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OfflineCowFarmer
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Re: President Obama's Notre Dame Speech [Re: THC Titan]
    #10400467 - 05/26/09 07:33 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

THC Titan said:
On topic, there's not a good enough reason NOT to give Obama an honorary degree. He drew a lot of applause from that crowd, and boo's toward the protestors,




As I said its not Jews vs. Catholics vs. pro-life vs. pro-choice. It's an issue about _rules_ not on how much sway he holds over a college crowd. For all it matters they could have given him 20 standing ovations that still does not hold any importance to the issue at hand here.

Quote:

THC Titan said:
The Catholic bishops are way behind the social curve.



If you mean the social curve that's redefining secular into atheist then yes, I should hope so.


Quote:

THC Titan said:
Obama clearly enunciated that abortions should be reduced by increasing support for adoption programs, prenatal care, and young mothers. I don't know if he specifically mentioned it at Notre Dame but he also ended Bush's subsidies to abstinence-only sex education groups which is a major risk factor for unwanted teenage pregnancies. That has been empirically proven, by the way.



This is all nice and good but refer to the last quote--->

Quote:

THC Titan said:
So unless you're arguing that Obama is literally PRO-abortion, Catholics should moderate themselves and take a step back and find the common ground they have with everyone else.



Remember FOCA and his promise to sign it? Not sure if he did, but he did campagin on it extensively.

Mexico City bill? He repealed it which allows direct funding for overseas abortion.

oh and this little marvel of an article in response to your 2nd to last quote:
Obama Aide: Not Our Goal to Reduce Abortions

So unless you're arguing that PRO-abortion isn't PRO-choice then I think you find yourself on a pretty hard hill to defend. (And no before you try to paint me into a corner, the argument PRO-abortion vs PRO-choice is pretty silly and fueled by emotions more than anything.)


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Offlinepothead_bob
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Re: President Obama's Notre Dame Speech [Re: CowFarmer]
    #10406999 - 05/27/09 01:08 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

It's an issue about _rules




Okay, so should Notre Dame also teach that evolution is a big joke and that the earth was created 5,000 years ago?  Should Biology students learn that all humans have descended from two people?  That's what Catholics believe, after all, and this is about rules.


--------------------
No knowledge can be certain, if it is not based
upon mathematics or upon some other knowledge
which is itself based upon the mathematical
sciences.
  -Leonardo da Vinci (1425-1519)

Speak well of your enemies.  After all, you made them.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: President Obama's Notre Dame Speech [Re: pothead_bob]
    #10407471 - 05/27/09 03:16 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Given that Obama was not granted an honorary degree in biology, what relevance does that have?  None.


--------------------


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Offlinepothead_bob
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Re: President Obama's Notre Dame Speech [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10407563 - 05/27/09 03:37 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

What are you talking about?  CowFarmer said that Notre Dame is a Catholic univeristy and that they should follow rules of the Catholic church (by rules I assume he means their teachings).  The Catholic church doesn't believe in evolution.  Therefore... they shouldn't teach evolution in their university, according to his reasoning.  It's called an analogy.

The point is, religion is stupid and has no place in determining policy in a university.


--------------------
No knowledge can be certain, if it is not based
upon mathematics or upon some other knowledge
which is itself based upon the mathematical
sciences.
  -Leonardo da Vinci (1425-1519)

Speak well of your enemies.  After all, you made them.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: President Obama's Notre Dame Speech [Re: pothead_bob]
    #10407840 - 05/27/09 04:29 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

You asked a dumb question that had not one thing to do with the issue.


--------------------


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: President Obama's Notre Dame Speech [Re: pothead_bob]
    #10407861 - 05/27/09 04:31 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Religion has no place in determining policy?  I agree with you that religions( other than mine) are stupid but determining policy is exactly what they are for.


--------------------


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Offlinepothead_bob
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Re: President Obama's Notre Dame Speech [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10412297 - 05/28/09 09:23 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

You asked a dumb question that had not one thing to do with the issue.




It most certainly is relevant to this issue.  Let me explain it to you since you aren't getting it. 

1. CowFarmer said Notre Dame should follow the rules of the Catholic church.
2. I'm pointing out that if they should be upholding the Catholic Church's morale standing against abortion, then they should also uphold their morale argument against evolution.
3. Otherwise they're hypocritical.

Try and prove that has nothing to do with the issue.

Quote:

Religion has no place in determining policy?  I agree with you that religions( other than mine) are stupid but determining policy is exactly what they are for.




You're twisting what I said - please reread my post.  I said it has no place in determining policy in a university.  Universities are places of higher learning and should be focused on gathering, developing, storing, and distributing knowledge of this physical world, which is proveable, logical, and factual.  Doing anything other than that, like teaching things as fact from a 2,000 year old book written by men who may very well have been skitzophrenic, would be the sign of a second rate shithole school, to say the very least.


--------------------
No knowledge can be certain, if it is not based
upon mathematics or upon some other knowledge
which is itself based upon the mathematical
sciences.
  -Leonardo da Vinci (1425-1519)

Speak well of your enemies.  After all, you made them.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: President Obama's Notre Dame Speech [Re: pothead_bob]
    #10412416 - 05/28/09 10:27 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

2. I'm pointing out that if they should be upholding the Catholic Church's morale standing against abortion, then they should also uphold their morale argument against evolution.




Perhaps you should read up on Catholic dogma with respect to evolution before using it as an argument.

Pope John Paul II said (regarding evolution):
Quote:

Today, almost half a century after publication of the encyclical, new knowledge has led to the recognition of the theory of evolution as more than a hypothesis.  It is indeed remarkable that this theory has been progressively accepted by researchers, following a series of discoveries in various fields of knowledge.  The convergence, neither sought nor fabricated, of the results of work that was conducted independently is in itself a significant argument in favor of the theory.




Pope Pius XII said (regarding evolution):
Quote:

The Teaching Authority of the Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions, on the part of men experiences in both fields, take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter—for the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God.




--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: President Obama's Notre Dame Speech [Re: Seuss]
    #10413491 - 05/28/09 03:26 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

He has still failed to explain what teaching about evolution has to do with advocating the morality or immorality of abortion, as well.  He also seems to be willing to discard all of the humanities.


--------------------


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Offlinepothead_bob
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Re: President Obama's Notre Dame Speech [Re: Seuss]
    #10415208 - 05/28/09 09:02 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Theories of evolution which, because of the philosophies which inspire them, regard the spirit either as emerging from the forces of living matter, or as a simple epiphenomenon of that matter, are incompatible with the truth about man.




Last time I checked, the theory of evolution didn't call for divine intervention as a driving force.  The Catholic Church accepts the theory of theistic evolution, which Notre Dame doesn't teach, except possibly in religous classes.

Quote:

He has still failed to explain what teaching about evolution has to do with advocating the morality or immorality of abortion, as well.




Zapp, continuing to say the same thing and ignoring my responses isn't an effective method of arguing.  Go up two posts and reread.  Also, feel free to respond with more than a one liner.


--------------------
No knowledge can be certain, if it is not based
upon mathematics or upon some other knowledge
which is itself based upon the mathematical
sciences.
  -Leonardo da Vinci (1425-1519)

Speak well of your enemies.  After all, you made them.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: President Obama's Notre Dame Speech [Re: pothead_bob]
    #10419376 - 05/29/09 02:11 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

pothead_bob said:

Quote:

He has still failed to explain what teaching about evolution has to do with advocating the morality or immorality of abortion, as well.




Zapp, continuing to say the same thing and ignoring my responses isn't an effective method of arguing.  Go up two posts and reread.  Also, feel free to respond with more than a one liner.




I read it the first time.  Your failure to make a link between the two is not indicative of my failure to read your post.  It is indicative of nothing other than your failure to make the link.  Please elucidate how a stand on a policy issue, the morality of abortion, has anything to do with, for another example, particle physics.  Because one could argue that particle physics is also contra-indicated by the teachings of the Catholic Church.  Render unto Caesar.


--------------------


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Offlinepothead_bob
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Re: President Obama's Notre Dame Speech [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10419645 - 05/29/09 02:55 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I don't have to make a link between the two because I never said there was a link between abortion and evolution.  Where you got that from, I have no idea.  I used the example of Notre Dame not allowing views on evolution that are contrary to beliefs of the Catholic Church as an analogy to Notre Dame not allowing Obama to speak because his views are contrary to the Catholic Church.  That is the essence of an analogy.  I was responding to CowFarmer's post.  Perhaps you need to reread his post to understand that I was refuting his argument that Notre Dame should not have allowed Obama to speak because it was against the Catholic Church's rules. 

Once again:

CowFarmer said ND shouldn't allow Obama because his view are against their rules.

I say that's as dumb as not teaching facts of science because they are against the Catholic Church's rules.

There is no direct link between evolution and abortion that I was or am trying to make.  Please prove otherwise if you want to continue discussing my failure to make a link between aborition, evolution, particle physics, or whatever else.

I was criticizing the idea of using Catholic Church policy to determine university policy.  Perhaps you believe that Catholic beliefs should be used to determine what students at a university do or do not learn about (whether it be learning about the morality of abortion, evolution, or any other topic), and that's fine, but it isn't my opinion, which is what I was expressing with my first post.  If you would like to debate that issue, I'm all for it.


--------------------
No knowledge can be certain, if it is not based
upon mathematics or upon some other knowledge
which is itself based upon the mathematical
sciences.
  -Leonardo da Vinci (1425-1519)

Speak well of your enemies.  After all, you made them.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: President Obama's Notre Dame Speech [Re: pothead_bob]
    #10419703 - 05/29/09 03:05 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Abortion is a moral issue that the Catholic Church has taken a stand against.  ND is a Catholic University.  Neither evolution nor particle physics is a moral issue.  There is no hypocrisy in teaching about evolution or particle physics while at the same time decrying abortion as immoral.  It is a total disconnect.


--------------------


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Offlinepothead_bob
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Re: President Obama's Notre Dame Speech [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10420934 - 05/29/09 06:53 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

The catholic church also has a moral standing against homosexuality because they believe it is a sin.  So can ND students not hear a psychology professor teach that homosexuality is not, in fact, a chosen lifestyle, but that people are born that way and are innocent?  That would be going directly against a moral belief that the Catholic church upholds.  You could pick at the analogies all you want, but it's hypocritcal to expect ND to follow 'rules' on some counts, but not others. 

And the Vatican didn't even speak on this issue.  To me, it seems like an argument born out of the minds of strict republican Obama-haters.


--------------------
No knowledge can be certain, if it is not based
upon mathematics or upon some other knowledge
which is itself based upon the mathematical
sciences.
  -Leonardo da Vinci (1425-1519)

Speak well of your enemies.  After all, you made them.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: President Obama's Notre Dame Speech [Re: pothead_bob]
    #10421258 - 05/29/09 07:58 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

> The catholic church also has a moral standing against homosexuality because they believe it is a sin.

Once again you open your mouth and insert your foot when it comes to Catholic dogma.  Please, if you are going to use Catholic dogma as a basis for your arguments, at least research it before using it to save yourself from appearing ignorant.

Quote:

Chastity and homosexuality

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.




> The catholic church also has a moral standing against homosexuality because they believe it is a sin.

Incorrect.  Read the above catechism.  Nowhere does it define homosexuality as sin.  Instead, homosexual acts are defined as "acts of grave depravity" and "contrary to the natural law".

>  So can ND students not hear a psychology professor teach that homosexuality is not, in fact, a chosen lifestyle, but that people are born that way and are innocent?

According to the catechism, the "psychological genesis" of homosexuality "remains largely unexplained."  This leaves the psychological teachings about homosexuality open to the professor.

> That would be going directly against a moral belief that the Catholic church upholds.

According to your mistaken beliefs.  Again, if you are going to use Catholic dogma as the basis for your debate, you should really try and make an effort to understand Catholic dogma rather than assuming that you know what you are talking about.

> You could pick at the analogies all you want, but it's hypocritcal to expect ND to follow 'rules' on some counts, but not others. 

Again, this is your mistake based upon your failed understanding of the Catholic dogma.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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OfflineCowFarmer
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Re: President Obama's Notre Dame Speech [Re: Seuss]
    #10423028 - 05/30/09 02:01 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

pothead_bob said:

You're twisting what I said - please reread my post.  I said it has no place...





Hey pothead_bob.

I want you to read that quote up there. Thanks. I was responding you and all the nice little slander and libel you managed to weasel in there... Then I lost interest and started falling asleep. I'll anwser you later when I feel like putting on my boots to waddle through all the...

Anyways, it would be :birthday: f-a-n-t-a-s-t-i-c :birthday:  if you could just read that quote one more time, you managed to say a very point important word.

To Twist
, which is defined as:
1. A miniature whirlpool or whirlwind resulting when the current of a fluid doubles back on itself
2. To move in a twisting or contorted motion, (especially when struggling)


'Night :hatsoff:


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OfflineCowFarmer
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Re: President Obama's Notre Dame Speech [Re: CowFarmer]
    #10427978 - 05/31/09 02:36 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

**Most of your posts here are filled with weaseling and hate-filled diatribes on the matter of faith and religion. I will do my best to avoid addressing that topic as I believe you believe that you are a believer of rationalism, logic and science. Thus I believe that you would be best persuaded by being addressed with logic, rationalism and science in turn.

Since you so obviously only skimmed over my first posts I ask only ONE thing. That you read this post before answering me. I love debate and debating since I find that it teaches me and makes me question my thoughts. But I will not debate with someone who is twisting and weaseling, that is nothing more than a waste of time and thought.

-------
First let's anwser the first problem that occurs because your skimming over my posts. Why Obama shouldn't have been honored with the platform of giving a commencment speech and further more a LAW degree. Don't skim over this again.
Quote:

CowFarmer said:
In the last couple of years the US bishops issued a statement regarding Catholic institutions and politicians saying "Catholic institutions should not honor those who act in defiance of our fundamental moral principles... [but] We cannot cut off dialogue. ... We will rarely persuade if we have no dialogue or cannot make our case." This was issued in 2004, long before Obama's prime time.
link to statement

Basically to sum it up all nice and pretty. It's kosher if Obama goes to Notre Dame for dialogue and discussion but what he was invited for was nothing of the sort. So that's what caused the uproar.




This is the article, only the first 3 paragraphs. This was published in 2004. Obama was still a whippersnapper then and not our president. This anwsers your argument that these rules were placed by us obama-racist haters (which in fact I said in my first post on this)
Quote:


WASHINGTON (CNS) -- Politicians, who never miss a chance to shake hands or kiss babies, also seem keen on speaking on college campuses and delivering commencement addresses.

But the current dispute over denying Communion to Catholic politicians who dissent from church teaching has also sparked discussion about these same politicians addressing Catholic college students.

Scrutiny of who should and should not speak on Catholic college campuses comes in part from the U.S. Catholic bishops' "Catholics in Political Life" statement released June 18.

The statement does not point a finger specifically at Catholic colleges but includes them in its overall wording, noting that "the Catholic community and Catholic institutions should not honor those who act in defiance of our fundamental moral principles. They should not be given awards, honors or platforms which would suggest support for their actions."




(bolding is all mine)
Now that we have that matter of why ND was acting in defiance let's move on. I'm not going to quote-by-quote all 3 or 5 of your posts, that just get's ungainly.


Quote:

I say that's as dumb as not teaching facts of science because they are against the Catholic Church's rules.





Universities ARE places of higher learning. Pray do tell how inviting Obama for the _commencement_ speech is in fact akin to a biology or psychology class? Commencement speeches are nothing more than a few words of “Good job guys and gals, go get’em tiger!” held in honor for the graduates. 

Deconstruct the word commencement-
Commence
1.Take the first step or steps in carrying out an action
2.Set in motion, cause to start 
Quote:

Doing anything other than that, like teaching things as fact from a 2,000 year old book written by men who may very well have been skitzophrenic, would be the sign of a second rate shithole school, to say the very least.



You may very well be a ‘skitzophrenic’ for all I know and as far as I am concerned your posts in this thread are nothing short of second rate shitholes, to say the least.
The men who have wrote the book have been turned out to be very accurate and one of the best historians of their age, proven. You on the other hand are unproven, abrasive and quite candidly, seen to have proven alot of disinformation.

Actually the rules of the Church are in no way “against” science. In fact a lot of your acclaimed science would not be around without those dumb Catholics and Christians. Take for example some of the world’s greatest scientists:
  • Newton,
    Galileo,
    Copernicus,
    Georges Lemaître.


You might find it interesting that
  • amps,
    volts,
    ohms,
    coulombs,


all are named after the Christian scientists who 'discovered' them.

  • Desacrtes,
    Pascal,
    Ohm,
    Priestly,
    Lavoisier,
    Dalton,
    Faraday,
    Pasteur,
    Brahe,
    Mendel,
    Harvey.
 

Since you have such a deep seated love for evolution I’m sure you know Mendel, the guy who spent his whole entire life as a monk, invented the backbone for evolution. FYI, I made my list short for you to the most prominent ones so you wouldn’t have to spend so much time googling them and trying to prove me wrong.


Hell dude, you spend so much time spewing off falsehoods that you likely picked off the back cover of some new “heavy hitting” atheist’s New York best seller that you don’t even realize what was printed in Science magazine “What is incontrovertible is that a religious impulse guides our motive in sustaining scientific inquiry”



What in your mind is the back bone of science, the key that has allowed our limited knowledge to progress? I would and others would say that it is the scientific method. The method that all children in school are drilled on from the 4th grade up. Guess who was the founder of that? Francis Bacon, a devote Christian and “the inventor of invention” and that’s a pretty hefty title.Oh and let’s mention that the first medical institutions in Europe where founded under the Church.



Some might find it relevant to note here that without the dedication of monks during the middle ages translating and copying thousands of ancient manuscripts our knowledge of the world would have been drastically held back.

It was first several HUNDRED years that monasteries were the only institutions in Europe at all concerned with obtaining, preserving and spreading knowledge. It was because of the church, NOT in lieu, that schools were built and that the first universities were established. (Which by the way taught both theological and secular). Oxford, Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Paris, Rome. All affiliated with the church.






Now tell me, are education and religion at odds with each other?


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Offlinepothead_bob
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Re: President Obama's Notre Dame Speech [Re: Seuss]
    #10430999 - 05/31/09 07:10 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Nowhere does it define homosexuality as sin




"contrary to natural law"... "acts of grave depravity"... "under no circumstances can they be approved"... Just what do you define as sin?  I think Catholic dogma is pretty clear that homosexual acts are sin.  Just saying homosexuality is natural is at odds with the Catholic Church.


--------------------
No knowledge can be certain, if it is not based
upon mathematics or upon some other knowledge
which is itself based upon the mathematical
sciences.
  -Leonardo da Vinci (1425-1519)

Speak well of your enemies.  After all, you made them.


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Offlinepothead_bob
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Re: President Obama's Notre Dame Speech [Re: pothead_bob]
    #10431323 - 05/31/09 08:16 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Wow CowFarmer, that post was quite arrogant and hate-filled.  Kind of hypocritical considering that you were directing similar accusations against me.  Are you Catholic?

I read through the first half of your post and realize that I didn't catch all of your original post.  I replied to your last post and I thought you were only saying that Obama should not have been allowed to speak there because of rules.  I didn't realize you also mentioned the outrage over him being offered a law degree.  For that, I admit error on my part.  That's not to say that I agree with Obama being honored as being against rules.  Before we continue this debate, could you please explain to me how advice given by a few bishops becomes 'church rule'?  Because as far as I could see from your article, the bishops were offering advice (and I believe it even said that in your article), not making rules.  Not to mention that, but the Vatican (which I would think is responsible for actually making 'church rules') remained silent on this whole issue.

As for some of your other colorful comments,

Quote:

This anwsers your argument that these rules were placed by us obama-racist haters (which in fact I said in my first post on this)




Please direct me to where I said that 'obama-racist haters' made up the rules that obama couldn't be honored.

Quote:

You may very well be a ‘skitzophrenic’ for all I know




Why?  Did I claim to talk to God through a burning bush when nobody else was around to witness it? 

Please, inform me as to why you think I'm skitzophrenic, because I find it personally insulting.  Do you even know what skitzophrenia is?

As for the second half of your post, your arguments are not as logical as you claimed them to be.  Firstly, to say that just because those great scientists were Catholic, that Catholicism was the reason that they made such discoveries is horrible reasoning.  If you weren't getting at that, then why even mention all those great catholic scientists?  Secondly, to mention Galileo, the man who was tried by the inquisition and spent the rest of his life under house arrest, all for believing (based on logic and scientific evidence) that the earth was not the center of the universe, is laughable.  To say the church was not against Galileo is absurd.

And please, enlighten me as to where in my posts I argued that religous institutions had no place throughout history in advancing science or technology?  Because it seems like that's what you're assuming in the second half of your post.  If you want my opinion on science vs. religion, I have no problem with religious institutions or any institutions, for that matter, that want to pursue scientific inquiry or storing knowledge, as those monks have that you spoke of.  I do have a problem when those religious institutions step in the way of scientific progress because it doesn't fit their concept of how the world is.  Just because they advanced some science doesn't give them the right to control what is and isn't fact.


--------------------
No knowledge can be certain, if it is not based
upon mathematics or upon some other knowledge
which is itself based upon the mathematical
sciences.
  -Leonardo da Vinci (1425-1519)

Speak well of your enemies.  After all, you made them.


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero


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Re: President Obama's Notre Dame Speech [Re: lonestar2004]
    #10431568 - 05/31/09 09:01 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

> Just what do you define as sin?

Considering we are speaking of Catholicism, it doesn't matter what I define as sin.

> I think Catholic dogma is pretty clear that homosexual acts are sin.

Ah, so now you change the subject and begin debating about homosexual acts rather than homosexual people.  The two are distinctly different in the eyes of the Catholic church.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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