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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: An opinion about alcohol and marijuana [Re: Zanthius]
    #10406793 - 05/27/09 10:18 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Zanthius said:
Quote:

deCypher said:
Harmful to others, perhaps, but what negative effects the drug exhibits solely on the drug user should not be taken into account.  A person should be allowed to choose self-destruction without a nanny state government stepping in.




Well, that sounds pretty nice, but it isn't necessarily possible to separate harm to yourself from harm to your environment, especially if you are given almost free health care, like you would be if you were living in Norway. People here also get money from the government, if they are too ill to go to work.




Yeah, I'm also against such socialist policies as free health care and welfare.

Quote:

Zanthius said:
Another issue is in regard to your children. I doubt that most parents would like it, if their children could buy heroin in the food store. Personally, I think it is bad enough that they can buy normal nicotine cigarettes in the food store.




18+ and up for buying recreational drugs should be the only regulation.


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OfflineC.M. Mann
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Re: An opinion about alcohol and marijuana [Re: deCypher]
    #10411319 - 05/27/09 11:49 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

:thumbup::bigblunt:

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InvisibleZanthius
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Re: An opinion about alcohol and marijuana [Re: deCypher]
    #10411512 - 05/28/09 12:31 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
18+ and up for buying recreational drugs should be the only regulation.




Well, if heroin is sold in normal food stores to people above the age of 18, 15 year old kids will just get their 18 year old friends to buy heroin for them. My 18 year old friends bought alcohol to me when I was 15.

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: An opinion about alcohol and marijuana [Re: deCypher]
    #10411567 - 05/28/09 12:48 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
18+ and up for buying recreational drugs should be the only regulation.



What about quality regulation?


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InvisibleQuetzalcohuatl
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Re: An opinion about alcohol and marijuana [Re: mellowparty]
    #10411648 - 05/28/09 01:11 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

alcohol is good marijuana is bad that's my opinion and I'm always right

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: An opinion about alcohol and marijuana [Re: Silversoul]
    #10411920 - 05/28/09 03:11 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Zanthius said:
Quote:

deCypher said:
18+ and up for buying recreational drugs should be the only regulation.




Well, if heroin is sold in normal food stores to people above the age of 18, 15 year old kids will just get their 18 year old friends to buy heroin for them. My 18 year old friends bought alcohol to me when I was 15.




So just because legalization might not be completely perfect in its results means that we shouldn't enact it? 

Ideally we should be making sure parents teach their children right, so they decide to use drugs responsibly, and not be futilely enforcing punitive restrictions on drugs that will get in their hands regardless through black-market dealers.

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

deCypher said:
18+ and up for buying recreational drugs should be the only regulation.



What about quality regulation?




IDK, I imagine something like the FDA would probably step in.  I was talking more about drug availability to the civilian; I wouldn't prevent all the normal legalese that goes on with regular consumable product distribution.


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Offlinemellowparty
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Re: An opinion about alcohol and marijuana [Re: deCypher]
    #10411950 - 05/28/09 03:30 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Okay heroin I think is best to stay off the market. It should be used for terminal cancer patients or sth. This is where the problem with harm to the self and society occurs. I don't give a fuck if u are a needle fiend but I give a fuck if u rob my gf in some dark street corner to buy more stuff. All I say is that things like cannabis magic mushrooms and some other thing that doesn't bring harm to society should be legal like tobacco and alcohol (although there will always be harm to the society and this depends more on the point of view). Don't go for that all-drugs decriminalization...it is non-sense!


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Edited by mellowparty (05/28/09 03:31 AM)

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: An opinion about alcohol and marijuana [Re: mellowparty]
    #10412044 - 05/28/09 04:53 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Oh yeah, exactly what we needed, more drug elitism. :whatever:

Quote:

I don't give a fuck if u are a needle fiend but I give a fuck if u rob my gf in some dark street corner to buy more stuff.




Yeah, because turning heroin legal will do that, as opposed to how things are now. :cuckoo:
If anything, this will reduce the number or heroin users of this kind.

Quote:

All I say is that things like cannabis magic mushrooms and some other thing that doesn't bring harm to society should be legal like tobacco and alcohol (although there will always be harm to the society and this depends more on the point of view). Don't go for that all-drugs decriminalization...it is non-sense!




What drugs bring harm, and what drugs don't? Also, how did you judge this? Last time I checked, it was still people that were doing harm, and just because some people will behave irresponsibly no matter what, isn't enough reason to keep a kind of drug illegal.
I'm waiting for an explanation from you as to why an all-drug decriminalization would be a nonsense, with real examples.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Offlinezouden
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Re: An opinion about alcohol and marijuana [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10412103 - 05/28/09 05:56 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

I favour a more moderate approach, where possession of a drug is never a crime but the really addictive drugs are only available through a controlled program, perhaps something similar to a prescription from a doctor.

I mean, it's futile to pretend that people won't get addicted to heroin. So we should minimise the harm they do to themselves (by ensuring they get a clean supply) and to others (by reducing the link to crime). But at the same time it'd probably be a good idea to discourage people from taking up the habit. I think the same approach should be used for tobacco.


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I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
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Offlinemellowparty
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Re: An opinion about alcohol and marijuana [Re: zouden]
    #10412158 - 05/28/09 06:24 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Yeah, because turning heroin legal will do that, as opposed to how things are now.
If anything, this will reduce the number or heroin users of this kind.




Legal or not the junky still needs cash to buy dope, right?
I like what the neuroscientist said:
Quote:

I favour a more moderate approach, where possession of a drug is never a crime but the really addictive drugs are only available through a controlled program, perhaps something similar to a prescription from a doctor.

I mean, it's futile to pretend that people won't get addicted to heroin. So we should minimise the harm they do to themselves (by ensuring they get a clean supply) and to others (by reducing the link to crime). But at the same time it'd probably be a good idea to discourage people from taking up the habit. I think the same approach should be used for tobacco.



Perhaps the state should take the control over substances like heroin because there will always be addicts, but at least the state could reduce the number of overdoses and also it will make a huge impact on the black market and organized crime.
Is that decriminalization??? Or just control shift?
It is nonsense to buy heroin freely in the drugstore!


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InvisibleZanthius
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Re: An opinion about alcohol and marijuana [Re: zouden]
    #10412307 - 05/28/09 07:31 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

zouden said:
I favour a more moderate approach, where possession of a drug is never a crime but the really addictive drugs are only available through a controlled program, perhaps something similar to a prescription from a doctor.

I mean, it's futile to pretend that people won't get addicted to heroin. So we should minimise the harm they do to themselves (by ensuring they get a clean supply) and to others (by reducing the link to crime). But at the same time it'd probably be a good idea to discourage people from taking up the habit. I think the same approach should be used for tobacco.




I completely agree with you. Selling heroin in normal food stores is certainly not a good idea, but it should be available to addicts with a prescription from a doctor, like you are saying.

I also think that tobacco shouldn't be sold in normal food stores, but it should be available from other sources for those "idiots" that really want it.

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: An opinion about alcohol and marijuana [Re: mellowparty]
    #10412427 - 05/28/09 08:30 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

mellowparty said:
Legal or not the junky still needs cash to buy dope, right?





What's your point? So does the starving homeless - he needs cash to buy food and other crap.
It really doesn't make much sense to pretend you see in the future and know that criminality rate will go up because of legalizing all drugs. All the countries that have very tolerant laws for drugs and the ones that completely decriminalized them (see Portugal) have experienced a considerable drop in criminality.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: An opinion about alcohol and marijuana [Re: Zanthius]
    #10412529 - 05/28/09 09:07 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

zouden said:
I favour a more moderate approach, where possession of a drug is never a crime but the really addictive drugs are only available through a controlled program, perhaps something similar to a prescription from a doctor.

I mean, it's futile to pretend that people won't get addicted to heroin. So we should minimise the harm they do to themselves (by ensuring they get a clean supply) and to others (by reducing the link to crime). But at the same time it'd probably be a good idea to discourage people from taking up the habit. I think the same approach should be used for tobacco.





What would this accomplish and who is going to authorize the use and on what grounds will the decision be made?  What means will you use to enforce your program?


When it comes down to it, I see no justification for putting gunmen on someone who honestly provides what someone knowingly wants or on those who posses for their own use a substance and who are not harming anybody.  You can talk about what your goals are all you want, but when it comes down to it, it is immoral to put someone in jail or take their property when they have not harmed anybody's rights.  Theft, assault, and kidnapping are far greater evils then a person choosing to keep and use a substance.
Quote:

Zanthius said:
Quote:

zouden said:
I favour a more moderate approach, where possession of a drug is never a crime but the really addictive drugs are only available through a controlled program, perhaps something similar to a prescription from a doctor.

I mean, it's futile to pretend that people won't get addicted to heroin. So we should minimise the harm they do to themselves (by ensuring they get a clean supply) and to others (by reducing the link to crime). But at the same time it'd probably be a good idea to discourage people from taking up the habit. I think the same approach should be used for tobacco.




I completely agree with you. Selling heroin in normal food stores is certainly not a good idea, but it should be available to addicts with a prescription from a doctor, like you are saying.

I also think that tobacco shouldn't be sold in normal food stores, but it should be available from other sources for those "idiots" that really want it.





So you favor continuing prohibition?  What difference does your plan have from the current situation in the US?  The only difference I see is the removal of the requirement for specific permits  for dispensing heroin, et cet, and only requiring the usual controlled substance permits.


You've decided that jailing, assaulting, and taking property from someone who posseses a substance is  amoral thing for a person to do?  On what grounds?

And how would this change the problems of street crime?  You'll retain the inability of people to get the substance, except for the rich with crocked doctors who can afford the outrageous prices, and all the ills of the black market.


I don't see the advantage here.  So now you could get heroin for pain?  You can allready get morphine, what's the difference?


Quote:

mellowparty said:
Okay heroin I think is best to stay off the market. It should be used for terminal cancer patients or sth. This is where the problem with harm to the self and society occurs. I don't give a fuck if u are a needle fiend but I give a fuck if u rob my gf in some dark street corner to buy more stuff. All I say is that things like cannabis magic mushrooms and some other thing that doesn't bring harm to society should be legal like tobacco and alcohol (although there will always be harm to the society and this depends more on the point of view). Don't go for that all-drugs decriminalization...it is non-sense!






?  What does what you wish have to do with anything.  heroin is allready on the market.  Your impotent desires seem irrelevant.


Or do you mean you prefer jailing people who've harmed nobody and forcing the commerce into the hands of hidden and legally irresponsible people?  How is that benficial? 

What is special about terminal cancer patients that you spare them from your reign of kidnapping, assault, and theft?  The nonterminal patient gets jail, looses their job from your conviction, and looses their property? 

What possible grounds do you have to say that marijuana doesn't bring harm to society?  it is the most harmful drug amongst my friends it appears. 


Quote:

I don't give a fuck if u are a needle fiend but I give a fuck if u rob my gf in some dark street corner to buy more stuff.





Great, now connect that with your proposal.  Here, since you've made no effort to, I will.


Heroin is incredibly cheap.  It costs practically nothing to produce.  The price to import it, smuggle it, and distribute it with criminal rings is, on the other hand, quite high.  Without a free market the price rises,a nd the inhrent costs in evading people like you who would jail these folks forces the price way up and the decent people out of the buisness.

Your plan maintains the black market, the incredibly inflated prices, and thus the need for people to rob to support their habit.


You also seem to like jailing people for prospective crimes without any showing of the need.  What grounds do you have to suggest that it is moral or efficacious to jail people because they are a member of a class that robs?  Should we do the same for marijuana users?  This entire discussion is devoid of any reasoning supporting your preises nor connecting your premise to your conclusion.  It is illogical and counterproductive and seems to rest on the unsupported and unstated presumption that jailing and taking property from some people in a group is a good way to get the group to abandon a harmless activity.


Orwell would have loved you with your precrime.

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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: An opinion about alcohol and marijuana [Re: johnm214]
    #10412642 - 05/28/09 09:47 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

What is the problem with heroin? crack?

i think the problem is not what it does to the drug user but to society.

drug users, dealing with criminals, on a comedown, are more likely to commit crimes to get a fix. highly illegal status of drugs means that the people who deal with them are less likely to be law abiding. The more illegal the opperation and the 'harder' the drug means people dealing with such things are surrounded by much more criminal activity and are fuelling one of the main stimulus of that criminal activity , both from the gangs they buy from and the [criminal] junkies they sell to, ie those who break the law to get a fix.

I think only marijuana & psychedelics, andy plants, & ecstacy should be legalised, and research chems legalised for research and eventual legalisation after human trials.

Drugs like refined opiates, refined cocaine should also be legalised

people should start off with the right to do all drugs when they become of legal age.

however people can lose the right to buy or use the drugs if they are deemed irresponsible to the use of that drug, eg shown to be addicted or commited crimes while or close to using the drug.

heavy penalties on supplying such people with the drug

it would be a  complicated system but the revenue from a systemised legalisation would be great.

society needs new concepts though.

it needs to understand the difference btween acceptable drug use and unnaceptable.. needs to realise what it means to be part of society and also take drugs, compared to becoming a junkie, or someone whos life revolves around their drug use.

concepts of honour need to be instated for people who can take drugs and still be healthy, functioning people. also needs to have many concepts to help people realise when they are addicted and stop bein addicted.

'drug addicts' should be allowed to bum their lives away, just like alcoholics and gamblers are.


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Offlinemellowparty
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Re: An opinion about alcohol and marijuana [Re: johnm214]
    #10412702 - 05/28/09 10:05 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

What is special about terminal cancer patients that you spare them from your reign of kidnapping, assault, and theft?  The nonterminal patient gets jail, looses their job from your conviction, and looses their property? 




Maybe the fact that they are going to die very soon and are in great pains. I still don't think that heroin should be readily available. So what are u saying: if somebody decides to get high on smack all day long let him have it. Who is going to pay for the smack, eh? The taxpayers of course. Well I don't think so. I don't feel like supporting the habit of some human waste deprived of his wellbeing. In Norway, for example, the state offers the user everything but the substance and thus helps the users to avoid blood born diseases. And if the person has made a decision to take heroin..well that probably speaks of some mental distortion!
Quote:

?  What does what you wish have to do with anything.  heroin is allready on the market.  Your impotent desires seem irrelevant.



I didn't meant the black market!


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: An opinion about alcohol and marijuana [Re: mellowparty]
    #10412764 - 05/28/09 10:26 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Who is going to pay for the smack, eh? The taxpayers of course.




What are you talking about?
The taxpayers will pay for someone's heroin IF a law will be created to specify this.

Let them pay for their own heroin, in the same manner all the people pay for their water, food, clothing and travels.

Quote:

I didn't meant the black market!




What's the difference between the black market and the white market, when it comes to actually taking the drug? One might be legal and the other one isn't, but this doesn't mean shit when it comes to people deciding what to put in their bodies. :whatever:

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Offlinemellowparty
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Re: An opinion about alcohol and marijuana [Re: mellowparty]
    #10412792 - 05/28/09 10:35 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

It is stupid to offer society something that will harm it. I believe that the state must to control all those substances like heroin and other highly addictive opiates. Just think what happens to all of the users: they either try to quit or die trying or just die. And perhaps somebody is going to criticize me in the pretext of the free choice of life and stuff. But what if I choose to kill u next week. Just like that in the pretext of my free choice as a human being. The user is a burden to society cause all he/she can do is look for a way to get fixed. However, that is my opinion and stop being such pompous asses cause you really look funny and pathetic from the other side. As I am only proposing my point view you are trying to convince me of yours.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: An opinion about alcohol and marijuana [Re: mellowparty]
    #10412806 - 05/28/09 10:41 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

mellowparty said:
It is stupid to offer society something that will harm it.




I'm not going to count off the number of things that are legal and present in society, yet harmful, but I'm sure you're aware there are many.


--------------------
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Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: An opinion about alcohol and marijuana [Re: mellowparty]
    #10412814 - 05/28/09 10:42 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

mellowparty said:
Quote:

What is special about terminal cancer patients that you spare them from your reign of kidnapping, assault, and theft?  The nonterminal patient gets jail, looses their job from your conviction, and looses their property? 




Maybe the fact that they are going to die very soon and are in great pains. I still don't think that heroin should be readily available. So what are u saying: if somebody decides to get high on smack all day long let him have it. Who is going to pay for the smack, eh? The taxpayers of course. Well I don't think so. I don't feel like supporting the habit of some human waste deprived of his wellbeing. In Norway, for example, the state offers the user everything but the substance and thus helps the users to avoid blood born diseases. And if the person has made a decision to take heroin..well that probably speaks of some mental distortion!





I see you've ignored my objections and are now arguing against straw men.


Since you fail to explain why the taxpayer must pay for heroin I'm left to conclude you have no reaosning and just figured it was easier to defeat an argument you've made up yourself then what I actually said.


No, I do not feel the taxpayer should pay for heroin in these situations.  I also don't know why you refer to the users as having a habit or being "human waste".  Are you now limiting your position to only support jailing, taking from, and giving a record to people who are 'human waste' or who have a habit?  Or is this just an irrelevant qualification you've made because you prefer to paint the discussion in the terms most favorable to you even though your position is much broader then the one you argue for?


So who are these "human waste" and "people with a habit" that you now seek to imprison, take from, and label criminals?  Could we have a definition so I know what your discussing?


As you seem to ignore all my points and instead qualify your arguments and attack a straw man of your own creation that's all for this post.  If you feel your position is logical or morally permisable then feel free to respond to what I said rather than arguing against yourself.

Quote:


Quote:

?  What does what you wish have to do with anything.  heroin is allready on the market.  Your impotent desires seem irrelevant.



I didn't meant the black market!





Ok, so what is the distinction relevant to yoru argument?


I'm at a loss here.  Your statement now reads, with this qualification, that you don't want heroin sold legally.  What does the legal classification have to do with any of the effects you mention?  If a given amount of heroin is available at a given price and of given character what does the legal status have to do wtih anything?


Like I said, it seems you jsut make an unstated and unsupported presumption that putting people in jail and taking their property is moral and practical  in seeking to lessen harm (I'm guessing you think its fine to jail people who've done no harm, is that not included in the balance?).  You've provided no evidence this is so and seem unable to respond to the arguments that you support things with paradoxical effects.  (cuz labling people felons and jailing them sure helps them economically)


And you ignored my question regarding marijuana- do you support jailing marijuana users for the harm they, as a group, cause regardless of the individuals' actions?

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Offlinemellowparty
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Re: An opinion about alcohol and marijuana [Re: johnm214]
    #10412884 - 05/28/09 11:04 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Quote:

mellowparty said:
It is stupid to offer society something that will harm it.



I'm not going to count off the number of things that are legal and present in society, yet harmful, but I'm sure you're aware there are many.





Yes, but do we need more. The most prominent example is alcohol I guess or tobacco or air pollution for that matter. However, u must take into account the ratio between harm and usefulness. For example the tobacco smoker seems to work better when he has taken his dose of nicotine. And since he is more capable of work in that condition he can earn more money to buy more cigarettes. And since cigarettes are impeding the users health the sooner he dies the better. Better for the state that is discharged of paying for the pension support of that person. I hope u understand that this was more of a fallacy example before u accuse me of anything. I mean that there are many harmful things in our society that are completely legal just because they are also beneficial. But what benefit will society have from supporting the smack junkies?

And please stop with the jailing and criminals and stuff. I said that the state should offer medical help to its addicts (since they are sick) not put the users in jail because this won't be a rational solution in the case with the heroin addict. And I won't answer the marijuana question since it is irrational to compare the harm done by marijuana and heroin. You must consider the degree of harmfulness as well as the proportion between harm and benefit. Those questions are very delicate and most definitely not straightforward. I believe many other people that are way smarter than me or you have discussed that topic (although I have no idea to what conclusion they've came)


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