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OfflineAnonymousRabbit
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. [Re: zen buddy]
    #10446669 - 06/03/09 10:04 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

.


--------------------
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Edited by AnonymousRabbit (05/19/22 12:59 AM)

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Is it "cowardly," wrong ethically, or wrong according to the bible to kill an abortion provider? [Re: zouden]
    #10451951 - 06/04/09 02:31 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Well could you give examples then cuz I don't know what your referring to. 



The whole point is that I don't understand the statements of anti abortion activists.  It makes no sense to say their position is contradictory if you don't accept as a premise their actuall positions, so I've tried to do so.


It seems to me like folks don't think killing an abortion doctor is acceptable or don't think it is the murder of a person to preform an abortion and reject the premises of the thread to get the result they want.


Since you've not referred to specifics I have no idea what your actually referring to, but as I said previously I have no problem with people discussing things from other perspectives so long as they clearly identify they are doing that.  When you make a comment that seems impossible to reach, provide no reasoning consistant with the premises of the thread, it is hard to tell whether your moral views are hihgly unique or if you just have rejected the premises of the thread.


Quote:


Who are you trying to fool? You want us to address the morality of the issue "under the stated premise". What exactly are you looking for? Seems to me like you want to dismiss any point that does not agree with yours.





Yes, of course I want you to dismiss any premise that doesn't agree with the question- its like being surprised someone asked what 1+1= and getting confused responses when you say 2+3=....  It wasn't what was asked.


If you don't want to address the question then dont, but don't reject the premises and try to answer the question anyway- for example its difficult to conclude the act was justified if you don't believe abortion is the murder of a person.  Since that is a premise of the thread and it seems an accurate representation of the antiabortion crowd in many cases, I don't see how this is an unreasonable premise.


It feels like you think I'm using this to defend the act or something and therefore refuse to answer the question asked.



Quote:

zouden said:
It's only justifiable if you think that abortion is wrongful killing. Many people, including the state of Kansas, do not. In that case, what the guy did was shoot a man for doing his job.






Right, which I think is what a lot of people think.  And since I wanted to examine the condemnation of the groups opposed to abortion and see if their statements are consistant with their ideology, doesn't it make sense to analyze the statements from the perspective of their beliefs?


I don't see how the fact he is doing his job is relevant.  It wasn't a duty he had, certainly, and other than that I see no possible relevance.


But in any case, do you agree that the act was justified if you accept that abortion is the wrongful killing of people?  It seems like you may from your post.

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Offlinezouden
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Re: Is it "cowardly," wrong ethically, or wrong according to the bible to kill an abortion provider? [Re: johnm214]
    #10452146 - 06/04/09 04:36 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

But in any case, do you agree that the act was justified if you accept that abortion is the wrongful killing of people?  It seems like you may from your post.




Yes... to some extent. I can see how it can be justified like that, but I believe that that kind of justification is morally and logically weak.

Think about it like this: not all anti-abortion groups agree that killing the doctor was the right thing to do. In fact I'd say most condemn such acts, and it's only the fringe militant groups that support such vigilantism. This tells me that killing doctors is not the only way to stop abortion (otherwise all anti-abortion groups would advocate killing doctors).


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Is it "cowardly," wrong ethically, or wrong according to the bible to kill an abortion provider? [Re: zouden]
    #10452328 - 06/04/09 06:29 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Yes, but I'm not saying its a good thing to do or particularly productive, I'm saying it was not wrong by what they likely believe about morality and abortion.

Of course it draws negtive attention to their movement and it would be disasterous for a group to publicly support such action, but that's a sepperate question than whether it is wrong to kill the doctor.



I think they just denounce it for public relations reasons and don't really think about it too much.  I think it possibly reveals a tiered thinking about life- do they recognize a fetus as perhaps not being a moral person of the same type as a regular person?  I can understand people saying abortion is wrong because we don't know when a person becomes present, but they claim that abortion is outright murder, soemthing quite different.


I think this reveals they either secretly treat fetuses as different then they claim or that they have a discoherent moral philosophy.

Contrary to what Mr. Mushrooms says, it seems quite clear that almost all christian denominations accept killing to prevent murder, and i've never known anyone who didn't accept such.  I think they need to get their talking points in line with their positions.  The catholics, which may have more formal teachings than other christian churchs, certainly accept defensive killing.

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Offlinezouden
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Re: Is it "cowardly," wrong ethically, or wrong according to the bible to kill an abortion provider? [Re: johnm214]
    #10452346 - 06/04/09 06:42 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

>I think this reveals they either secretly treat fetuses as different then they claim or that they have a discoherent moral philosophy.

Yes, I think you're absolutely correct. Great thread by the way! :smile2:


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Is it "cowardly," wrong ethically, or wrong according to the bible to kill an abortion provider? [Re: johnm214]
    #10452427 - 06/04/09 07:30 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:

Quote:


Who are you trying to fool? You want us to address the morality of the issue "under the stated premise". What exactly are you looking for? Seems to me like you want to dismiss any point that does not agree with yours.





Yes, of course I want you to dismiss any premise that doesn't agree with the question- its like being surprised someone asked what 1+1= and getting confused responses when you say 2+3=....  It wasn't what was asked.


If you don't want to address the question then dont, but don't reject the premises and try to answer the question anyway- for example its difficult to conclude the act was justified if you don't believe abortion is the murder of a person.  Since that is a premise of the thread and it seems an accurate representation of the antiabortion crowd in many cases, I don't see how this is an unreasonable premise.


It feels like you think I'm using this to defend the act or something and therefore refuse to answer the question asked.






I thought so!

Maybe you should read my response again (my first response) then maybe you'll realize that I do agree that abortion is murder. It's just that I am able to understand the big picture.

Maybe you shouldn't jump to conclusions?

I have for a very long time believed that abortion is not only wrong but murder.

I answered your question and if you ask me my answer was a damn good one.

Are you suggesting that anyone who thinks that abortion is murder would agree with you?

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Re: Is it "cowardly," wrong ethically, or wrong according to the bible to kill an abortion provider? [Re: zen buddy]
    #10452489 - 06/04/09 07:58 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

No, read the question.  I'm saying that anyone who accepts the premises would seem to believe the killing of the doc was not wrong or would beleive some uncommon things about morality and the world.


It just seems like you didn't like the result and so rejected the premises so you could get the result you want.

Quote:

If you believe that killing a fetus is wrong then you must also believe that killing a human is also wrong.





That wasn't the premise.  The premise was that abortion was the killing of a person.  As discussed with another poster, the manner in which late term abortions are preformed seems to be an intentional killing- it is not just the removal of a fetus, it is the killing of it, generally before the fetus is even removed, when alternatives are available.  It is not that killing a fetus is wrong, it is that the intentional killing is murder, when their is no excuse.  The premise is not that killing is wrong, obviously, as the answer I urge contemplates the acceptability of killing in defense of murder.  I feel the majority of people and christian religions and christians also believe in this, and this is one of the things I refer to when i say I think if you reach another result than I that you're believing some uncommon things about morality.


And I don't think abortion can be said to be wrongful killing, either.  That's just the premise of the question.  Like I said, I think people are opposed to the result or the premises and strain to get the result they like, even if it means ignoring the question and yet purporting to answer it.  It seems you presume I agree that abortion is murder or that the aborted fetus is a person (I don't) and that I think the killing of the doctor was justified thereby (I don't).  As explained previously, the question takes the premises I think apply to many abortion opponents and examines whether their condemnation of the killing of the doctor (saying it was wrong and immoral to kill him) makes any sense


.  As i said to zouden, it may well reveal they don't even believe the crap they say, since I bet these same folks would support the sniper killing the person executing hostages and yet don't feel the aborting of fetuses is of the same moral charecter as the hostage being executed- even though they claim everything after fertilization is a full moral person.  I think the abortion opponents need to develop a coherent justification for this discord or simply urge the more logical position that the fertilized egg onward should be treated as a person as it can't be excluded as a possiblity.

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Re: Is it "cowardly," wrong ethically, or wrong according to the bible to kill an abortion provider? [Re: johnm214]
    #10452639 - 06/04/09 08:46 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:


Contrary to what Mr. Mushrooms says, it seems quite clear that almost all christian denominations accept killing to prevent murder, and i've never known anyone who didn't accept such.  I think they need to get their talking points in line with their positions.  The catholics, which may have more formal teachings than other christian churchs, certainly accept defensive killing.




You have stated a claim without evidence.  Evidently, Roman Catholics accept defensive killing.  I know of no other denominations that do in instances like these.  And if they do that belief doesn't line up with scripture.


--------------------

Edited by Mr. Mushrooms (06/04/09 08:57 AM)

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Re: Is it "cowardly," wrong ethically, or wrong according to the bible to kill an abortion provider? [Re: johnm214]
    #10452646 - 06/04/09 08:49 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

So you believe that abortion is the same as killing a person. Then you suggest that killing a person is wrong and a solution to this problem would be to kill a person. Do you not understand how hypocritical this is?

I believe that abortion is murder but I also believe that murder is wrong therefore killing the person who you perceive to be a murderer is also wrong.

I don't see the point in having a discussion if you only want to discuss with people who completely agree with you. You might as well sit in a room alone and talk to yourself.

Edited by zen buddy (06/04/09 09:07 AM)

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Re: Is it "cowardly," wrong ethically, or wrong according to the bible to kill an abortion provider? [Re: zen buddy]
    #10452673 - 06/04/09 08:58 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

zen buddy said:
So you believe that abortion is the same as killing a person. Then you suggest that killing a person is wrong and a solution to this problem would be to kill a person. Do not understand how hypocritical this is?

I believe that abortion is murder but I also believe that murder is wrong therefore killing the person who you perceive to be a murderer is also wrong.

I don't see the point in having a discussion if you only want to discuss with people who completely agree with you. You might as well sit in a room alone and talked yourself.




That's correct.  If one is consistently Pro-life they will condemn this murder, and most Pro-lifers do.


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Re: Is it "cowardly," wrong ethically, or wrong according to the bible to kill an abortion provider? [Re: johnm214]
    #10452675 - 06/04/09 08:59 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:

And I don't think abortion can be said to be wrongful killing, either.  That's just the premise of the question.  Like I said, I think people are opposed to the result or the premises and strain to get the result they like, even if it means ignoring the question and yet purporting to answer it.  It seems you presume I agree that abortion is murder or that the aborted fetus is a person (I don't) and that I think the killing of the doctor was justified thereby (I don't).  As explained previously, the question takes the premises I think apply to many abortion opponents and examines whether their condemnation of the killing of the doctor (saying it was wrong and immoral to kill him) makes any sense






Sorry if I'm more than a little confused but you don't think the killing of the doctor was justified but you don't think that saying that the killing of the doctor was wrong or immoral makes any sense.

If you don't think the killing of the doctor was wrong or immoral then you must believe the killing of the doctor was right and moral but you do not believe that killing the doctor was justified.

Please explain...

Edited by zen buddy (06/04/09 09:21 AM)

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Re: Is it "cowardly," wrong ethically, or wrong according to the bible to kill an abortion provider? [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #10452701 - 06/04/09 09:09 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Wasn't it the protestants that specifically recognized the distinction in their translation of the commandments as "thou shalt not murder" rather than "thou shalt not kill" as I previously mentioned?  That seems  a pretty clear statement of their acceptance of a distinction between murder and defensive killing. (though I never got why the follow the ten commandments anyways- is it an acceptance of the law being god's law and not moses's?)

I'm not familiar with the way to look up formal teachings of the many denominations, but you as well as I can find the books and teachings of folks that comport with my suggestion that christians recognize killing to prevent wrongful killing as acceptable.  I'm unable to find if there are formal teachings by the churches themselves except for the catholics and the "thou shalt not murder" translation that many use.

And doesn't Luke seem to say Jesus told his followers to carry a sword?  What is the use of this?  I don't wnat to get into the bible cuz it can be used to justify many things and is contradictory, but this one is interesting:

Quote:

Luke 22:36 KJV Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. 37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end. 38 And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.





Here's two more positions, including the catholic ones that seem to support my view quite clearly:

Catechisms of the Catholic Church:

Quote:

2263 The legitimate defense of persons and societies is not an exception to the prohibition against the murder of the innocent that constitutes intentional killing. "The act of self-defense can have a double effect: the preservation of one's own life; and the killing of the aggressor.... The one is intended, the other is not."[65]

2264 Love toward oneself remains a fundamental principle of morality. Therefore it is legitimate to insist on respect for one's own right to life. Someone who defends his life is not guilty of murder even if he is forced to deal his aggressor a lethal blow:
If a man in self-defense uses more than necessary violence, it will be unlawful: whereas if he repels force with moderation, his defense will be lawful.... Nor is it necessary for salvation that a man omit the act of moderate self-defense to avoid killing the other man, since one is bound to take more care of one's own life than of another's.[65]

2265 Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for someone responsible for another's life. Preserving the common good requires rendering the unjust aggressor unable to inflict harm. To this end, those holding legitimate authority have the right to repel by armed force aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their charge.[66]




-----

Quote:

The American law of self-defense, as a general rule, requires that a defender who kills show that she reasonably feared that she was in imminent threat of serious bodily injury or death. This rule embodies two important understandings consonant with Christian views of human nature and violence. One is implicit in the requirement that the defender "reasonably" fear for her life before she is justified in killing: the law recognizes how we humans tend to see what we want to see - the self-centered and self-justifying will can easily distort even the "facts" of a situation, our sense of personal danger, the way we interpret others around us as threats.

[2] Second, the law requires that the killer make a "reasonable choice to kill," that is, that she have no alternative (such as escaping or calling for help) because the threat is imminent, and that killing is a proportional response to the threat which she faces. The law of self-defense thus says, "you must choose life" if you possibly can do so without risking death or serious injury....
...
The Christian call for force (at best) as a last resort and, in Lutheran tradition, only to protect others, is no pie-in-the-sky idealism. It is the means for forcing us to give up our illusion and face the ironic reality of life in this world: that overcaution and violence share the same mistake: the more we try to trust in ourselves and our own clever devices for our security, refusing to name and to trust the real ground of our existence, the more terrorists we will see.





Evangelical Lutheran Churches of America
  http://www.elca.org/What-We-Believe/Social-Issues/Journal-of-Lutheran-Ethics/Issues/September-2001/Self-Defense.aspx


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Re: Is it "cowardly," wrong ethically, or wrong according to the bible to kill an abortion provider? [Re: johnm214]
    #10452722 - 06/04/09 09:15 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:


It just seems like you didn't like the result and so rejected the premises so you could get the result you want.






My beliefs concerning this issue have absolutely nothing to do with how you like to word your question.

I cannot change how I understand this issue in order to align myself with how you understand this issue.

My beliefs are what they are and are very relevant to this thread whether or not you want to accept my beliefs as relevant.

I do not understand why you would want to force a certain response from people. Ask a question and accept the answers that you get. You may be able to control what you yourself has to say but you have no control over what others have to say.

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Re: Is it "cowardly," wrong ethically, or wrong according to the bible to kill an abortion provider? [Re: zen buddy]
    #10452727 - 06/04/09 09:18 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

zen buddy said:





Sorry if I'm more than a little confused but you don't think the killing of the doctor was justified but you don't think that saying that the killing of the doctor was wrong or moral makes any sense.





I don't think killing the doctor was justified and I don't think that the condmenation of the killing by antiabortion groups is consistent with their beliefs (which I've included as the premises of the question- so long as they accept defensive killing).  If you accept the fetus is a person and that it is acceptable to kill in defense of hte wrongful killing of a person then I don't see how you can say the killing of the doctor was wrong- I think its either inconsistent or reveals that these folks don't really believe the fetus is necessarily a full moral person.


Quote:



If you don't think the killing of the doctor was wrong or immoral then you must believe the killing of the doctor was right and moral but you do not believe that killing the doctor was justified.

Please explain...





Your confusion lies in believing I accept the premises of the question- I don't.  i think they are wrong and demonstrably incorrect.  People don't form at fertilization, and its unclear when they do, therefore it cannot be known to be wrong to abort fetuses and the killing of the doctor cannot be legitimate defense of those "people" (the fetuses).

Under the premises of hte question, yes, I believe the killing of the doctor was justified.  I don't, however, feel the premises are true or that the docotor's killing was justified.  I believe the antiabortion groups are either deeply inconsistant or they secretly don't really believe that a person is neccesarily present from conception on.  The only other option is they believe all killing is wrong, which I find highly unlikely given it is a very rare belief so far as i can see.

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Re: Is it "cowardly," wrong ethically, or wrong according to the bible to kill an abortion provider? [Re: johnm214]
    #10452747 - 06/04/09 09:27 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
Quote:

zen buddy said:





Sorry if I'm more than a little confused but you don't think the killing of the doctor was justified but you don't think that saying that the killing of the doctor was wrong or moral makes any sense.





I don't think killing the doctor was justified and I don't think that the condmenation of the killing by antiabortion groups is consistent with their beliefs (which I've included as the premises of the question- so long as they accept defensive killing).  If you accept the fetus is a person and that it is acceptable to kill in defense of hte wrongful killing of a person then I don't see how you can say the killing of the doctor was wrong- I think its either inconsistent or reveals that these folks don't really believe the fetus is necessarily a full moral person.


Quote:



If you don't think the killing of the doctor was wrong or immoral then you must believe the killing of the doctor was right and moral but you do not believe that killing the doctor was justified.

Please explain...





Your confusion lies in believing I accept the premises of the question- I don't.  i think they are wrong and demonstrably incorrect.  People don't form at fertilization, and its unclear when they do, therefore it cannot be known to be wrong to abort fetuses and the killing of the doctor cannot be legitimate defense of those "people" (the fetuses).

Under the premises of hte question, yes, I believe the killing of the doctor was justified.  I don't, however, feel the premises are true or that the docotor's killing was justified.  I believe the antiabortion groups are either deeply inconsistant or they secretly don't really believe that a person is neccesarily present from conception on.  The only other option is they believe all killing is wrong, which I find highly unlikely given it is a very rare belief so far as i can see.




You should read my first response again, slowly. Then try to accept my response as a rational explanation.

Maybe you misunderstand their beliefs as you misunderstand mine.

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Re: Is it "cowardly," wrong ethically, or wrong according to the bible to kill an abortion provider? [Re: zen buddy]
    #10452754 - 06/04/09 09:30 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

I'm sure that most people get confused when they try to understand how a fetus could be a person. That is not how I understand it. As far as I'm concerned a fetus is a life and for you to end life in such a way it is no different than killing a person.

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Re: Is it "cowardly," wrong ethically, or wrong according to the bible to kill an abortion provider? [Re: zen buddy]
    #10452765 - 06/04/09 09:35 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

I've reread it, and my opinion remains the same.


You address punishment when that was not relevant.  The only justification proferred was the defense of a person's life that would otherwise be wrongfully taken.  Has nothing to do with punishment.



You say that you yourself become a murderer (a wrongful killer) if you kill the doctor but offer no explanation so that, as i said previously, it only makes sense that you either a) believe somewhat unique moral tenants (that defensive killing is wrong, for example) or; b) you reject the premises that abortion is killing a person wrongfully.  You've not stated a) is the case, so I don't know what your saying.  Maybe your conflating murder and kill despite the original post distinguishing between them, I don't know.



It seems you either have decided I was arguing death was an appropriate punishment and it is acceptable on that ground (which I've not said and disclaim) or you make no distinction between defensive and nondefensive killing.


Your remaining post talks about efficacy and logic which I don't understand the relevance of at all.  We are discussing whether it is wrong to kill the doctor under the premises, not whether it is the best solution or is good, so I don't know what the existance of a dispute over the best solution has to do with anything, and I don't find clarification in your post.



Feel free to point out where I'm confused.

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Re: Is it "cowardly," wrong ethically, or wrong according to the bible to kill an abortion provider? [Re: zen buddy]
    #10452826 - 06/04/09 09:57 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

I give up.

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Re: Is it "cowardly," wrong ethically, or wrong according to the bible to kill an abortion provider? [Re: johnm214]
    #10454107 - 06/04/09 01:56 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
Wasn't it the protestants that specifically recognized the distinction in their translation of the commandments as "thou shalt not murder" rather than "thou shalt not kill" as I previously mentioned? 




That is a claim that needs evidence as well.  Aside from which it is a Red Herring and has no place in the argument.


Quote:

johnm214 said:
That seems  a pretty clear statement of their acceptance of a distinction between murder and defensive killing. (though I never got why the follow the ten commandments anyways- is it an acceptance of the law being god's law and not moses's?)




Defensive killing has absolutely nothing to do with this argument unless somehow a baby managed to strangle Tiller as he was aborting it.

Quote:

johnm214 said:
I'm not familiar with the way to look up formal teachings of the many denominations, but you as well as I can find the books and teachings of folks that comport with my suggestion that christians recognize killing to prevent wrongful killing as acceptable.  I'm unable to find if there are formal teachings by the churches themselves except for the catholics and the "thou shalt not murder" translation that many use.




More claims without evidence.  In baseball that would be a .000% average.

Quote:

johnm214 said:
And doesn't Luke seem to say Jesus told his followers to carry a sword?  What is the use of this?  I don't wnat to get into the bible cuz it can be used to justify many things and is contradictory, but this one is interesting:

Quote:

Luke 22:36 KJV Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. 37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end. 38 And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.







That was prior to the Christian era.  Jesus had not died nor was resurrected.  No epistle written to Christians condones killing, even in self-defense. If any group of believers would sanction the murder of Tiller it would be ALL OVER the Internet. It isn't.

Quote:

johnm214 said:
Here's two more positions <snip> -




And all are self-defense which is a side issue.

All you have to do to back up your claim is find a group of believers, i.e. a denomination, that approves of Tiller's murder.  You can't, and for a very good reason.


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Registered: 05/25/08
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Re: Is it "cowardly," wrong ethically, or wrong according to the bible to kill an abortion provider? [Re: zen buddy]
    #10454115 - 06/04/09 01:57 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

zen buddy said:
I give up.





I don't give up but I do rest my case.


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