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Offlinesupernovasky
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Re: Is it "cowardly," wrong ethically, or wrong according to the bible to kill an abortion provider? [Re: johnm214]
    #10440426 - 06/02/09 11:47 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

It doesn't really matter whether or not the killer was justified in his own head. All of us can create justifications for hundreds of things in our own head. The declaration of right or wrong, ethical or unethical, murder or justified killing, is not his to make. These are social constructs that we adopt and modify inside of our own minds. Whether or not he believed he was acting in an ethical, moral fashion, society would disagree. In our society, we are punishing him because what he did was unethical. It violated the man's rights and used his life as a means to an end. There are legitimate avenues for pursuing a way to stop this guy from doing what he was doing that did NOT involve a violation of his rights. Yes, he would have been able to kill more people, but it is wrong to view oneself as judge, juror, and executioner when ones own mind may not be sound enough to act on ANY of those levels. This is why the justice system exists... it provides vengeance with structure, protecting society from its criminals, but it also provides mercy with structure... protecting its criminals from society. What this man did was wrong and unethical by declaring himself the judge of whether this man was right or wrong.


If this is unacceptable, here is another angle to view it from the Christian perspective (not my perspective in the slightest and I have violated my own rules by doing this):

Leviticus 19:18 You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord.

Deuteronomy 32:35 Vengeance is Mine, and recompense;
Their foot shall slip in due time;
For the day of their calamity is at hand,
And the things to come hasten upon them.

Deuteronomy 32:43 Rejoice, O Gentiles, with His people;
For He will avenge the blood of His servants,
And render vengeance to His adversaries;
He will provide atonement for His land and His people.

Psalm 94:1 O Lord God, to whom vengeance belongs–
O God, to whom vengeance belongs, shine forth!

Romans 12:19 Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, Vengeance is Mine, I will repay, says the Lord.

Hebrews 10:30 For we know Him who said, Vengeance is Mine, I will repay, says the Lord. And again, The Lord will judge His people.

“Judge not lest you be judged.” (Matthew 7:1)

As far as the act possibly decreasing the number of abortions, this will not be the case. In fact, many pro-lifers hate what this guy did because it hurts THEIR legitimacy as a political entity. He may have directly stopped this one doctor from performing more abortions, but you seem to stop there and that's about as deep as you think into this issue, John. Imagine the harm he did to the pro-life movement. This may lead to more abortions, more abortion doctors, less legislation against abortion (and more promoting a woman's right to choose), and a martyrdom of this abortion doctor. This is yet another problem with acting as the sole judge, jurror, and executioner... it is much easier to fall into unintended consequences from a single subjective viewpoint.


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: Is it "cowardly," wrong ethically, or wrong according to the bible to kill an abortion provider? [Re: supernovasky]
    #10440450 - 06/02/09 11:52 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

"Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, Vengeance is Mine, I will repay, says the Lord."

By that same token, one could say that the killing of the doctor was the vengeance not of the man who shot him, but of the lord who wrote the script.  Looks like that's one answer to the original question.

Another is the one posted above, that the man ought not have judged, and his "free choices" would be looked down on by god. 

Yet another question boiled down to free will vs. determinism


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Offlinemonkeywrench
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Re: Is it "cowardly," wrong ethically, or wrong according to the bible to kill an abortion provider? [Re: xFrockx]
    #10440500 - 06/02/09 12:06 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

"Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, Vengeance is Mine, I will repay, says the Lord."

Quoting the bible only serves to make one look stupid. :rofl2:


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[quote]skalthren said:
It's nice of you to imply that I've been brainwashed by the government, but the truth is that I'm simply intelligent enough to recognize the subtleties of these issues instead of going "durr hurr, weed should totally be legal!"[/quote]


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: Is it "cowardly," wrong ethically, or wrong according to the bible to kill an abortion provider? [Re: johnm214]
    #10440515 - 06/02/09 12:10 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
Quote:


According to the Bible a person who commits murder isn't a Christian.

1st John 3:15b "....you know that no murderer has eternal life remaining in him."

This would apply to Tiller's killer and Tiller himself.  One heathen killed another.  :shrug:





I allready discussed that prohibition on murder, and you've not offered anything to show this was murder.

Was it?  That's the whole point.  You can't just declare "this was murder" without establishing it is so.




You asked your question within the context of the Bible.  The answer was within the context of the verse.

1st John 3:15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life remaining in him.

So if you even hate your Christian brother you are a murderer.  The Greek word in this instance is anthropoktonos, from anthrôpos (man) and kteine (to kill).  There is no distinction in this verse between killing and murdering.  This is compared to phoneus (murderer)--a murderer (always of criminal (or at least intentional) homicide.

You had also said: "Is there any major sect of christianity that feels it is wrong to kill in defense of the imminent murder of another?  Can the bible be interpreted as to condemn this?  I say no.  It is not wrong under the bible to kill to prevent another's imminent murder."


My response was: "Please show New Testament scriptures to back up your view.  The Bible can be interpreted to defend one's wife or immediate family members, i.e. children.  But it cannot be stretched to include a crime like this."

The New Testament has an extremely strong prohibition against taking the life of another.  So much so that many Christians now think abortion is murder.  Certainly using the Bible as a standard, Scott Roeder committed murder.


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Offlinesupernovasky
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Re: Is it "cowardly," wrong ethically, or wrong according to the bible to kill an abortion provider? [Re: xFrockx]
    #10440631 - 06/02/09 12:41 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
"Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, Vengeance is Mine, I will repay, says the Lord."

By that same token, one could say that the killing of the doctor was the vengeance not of the man who shot him, but of the lord who wrote the script.  Looks like that's one answer to the original question.

Another is the one posted above, that the man ought not have judged, and his "free choices" would be looked down on by god. 

Yet another question boiled down to free will vs. determinism




I definitely think the vengeance one is clearly prohibited by christianity. This is why Christians are taught to proselytize and not to actually enact judgement, which is reserved to the Lord. Before someone mentions government and how many Christians condemn people to death all the time through government, the bible clearly provides different rules to conduct within a government that does not adhere completely to christianity, and this brings me to a THIRD criticism of this man's decision through Christianity:

Christianity believes that ALL authorities are established by God, and the bible uses this to compel men to act in accordance with the law of the land:

Romans 13:1-7 states, “Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.”

Titus 3:1 - Remind the people to be subject to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready to do whatever is good

I Peter 2:13-14 Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right.


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Offlinezouden
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Re: Is it "cowardly," wrong ethically, or wrong according to the bible to kill an abortion provider? [Re: johnm214]
    #10442184 - 06/02/09 05:45 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
Quote:

zouden said:
How is shooting someone in a church not murder? Because the shooter thought it was justified? I'm sure the doctor thought the abortions he performed were justified too.





I thought I went over this before, it is not murder because it is not wrongful killing.  It is not wrongful killing because it is to prevent future wrongful killings.




But that's a subjective judgement. No court would accept that, even though they would accept self-defence. I know courts aren't a final arbiter of morality, of course, but the reasoning is sound: killing him was not the only option to stop the death of babies, so the accused was not forced into killing him. It was his choice.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Is it "cowardly," wrong ethically, or wrong according to the bible to kill an abortion provider? [Re: zouden]
    #10442364 - 06/02/09 06:04 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Of course, the good doctor killed no babies. This is the dishonesty of the 'Pro-Lifers'. He aborted fetuses that were endangering the mother's health or were genetically deformed. Either way, an ovum is not an embryo is not a fetus is not a baby.

Why are they afraid to say it like it is?


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Is it "cowardly," wrong ethically, or wrong according to the bible to kill an abortion provider? [Re: Swyfty Swyf]
    #10442525 - 06/02/09 06:25 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Swyfty Swyf said:
The definition of fringe is "members of a group holding extreme views."

What is more extreme than the notion that our lives are meant to get as many people as we can to believe the ridiculous idea that a man 2000 years ago was actually God, and he ressurected himself from death?



Actually...
Quote:

fringe  /frɪndʒ/  Show Spelled Pronunciation [frinj]  Show IPA noun, verb, fringed, fring⋅ing.
–noun 1. a decorative border of thread, cord, or the like, usually hanging loosely from a raveled edge or separate strip.
2. anything resembling or suggesting this: a fringe of grass around a swimming pool. 
3. an outer edge; margin; periphery: on the fringe of the art world. 
4. something regarded as peripheral, marginal, secondary, or extreme in relation to something else: the lunatic fringe of a strong political party.






In this context, definitions 2&3 are the most relevant; the views of the group don't have to necessarily be extreme, but the group itself, by definition, must be marginal, peripheral, secondary, etc., and the Catholic church is neither of those.


I agree, though, that the Catholic church is a bunch of bullshit, but if you ever try to reason with people of faith, it goes absolutely nowhere. Trust me, I've tried.  :satansmoking:


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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: Is it "cowardly," wrong ethically, or wrong according to the bible to kill an abortion provider? [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #10442773 - 06/02/09 07:02 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Mr. Mushrooms said:
1st John 3:15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life remaining in him.




Does this mean that murderers will not be saved?  Didn't Jesus die expressly so that all sinners would be saved?


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Is it "cowardly," wrong ethically, or wrong according to the bible to kill an abortion provider? [Re: deCypher]
    #10442808 - 06/02/09 07:08 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

He died in order to save as many people as possible, but, according to the Bible, if the light has been revealed to you, and you continue to be evil, you will go to hell.
:onfire:


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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Is it "cowardly," wrong ethically, or wrong according to the bible to kill an abortion provider? [Re: Poid]
    #10442814 - 06/02/09 07:09 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Do you have a Biblical source on that mandate?


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Is it "cowardly," wrong ethically, or wrong according to the bible to kill an abortion provider? [Re: deCypher]
    #10442829 - 06/02/09 07:11 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

If I had the Bible with me, I'd probably be able to find it. I think it's contained somewhere in Revelations...


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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: Is it "cowardly," wrong ethically, or wrong according to the bible to kill an abortion provider? [Re: deCypher]
    #10443278 - 06/02/09 08:13 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

Mr. Mushrooms said:
1st John 3:15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life remaining in him.




Does this mean that murderers will not be saved?




According to the context of the verse, no Christian can call themselves one if they hate their Christian brother.  It has nothing to do with murderers that repent and are saved.

Quote:

deCypher said:
  Didn't Jesus die expressly so that all sinners would be saved?




Jesus substitutionary death on the cross and subsequent resurrection are the means by which sinners can be 'saved'.  As Poid pointed out, not all will avail themselves of this.  Those that don't will spend eternity in the lake of fire.

This is standard orthodox Protestant teaching included and found in most doctrinal creeds of evangelical Christianity.

In sum, turn or :onfire:


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Re: Is it "cowardly," wrong ethically, or wrong according to the bible to kill an abortion provider? [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #10443605 - 06/02/09 09:04 PM (12 years, 6 months ago)

I don't know anything about Christianity but I would assume through logic that you would leave the judgement and punishment up to god, and to assume his position and kill in his name would probably be an offense if anything. If he was going to burn in hell, for eternity, shooting him was meaningless.


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Re: Is it "cowardly," wrong ethically, or wrong according to the bible to kill an abortion provider? [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #10444886 - 06/03/09 12:50 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

My overly zealous Catholic uncles think that Protestants are evil. :satansmoking:


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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Re: Is it "cowardly," wrong ethically, or wrong according to the bible to kill an abortion provider? [Re: zouden]
    #10445339 - 06/03/09 02:11 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Ehh, well I guess I must say I'm sorry I included anything to do with the bible- its seems folks immediatly jump to talking about religion or whatever being silly.  Anyways, I retract the question about the bible, anyone care to comment on the question regarding the morality of the act under the stated premises?  Hardly anyone has done that, it seems to me most folks have just equivocated or rejected the presmises of the thread (if folks are going to do this it would be nice to disclaim any purported relevance to teh question asked so the reasoning isn't so puzzling).


Anyways, Mr. Mushrooms, I'll concede the point that there is more authority in the bible that the killing is wrong, but I also suspect that pretty much all chrisitan flavors teach things that lead to this being acceptable, or at least teach things that would make this act not being acceptable manifestly inconsistant with other teachings.
The catholics seem to say their is a difference between murder and killing:
Catechism 2265 and 3 seem to say its your duty to protect people in your care and that killing in defense of wrongful killing is acceptable.
And haven't the protestant churches accepted the commandment as thou shalt not murder rather than kill with the acceptance of a distinction and allowance for self defense and defense of life?

What, if any, chrisitan churches would oppose this act under these premises (which they seem to agree with) under their general teachings of defense of life?  (ignoring inconsistent commands regarding this specific type of act unless they make some rational distinction necessitating the dispartate treatment)




If its acceptable to kill in defense of a person's life then this act would seem acceptable under the premises of the thread.  The only thing I could see is believing you had a duty to attempt to kidnap the guy or cut off his hand or something prior to killing, though I don't buy it given the difficulty and greater chance for failure.  I don't think these alternatives are reasonably available.
Quote:

zouden said:
Quote:

johnm214 said:
Quote:

zouden said:
How is shooting someone in a church not murder? Because the shooter thought it was justified? I'm sure the doctor thought the abortions he performed were justified too.





I thought I went over this before, it is not murder because it is not wrongful killing.  It is not wrongful killing because it is to prevent future wrongful killings.




But that's a subjective judgement. No court would accept that, even though they would accept self-defence. I know courts aren't a final arbiter of morality, of course, but the reasoning is sound: killing him was not the only option to stop the death of babies, so the accused was not forced into killing him. It was his choice.





I'm not so sure under an anagloous situation a court would disallow a self defense claim as a matter of law, or rule it not applicable to the situation.  This exact situation wouldn't work in kansas and other places, but it doesn't really matter cuz the premises of this thread don't hold there: the abortion is not considered a wrongful killing so the defense claim is invalid.


And i don't know why you've decided that if any other option is available someone is bound to take that option.  Its not true in america- even the more strict states only require reasonable options and your not required to put youself at risk or attempt something you couldn't likely do.


i doubt this guy could easily capture the doctor or cut off his hands or whatnot and those are the only alternatives I see.  While its possible other things could work, I see no moral imperitive to pursue other options if the one you choose (killing) is acceptable.  And I think the killing would be acceptable if you knew the abortions would continue and there was no similarly effective solution.  Shooting the guy would be easiest and allow you the greates chance of escaping harm yourself.  I don't see how a defensive killing becomes wrong because you had other options at greater risk to yourself.


The hostage about to be executed could try to stun the guy, stab him in the arm and run, or just run, and all could work.  But I don't think he is under any imperitive to try these before stabbing the guy in the head given the risk to himself and the acceptability of the killing in the abstract.


It seems to me you either believe some strange things from my perspective about the morality of defensive killing or your just trying to reach a different result cuz you don't like where it leads.  I don't think the premises of this question are correct either, but I don't see how the claims of antiabortion groups on moral grounds are sound, presuming they share what i think are pretty common beliefs about hte acceptability of defensive killing-


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Offlinezouden
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Re: Is it "cowardly," wrong ethically, or wrong according to the bible to kill an abortion provider? [Re: johnm214]
    #10445562 - 06/03/09 03:13 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

But to draw another analogy, if someone told me he was going to kill another person next week, is it reasonable for me to shoot him?


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
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Re: Is it "cowardly," wrong ethically, or wrong according to the bible to kill an abortion provider? [Re: zouden]
    #10445683 - 06/03/09 03:49 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Not on that alone.


I tried to set up the o.p. so that the belief that a wrongful killing (many of them) would occur was reasonable and quite convincing (and accurate we can even presume if we think it relevant).


Someone telling you they are going to kill someone next week doesn't by itself let you make a reasonable determination that it is quite certain, like the abortion case, that a person will be wrongfully killed.  It also presents other opportunities that may be expected to prevail.  Talking the guy out of it, seeing if he's likely to do it, seeing if restraining him is possible (with teh aide of the police, et cet).


None of these seem to apply in the case presented in the thread.  The most you can say is that the doctor almost certianly will wrongfully kill several people soon, as he has in the past, and there is an opportunity to attempt things that either are unlikely to work (talking to him, telling the police) or are quite dangerous and present risk of failure (kidnapping, trying to abduct him to cut off his arms, trying to shoot his arms and hoping he can't recover and you aren't caught, et cet).


The main point though is by itself the killing is justified with the abortion doc and the alternatives are much less available or much more risky to the killer whereas with the guy saying he'll kill their are both reasonable alternatives that are likely to work and a doubt as to whether he really will wrongfully kill someone.


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Offlinezouden
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Re: Is it "cowardly," wrong ethically, or wrong according to the bible to kill an abortion provider? [Re: johnm214]
    #10445706 - 06/03/09 03:59 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

It's only justifiable if you think that abortion is wrongful killing. Many people, including the state of Kansas, do not. In that case, what the guy did was shoot a man for doing his job.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see


Edited by zouden (06/03/09 04:00 AM)


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Re: Is it "cowardly," wrong ethically, or wrong according to the bible to kill an abortion provider? [Re: johnm214]
    #10446302 - 06/03/09 09:48 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
Ehh, well I guess I must say I'm sorry I included anything to do with the bible- its seems folks immediatly jump to talking about religion or whatever being silly.  Anyways, I retract the question about the bible, anyone care to comment on the question regarding the morality of the act under the stated premises?  Hardly anyone has done that, it seems to me most folks have just equivocated or rejected the presmises of the thread (if folks are going to do this it would be nice to disclaim any purported relevance to teh question asked so the reasoning isn't so puzzling).





Who are you trying to fool? You want us to address the morality of the issue "under the stated premise". What exactly are you looking for? Seems to me like you want to dismiss any point that does not agree with yours.

I've already addressed how irrational and immoral this act is and all you have to say is that I rejected the premise of this thread. Seems to me that you might want to rethink your question.


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