidized, the vitamin C may not totally be destroyed, but it is to such a large degree (in the cases it isn't completely gone) you are much better off just eating it fresh.
I have not seen the effects of possibly using desiccant to see if that would help any. It would be a royal pain, but maybe it would keep it from becoming oxidized.
If anything, the sun would probably cause the most oxidation, as vitamin c is an antioxidant to help the plant protect itself against oxidative damage such as that from the sun.
I figure sun drying is done in hot dry weather with lots of sun, spelling more vitamin c destruction than in a dehydrator at a low temperature for a long period of time.
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Andre Nickatina
Smoov like water


Registered: 04/02/09
Posts: 190
Last seen: 13 years, 6 months
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Re: Go Vegan [Re: Lennyk]
#10787922 - 08/02/09 07:34 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Lennyk said:
Quote:
Andre Nickatina said:
Quote:
Lennyk said:
Even sun drying will do it, I have dried grapes the 'proper' sun way hoping to keep some of the vitamin C, but sadly it is destroyed
How did you come to this conclusion?
I Read up on how it is easily oxidized, the vitamin C may not totally be destroyed, but it is to such a large degree (in the cases it isn't completely gone) you are much better off just eating it fresh.
I have not seen the effects of possibly using desiccant to see if that would help any. It would be a royal pain, but maybe it would keep it from becoming oxidized.
If anything, the sun would probably cause the most oxidation, as vitamin c is an antioxidant to help the plant protect itself against oxidative damage such as that from the sun.
I figure sun drying is done in hot dry weather with lots of sun, spelling more vitamin c destruction than in a dehydrator at a low temperature for a long period of time.
Your assumption is wrong, Vitamin C will not rapidly oxidize as you claim unless it comes in contact with steel, copper and other various metals. Furthermore the skin on the fruit should protect most of the vitamin C contained within the center of the fruit. They typically sun dry stuff at around 80-90 degrees, i don't think they even make dehydrators that set that low. I do agree with you tho that fresh is always best
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AcidDropper420
I'm from Canada,eh?

Registered: 07/02/09
Posts: 3,356
Loc: British Columbia
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do vegans eat fish?
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Andre Nickatina
Smoov like water


Registered: 04/02/09
Posts: 190
Last seen: 13 years, 6 months
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Quote:
AcidDropper420 said: do vegans eat fish?
Vegan means no animal products or By-products. Technically I'm not even vegan because I indulge in honey every so often
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GabbaDj
BTH



Registered: 04/08/01
Posts: 19,679
Loc: By The Lake
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Quote:
Andre Nickatina said:
Quote:
AcidDropper420 said: do vegans eat fish?
Vegan means no animal products or By-products. Technically I'm not even vegan because I indulge in honey every so often
Quote:
Andre Nickatina said:
Quote:
AcidDropper420 said: do vegans eat fish?
Vegan means no animal products or By-products. Technically I'm not even vegan because I indulge in honey every so often
Vegans are an ideological people who even by their own admission rely on a vitamin supplement to support their own life style.
I do however totally respect the values of true vegans. I also have a problem with the ones who say that they do it for health reasons..
For every doctor who say it is right, there is a doctor who says it is wrong.. The subject has been a subject even more than global warming, which scientists and scholars and global leaders still can't make a real decision on...
Comparing vegans to fat, lazy, meat eating, gluttons for sure will give you an apples to oranges scenario.
Comparing responsible meat eaters who work out, don't over indulge and have a responsible diet without excess to those who are vegan will give different results.. The jury is still out, no solid conclusion has yet been made.
When the day comes that a definitive answer is given and it's proven that being vegan is our modern day fountain of youth. On that day, I will give up steak, and butter, and milk and all of what it is that vegans think is evil in the world.
Sadly, this day may never come in my lifetime because vegans and fruitarians are still the minority and the majority still live long and full lives, even the fountain of youth cure all that vegans claim they have cannot dispute the fact that the oldest living people on the planet lived long and healthy on diets that included meat and meat products.
NOTHING can fight aging and my occasional hot fudge sundae and my intake of both fatty and lean meats will never stop it. Nor will giving up animal products all together. All I can do is live life to it's fullest and not deny myself of ANY of its pleasures. Try not to live life in some feeble attempt for longevity. When our time comes, our time comes.
Everyone gets sick, everyone dies. The majority of us no matter what lifestyle we lived, do it while we are old and forgotten. Still, I hope to have my memories of being worry free and responsible and knowing that I have tasted all that life has to offer.. I would hate to die next to other meat eaters in the old folks home all the while thinking of all the pleasures I feebly denied myself.
This will be my last post in this thread so I will leave you with this bit of advice..
Life is too short, do everything in moderation and skip nothing. Be responsible for yourself, you are the only one you have.
-------------------- GabbaDj FAMM.ORG
Edited by GabbaDj (08/03/09 06:45 PM)
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Andre Nickatina
Smoov like water


Registered: 04/02/09
Posts: 190
Last seen: 13 years, 6 months
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Re: Go Vegan [Re: GabbaDj]
#10794096 - 08/03/09 06:47 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Gabba as much as you would like you can't just say some thing and claim it as truth because you said.
Where are these vegans that admit they need vitamin supplements? I can assure you I don't need that bullshit
I'm sure you've met every person who has lived to old age and know the exact diet they followed.
Everyone certainly dies but not everyone gets sick, sorry but this is a myth perpetuated by western societies. You don't have to live your whole life being sick and whole fresh food nutrition is the key
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Senor_Doobie
Snake Pit Champion



Registered: 08/11/99
Posts: 22,678
Loc: Trump Train
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Gabba really really wants cancer.
Its obvious. He hasn't addressed any of my posts and has now closed the door on the issue. Meat is officially more important than a long, healthy, active life.
He assumes we are lying when we say we have never felt better. He refuses even the possibility that we might be telling the truth.
He completely ignores the laundry list of research proving the harmful effects of his diet. He has to afterall. His livelihood is meat-based and he can't consider the possibility that he is poisoning his customers.
It's too scary. Knowledge like that would cause him to have to reinvent himself. He likes things the way they are. Its not his fault he's been a fed a lie his whole life, but it is his fault for closing his mind to the truth. We can only hope that he sees the error of his ways before its too late.
Until then, all I can say to everybody else is 'Don't Be a Gabba'.
-------------------- "America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat “Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.” -- Thomas Jefferson The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance. The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)
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