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Offlineanevsky
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Using less than 100% colonized grain
    #10443730 - 06/02/09 07:24 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Hi all,

I've made some sawdust/woodchip bags and was planning to inoculate them tonight with grain spawn.  Up until today, I didn't even think of this issue - what am I risking by innoculating the woodchips with grain that is less than 100% colonized?  How much less?  Maybe 65-75% colonized.  Bags are alder/wheat germ, properly sterilized - good sterile procedure (flowhood, clean, etc...)

Ideas?
-a

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Offlineylibniquah
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Re: Using less than 100% colonized grain [Re: anevsky]
    #10443817 - 06/02/09 07:37 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

spawning with grain that isnt fully colonized is asking for trouble.

Use the search feature next time please. RR answered this question at least once in the past week, the post is prolly no father than the second page.

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Invisiblecurbstop
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Registered: 06/02/09
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Re: Using less than 100% colonized grain [Re: ylibniquah]
    #10443832 - 06/02/09 07:41 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

I keep seeing people write about this search engine. What is that and how come its not in the glossary


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Offlineylibniquah
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Re: Using less than 100% colonized grain [Re: curbstop]
    #10443857 - 06/02/09 07:46 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

are you serious?
you cant be serious.
if you are serious, then GTFO. If you dont even know what a search engine is, you don't need to be coming here, mucking up our forums with STOOOPID questions.


um, on second thought....

a search engine is a camera-like machine you strap to your jars to SEARCH for mycelium. google it.

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OfflineShape
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Re: Using less than 100% colonized grain [Re: ylibniquah]
    #10443970 - 06/02/09 08:04 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Ylibniquah no need for bashing instead explain how to solve his problem by explaining. Also only quoting RR and fallowing his path leaves less chance for other techs ideas and experience.

(Not saying his methods ideas or anything is wrong)

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Offlineanevsky
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Re: Using less than 100% colonized grain [Re: Shape]
    #10444029 - 06/02/09 08:16 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Hmm.. I'm not seeing anything so definitive as the above advice.  Here is a quote by RR from another thread:

"Second, don't use uncolonized grains in a bulk substrate. As said already, the grains will contaminate in the non-sterile bulk substrate."

I am not spawning to a non-sterile substrate, I am spawning to a sterile bag of sawdust which will be sealed after inoculation with an impulse sealer.  Second, I am using an outdoor strain which I should be able to spawn to unsterilized wood.  Finally, this grain was inoculated with agar so I am not talking about completely uncolonized grain - but simply grain that is covered with mycellium but not yet caked with it.  I should have made the last part more clear.

Ideas?
-a

Edited by anevsky (06/02/09 08:26 PM)

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Invisiblecurbstop
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Re: Using less than 100% colonized grain [Re: anevsky]
    #10444056 - 06/02/09 08:21 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Arent they all outdoor species????????????? not trying to be a smart ass but they all come from the great out doors. In all of my reading, it has pointed me to the conclusion that if its not 100% colonized then wait it out. You will be alot farther ahead in the long run


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Invisible200proofhonky
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Re: Using less than 100% colonized grain [Re: curbstop]
    #10444058 - 06/02/09 08:21 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

you should have a search thingy at the top right of your page, if you dont, go to search posts.

using uncolonized grain usually results in the uncolonized parts becoming contaminated...when they are colonized they are resistent to it.
Im not saying it cant be done but its best to wait til 100%.

GL:thumbup:

edit, saw your last post....are you doing this outdoors?
I cant be of much help but it would help others to know so they can help you.

regardless of species, if done indoors i dont think its wise to use spawn thats not 100%.


--------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
They try to take away everything God gave us,yet...
our money still says "In God We Trust".
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You take a mortal man and put him in control,
Watch him become a God,watch peoples heads a'roll.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you kill a man then your a murderer,kill many an your a conqueror, kill them all and your a God.

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Offlineanevsky
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Re: Using less than 100% colonized grain [Re: 200proofhonky]
    #10444100 - 06/02/09 08:32 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Shit, sorry I asked. Sometimes the level of discourse in here begins to approach zero. 

I know how to use the search.  Let's get some reasoning in here... I am doing a grain-to-wood transfer - I am exposing uncolonized wheat bran to the environment (granted, in laminar flow) even if I was using 100% colonized grain.  How about some explanations of what particular vectors of contamination I am opening up.

What is the difference between my mostly colonized rye and my completely uncolonized wheat bran in the bulk?

Yes, this will ultimately go outside.

-a

Edited by anevsky (06/02/09 08:41 PM)

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Offlineylibniquah
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Re: Using less than 100% colonized grain [Re: 200proofhonky]
    #10444184 - 06/02/09 08:45 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Shape: you can bite my bag. not my mycobag, either. I wasnt 'bashing' the OP, just the guy who acted like he didnt know how to earch. And, as much as trying new things may bring new teks, following established techniques (like ONLY using grains that have fully colonized) is the reason why any of us can come here and learn a working way to cultivate. The sterility of the substrate the OP is spawning to is inconsequential; the fact is that, even with a sterile sub, unless the spawn is 100% colonized, the uncolonized grains can become a contam vector. That isn't a differece in tek, that is a FACT. I happen to know from my very limited experience that it is a fact; i had a jar of rye that had water in the bottom (why, i dont know, it was made just exactly like my other five jars) and it had grains that never colonized. my other jars were done, so i spawnd all of them, even that one, and that one hasn't done shit, while i have 6 out of ten bags that will be done in a day or so and 2 already show pins.

You might not think the OPs method/ideas are wrong, but I do. if they aren't caked with myc on the outside, there are prolly uncolonized grains inside that he cant see.... in which case, what i said stands.

the difference is that you are hopefully sterilizing that bulk sub, if you add FULLY colonized grain to that, the myc has a head start to any contams. the bulk doesnt have as much nutes as the grain, so if the grain isnt colonized, the contams that are present in ANY sub, pastuearized/PC'ed or not, have a place to take hold. So, with any type of transfering of grain, weither to bulk or to more grainspawn, it needs to be 100%, unquestionably finished.

Edited by ylibniquah (06/02/09 08:56 PM)

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Offlineanevsky
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Re: Using less than 100% colonized grain [Re: ylibniquah]
    #10444649 - 06/02/09 10:12 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Done deal, bags made.  I will report back if they get contam'd.  If not, assume they weren't.  I simply don't buy any of the reasoning above.  If I was spawning to a pasteurized substrate which would be "in the world" (like a tray) - it makes perfect sense.  In my case it appeared to make no sense.

Finally, RR if you read this, your tyvek sleeve trick for bags is the absolute finest piece of advice I have ever read or seen on here.  Every time, the bags are literally sealed shut when they come out of the sterilizer.  Thanks so much for that.  I hated bags before this suggestion, now I prefer them immensely.  Nearly 20 bags of colonized or colonizing edibles.  Awesome stuff.

-a

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Offlineylibniquah
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Re: Using less than 100% colonized grain [Re: anevsky]
    #10444813 - 06/02/09 10:38 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

well, as i said, my experience is with bags, And i have all of my research to back me up. You must think that your (or anyone else's for that matter) sterile procedures produce PERFECT results, but I'm here to tell you that they don't. That bulk sub isnt perfectly sterile, and introducing uncolonized grain to it is giving what little bit of contams there are a foothold. It's not reasoning, it is fact.

But really, why should I care if your bags get contamed. You give RR props for his tek there but you apparently havent watched his videos or done much research, b/c he will tell you, introducing grain that isnt fully colonized is a bad idea.

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Offlineanevsky
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Re: Using less than 100% colonized grain [Re: ylibniquah]
    #10444880 - 06/02/09 10:48 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

I really do not know why you care so much either.  Maybe you should stop and figure it out?

-a

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Invisible200proofhonky
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Re: Using less than 100% colonized grain [Re: anevsky]
    #10448399 - 06/03/09 03:40 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

you also have 2 ask why it is that the grains are not 100% colonized, that usually means contam or incorrect moisture content, usually contam.
Either that or your in a hurry and dont wanna wait til they get 100%.


--------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
They try to take away everything God gave us,yet...
our money still says "In God We Trust".
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You take a mortal man and put him in control,
Watch him become a God,watch peoples heads a'roll.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you kill a man then your a murderer,kill many an your a conqueror, kill them all and your a God.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineanevsky
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Re: Using less than 100% colonized grain [Re: 200proofhonky]
    #10449421 - 06/03/09 06:50 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

FWIW: The grain wasn't 100% colonized because I didn't wait long enough.  I made the sawdust bags and only after pc'ing them did I realize that the less than 100% colonized grain could pose a problem.  Again, every grain was covered with mycelium, but had I waited another week it have become more dense.

-a

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Offlineveda_sticks
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Re: Using less than 100% colonized grain [Re: anevsky]
    #10449505 - 06/03/09 07:06 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

grains should be fully colinised before spawning. uncolinised grains will give contaminants something to grow on. The process of spawning them to bulk will allow atleast a small amount to land on the grians and then they grow easily and once established on the grain will spread to the bulk.


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Using less than 100% colonized grain [Re: anevsky]
    #10450801 - 06/03/09 10:42 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

I know what you're saying: That sterile substrate should be OK with partially colonized grains.  However, the facts are different.  When you spawn, you pour the grains into the substrate bag, and during the pouring they're susceptible to whatever might get on them.  The wheat bran in the bag is much more protected.

As an experiment, a few years ago, I tried a series of grain to grain transfers with not yet fully colonized grain masters, and the success rate was just over 50 percent, and that was using a laminar flow hood.  By waiting for full colonization, the success rate is 100%.  That's why I suggest waiting for full colonization.

You guys need to tone down the rhetoric in here.  Don't flame someone for asking a question.
RR


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Offlineanevsky
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Re: Using less than 100% colonized grain [Re: veda_sticks]
    #10450822 - 06/03/09 10:47 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

When pretty much everyone agrees that you are wrong, you are indeed, likely.. wrong.  I stand corrected.  Well, I'll hope for good luck.  I'll also update this thread.

Thanks, RR, for checking this out.

-a

Edited by anevsky (06/03/09 10:52 PM)

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Offlineanevsky
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Re: Using less than 100% colonized grain [Re: anevsky]
    #10594409 - 06/29/09 08:44 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

I just wanted to update this thread.  The bags came out perfectly fine.  Not that I would recommend doing what I did.  I certainly do not.

At the time, it seemed like all the work I had done on my 5 enriched sawdust bags made the risk worth it.  That was horrible judgment.  The spawn came from a print through three generations of agar and into rye.  So, compared to the time it took to make the bags - those five quarts of rye took about 100x as much time.  So, if you find yourself in the same situation - just wait. Don't risk it.

-a

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