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OfflineScukels
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Ironic Advice / Forum Security
    #10411790 - 05/28/09 01:56 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Often, on these forums, I've seen someone advise another to "not tell anyone" about their grow. Afterall, it's the best way to keep something quiet.

Then I realized that by discussing our grows on these forums, we are almost, literally, telling the world via the internet. Then that little area in my brain that makes me all paranoid made me question the security of the shroomery.  I made a grow log, which essentially is a list of proof that I have a grow.

In using other online forums, I've learned that there are ways of monitoring IP's of its members. Using online applications, such as this, could be used to, literally, track a user to their city! Could someone please let me know if the shroomery has taken measures or is already aware of this threat?

:uhoh:

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InvisibleSuperD
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Re: Ironic Advice / Forum Security [Re: Scukels]
    #10411824 - 05/28/09 02:11 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Yeah there's a risk if you're a grower and showing it off on here, but there are some who have been doing it almost since the Shroomery's inception and they have yet to be taken down or even so much as looked at.


--------------------
:super:D
Manoa said:
I need to stop spending all my money on plants and take up a cheaper hobby, like heroin. :lol:

Looking for Rauhocereus riosaniensis seeds or live specimen(s), :pm: me if you have any for trade

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OfflineBrennus
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Re: Ironic Advice / Forum Security [Re: SuperD]
    #10411919 - 05/28/09 03:10 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

We do have Freedom of Speech and it's assumed that growers take general precautions - such as not advertising their location. Unless the Shroomery was tied to something explicitly illegal (such as allowing members to trade illegal items, ie. liquid mycelium, drugs, etc.) there's no probable cause (read: legal way) the government could seize the servers and locate individuals. Everything here is essentially protected under the first amendment.

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OfflineScukels
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Re: Ironic Advice / Forum Security [Re: Brennus]
    #10412670 - 05/28/09 09:54 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

I hope so :P

I'm sure someday, I will end up removing all my pictures and such...

after all, people's rights have been ignore before.

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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: Ironic Advice / Forum Security [Re: Brennus]
    #10413101 - 05/28/09 11:58 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Everything here is essentially protected under the first amendment.




The first amendment allows you to speak your mind, but it provides no protection against that speech being used to convict you of a crime.

I wouldn't worry about posting pictures, everyone does it and it hasn't caused anyone problems yet.

It could cause problems though.  If you are worried about it, state that your friend gave you pictures of their grow to post.

For more information see http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/10176633#10176633

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OfflineScukels
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Re: Ironic Advice / Forum Security [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #10413199 - 05/28/09 12:16 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Yeah just to be totally clear since this comes up occasionally, the Shroomery has been online since August 1997 (almost 12 years!) and in that time the site has not had any legal problems. We've never had any contact with law enforcement, and I am not aware of any member who fell under suspicion or got in trouble for anything posted on the site.

That's not to say that it couldn't happen of course, just that it hasn't happened yet.




Feels good to read that from an admin.

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Ironic Advice / Forum Security [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #10413460 - 05/28/09 01:20 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Alan Rockefeller said:
Quote:

Everything here is essentially protected under the first amendment.




The first amendment allows you to speak your mind, but it provides no protection against that speech being used to convict you of a crime.






Yeah, I never understood the issue with that, but people don't get it.



There is a difference between being prosecuted for saying something and being prosecuted for soemthing else that is proven by what you say.  The first amendment protects your right to express ideas, it does not protect you from having those ideas be used against you in court.  If it did there would have been no reason for the fifth amendment (though the people who claim there's no distinction usually say that confessions don't count- they just can't explain the constitutional signifigance)



I've had people argue about that for pages and yet couldn't come up with any law on the subject.

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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Ironic Advice / Forum Security [Re: Scukels]
    #10413519 - 05/28/09 01:34 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

In using other online forums, I've learned that there are ways of monitoring IP's of its members. Using online applications, such as this, could be used to, literally, track a user to their city! Could someone please let me know if the shroomery has taken measures or is already aware of this threat?




Ha! LOL

The shroomery has actually sold your info to both Google Metrics and Amazon.com in the past, and I believe they are still providing info to amazon.

The government doesn't need a search warrant to get most of this info.  All they have to do is post a pic that is linked to one of their servers and they'll get your IP in nothing flat.  Shroomery has done some work on that, but the problem is far from fixed.

Also, repeated requests for information on how frequently (if ever) the IP logs are cleared have been ignored or resulted in evasive answers.

From what I've seen they log and keep at least your initial IP forever.  They also at least store a lengthy log of recent IPs if they even clear them ever.

The shroomery is more concerned with making money by selling your info to 3rd parties and dealing with spam/puppets than they are about your personal privacy.

If you don't think so then just read their privacy agreement.  It's worst than most regular sites and doesn't address the IP issue at all.


I'm always amazed at people that outright say flat out that they are growing and what they're doing, then post pics to prove it.  They don't seem to realize that their IP (and likely their address) is PERMANENTLY tied to a direct admission of breaking a law.

If one thing is clear it's that the DEA likes to do massive operations rather than pick people off one at a time.  Look at operation "Pipe Dreams" and others.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Pipe_Dream

They like to to large national operations and swoop in all at once on their targets.

I fear the day is coming for the shroomery, and they have done nothing to protect us.  Even the most basic things like clearing IP logs once in awhile they don't do because they are too concerned about spam, puppets, and making money.


-FF

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OfflineScukels
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Registered: 03/22/09
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Re: Ironic Advice / Forum Security [Re: fastfred]
    #10413531 - 05/28/09 01:36 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Fuck it! Now I'm all paranoid again.

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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: Ironic Advice / Forum Security [Re: fastfred]
    #10416543 - 05/28/09 10:03 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

The shroomery has actually sold your info to both Google Metrics and Amazon.com in the past, and I believe they are still providing info to amazon.




I don't think amazon gets any info that wouldn't be easily obtainable with just a web browser and a few html tricks.

Quote:

Also, repeated requests for information on how frequently (if ever) the IP logs are cleared have been ignored or resulted in evasive answers.




For good reason! 

It is likely that the answer to that question depends on who is asking. 

Asking that question in a public forum puts us in a bad position.  Just assume that everything is logged for ever, as it is on most web sites.  By default Apache never clears the logs.  Its very possible that the logs get deleted very quickly due to the disk space on the server.  I am not really sure.  And if I was sure I surely wouldn't say anything about it in public.  A subpoena can only request the logs that you have, they can't tell you not to delete them.  But if you delete them after you get a subpoena then you are in serious legal trouble.  So please don't try to get us to say exactly how long the logs are stored.  They are stored for random amounts of time, at the whim of the administrators and disk space permitting.

Quote:

The government doesn't need a search warrant to get most of this info.  All they have to do is post a pic that is linked to one of their servers and they'll get your IP in nothing flat.  Shroomery has done some work on that, but the problem is far from fixed.




My avatar is hosted on an external server, so I can see the IP address of everyone who views it.  It is no longer possible to do this, now when you choose an avatar shroomery downloads the image and reuploads it to a local server.  Luckily my external avatar has been grandfathered in.  The problem is fixed in PM's now as well, however it still exists in posts and journal entries.  I am not sure that it really should be fixed, its nice to be able to link to offsite images and thats just how the internet works.  The Internet was never designed for privacy, if you want that then you need to use an untraceable internet connection or some type of untraceable proxy. 

Quote:

From what I've seen they log and keep at least your initial IP forever.  They also at least store a lengthy log of recent IPs if they even clear them ever.




IP's are stored in a lot of places.  If you don't want yours stored, use someone elses.

Quote:

The shroomery is more concerned with making money by selling your info to 3rd parties and dealing with spam/puppets than they are about your personal privacy.




I don't think that is an accurate statement. 

What does Amazon see that can't be seen anyway? 

In my opinion they are concerned about personal privacy - They are the only website that I know of that strips out EXIF headers from all images to enhance privacy.  But at the end of the day your privacy is your own business - no web site can absolve you of that responsibility, no matter how it is coded.

You should assume that all packets sent in and out of shroomery are sniffed by the government.  I have no proof one way or the other, but it would be foolish to assume otherwise.  Encrypted PM's are very secure, everyone should be using those.  Browsing with an SSL connection will help, but that takes a lot of extra CPU cycles on the server side. 

Quote:

If you don't think so then just read their privacy agreement.  It's worst than most regular sites and doesn't address the IP issue at all.




I have read it and I think its pretty good.  It certainly puts the responsibility for security on the user, which is where it should be.  Do you see anything in the privacy policy that should be changed?

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OfflineScukels
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Re: Ironic Advice / Forum Security [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #10417245 - 05/29/09 12:19 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

:awesome:

*exhales*

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Invisiblefastfred
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Re: Ironic Advice / Forum Security [Re: Scukels]
    #10419987 - 05/29/09 01:53 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

I have read it and I think its pretty good.  It certainly puts the responsibility for security on the user, which is where it should be.  Do you see anything in the privacy policy that should be changed?




It looks like they've updated it since the last time I looked at it.  Hopefully in response to user concerns.

The most concerning part is that they do share or allow 3rd parties to collect IP info.  I, and probably most other users, don't like amazon to be constantly showing me mushroom related ads when I log into their site.  If online retailers know my IP and that I have an interest in mushrooms then how secure is that information really?

It's going to get to the point where there's mailing and IP lists of people associated with illegal mushrooms.  I'm sure it will be done with the good intent of selling us their crap.  But as that list grows and is circulated, sold, and added to it's going to become much more available.  It will come to a point where the DEA sets up a shell company (as in many of their operations) and gets access to this list.  That sets the stage for an "operation pipe dreams" style nation-wide  bust.


Quote:

Asking that question in a public forum puts us in a bad position.  Just assume that everything is logged for ever, as it is on most web sites.  By default Apache never clears the logs.  Its very possible that the logs get deleted very quickly due to the disk space on the server.  I am not really sure.  And if I was sure I surely wouldn't say anything about it in public.  A subpoena can only request the logs that you have, they can't tell you not to delete them.  But if you delete them after you get a subpoena then you are in serious legal trouble.  So please don't try to get us to say exactly how long the logs are stored.  They are stored for random amounts of time, at the whim of the administrators and disk space permitting.




I see exactly what you're suggesting, but there's no reason the policy can't be a bit more specific.  Such as "IP logs are cleared a minimum of once every three months."  A statement like this might really help to actually deter subpoenas as there's no point in looking for something that isn't there.

> IP's are stored in a lot of places.  If you don't want yours stored, use someone elses.

I do.

> What does Amazon see that can't be seen anyway?

The IP addresses of every shroomery user.

It's really going to take a large-scale, nationwide bust before people start taking this issue seriously.  At that point it might be too late to ever really recover.


-FF

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OfflineShadowfoxhound
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Re: Ironic Advice / Forum Security [Re: fastfred]
    #10423430 - 05/30/09 01:44 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

You can always say your log was a joke. Jokes are good.......

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Ironic Advice / Forum Security [Re: fastfred]
    #10423902 - 05/30/09 05:12 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

fastfred said:
If one thing is clear it's that the DEA likes to do massive operations rather than pick people off one at a time.  Look at operation "Pipe Dreams" and others.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Pipe_Dream

They like to to large national operations and swoop in all at once on their targets.

I fear the day is coming for the shroomery, and they have done nothing to protect us.  Even the most basic things like clearing IP logs once in awhile they don't do because they are too concerned about spam, puppets, and making money.




I tend to agree, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that they have done nothing to protect us.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Ironic Advice / Forum Security [Re: deCypher]
    #10423995 - 05/30/09 06:34 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

I doubt they will go after people here, personally.

Going after suppliers and the shroomery itself would be more effective towards their goals I would imagine (or percievably so) and would be achievable.


I think as a longevity issue for the shroomery itself they should take some steps to not only protect the suppliers but protect themselves by regulating more strongly, including censorship of company names, connections between individuals' actions and the sponsors as well as sponsors' own content that infers knowledge and encouragement of activities illegal in the US.  Based on the sites I've seen it does not seem so difficult to objectively infer illegal actions by the sponsors and vicariously, only partially, the shroomery.

It seems past time for some action to be taken given the risk and ease with which changes could be made that would offer some real protection.

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Invisibletak
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Re: Ironic Advice / Forum Security [Re: johnm214]
    #10434712 - 06/01/09 11:00 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

It's an internet forum. Dont be stupid about what you put out there, know what you are doing.

I think the shroomery takes a pretty pro-active approach to security.

Just know they do not block webcrawling of the forums though, so everything you post is on google and shroomery usually ranks pretty good on relevant results.


--------------------
The DJ's took pills to stay awake and play for seven days.

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Offlinegompers
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Re: Ironic Advice / Forum Security [Re: johnm214]
    #10437210 - 06/01/09 07:11 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
I doubt they will go after people here, personally.

Going after suppliers and the shroomery itself would be more effective towards their goals I would imagine (or percievably so) and would be achievable.






The fact that you have doubt, and base it again on something that you have an opinion on makes me feel safe.


--------------------
chris606 said:
some 1 told me to try long brown rice and water and vermiculite and pressure cook for 1 hour i did but nothing happen that is y was wonting to no if i need spores

Edited by gompers (06/01/09 07:12 PM)

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