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helter_skelter
Hello Stranger



Registered: 06/23/08
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Fusion
#10446202 - 06/03/09 06:56 AM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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Anyone know of any good documentaries on fusion technology?
I've been watching history channel's The Universe and like the idea of fusion all the sudden.
i use to think that nuclear reactors created energy via fusion, but i only just realised fusion technology is only now beggining to be used for creating power.
A bathtub of water is enough to power a family home for 30 years!!!
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helter_skelter
Hello Stranger



Registered: 06/23/08
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give me some atom colliding documentaries aswell!!
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Annom
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trendal
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A bathtub of water is enough to power a family home for 30 years!!!
True...if you can get fusion to work.
I think that the energy requirements to produce fusion on Earth are just too great for fusion to work. The only reason it works in the cores of stars is because a star has something like a few billion billion billion tons of matter all crushing into it.
I think we are a long way off, still, to getting a fusion power plant to work.
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



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> I think that the energy requirements to produce fusion on Earth are just too great for fusion to work.
I think that the political requirements to produce fusion on Earth are just too great for fusion to work.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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antiPock
fighting entropy



Registered: 07/09/07
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Re: Fusion [Re: Seuss]
#10449252 - 06/03/09 06:16 PM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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Fusion is the holy grail of energy technology, and perhaps the only thing I can think of that is probably accessible in the relatively near future and could go a long way to solving our energy woes on this planet.
I am reminded of an example - Some 40 or more years ago, Philo Farnsworth (who is created the creation of the first electronic television) stopped most of his other work to focus on fusion, and we are not much further ahead today than we were in 1967. As an aside, Isaac Asimov was predicting climate change as a result of carbon emissions in the mid 1950s.
The point being, some visionaries have forseen the consequences of our means of obtaining energy long before most were aware there was even a problem. Instead, we are fed red-herring technologies by those who stand to gain financially - biofuels, (non-fusion) hydrogen powered cars, etc. These technologies are not going to solve our net energy problem, just move the emissions to other parts of the cycle.
Also, I think the cold fusion fiasco some years back really tainted the arena, and set it back when it was a more important area of study than ever. More recently there have been some promising results but essentially the horizon is still quite distant. As Seuss points out, we need some political will to attack this problem - study needs to be funded. I don't think this breakthrough is going to come in someone's garage.
For me fusion is the next logical step in our evolution, and we fail to cross the threshold at our own peril.
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mofo
Hobby Jingoist


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If you believe Bob Lazar, antimatter is where its at,. er where its going to be at.
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antiPock
fighting entropy



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Re: Fusion [Re: mofo]
#10449357 - 06/03/09 06:37 PM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
mofo said: If you believe Bob Lazar, antimatter is where its at,. er where its going to be at.
Unfortunately we don't have a lot of antimatter just lying around. Hydrogen however is the most abundant element in the universe, and even the subset of deuterium is more than adequate for our needs.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



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Quote:
Fusion is the holy grail of energy technology, and perhaps the only thing I can think of that is probably accessible in the relatively near future and could go a long way to solving our energy woes on this planet.
Exactly my point. It kills the energy market with cheap (or free), limitless, clean power. Good for we the people, but bad for we the energy producers. Considering that politicians work for we who have the most money to give, politicians will do everything they can to help energy producers stall fusion research.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
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Re: Fusion [Re: Seuss]
#10449570 - 06/03/09 07:19 PM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



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> 
Look at how much money governments have tossed at something like the international space station. It is almost impossible to get governments to throw a fraction of that money towards fusion research. What benefit do we get from the space station? What benefit would we get from cheap, clean, limitless power. There has to be a reason why governments are resistant to funding fusion research, and the only one I can think of is the lobbying efforts of those that stand to lose from advances in fusion power generation. If you have a less explanation, then I am all ears.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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antiPock
fighting entropy



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Re: Fusion [Re: Seuss]
#10449672 - 06/03/09 07:38 PM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said:
Quote:
Fusion is the holy grail of energy technology, and perhaps the only thing I can think of that is probably accessible in the relatively near future and could go a long way to solving our energy woes on this planet.
Exactly my point. It kills the energy market with cheap (or free), limitless, clean power. Good for we the people, but bad for we the energy producers. Considering that politicians work for we who have the most money to give, politicians will do everything they can to help energy producers stall fusion research.
Your cynicism on the matter saddens me greatly, because it rings so true and this is why I echoed your succinctly expressed concern. I honestly think the future of fusion energy affects the probability that we live long enough as a species to escape the planet self-sustainably for good.
At the very least, I'll go bat-shit crazy if a new red-herring technology comes to the fore, which it will of course. I am a fan of solar and a few other things on a small scale but that ain't gonna be enough, soon enough. Cynicism aside though, I dare to dream.
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Chespirito
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Re: Fusion [Re: Seuss]
#10449764 - 06/03/09 07:52 PM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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I don't buy this in general. Seems to be a common argument for many different scientific related things. First off the EU has invested billions in fusion research and is building a huge billion dollar complex devoted to fusion. Secondly universities have been doing research on fusion for decades. While it is true that they need more funding than they are getting, I am not convinced that throwing money at research groups is going to solve the problems they face. The DOE views cold fusion as not terribly promising and honestly its hard to deny that viewpoint That said there are plenty of research groups trying to get fusion up and running and I wish them luck.
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antiPock
fighting entropy



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Quote:
Chespirito said: I don't buy this in general. Seems to be a common argument for many different scientific related things. First off the EU has invested billions in fusion research and is building a huge billion dollar complex devoted to fusion. Secondly universities have been doing research on fusion for decades. While it is true that they need more funding than they are getting, I am not convinced that throwing money at research groups is going to solve the problems they face. The DOE views cold fusion as not terribly promising and honestly its hard to deny that viewpoint That said there are plenty of research groups trying to get fusion up and running and I wish them luck.
Point taken, but this is a nut that CAN be cracked and we need more than luck. Hydrogen the highest point on the binding energy curve, and we do live in a world of atomic matter. We can play a lot of zero-sum games, or just continue directly using dirty methods of obtaining energy, or perhaps alter the entire face of global commerce (millions, perhaps billions die as a result), but otherwise I have a hard time of imagining a more accessible solution to our growing planetary appetite than fusion.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



Registered: 04/27/01
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> First off the EU has invested billions in fusion research and is building a huge billion dollar complex devoted to fusion.
Wow, whole billions of dollars for technology that would rewrite the way humans live. How much has the EU invested in the LHC? (3 to 6 billion euros) How much has the ISS cost the world? (35 to 100 billion USD). How long did it take the EU/US/Japan to work out a plan for ITER? (24 years and counting- won't be ready until at least 2018) How much are the EU/US/Japan putting towards ITER? (less than 10 billion euro)
> Secondly universities have been doing research on fusion for decades
Unfortunately, universities lack the funds needed to do this type of research.
My is still shiny. I'd love for somebody to nuke my cynicism, but I see no indication that I am wrong...
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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Chespirito
Stranger


Registered: 02/13/09
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Re: Fusion [Re: Seuss]
#10450298 - 06/03/09 09:13 PM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said: Unfortunately, universities lack the funds needed to do this type of research.
http://www.psfc.mit.edu/index.html ; MIT
http://www-afrd.lbl.gov/afrd.html ; Cal
http://www.nuc.berkeley.edu/Fusion+Science+and+Technology
http://www.pppl.gov/ ; Princeton
http://w3fusion.ph.utexas.edu/ ; U of Texas
http://www.fusion.ucla.edu/ ; UCLA
http://plasma.wisc.edu/ ; Wisconsin-Madison
http://www.frc.gatech.edu/ Georgia Tech
Fusion has many problems, Im not sure you get that throwing money at research groups is not the magic bullet that gets things done. Hell the research group I worked for had too much money which they needed to spend to keep getting contracts from NSF. That said I'm sure the fusion researchers could use a lot more money but there are very large hurdles they need to overcome to make fusion a reality.
Edited by Chespirito (06/03/09 09:31 PM)
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Chespirito
Stranger


Registered: 02/13/09
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Some of those links don't seem to be working, just copy/paste them into your address bar and it should work fine.
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mofo
Hobby Jingoist


Registered: 04/05/08
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I actually believe nuclear fusion may well provide for our energy needs at some point, however, the cost of research and development is quite high at present time, and there are much cheaper alternatives, namely geothermal. Geothermal has a lot more potential than most people realize and could be developed at a fraction of the cost.
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: Fusion [Re: Seuss]
#10450516 - 06/03/09 09:49 PM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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Complaining about how some research programs get too much money and some get too little is one thing... But that in no way entails . You made the claim that lobbyists and politicians are unduly stifling fusion energy research. What evidence have you? I spent some a brief time with some folks doing internal confinement and heard no speak of conspiracy, only the normal gripes all researchers have about wanting more funding.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



Registered: 04/27/01
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> Im not sure you get that throwing money at research groups is not the magic bullet that gets things done.
Completely depends upon the type of research. I'm not sure you get that cutting edge nuclear based research is very expensive. I don't know what your background is, but I'm guessing that it is not nuclear physics. Just the computer systems we used to use were hundreds of millions of dollars.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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Chespirito
Stranger


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Re: Fusion [Re: Seuss]
#10450642 - 06/03/09 10:14 PM (14 years, 7 months ago) |
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They aren't at that stage yet man. They are still trying to achieve the fundamentals. My background is not in nuclear physics, though I have friends who are doing research into nuclear and particle physics. Ive linked you to a number of different research groups trying to explore fusion. Like most conspiracy theories that say that 'the government would never allow blah blah blah because big business wouldn't allow it' I view this as false
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antiPock
fighting entropy



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Personally I don't think conspiracy theory is part of the argument that forces may thwart the development of fusion as an energy source. To me it seems more like a product of natural selection in the marketplace, given the forces that are at work, and how they have been shown to work time and time again.
Once the genie is out of the bottle though, all bets are off and businesses with capital will rush in rapidly and try to secure permanent market share. Hell if the energy is cheap the profit margin can be sky high . . . .
Anyone remember SimCity3000? Once you got to year 2050, you could drop a clean fusion plant to power shit. I think we will need it much sooner than 2050.
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helter_skelter
Hello Stranger



Registered: 06/23/08
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Interesting stuff, thanx for everyones input, i'd put my 2 cents in, but i have nothing of value.
i just find the stuff interesting
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Chespirito
Stranger


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https://lasers.llnl.gov/programs/nif/
"Scientists have been working to achieve self-sustaining nuclear fusion and energy gain in the laboratory for more than half a century. When the National Ignition Facility (NIF) begins ignition experiments at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory (LLNL) in 2010, that long-sought goal will be much closer to realization.
NIF's 192 giant lasers, housed in a ten-story building the size of three football fields, will deliver at least 60 times more energy than any previous laser system. When all of its beams are fully operational, NIF will focus nearly two million joules of ultraviolet laser energy on a tiny target in the center of its target chamber – creating conditions similar to those that exist only in the cores of stars and giant planets and inside a nuclear weapon. The resulting fusion reaction will release many times more energy than the laser energy required to initiate the reaction."
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