Home | Community | Message Board

MushroomMan Mycology
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: MagicBag.co All-In-One Bags That Don't Suck   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   Bridgetown Botanicals Bridgetown Botanicals   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Kraken Kratom Kratom Capsules for Sale   Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale   North Spore Bulk Substrate   Left Coast Kratom Buy Kratom Extract   Original Sensible Seeds Autoflowering Cannabis Seeds   Mushroom-Hut Liquid Cultures

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4  [ show all ]
Some of these posts are very old and might contain outdated information. You may wish to search for newer posts instead.
OfflineCyber
Ash
Male User Gallery


Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 1,476
Loc: Dearborn Michigan
Last seen: 10 months, 16 days
Identifying compounds required for Ps. Cubensis Growth
    #10395222 - 05/25/09 09:28 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Has anyone taken the time to determine exactly what compounds are required to initiate growth of Ps. Cubensis?

I am not talking about BRF or cow poo but what is needed on a chemical level to initiate growth, What is it that the mushrooms eat?

For example, If I provide the mycelia with a balanced growth formula of

300 ppm Nitrogen
123 ppm of Potassium
195ppm of Phosphorous
280ppm Calcium
75ppm Sulpher
48ppm Magnesium
4ppm Iron
.5 ppm Boron
.7 ppm Manganese
.1 ppm Sinc
.05 ppm Molybdenum
and .1 ppm Copper

will they grow?

Are there other constituents in the soil that the mushrooms live off of that are not present?
If so what are those and in what quantities do they need to be present?

Anyone have any ideas or can anyone point me to any research that has been done into this?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineABC
Stranger
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/16/08
Posts: 1,439
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
Re: Identifying compounds required for Ps. Cubensis Growth [Re: Cyber]
    #10395382 - 05/25/09 10:19 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineLivingston
Space Ranger
Male User Gallery
Registered: 05/15/09
Posts: 223
Loc: Cali
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
Re: Identifying compounds required for Ps. Cubensis Growth [Re: ABC]
    #10395499 - 05/25/09 10:58 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Hey,

I doubt there is a 'perfect'; more likely an ideal range. 

In my opinion:
Decrease Mg (near Fe levels), decrease Ca (just above K levels), increase Mn (just below K levels), and decrease P (near S levels).  But I would use hydrolyzed fish and liquid kelp instead.  Why not use organic?  Hydrolyzed fish is great for microscopic fungi, they use the oils.  For higher fungi the oils are good, but so are the nutrients. 

Most people here say fungi can not use liquid fertilizers but they are wrong.  They do not understand that the bulk sub will absorb these fertilizers, if they are salt form then by CEC and AEC.  If you use organic like I do as liquid kelp then the bulk will hold the nutrients but not 'absorb' unless in ion form. 

Then when the mycelium 'eats' the bulk it also 'eats' the liquid fertilizers the bulk sub holds.  But you can't use "soil" for P.cubensis.  Use horse manure, corn cob, compost, etc (not coir in my opinion).  I also find it useful to use a wetting agent like a little yucca extract or Tween20 or Tween80.


--------------------
Peace and Pasta :mushroom2:

Edited by Livingston (05/25/09 12:03 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineeVenom
DRIFT on toBATTLE
Male User Gallery


Registered: 08/25/07
Posts: 869
Loc: Florida
Last seen: 6 months, 11 days
Re: Identifying compounds required for Ps. Cubensis Growth [Re: Livingston]
    #10395519 - 05/25/09 11:04 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

well you also need calories! Sugars,Fat etc...

will a human grow by taking only multi-bitamins!


--------------------
eVenom

"Some of us like a nice buzz, while others want to climb a screaming volcano naked to meet god."
RR

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineLivingston
Space Ranger
Male User Gallery
Registered: 05/15/09
Posts: 223
Loc: Cali
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
Re: Identifying compounds required for Ps. Cubensis Growth [Re: eVenom]
    #10395530 - 05/25/09 11:06 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

eVenom said:
well you also need calories! Sugars,Fat etc...

will a human grow by taking only multi-bitamins!




Good point...and proteins and chitin (chitosan) too :smile:  That's why I suggested hydrolyzed fish and liquid kelp.  Using an inert sub would be a neat test.  Something like vermiculite maybe? 

For protein the hydrolyzed fish is fine.  Too add chitosan I include 5% powdered oyster shell flour to my bulk sub.  This also adds Ca.

A neat test would be to use General Hydroponics "Chi", a liquid chitosan salt which used to active the SAR response in higher plants.  That liquid chitosan might be useful in the bulk sub...(NPK = 0.2-0.0-0.2)
http://www.hydroponicsoutlet.com/General-Hydroponics-Chi-Quart-p/gh1332.htm

I am trying to source chitinese (sp?) but it's expensive. 

I add additional microbes to my bulk sub before I pasteurize.  The additional microbes offer a good deal of protein, nitrogen and chitin to the mycelium.

Oh yea, manganese at specific quantity has been shown to increase yields of Agaricus bisporus by around 9-12%.  I'll find the studies and post the info.

Edited by Livingston (05/25/09 12:05 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineLivingston
Space Ranger
Male User Gallery
Registered: 05/15/09
Posts: 223
Loc: Cali
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
Re: Identifying compounds required for Ps. Cubensis Growth [Re: Livingston]
    #10395554 - 05/25/09 11:13 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Here ya go:


"Manganese and other micronutrient additions to improve yield of Agaricus bisporus"

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6V24-4GHSGGF-1&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=01ce4acd9d5042bdace40cbe8a374fc6

Quote:

Abstract

Previous experiments have demonstrated that significant increases in yield of Agaricus bisporus mushrooms were achieved by adding a micronutrient rich fertilizer, Micromax®, to the compost. This study was performed to determine the mineral(s) that are responsible for this yield improvement. An initial experiment determined that manganese was the mineral of primary importance; addition of 184 mg kg−1 Mn increased yield by 10.8%, compared to the control. Subsequent experiments demonstrated that the addition of manganese to the compost has a stimulatory effect on mushroom yields. Significant yield increases, ranging from 9.6% to 11.8% (compared to the control), were observed as a result of manganese additions varying between 50 and 300 mg kg−1. Also, data from the last set of experiments indicated that Micromax additions always resulted in greater yields indicating that micronutrients in Micromax, in addition to manganese, may be responsible for increasing yields.








"EXAMINATION OF THE EFFECT OF THE ADDITION OF MANGANESE TO SUBSTRATES OF CULTIVATED MUSHROOM (AGARICUS BISPORUS)"

http://www.actahort.org/member/showpdf?booknrarnr=469_48

Quote:

Abstract:
The importance of microelements in the lifecycle of mushrooms, e.g. in the cultivation of Pleurotus spp. has been often emphasized in the literature. We examined the effect of manganese added to the substrate (composted mixture of wheat straw, horse manure, and chicken manure) in the cultivation of Agaricus bisporus, knowing that the decomposition of straw is effected by the presence of manganese. It was found that the manganese content of the fruit body did not increase with such treatment; however, it increases the output of the mushroom, showing that manganese has a stimulating effect on growth.







"Cadmium and manganese in contrast to calcium reduce yield and nutritional values of the edible mushroom Pleurotus pulmonarius"

http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=2228851

Quote:

Résumé / Abstract
Pleurotus pulmonarius is a species of the oyster mushroom which has become the second most popularly cultivated mushroom in the world. In this study, we show that renewed fruiting from excised stipes can be used as a simple and rapid in vitro bioassay system to detect fruiting modulators. We used this and conventional cultivation techniques to examine the effects of cadmium, a potential contaminant from industrial sources, calcium, which is an ingredient in mushroom compost, and manganese, which has been claimed to improve the yield of P. ostreatus. All the three metallic salts did not affect sporulation. Calcium chloride addition shortened the time taken for the mushroom to fully cover the cultivation compost and improved yield. Insoluble calcium salts at higher concentrations had a similar though less pronounced effect. The calcium and total amino acid contents of fruit bodies also increased. Compost supplementation with calcium is desirable for cultivation of the oyster mushroom but not indispensable since the straw-based cultivation substrate is itself able to provide the required minerals. By contrast, manganese chloride retarded mycelial growth and decreased yield but increased the total amino acid content in the stipe whilst manganese sulphate did not enhance accumulation of manganese into fruit bodies. Excess manganese induced browning of vegetative tissues. Cadmium ions did not kill the oyster mushroom at 4.5 mM but reduced yield by 50%. At this concentration cadmium decreased the total amino acid content and affected the amino acid profile but did not affect the form and shape of the fruit bodies. Pleurotus pulmonarius concentrated cadmium to such an extent that consumption of as little as 20 g (o.w.) of the most contaminated samples would exceed the weekly limit tolerated by humans and thus pose a health hazard. Monitoring the heavy metal contents of mushrooms marketed for food is, therefore, advised as the source of the substrate for cultivation is usually not known.






EDIT:

Micromax by Scotts is what that study was referring to:


Guaranteed Analysis 
  • Calcium 6.0%
  • Magnesium 3.0%
  • Sulfur 12.0%
  • Boron 0.1%
  • Copper 1.0%
  • Iron 17.0%
  • Manganese 2.5%
  • Molybdenum 0.05%
  • Zinc 1.0%


--------------------
Peace and Pasta :mushroom2:

Edited by Livingston (05/25/09 11:53 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineeVenom
DRIFT on toBATTLE
Male User Gallery


Registered: 08/25/07
Posts: 869
Loc: Florida
Last seen: 6 months, 11 days
Re: Identifying compounds required for Ps. Cubensis Growth [Re: Livingston]
    #10396066 - 05/25/09 01:33 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Livingston said:
Good point...and proteins and chitin (chitosan) too :smile:  That's why I suggested hydrolyzed fish and liquid kelp.  Using an inert sub would be a neat test.  Something like vermiculite maybe? 







Well If you want a inert substrate I wouldn't use verm as it is use by the some mushrooms..

in fact you can colonize and fruit in plain verm even thou is a mineral

ofcourse is not the greatest sub but you could!


--------------------
eVenom

"Some of us like a nice buzz, while others want to climb a screaming volcano naked to meet god."
RR

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblefastfred
Old Hand
Male User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 6,899
Loc: Dark side of the moon
Re: Identifying compounds required for Ps. Cubensis Growth [Re: eVenom]
    #10396224 - 05/25/09 02:13 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

eVenom said:
in fact you can colonize and fruit in plain verm even thou is a mineral

ofcourse is not the greatest sub but you could!





Prove it or quit making stuff up.  Vermiculite is not capable of fruiting anything.


See this post if you want mroe details on nutritional requirements.

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/10211435#10211435

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineLivingston
Space Ranger
Male User Gallery
Registered: 05/15/09
Posts: 223
Loc: Cali
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
Re: Identifying compounds required for Ps. Cubensis Growth [Re: eVenom]
    #10396235 - 05/25/09 02:15 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Hey,

Good point, but I'd rather not see a rehash of whether of not verm is a fungal food source.  I do not believe it is.  FWIW, MS or LC doesn't colonize sterilized plain verm, it's been tried many times without success.  I have not seen any tests using G2V but I expect the same resutls.  I have yet to see anyone fruit off of plain verm.  No one knows if it's used as a food source by mycelium, or if it's even used by the mycelium at all, that's only a theory formed from first hand observation, not science. 

The reason I mentioned verm is because it's inert and as close to a neutral substrate I can think of in terms of it's low nutrients, no carbs, no proteins, no sugars, no chitosan, etc, etc.


--------------------
Peace and Pasta :mushroom2:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineLivingston
Space Ranger
Male User Gallery
Registered: 05/15/09
Posts: 223
Loc: Cali
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
Re: Identifying compounds required for Ps. Cubensis Growth [Re: fastfred]
    #10396253 - 05/25/09 02:18 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Hey FF,

Quote:

fastfred said:


See this post if you want mroe details on nutritional requirements.

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/10211435#10211435




I was thinking about your question in that thread regarding N in the MMM agar.  Was the mycelium fruited?  If not that could be why there is not N added...just a thought.

P.S.
I'm still doing background research on the UV-c mutation stuff.  I'll start that thread when I have more info.  I get my bulbs in tomorrow and the UV-c meter next week or so.

Thanks


--------------------
Peace and Pasta :mushroom2:

Edited by Livingston (05/25/09 02:18 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineeVenom
DRIFT on toBATTLE
Male User Gallery


Registered: 08/25/07
Posts: 869
Loc: Florida
Last seen: 6 months, 11 days
Re: Identifying compounds required for Ps. Cubensis Growth [Re: Livingston]
    #10396423 - 05/25/09 02:49 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I should have been more specific it a bulk substrate so you don't use ms or lc to create spawn! but if you use grain 2 verm it works or the well known PF-Tek is based on this that is why you get more shrooms from BRF cakes than the amount of BRF that you put in it. it not magic!

The same thing was said about coir and now you have coir only grows!

also in the PF-Tek if you use coir it under performs! and coir holds as much water and air as verm!


--------------------
eVenom

"Some of us like a nice buzz, while others want to climb a screaming volcano naked to meet god."
RR

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineLivingston
Space Ranger
Male User Gallery
Registered: 05/15/09
Posts: 223
Loc: Cali
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
Re: Identifying compounds required for Ps. Cubensis Growth [Re: eVenom]
    #10396473 - 05/25/09 02:58 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Hey again,

I hope this discussion doesn't get hijacked to verm wars.  But for the sake of clarity.  Straight verm has not been fruited from that I'm aware of.  When you add grain spawn you are adding food source.  So one (I'm not referring to you, or anyone in particular) can't say with credibility that verm can be fruited from.  It's still an unproven theory...

Coir and verm are totally different substances.

Peace and Pasta :mushroom2:


--------------------
Peace and Pasta :mushroom2:

Edited by Livingston (05/25/09 02:58 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineeVenom
DRIFT on toBATTLE
Male User Gallery


Registered: 08/25/07
Posts: 869
Loc: Florida
Last seen: 6 months, 11 days
Re: Identifying compounds required for Ps. Cubensis Growth [Re: Livingston]
    #10396528 - 05/25/09 03:07 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Quote:

Not in vermiculite (which doesn't contain nutrients, it's just used to add water reservoirs to substrates and casing layers)




Don't be so sure about that.  Mushroom mycelium will fully colonize vermiculite and fruit from it.  It's a bulk substrate material for many species, even though it's mineral.  I've seen brf cakes which are 2/3 verm shrink down to the size of dollar pancakes after 7 or 8 flushes.  Obviously, the mycelium has consumed the verm too.
RR




http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/2390329/fpart/7/vc/1

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/9624996/fpart/2/vc/1

I am not trying to hijack this tread I am just saying that if you what a inert substrate don't use verm as it will be used be consumed by the mycelium and it will defeat the purpose


--------------------
eVenom

"Some of us like a nice buzz, while others want to climb a screaming volcano naked to meet god."
RR

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineLivingston
Space Ranger
Male User Gallery
Registered: 05/15/09
Posts: 223
Loc: Cali
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
Re: Identifying compounds required for Ps. Cubensis Growth [Re: eVenom]
    #10396571 - 05/25/09 03:13 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Fair enough, I don't want to argue, we can disagree and get along.  :heart:

Can you think of any substrate options?

Thanks

Peace and Pasta :mushroom2:


--------------------
Peace and Pasta :mushroom2:

Edited by Livingston (05/26/09 10:42 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineeVenom
DRIFT on toBATTLE
Male User Gallery


Registered: 08/25/07
Posts: 869
Loc: Florida
Last seen: 6 months, 11 days
Re: Identifying compounds required for Ps. Cubensis Growth [Re: Livingston]
    #10396797 - 05/25/09 03:51 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Rockwool cubes used in hydroponic systems, perlite, or a synthetic sponge!


--------------------
eVenom

"Some of us like a nice buzz, while others want to climb a screaming volcano naked to meet god."
RR

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineLivingston
Space Ranger
Male User Gallery
Registered: 05/15/09
Posts: 223
Loc: Cali
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
Re: Identifying compounds required for Ps. Cubensis Growth [Re: eVenom]
    #10396864 - 05/25/09 04:04 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Hey,

I think growth in rockwool would be poor.  Sponge is a good idea.  Perlite I think would not work at all.  Sponge is a really good idea :smile:  I wonder if natural would be better, though way worse in an environmental depletion sense.

Edited by Livingston (05/25/09 04:08 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineCyber
Ash
Male User Gallery


Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 1,476
Loc: Dearborn Michigan
Last seen: 10 months, 16 days
Re: Identifying compounds required for Ps. Cubensis Growth [Re: eVenom]
    #10396924 - 05/25/09 04:16 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

eVenom, RR is not 100% correct in his assertion that mycelia can live off of vermiculite and his sited experiments or spawning grains to vermiculite have the minor issue of the grain providing the needed food source. Inoculating Hydrated vermiculite with a live Liquid culture produces no growth. The idea of a cake getting smaller with each flush could be due to the removal of small amounts of colonized vermiculite with the removal of the mushroom body. Which is common when harvesting from a cake.
However, It would not surprise me to find that the mycelia are extracting the Mg from the vermiculite as a required micronutrient for there growth.

Think of the mycelia like a root system, Tree roots can grow into cracks in rocks and concrete but they do not use it as a nutrient source. The mycelia can grow into and over items that they are not using as a food source. In doing so it may help to break the items down into smaller pieces which other natural processes can use later.

As to using Rockwool, sure ill give it a try and document it. You also mention the use of rockwool and perlite in hydroponic systems, well vermiculite is used as a holding medium in hydroponics as well.

Livingston and FF, thanks for the info!

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineeVenom
DRIFT on toBATTLE
Male User Gallery


Registered: 08/25/07
Posts: 869
Loc: Florida
Last seen: 6 months, 11 days
Re: Identifying compounds required for Ps. Cubensis Growth [Re: eVenom]
    #10397264 - 05/25/09 05:13 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

OK! the only thing I am pointing out is that for this particular thread the idea of using verm is not great because the fact that it may be providing other nuts other than the ones listed here... and possibly give a false POSITIVE!


Quote:

Livingston said:
Good point...and proteins and chitin (chitosan) too :smile:  That's why I suggested hydrolyzed fish and liquid kelp.  Using an inert sub would be a neat test.  Something like vermiculite maybe? 






That's way I say use other inert substrate like a synthetic sponge! and not verm!

(you wouldn't use Hpoo to try this!!  That would not give you a real perspective of what compounds were responsible for the success!! why risk it with verm!)


--------------------
eVenom

"Some of us like a nice buzz, while others want to climb a screaming volcano naked to meet god."
RR

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineRogerRabbitM
Bans for Pleasure
Male User Gallery


Registered: 03/26/03
Posts: 42,214
Loc: Seattle
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
Trusted Cultivator
OG Cultivator
Re: Identifying compounds required for Ps. Cubensis Growth [Re: eVenom]
    #10401153 - 05/26/09 09:56 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Inoculating Hydrated vermiculite with a live Liquid culture produces no growth.




Ditto for inoculating manure, straw, coir, etc., with live liquid culture.  It produces no growth.  That's why we use grains.

Quote:

For example, If I provide the mycelia with a balanced growth formula of

300 ppm Nitrogen
123 ppm of Potassium
195ppm of Phosphorous
280ppm Calcium
75ppm Sulpher
48ppm Magnesium
4ppm Iron
.5 ppm Boron
.7 ppm Manganese
.1 ppm Sinc
.05 ppm Molybdenum
and .1 ppm Copper

will they grow?




Mushrooms 'eat' food on a cellular level.  Many years ago I offered a free microscope to the first person who could produce a ten gram fruit hydroponically.  To date, there's been no takers.  I've seen a few tiny fruits form on the top layer of mycelium when a grain LC is left for months, but the grain is providing solid food, thus it isn't true hydro.  If you can put chemicals on rockwool and actually grow a mushroom in an experiment that can be repeated, you can get a scope out of the deal.
RR


--------------------
Download Let's Grow Mushrooms



semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineLivingston
Space Ranger
Male User Gallery
Registered: 05/15/09
Posts: 223
Loc: Cali
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
Re: Identifying compounds required for Ps. Cubensis Growth [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #10401220 - 05/26/09 10:12 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Hi,

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Quote:

Inoculating Hydrated vermiculite with a live Liquid culture produces no growth.




Ditto for inoculating manure, straw, coir, etc., with live liquid culture.  It produces no growth.  That's why we use grains.




Agar has done it a few times before with compost in jars (no grains).  I have seen solely compost and/or manure inoculated and it colonized fine (I can't remember which one, but I know Agar did compost).


Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Quote:

For example, If I provide the mycelia with a balanced growth formula of

300 ppm Nitrogen
123 ppm of Potassium
195ppm of Phosphorous
280ppm Calcium
75ppm Sulpher
48ppm Magnesium
4ppm Iron
.5 ppm Boron
.7 ppm Manganese
.1 ppm Sinc
.05 ppm Molybdenum
and .1 ppm Copper

will they grow?




Mushrooms 'eat' food on a cellular level.  Many years ago I offered a free microscope to the first person who could produce a ten gram fruit hydroponically.  To date, there's been no takers.  I've seen a few tiny fruits form on the top layer of mycelium when a grain LC is left for months, but the grain is providing solid food, thus it isn't true hydro.  If you can put chemicals on rockwool and actually grow a mushroom in an experiment that can be repeated, you can get a scope out of the deal.

RR




I already have a nice microscope but if I do this would you be OK with doing some kind of inexpensive raffle/lottery (<$150) in mush cult and the proceeds can be donated to the shroomery?  Can I use organic or only chemical salt?

I will start this in a few weeks.  I will use a few different subs like synthetic sponge, etc.  Thanks! :smile:


--------------------
Peace and Pasta :mushroom2:

Edited by Livingston (05/26/09 10:42 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMr E Guest
partly animal
 User Gallery


Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 635
Loc: 404: not found Flag
Last seen: 8 years, 2 months
Re: Identifying compounds required for Ps. Cubensis Growth [Re: Cyber]
    #10401250 - 05/26/09 10:20 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Cyber said:
eVenom, RR is not 100% correct in his assertion that mycelia can live off of vermiculite [...]
However, It would not surprise me to find that the mycelia are extracting the Mg from the vermiculite as a required micronutrient for there growth.

Think of the mycelia like a root system, Tree roots can grow into cracks in rocks and concrete but they do not use it as a nutrient source. The mycelia can grow into and over items that they are not using as a food source. In doing so it may help to break the items down into smaller pieces which other natural processes can use later.

[...]



I thought rocks were the primary mineral nutrient sources for quite a few plants (including trees)... broken down into smaller particles such as stones, sand and clay to form - in combination with diverse organic matter - the group of materials known as "soil". If rocks are not used as a nutrient source, then why is volcanic rock dust so beneficial to my garden?


--------------------
Be joyful. This could be the only chance you get.

All of the above posts are the fevered imaginings of a deluded mind, itself entirely the fictional creation of a somewhat peculiar author with a bizarre sense of humour.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineCyber
Ash
Male User Gallery


Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 1,476
Loc: Dearborn Michigan
Last seen: 10 months, 16 days
Re: Identifying compounds required for Ps. Cubensis Growth [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #10401257 - 05/26/09 10:22 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Ditto for inoculating manure, straw, coir, etc., with live liquid culture.  It produces no growth.  That's why we use grains.





Ill have to give it a shot, I have inoculated mixtures of manure with alfalfa and gotten it to grow. I don't think coir has enough nutrients to grow the mushrooms by it self. I am not completely convinced that coir is as nutritious as some believe.

Quote:


Mushrooms 'eat' food on a cellular level.  Many years ago I offered a free microscope to the first person who could produce a ten gram fruit hydroponically.  To date, there's been no takers.  I've seen a few tiny fruits form on the top layer of mycelium when a grain LC is left for months, but the grain is providing solid food, thus it isn't true hydro.  If you can put chemicals on rockwool and actually grow a mushroom in an experiment that can be repeated, you can get a scope out of the deal.
RR




ooo, I have rockwool and you are on! Tell me is it a standard light microscope or an SEM?

:grin:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineLivingston
Space Ranger
Male User Gallery
Registered: 05/15/09
Posts: 223
Loc: Cali
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
Re: Identifying compounds required for Ps. Cubensis Growth [Re: Mr E Guest]
    #10401281 - 05/26/09 10:27 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Mr E Guest said:

I thought rocks were the primary mineral nutrient sources for quite a few plants (including trees)... broken down into smaller particles such as stones, sand and clay to form - in combination with diverse organic matter - the group of materials known as "soil". If rocks are not used as a nutrient source, then why is volcanic rock dust so beneficial to my garden?




No.  Plants are not like mushrooms, they can not 'eat' on their own.  They need the Soilfood Web to breakdown foodstuffs (including soft rock phosphate for example) which offer ions to the roots which they can absorb, that and PGRs, etc.

Rock dust is good for the microbes.


--------------------
Peace and Pasta :mushroom2:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMr E Guest
partly animal
 User Gallery


Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 635
Loc: 404: not found Flag
Last seen: 8 years, 2 months
Re: Identifying compounds required for Ps. Cubensis Growth [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #10401283 - 05/26/09 10:28 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
[...]

Mushrooms 'eat' food on a cellular level.  Many years ago I offered a free microscope to the first person who could produce a ten gram fruit hydroponically.  To date, there's been no takers.  I've seen a few tiny fruits form on the top layer of mycelium when a grain LC is left for months, but the grain is providing solid food, thus it isn't true hydro.  If you can put chemicals on rockwool and actually grow a mushroom in an experiment that can be repeated, you can get a scope out of the deal.
RR



So you're essentially saying mushrooms need a solid food source in order to fruit? The question then is... why? I'm tempted by the microscope offer as this thread has been giving me a few daft and outlandish cultivation ideas. But not stupid and ill-informed ones (I hope!)


--------------------
Be joyful. This could be the only chance you get.

All of the above posts are the fevered imaginings of a deluded mind, itself entirely the fictional creation of a somewhat peculiar author with a bizarre sense of humour.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineLivingston
Space Ranger
Male User Gallery
Registered: 05/15/09
Posts: 223
Loc: Cali
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
Re: Identifying compounds required for Ps. Cubensis Growth [Re: Cyber]
    #10401293 - 05/26/09 10:31 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Hey,

Quote:


Mushrooms 'eat' food on a cellular level.  Many years ago I offered a free microscope to the first person who could produce a ten gram fruit hydroponically.  To date, there's been no takers.  I've seen a few tiny fruits form on the top layer of mycelium when a grain LC is left for months, but the grain is providing solid food, thus it isn't true hydro.  If you can put chemicals on rockwool and actually grow a mushroom in an experiment that can be repeated, you can get a scope out of the deal.
RR




Quote:

ooo, I have rockwool and you are on! Tell me is it a standard light microscope or an SEM?

:grin:




I believe it's a binocular light microscope if I remember from past RR posts.  So it's seems you and I have a little race going? Eh?  :smile:  RR's offer has always been open to anyone, first come wins.  I hope I do because then all shroomery will benefit!

Good luck to you bro!  May the most psychedelic shroomer win!

Edited by Livingston (05/26/09 10:39 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMr E Guest
partly animal
 User Gallery


Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 635
Loc: 404: not found Flag
Last seen: 8 years, 2 months
Re: Identifying compounds required for Ps. Cubensis Growth [Re: Livingston]
    #10401298 - 05/26/09 10:33 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Livingston said:
Hey,

I think growth in rockwool would be poor.  Sponge is a good idea.  Perlite I think would not work at all.  Sponge is a really good idea :smile:  I wonder if natural would be better, though way worse in an environmental depletion sense.



Why not perlite? Just wondering.


--------------------
Be joyful. This could be the only chance you get.

All of the above posts are the fevered imaginings of a deluded mind, itself entirely the fictional creation of a somewhat peculiar author with a bizarre sense of humour.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineLivingston
Space Ranger
Male User Gallery
Registered: 05/15/09
Posts: 223
Loc: Cali
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
Re: Identifying compounds required for Ps. Cubensis Growth [Re: Livingston]
    #10401309 - 05/26/09 10:36 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

One thing,

It seems to make this valid we need to use a non-nutritive spawn too.  Something like rockwool (for example) inoculated with LC.  Or I was thinking of using grain spawn, but only spawning a very small amount of grain in a small corner of the bulk sub.  When/if the mycelium colonizes the sub areas without the spawn break off the spawn corner.  Any other ideas on how to limit variables?

Another problem is what is "non-nutritive"?  To me vermiculite is non-nutritive as much as rockwool is.  So that's an issue.  I can only think of one substance which should work and is non-nutritive...but I won't give away my main advantage! :smile:


--------------------
Peace and Pasta :mushroom2:

Edited by Livingston (05/26/09 10:41 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineLivingston
Space Ranger
Male User Gallery
Registered: 05/15/09
Posts: 223
Loc: Cali
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
Re: Identifying compounds required for Ps. Cubensis Growth [Re: Mr E Guest]
    #10401314 - 05/26/09 10:37 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Mr E Guest said:
Quote:

Livingston said:
Hey,

I think growth in rockwool would be poor.  Sponge is a good idea.  Perlite I think would not work at all.  Sponge is a really good idea :smile:  I wonder if natural would be better, though way worse in an environmental depletion sense.




Why not perlite? Just wondering.




Poor CEC and AEC.  In terms of organics perlite will not hold nutrients well.  Perlite holds little water.


--------------------
Peace and Pasta :mushroom2:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMr E Guest
partly animal
 User Gallery


Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 635
Loc: 404: not found Flag
Last seen: 8 years, 2 months
Re: Identifying compounds required for Ps. Cubensis Growth [Re: Livingston]
    #10401346 - 05/26/09 10:46 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Livingston said:
Quote:

Mr E Guest said:

I thought rocks were the primary mineral nutrient sources for quite a few plants (including trees)... broken down into smaller particles such as stones, sand and clay to form - in combination with diverse organic matter - the group of materials known as "soil". If rocks are not used as a nutrient source, then why is volcanic rock dust so beneficial to my garden?




No.  Plants are not like mushrooms, they can not 'eat' on their own.  They need the Soilfood Web to breakdown foodstuffs (including soft rock phosphate for example) which offer ions to the roots which they can absorb, that and PGRs, etc.

Rock dust is good for the microbes.



Thank you. It's a question of degrees of separation, I suppose. Certainly not all weathered rock minerals come from the action of tree roots, either! It pays to look at the bigger picture (eg., Soilfood web). I have a feeling this is why the piecemeal identification of fungal nutrients and the reassembly of the pure substances into a growth medium has so far failed to produce a successful fruiting as per RR's challenge. Maybe that and the guys who propose "hydroponic shrooms" might have a tendency to be total flakes. :smile:

But, back to the original point of this thread, the nutritional data referred to will come in very useful. Thank you.:thumbup:


--------------------
Be joyful. This could be the only chance you get.

All of the above posts are the fevered imaginings of a deluded mind, itself entirely the fictional creation of a somewhat peculiar author with a bizarre sense of humour.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineLivingston
Space Ranger
Male User Gallery
Registered: 05/15/09
Posts: 223
Loc: Cali
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
Re: Identifying compounds required for Ps. Cubensis Growth [Re: Mr E Guest]
    #10401448 - 05/26/09 11:11 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Mr E Guest said:
Maybe that and the guys who propose "hydroponic shrooms" might have a tendency to be total flakes. :smile:





Haha.  Maybe so!  :smile:


--------------------
Peace and Pasta :mushroom2:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineeVenom
DRIFT on toBATTLE
Male User Gallery


Registered: 08/25/07
Posts: 869
Loc: Florida
Last seen: 6 months, 11 days
Re: Identifying compounds required for Ps. Cubensis Growth [Re: Livingston]
    #10403566 - 05/26/09 06:30 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

This Could be good!


:wow:


--------------------
eVenom

"Some of us like a nice buzz, while others want to climb a screaming volcano naked to meet god."
RR

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineLivingston
Space Ranger
Male User Gallery
Registered: 05/15/09
Posts: 223
Loc: Cali
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
Re: Identifying compounds required for Ps. Cubensis Growth [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #10403587 - 05/26/09 06:35 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Hi RR,

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Quote:

Inoculating Hydrated vermiculite with a live Liquid culture produces no growth.




Ditto for inoculating manure, straw, coir, etc., with live liquid culture.  It produces no growth.  That's why we use grains.




I happened to find a really interesting bit on info on this very subject a little while ago.  I wasn't even looking for info but there it was :smile:


It turns out that from circa 1790 to 1930 sterilized horse manure was the only spawn used for inoculation by mycelium.  Scientists at the US Department of Agriculture were the ones to develop sterilized horse manure as spawn in the late 18th century.  It was not until 1930, when a scientist at the Penn State Mushroom Science and Technology Department named James W. Siden found sterilized wheat grain was a far better spawn then manure.  A few years later it was found whole grain is the best spawn.  :mushroom2:


Here is a quote from the crappy book "Psilocybin Mushroom Handbook" by L.G Nicholas and Kerry Ogame

Quote:

...In the late 18th century, the American mushroom grower and researcher William Falconer published a book entitled "Mushrooms: How to Grow Them; a Practical Treatise on Mushroom Culture for Profit and Pleasure", which compiled recent discoveries in Agaricus cultivation, and included a chapter on the benefits of a "casing layer".[...]

    Several years after Falconer's book was published (circa 1790), scientists working at the U.S. Department of Agriculture discovered that many of the contamination problems previously associated with mushroom production were eliminated by using horse manure that had been subjected to  heat sterilization before being inoculated with Agaricus mycelium.  This process created in essence what was the first pure mushroom "spawn".  Then, in 1930, while working at Pennsylvania State College (still today one of the leading centers of mushroom cultivation research), mycologist James W. Siden found that sterilized wheat grain made an even more effective and robust spawn substrate.  Whole grain would in time prove itself a nearly universal spawn medium and has remained the medium of choice for the cultivation of many species of mushroom to this day.




--------------------
Peace and Pasta :mushroom2:

Edited by Livingston (05/26/09 06:36 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineLivingston
Space Ranger
Male User Gallery
Registered: 05/15/09
Posts: 223
Loc: Cali
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
Re: Identifying compounds required for Ps. Cubensis Growth [Re: Livingston]
    #10403633 - 05/26/09 06:44 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Another neat note:

Dennis and Terence McKenna (O.T. Oss and O.N. Oeric respectively) used James W. Sidens grain spawn method when writing their book "Psilocybin:  Magic Mushroom Grower's Guide".  Which in turn, along with Dr. Steven H. Pollock's book "Magic Mushroom Cutlivation", spawned everything we have today in regards to P.cubensis, and the existence of the shroomery too it would seem :thumbup:


--------------------
Peace and Pasta :mushroom2:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineLivingston
Space Ranger
Male User Gallery
Registered: 05/15/09
Posts: 223
Loc: Cali
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
Re: Identifying compounds required for Ps. Cubensis Growth [Re: Livingston]
    #10403965 - 05/26/09 07:53 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Wait a second...18th century??? That can't be right!

I told you guys that book SUCKS! haha.  It should be the early 20th century.  William Falconer published his book in 1901.  So that means the US Dept of AG used horse manure as sterilized spawn circa 1910.

Sorry for quoteing a stupid book without double checking.  I mean, god damn, the US was formed in what 1776?


--------------------
Peace and Pasta :mushroom2:

Edited by Livingston (05/26/09 07:54 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineRogerRabbitM
Bans for Pleasure
Male User Gallery


Registered: 03/26/03
Posts: 42,214
Loc: Seattle
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
Trusted Cultivator
OG Cultivator
Re: Identifying compounds required for Ps. Cubensis Growth [Re: Livingston]
    #10405240 - 05/26/09 11:32 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Livingston said:
No one knows if it's used as a food source by mycelium, or if it's even used by the mycelium at all, that's only a theory formed from first hand observation, not science. 





:lol:  Sorry, but that cracked me up.

If a theory formed from first hand observation is not science, then what the hell is?  Do you think Sir Isaac Newton had access to some fancy accelerometer when he wrote his 2'nd law? 

Science didn't suddenly fall off a turnip truck and magically appear with the development of specialized equipment.
RR


--------------------
Download Let's Grow Mushrooms



semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineLivingston
Space Ranger
Male User Gallery
Registered: 05/15/09
Posts: 223
Loc: Cali
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
Re: Identifying compounds required for Ps. Cubensis Growth [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #10405409 - 05/27/09 12:05 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Quote:

Livingston said:
No one knows if it's used as a food source by mycelium, or if it's even used by the mycelium at all, that's only a theory formed from first hand observation, not science. 





:lol:  Sorry, but that cracked me up.

If a theory formed from first hand observation is not science, then what the hell is?  Do you think Sir Isaac Newton had access to some fancy accelerometer when he wrote his 2'nd law? 

Science didn't suddenly fall off a turnip truck and magically appear with the development of specialized equipment.
RR





Hi :smile:

To me science as a verb is the act of intentionally having a cause and effect.  Not a apple which fell by accident and then gave rise to the theory, which then needed to be proven before it could be considered science.  Science as a noun is the info and data you get after carrying out experiment with the scientific method.  And by ideally having others repeat your method and get the same results.  Science can be proven and repeated by others, otherwise it's only faith...

Theory is the spark of scientific method.


--------------------
Peace and Pasta :mushroom2:

Edited by Livingston (05/27/09 01:42 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineCyber
Ash
Male User Gallery


Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 1,476
Loc: Dearborn Michigan
Last seen: 10 months, 16 days
Re: Identifying compounds required for Ps. Cubensis Growth [Re: Livingston]
    #10406175 - 05/27/09 06:09 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Livingston said:
To me science as a verb is the act of intentionally having a cause and effect. 





Science has proven that effect can precede cause so that kinda blows your definition. 

Quote:


Not a apple which fell by accident and then gave rise to the theory,





Apple falls and a hypothesis is produced, is that not cause and effect?

Quote:


which then needed to be proven before it could be considered science. 





First off a hypothesis/theory can not be proven, it can only be disproven.

Quote:


Science as a noun is the info and data you get after carrying out experiment with the scientific method.  And by ideally having others repeat your method and get the same results.  Science can be proven and repeated by others, otherwise it's only faith...

Theory is the spark of scientific method.




Experience and observation are the spark of the scientific method. It goes like this

1) Characterization from experience and observation

2) Hypothesis: a proposed explanation

3) Deduction: prediction from the hypothesis

4) Test and experiment

5) If the hypothesis stands up to repeated testing and is not proven wrong it becomes a theory.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineLivingston
Space Ranger
Male User Gallery
Registered: 05/15/09
Posts: 223
Loc: Cali
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
Re: Identifying compounds required for Ps. Cubensis Growth [Re: Cyber]
    #10406336 - 05/27/09 07:46 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Cyber said:
Quote:

Livingston said:
To me science as a verb is the act of intentionally having a cause and effect. 





Science has proven that effect can precede cause so that kinda blows your definition. 





Aren't you splitting hairs?  I was not speaking in absolutes.  If you can you please give me one example of effect proceeding cause I would be very interested indeed!...



Quote:

Cyber said:
Quote:

Livingston said:
Not a apple which fell by accident and then gave rise to the theory,





Apple falls and a hypothesis is produced, is that not cause and effect?




Yes it is cause and effect but it's still not a scientific 'fact' until it is proven to be true.  And it's not the act of science until he developes a working hypothesis, but that's not the same as being 'proven'.  Up until that point it's only theory...



Quote:

Cyber said:
Quote:

Livingston said:
which then needed to be proven before it could be considered science. 





First off a hypothesis/theory can not be proven, it can only be disproven.




Hows that?  Ummm, hypothesis has been 'proven'  as correct in countless studies (until it's later proven wrong, hehe).  Hypothesis can be found to be accurate/proven or inaccurate/disapproved. 



Quote:

Cyber said:
Quote:

Livingston said:
Science as a noun is the info and data you get after carrying out experiment with the scientific method.  And by ideally having others repeat your method and get the same results.  Science can be proven and repeated by others, otherwise it's only faith...

Theory is the spark of scientific method.




Experience and observation are the spark of the scientific method. It goes like this




Finally!  We agree! j/k :wink:



Quote:

Cyber said:
1) Characterization from experience and observation

2) Hypothesis: a proposed explanation

3) Deduction: prediction from the hypothesis

4) Test and experiment

5) If the hypothesis stands up to repeated testing and is not proven wrong it becomes a theory.





Ummm, no not really...

4) Deduction?  Where did you come up with that?  That's no part of the scientific method :rolleyes:

5) Test Your Hypothesis by Doing an Experiment

6) Analyze Your Data and Draw a Conclusion

7) Communicate Your Results 


Here's some info to explain things:




Steps of the Scientific Method Detailed
http://www.sciencebuddies.org/science-fair-projects/project_scientific_method.shtml

  1. Ask a Question:
    The scientific method starts when you ask a question about something that you observe: How, What, When, Who, Which, Why, or Where?

    And, in order for the scientific method to answer the question it must be about something that you can measure, preferably with a number.


  2. Do Background Research:
    Rather than starting from scratch in putting together a plan for answering your question, you want to be a savvy scientist using library and Internet research to help you find the best way to do things and insure that you don't repeat mistakes from the past.


  3. Construct a Hypothesis:
    A hypothesis is an educated guess about how things work:

    "If _____[I do this] _____, then _____[this]_____ will happen."

    You must state your hypothesis in a way that you can easily measure, and of course, your hypothesis should be constructed in a way to help you answer your original question.


  4. Test Hypothesis:
    Test Your Hypothesis by Doing an Experiment: Your experiment tests whether your hypothesis is true or false. It is important for your experiment to be a fair test. You conduct a fair test by making sure that you change only one factor at a time while keeping all other conditions the same.

    You should also repeat your experiments several times to make sure that the first results weren't just an accident.


  5. Conducting an Experiment:
    Analyze Your Data and Draw a Conclusion: Once your experiment is complete, you collect your measurements and analyze them to see if your hypothesis is true or false.

    Scientists often find that their hypothesis was false, and in such cases they will construct a new hypothesis starting the entire process of the scientific method over again. Even if they find that their hypothesis was true, they may want to test it again in a new way.


  6. Communicate Your Results:
    To complete your science fair project you will communicate your results to others in a final report and/or a display board. Professional scientists do almost exactly the same thing by publishing their final report in a scientific journal or by presenting their results on a poster at a scientific meeting.



More on the conclusion of the experiment:
Quote:

Your conclusions summarize how your results support or contradict your original hypothesis:

  • Summarize your science fair project results in a few sentences and use this summary to support your conclusion. Include key facts from your background research to help explain your results as needed.

  • State whether your results support or contradict your hypothesis. (Engineering & programming projects should state whether they met their design criteria.)

  • If appropriate, state the relationship between the independent and dependent variable.

  • Summarize and evaluate your experimental procedure, making comments about its success and effectiveness.

  • Suggest changes in the experimental procedure (or design) and/or possibilities for further study.





--------------------
Peace and Pasta :mushroom2:

Edited by Livingston (05/27/09 07:51 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineCyber
Ash
Male User Gallery


Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 1,476
Loc: Dearborn Michigan
Last seen: 10 months, 16 days
Re: Identifying compounds required for Ps. Cubensis Growth [Re: Livingston]
    #10406466 - 05/27/09 08:43 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

For the effect preceding the cause check out heisenberg's uncertainty theory when dealing with subatomic particles.

Quote:


Hows that?  Ummm, hypothesis has been 'proven'  as correct in countless studies (until it's later proven wrong, hehe).  Hypothesis can be found to be accurate/proven or inaccurate/disapproved. 





No, it has studies that support or validate the hypothesis it is never considered proven. The reason is that proven is defined as having been established beyond doubt.
Science gets sticky here, you can never prove a hypothesis or a theory, you can have supporting research and they will stand until they are disproven.

http://phyun5.ucr.edu/~wudka/Physics7/Notes_www/node8.html

Lets get a couple of definitions out of the way here.

hypothesis: a tentative insight into the natural world; a concept that is not yet verified but that if true would explain certain facts or phenomena
theory: A logical structure that enables one to deduce the possible results of every experiment that falls within its purview.

------------------------

Deduction: The drawing of a conclusion by reasoning; the act of deducing.

You deduce what will happen based on your hypothesis. Then experiment/test to see if your hypothesis stands up.

Quote:


6) Analyze Your Data and Draw a Conclusion





That is part of the testing and experimenting

Quote:


7) Communicate Your Results





:lol: sure, if you want to but there is no need to communicate your results on every experiment. Many time 1000's of tests/experiments are done before you write a paper on it. On top of that there are thousands of experiments that are conducted that never have their results communicated. That is the difference between college level and high school science fair level work. :lol:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblefastfred
Old Hand
Male User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 6,899
Loc: Dark side of the moon
Re: Identifying compounds required for Ps. Cubensis Growth [Re: Cyber]
    #10406654 - 05/27/09 09:46 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Cyber said:
Science has proven that effect can precede cause so that kinda blows your definition.

For the effect preceding the cause check out Heisenberg's uncertainty theory when dealing with subatomic particles.




The uncertainty in predicting the location of subatomic particles has nothing to do with effect preceding cause.

Only a probability of a location can be predicted.  The location of a particle exists as a wave function which collapses upon observation, fixing the location.

Some people try to think of it in the wrong way.  The subatomic particle exists in both locations prior to observation.  This is not effect preceding cause. 

Quote:

Cyber said:
First off a hypothesis/theory can not be proven, it can only be disproven.





You have it exactly backwards there.  I see what your reasoning is, but nothing can be disproven. 

I can't disprove that invisible pink elephants aren't shitting on my experiments.  I can only prove that if A then B under my experimental conditions.  I can't prove that if A then ALWAYS B anymore than I can PROVE that the sun will rise tomorrow.  I know that's what you're getting at, but something can't be disproven.


Enough of the high school science lessons, enough thread space has already been wasted on this silly debate.

I'm more interested in who's going to pull off the hydroponic fruiting first and how they're going to do it.

Maybe RR should clarify the contest rules since it looks like there might be some attempts.  Is it one 10g fruit or a 10g flush that wins?


-FF

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineRogerRabbitM
Bans for Pleasure
Male User Gallery


Registered: 03/26/03
Posts: 42,214
Loc: Seattle
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
Trusted Cultivator
OG Cultivator
Re: Identifying compounds required for Ps. Cubensis Growth [Re: fastfred]
    #10412444 - 05/28/09 08:36 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

It's probably irrelevant, but a single 10 gram fruit would be a true achievement in the absence of any cellular matter in the growing media.  This of course means no inoculating with grains, or with LC made from grains.  I've observed pins forming on the surface of grain LC many times.

To prevent any phony stuff, the experiment needs to be repeated by another member to show the individual has really come up with something. 

This offer has been standing for a few years now.  By the way, it's a compound light microscope w/halogen bulb, and no, it's not my $3K trinocular with CCD tube and video camera.  It's my spare, and I think I gave around $500 for it in the mid to late 90's.
RR


--------------------
Download Let's Grow Mushrooms



semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineCyber
Ash
Male User Gallery


Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 1,476
Loc: Dearborn Michigan
Last seen: 10 months, 16 days
Re: Identifying compounds required for Ps. Cubensis Growth [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #10412906 - 05/28/09 11:10 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Just to clarify the basics

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
It's probably irrelevant, but a single 10 gram fruit would be a true achievement in the absence of any cellular matter in the growing media.  This of course means no inoculating with grains, or with LC made from grains.  I've observed pins forming on the surface of grain LC many times.





Dextrose and or Malt Extract Liquid cultures for initial inoculation with live mycilia are acceptable?

Quote:


To prevent any phony stuff, the experiment needs to be repeated by another member to show the individual has really come up with something. 





Peer review is always expected, I just hope that there is a peer out there who can follow my instructions should I be successful at this. :lol:

At the moment I am testing on Vermiculite, once I have a good successful grow on Vermiculite I move to using rock wool if that is your requirement.

So the rules outline as follows

#1) No Grain in any way, shape, or form. This includes grain spawn, grain flour, and LC's made from grain.
#2) Must produce a 10g fruit. (is a 20g flush of 2g fruits acceptable or does it have to be a single 10g fruit?)
#3) Must be duplicated by some one on the shroomery, following your notes, to validate the findings.

Prize is a compound light microscope w/halogen bulb.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineRogerRabbitM
Bans for Pleasure
Male User Gallery


Registered: 03/26/03
Posts: 42,214
Loc: Seattle
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
Trusted Cultivator
OG Cultivator
Re: Identifying compounds required for Ps. Cubensis Growth [Re: Cyber]
    #10414010 - 05/28/09 03:09 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Cyber said:
Just to clarify the basics

#1) No Grain in any way, shape, or form. This includes grain spawn, grain flour, and LC's made from grain.





Which includes malt.  Verm also isn't inert and will support fungi.  Use rockwool, perlite, or plain water with non-grain/organic based chemical nutrients.  I'd accept a 20 gram flush as long as the crap didn't sit there for a year and the fruits formed on a dried mycelial mat floating on top of the 'solution'.  Such wouldn't be hydroponic because we all know LC will grow mycelium, and mycelium is also cannibalistic, digesting its own cellular matter, once the tissue dies.  I doubt it would fruit that way on a chemical solution anyway, but just wanted to toss that possibility out there.

Experimenting is fun and lord knows I've done my share, but in my opinion this is like trying to design a car that runs on square wheels.  Prove me wrong please.
RR


--------------------
Download Let's Grow Mushrooms



semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineLivingston
Space Ranger
Male User Gallery
Registered: 05/15/09
Posts: 223
Loc: Cali
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
Re: Identifying compounds required for Ps. Cubensis Growth [Re: Cyber]
    #10414014 - 05/28/09 03:10 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Cyber said:
Just to clarify the basics

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
It's probably irrelevant, but a single 10 gram fruit would be a true achievement in the absence of any cellular matter in the growing media.  This of course means no inoculating with grains, or with LC made from grains.  I've observed pins forming on the surface of grain LC many times.





Dextrose and or Malt Extract Liquid cultures for initial inoculation with live mycilia are acceptable?




I was thinking the same thing.  I was thinking no greater than 2% might be good to limit food variables. 

For inoculating I was thinking of LC <2% foodstuffs or agar with low foodstuffs.

Quote:

Cyber said:
Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
To prevent any phony stuff, the experiment needs to be repeated by another member to show the individual has really come up with something. 





Peer review is always expected, I just hope that there is a peer out there who can follow my instructions should I be successful at this. :lol:





I was thinking about who would do the review.  Maybe the other people in the contest, I trust Cyber to not mess up my results if I promise not to mess up his :wink:

Or an impartial grower would be best...RR you game?

(P.S. peer-review = from communication of results (communication is not done after every experiment)..sorry, I just had to say it :tongue: j/k)


Quote:

Cyber said:
At the moment I am testing on Vermiculite, once I have a good successful grow on Vermiculite I move to using rock wool if that is your requirement.




How are you limiting food stuffs? 


Quote:

Cyber said:
So the rules outline as follows

#1) No Grain in any way, shape, or form. This includes grain spawn, grain flour, and LC's made from grain.
#2) Must produce a 10g fruit. (is a 20g flush of 2g fruits acceptable or does it have to be a single 10g fruit?)
#3) Must be duplicated by some one on the shroomery, following your notes, to validate the findings.




-As spawn we might want to consider using the same material we will use as a sub.  Or what are opinions on a spawn substrate?  (if one is to be used at all...Re: cakes...)

-Is the weight from wet or dried?

-Is this open to chemical and organics?

-We may want to all agree on subs we can use.  Or agree on subs we can't use.  Agreeing on ones we can't use might be better because I don't want to give away what I am using for a sub.  It's totally inert but I don't want to tip my hand.  So how about no:
  • compost
  • coir
  • vermiculite
  • any type of manure
  • any type of paper (like the kitty litter)
  • corn cob
  • others???


-How about a 'due' date.  Like August 31st?  Having a set date would be nice.

-A list of who is participating would be cool so we can keep in touch with each other if need be.


Quote:

Prize is a compound light microscope w/halogen bulb.




RR, what watt is the bulb and what objectives come with it?  What is the make/model?  Is it bi or binocular?  Does is have a camera port if it's a trinocular?  What condition is it in?  (I ask the condition because I have a buddy who refurbishes microscopes but I'd have to let him know in advance...if I win that is :wink: )


Good luck to all!  And THANKS to RR :smile:


--------------------
Peace and Pasta :mushroom2:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineLivingston
Space Ranger
Male User Gallery
Registered: 05/15/09
Posts: 223
Loc: Cali
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
Re: Identifying compounds required for Ps. Cubensis Growth [Re: Livingston]
    #10414061 - 05/28/09 03:20 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Cool, I see RR was posting when I was.  Thanks for clarifying some issues.

So how about using agar with very little pale malt extract or an LC with very little?  Say <0.5%?  Will spores germinate on just agar?  If so we could use agar without any food (if it would work), and then blend it up for a LC with DI or distilled water (they have very little nutrients).  Using that LC would be the best option if it would work...

You didn't list my sub but I can PM you if you want.  That way I keep my sub secret and you know I'm not gaming the system.  If you give my sub the OK then I'm good to go :smile:

Organics?

Thanks!


--------------------
Peace and Pasta :mushroom2:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineCyber
Ash
Male User Gallery


Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 1,476
Loc: Dearborn Michigan
Last seen: 10 months, 16 days
Re: Identifying compounds required for Ps. Cubensis Growth [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #10414102 - 05/28/09 03:28 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Hold it, non-organic chemical nutrients? That is not possible, you just eliminated the use of dextrose, not to count the amino acids that are needed for the reactions that break down various chemicals and recombined them. I have, through my experimentation and observations, come to the conclusion that these mushrooms do not have all the needed amino acids to do what they do and must obtain them from the growth medium, this also explains why they prefer the dung of cows, horses,  buffalo, etc.

I know I can make a liquid but eliminating Organic chemistry from the mix is not possible.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineLivingston
Space Ranger
Male User Gallery
Registered: 05/15/09
Posts: 223
Loc: Cali
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
Re: Identifying compounds required for Ps. Cubensis Growth [Re: Cyber]
    #10414157 - 05/28/09 03:39 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Hey Cyber,

It sounds like he meant organic or chemcial salt fertilzers:
Quote:

Use rockwool, perlite, or plain water with non-grain/organic based chemical nutrients




At least that's how I read it.  Good luck bro.


--------------------
Peace and Pasta :mushroom2:

Edited by Livingston (05/28/09 03:41 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineCyber
Ash
Male User Gallery


Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 1,476
Loc: Dearborn Michigan
Last seen: 10 months, 16 days
Re: Identifying compounds required for Ps. Cubensis Growth [Re: Livingston]
    #10414224 - 05/28/09 03:58 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Livingston said:
Quote:

Cyber said:
At the moment I am testing on Vermiculite, once I have a good successful grow on Vermiculite I move to using rock wool if that is your requirement.




How are you limiting food stuffs? 





Inoculating live mycilia (Ps. Cubensis) into a wet vermiculite and you will not see any growth. I have tried it a couple of times. Ad to the vermiculite the nutrient list that was the first post and you will not see any growth. I am currently using it as a medium because it is a lot cheaper than rock wool and easier to find.

Quote:


-As spawn we might want to consider using the same material we will use as a sub.  Or what are opinions on a spawn substrate?  (if one is to be used at all...Re: cakes...)





No spawning, this is all cake grows with an inert substrate as the holding medium.

Quote:


-Is the weight from wet or dried?





Wet Weight of the mushroom. a 10g dry mushroom would have to weigh 100g wet and that is a rarity.

Quote:


-We may want to all agree on subs we can use.  Or agree on subs we can't use.  Agreeing on ones we can't use might be better because I don't want to give away what I am using for a sub.  It's totally inert but I don't want to tip my hand.  So how about no:
  • compost
  • coir
  • vermiculite
  • any type of manure
  • any type of paper (like the kitty litter)
  • corn cob
  • others???






Rock Wool, Perlite, or pure liquid.

The problem with the restrictions is
A liquid does not support the weight of the grow and will have issues.
Perlite is not good at holding a liquid and having a substrate that holds a liquid is key.
Rock Wool is about the only one from his list that has a chance and it is not perfect due to PH as well as tightness of the cubes. However, you can adjust the ph and pull the rockwool out to make it light and airy


Quote:


-How about a 'due' date.  Like August 31st?  Having a set date would be nice.

-A list of who is participating would be cool so we can keep in touch with each other if need be.





No due date, first one to do it wins. That is simple. :wink: as to a list, anyone that wants to try.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineLivingston
Space Ranger
Male User Gallery
Registered: 05/15/09
Posts: 223
Loc: Cali
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
Re: Identifying compounds required for Ps. Cubensis Growth [Re: Cyber]
    #10414551 - 05/28/09 05:02 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Hey C

Quote:

Cyber said:
Quote:

Livingston said:
-As spawn we might want to consider using the same material we will use as a sub.  Or what are opinions on a spawn substrate?  (if one is to be used at all...Re: cakes...)





No spawning, this is all cake grows with an inert substrate as the holding medium.




For this experiment cakes would be better/easier I agree.  But I am going to try cakes and bulk.


Quote:

Cyber said:
Quote:

Livingston said:
-Is the weight from wet or dried?





Wet Weight of the mushroom. a 10g dry mushroom would have to weigh 100g wet and that is a rarity.




Ha.  Good point :blush:



Quote:

Cyber said:
Quote:

Livingston said:
-We may want to all agree on subs we can use.  Or agree on subs we can't use.  Agreeing on ones we can't use might be better because I don't want to give away what I am using for a sub.  It's totally inert but I don't want to tip my hand.  So how about no:
  • compost
  • coir
  • vermiculite
  • any type of manure
  • any type of paper (like the kitty litter)
  • corn cob
  • others???






Rock Wool, Perlite, or pure liquid.




The sub I am using is not on that list.  But it's inert.


Quote:

Cyber said:
Quote:

Livingston said:
-How about a 'due' date.  Like August 31st?  Having a set date would be nice.

-A list of who is participating would be cool so we can keep in touch with each other if need be.





No due date, first one to do it wins. That is simple. :wink: as to a list, anyone that wants to try.




I disagree.  We should have a due date.  What if someone  wants to join us but only notices this in a month?  And what about people who want to do this but don't have LC ready, etc.  IMO we need a end date to make the playing field equal to all.  That and setting up peer-testing would be much easier if we had an end date.  Lets let RR decide this one...


For a list it's you and I.  Someone else said they might play too but I don't remember.  They can post in this thread if they like.


--------------------
Peace and Pasta :mushroom2:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleBlimeyGrimey
Collector of Spores
Male


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 3,796
Loc: Puget Sound
Re: Identifying compounds required for Ps. Cubensis Growth [Re: fastfred]
    #10414775 - 05/28/09 05:49 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

fastfred said:
I can't disprove that invisible pink elephants aren't shitting on my experiments.




How can an elephant be pink if its invisible?:confused:


--------------------
Message me for free microscopy services on Psilocybe, Panaeolus, and Gymnopilus species.

Looking for wild Panaeolus cinctulus and Panaeolus olivaceus prints.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineABC
Stranger
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/16/08
Posts: 1,439
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
Re: Identifying compounds required for Ps. Cubensis Growth [Re: BlimeyGrimey]
    #10415910 - 05/28/09 08:23 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

they bend the light around themselves
:tongue:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineCyber
Ash
Male User Gallery


Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 1,476
Loc: Dearborn Michigan
Last seen: 10 months, 16 days
Re: Identifying compounds required for Ps. Cubensis Growth [Re: ABC]
    #10416129 - 05/28/09 08:57 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Dude, if they are pink and invisible then they are not truly invisible they only have an SEP Field generator.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineRogerRabbitM
Bans for Pleasure
Male User Gallery


Registered: 03/26/03
Posts: 42,214
Loc: Seattle
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
Trusted Cultivator
OG Cultivator
Re: Identifying compounds required for Ps. Cubensis Growth [Re: BlimeyGrimey]
    #10416741 - 05/28/09 10:38 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

By non-organic, I should have actually said non-cellular which is what I meant.

Agar agar is a seaweed product, thus cellular, so it's a no-no.  Mushroom mycelium eats cellular life.  If you want to prove hydroponics, you'll have to use chemicals to grow actual mushrooms on an inert substrate, which I think is impossible.  However, I won't freak out and ban anyone if I'm proved wrong. :laugh:
RR


--------------------
Download Let's Grow Mushrooms



semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleBlimeyGrimey
Collector of Spores
Male


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 3,796
Loc: Puget Sound
Re: Identifying compounds required for Ps. Cubensis Growth [Re: Cyber]
    #10417377 - 05/29/09 12:59 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Cyber said:
Dude, if they are pink and invisible then they are not truly invisible they only have an SEP Field generator.




Nice HHGTTG reference.:thumbup:


--------------------
Message me for free microscopy services on Psilocybe, Panaeolus, and Gymnopilus species.

Looking for wild Panaeolus cinctulus and Panaeolus olivaceus prints.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineNoBrainNoPain
Enthusiast noob


Registered: 03/27/09
Posts: 427
Loc: here
Last seen: 9 years, 20 days
Re: Identifying compounds required for Ps. Cubensis Growth [Re: Cyber]
    #10418440 - 05/29/09 08:52 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Rock Wool, Perlite, or pure liquid.

The problem with the restrictions is
A liquid does not support the weight of the grow and will have issues.
Perlite is not good at holding a liquid and having a substrate that holds a liquid is key.
Rock Wool is about the only one from his list that has a chance and it is not perfect due to PH as well as tightness of the cubes. However, you can adjust the ph and pull the rockwool out to make it light and airy




Hi all,

Sorry to bring my "newbyness" in this very interesting post, but what do you think of synthetic sponges, or the foam used by the florists, or even polyfill as valid sub for your experiment?

I can't take part in the contest (eeeh I haven't even a single grow yet under my belt...:blush:), but I like experiments.

So sorry if I bring dumb ideas, but I thought these 3 things could be fitting the "inert non-cellular" definition?


--------------------
I would love a woodlover's print… PM If you have one and want to trade

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineCyber
Ash
Male User Gallery


Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 1,476
Loc: Dearborn Michigan
Last seen: 10 months, 16 days
Re: Identifying compounds required for Ps. Cubensis Growth [Re: NoBrainNoPain]
    #10418511 - 05/29/09 09:10 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Mushroom mycelium eats cellular life.
RR




Then how can you justify the idea that vermiculite is a nutrient source?

Quote:

NoBrainNoPain said:
Sorry to bring my "newbyness" in this very interesting post, but what do you think of synthetic sponges, or the foam used by the florists, or even polyfill as valid sub for your experiment?





Synthetic sponges and polyfill may work but the issue is balance of a liquid solution at the right level. I am sure some one can test it once a solution is found. I have confidence that someone will find a solution.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineLivingston
Space Ranger
Male User Gallery
Registered: 05/15/09
Posts: 223
Loc: Cali
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
Re: Identifying compounds required for Ps. Cubensis Growth [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #10418889 - 05/29/09 10:37 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Hey Roger,

Can you please answer my questions?  I want to start on Monday but I need to know the rules.

1) Are we allowed to use liquid organic fertilizers?  I see no reason why we can't use liquid organic fertilizers (they are not cellular matter in the manner you mean).

2) And what about a 'due' date?  For peer-review I find it hard to image how we can make the playing field even if we have no end date.

3) Who is going to do the peer-testing?  We need to figure that out now so we are ready.  I would prefer that a Trusted Cultivator do the peer-testing...

4) Strains:  I know they are all supposed to be the same but in terms of yield they are known to be variable.  I am going to use SA which is known to be a very high yeilder.  Will the peer-testing have to use the same strain the experimenters did? (IMO that would be very wise)

5) LC:  Can we use a LC with say under 2% or under say 0.5% malt extract?

6) Should people be allowed to use an isolate?  I don't think so.  How could a peer-tester expect to get similar results if the original person used an isolate.  LC from MS seems the fairest method.

7) I want to make this a cool project for the Shroomery.  Lets make is as professional as we can.  WE NEED RULES.

8) Side bets anyone?  :wink:





Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
By non-organic, I should have actually said non-cellular which is what I meant.

Agar agar is a seaweed product, thus cellular, so it's a no-no.  Mushroom mycelium eats cellular life.  If you want to prove hydroponics, you'll have to use chemicals to grow actual mushrooms on an inert substrate, which I think is impossible.  However, I won't freak out and ban anyone if I'm proved wrong. :laugh:
RR




--------------------
Peace and Pasta :mushroom2:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineRogerRabbitM
Bans for Pleasure
Male User Gallery


Registered: 03/26/03
Posts: 42,214
Loc: Seattle
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
Trusted Cultivator
OG Cultivator
Re: Identifying compounds required for Ps. Cubensis Growth [Re: Cyber]
    #10419446 - 05/29/09 12:21 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Cyber said:
Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Mushroom mycelium eats cellular life.
RR




Then how can you justify the idea that vermiculite is a nutrient source?





I didn't say it 'only' eats cellular life forms.  My theory on vermiculite is from many years of watching mushrooms/mycelium grow on it.  I've left bags of verm out in the garage under a leaky roof and the whole bag gets taken over by mold.  I've seen verm casing layers totally colonized with mold.  I've also watched verm layers get totally colonized by mushroom mycelium.  I've watched pf cakes shrink to the size of silver dollars after a few flushes.  All the above leads me to speculate based on observation that the mycelium is consuming the verm.  How the hell it does that is beyond my pay grade to speculate on.  I just know what I see.  I may not understand the physics of the atomic bomb, but a look at pictures of the destruction convinces me it exists.

As for rules, the offer has been standing for many years so far with no takers.  I see no reason for a cutoff date, but if you want one, how about 90 days from this post?  That's about twice the time it takes pf cakes from inoculation to fruiting.

Isolated strain or multispore, I don't give a darn.  Ditto for species.

What kind of organic fertilizer has no cellular base?  I know mushroom mycelium will grow on many types of plant and animal tissue/excrement.  I've used GH organic hydro solution on plants and it stinks to high heaven.  I can't imagine it isn't made from cellular tissue.  The point is to attempt to get fungi to fruit on a non plant based substrate with only chemical nutrients.  Perlite, broken glass, marbles, whatever should suffice to hold the mycelium stationary.  I just don't want verm used, because despite the naysayers, I have seen it support fungi.  I'm not trying to re-hash an old fight, but verm is a non sequitur since it's my microscope I'm talking about parting with.

I've already said above no malt, since it's grain based.
RR


--------------------
Download Let's Grow Mushrooms



semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineLivingston
Space Ranger
Male User Gallery
Registered: 05/15/09
Posts: 223
Loc: Cali
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
Re: Identifying compounds required for Ps. Cubensis Growth [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #10419817 - 05/29/09 01:24 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
As for rules, the offer has been standing for many years so far with no takers.  I see no reason for a cutoff date, but if you want one, how about 90 days from this post?  That's about twice the time it takes pf cakes from inoculation to fruiting.




Cool, thanks.


Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
What kind of organic fertilizer has no cellular base?  I know mushroom mycelium will grow on many types of plant and animal tissue/excrement.


I've used GH organic hydro solution on plants and it stinks to high heaven.  I can't imagine it isn't made from cellular tissue




I was referring to a cellular based liquid.  I was hoping to use hydrolyzed fish and kelp among a few other items.  They are derived from organic celluar matter but they themselves would not support plant or mushroom growth. 

For plants to use the liquid organic ferts they need a substrate plus microorganisms, protozoa and nematode.  For fungi to use the liquid to produce mushrooms they would need a substrate (inert or organic cellular matter).

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
The point is to attempt to get fungi to fruit on a non plant based substrate with only chemical nutrients.




OK.  Non-plant based substrate and chemical salt fertilizers.


Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
I've already said above no malt, since it's grain based.
RR




Cool.  So LC from chemical salts?

Thanks RR :smile:


--------------------
Peace and Pasta :mushroom2:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblefastfred
Old Hand
Male User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 6,899
Loc: Dark side of the moon
Re: Identifying compounds required for Ps. Cubensis Growth [Re: Livingston]
    #10420162 - 05/29/09 02:22 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

I don't think there needs to be an end date.  Just like any scientific discovery the first to publish gets the credit (and the microscope).  Whoever first publishes a working method gets the fist chance at peer-review.

I've finally read enough to get interested in the possibility.  So I'll be throwing my hat in the ring and giving it a shot.

I'm not worried about getting growth, but fruiting a 10g fruit might take a bit of trial and error.

Just to make it a little more fair I'll be using a chemically defined nutrient source.  And if I win I'll donate one of my old scopes to any 2nd placers and/or RR's scope if I don't think I'll use it.

Too bad about the no verm rule.  If I wasn't going to use a chemically defined media I would probably pulverize some verm in some dH2O, then filter and use that water on another base material.  There's probably some mineral in the verm that helps support growth.

I also don't see any reason not to use an isolate.  You'll just have to file a voucher specimen somewhere or make it available so that others can try to replicate it.  There's been a lot of debate in the past if this would be legal or not, and most of it comes down to what stage the myc might be at.  But a properly prepared water agar slant with only a few mg of myc on it could never test positive for actives IMO.  Thus it would be legal.


-FF

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineRogerRabbitM
Bans for Pleasure
Male User Gallery


Registered: 03/26/03
Posts: 42,214
Loc: Seattle
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
Trusted Cultivator
OG Cultivator
Re: Identifying compounds required for Ps. Cubensis Growth [Re: fastfred]
    #10423025 - 05/30/09 12:00 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

I've grown mushrooms on seaweed.  It's an excellent substrate and kelp is an excellent additive, so it's right up there with verm and malt.  Ditto for fish products, or anything that contains cells you can see with a microscope.  The idea of hydroponics is chemical substitution of the elements referred to in the original post.  We all know mushrooms can eat/consume plant matter. 

I'm good with no expiration date. . . .Unless UPS and the post office keep raising shipping rates. :frown:
RR


--------------------
Download Let's Grow Mushrooms



semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineLivingston
Space Ranger
Male User Gallery
Registered: 05/15/09
Posts: 223
Loc: Cali
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
Re: Identifying compounds required for Ps. Cubensis Growth [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #10430728 - 05/31/09 04:22 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Cool.

I just bought my supplies.  I am going to use a PC and also do the PF tek (without verm layer).  I guess I'll use MS because I can not think of how to use mycelium if we can not use even a tiny bit of malt in an LC.

How are you guys inoculating?  MS?

I hope to see growth soon.  But I am doubtful it will work. I thought we could use hydrolyzed fish, etc.  Just using chemical salts I think is doomed to failure...but I'll give it my best.


--------------------
Peace and Pasta :mushroom2:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineLivingston
Space Ranger
Male User Gallery
Registered: 05/15/09
Posts: 223
Loc: Cali
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
Re: Identifying compounds required for Ps. Cubensis Growth [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #10430743 - 05/31/09 04:25 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Hi Roger,

OK, chemical salts and liquids without cellular matter only.  But I thought a main disagreement at the shroomery/mycotopi*, etc, was that mushrooms can not be grown with liquid fertilizers?  I thought the theory was that the mycelium had to consume it's food as a sub and adding liquid fertilizers to sub when moistening did no good?  (which I never thought was a correct line of reasoning)

Hydroponic is commonly a misused term, it's kinda confusing to it's real meaning.  Growing hydroponically with plants/trees/etc is just growing them without soil.  Using a soilless medium like peat-moss and watering with organic fertilizers is still hydroponics.  As is a NFT tray with chemical salt fertilizers.

Thanks again man, this is a cool things your doing :smile:


--------------------
Peace and Pasta :mushroom2:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineRogerRabbitM
Bans for Pleasure
Male User Gallery


Registered: 03/26/03
Posts: 42,214
Loc: Seattle
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
Trusted Cultivator
OG Cultivator
Re: Identifying compounds required for Ps. Cubensis Growth [Re: Livingston]
    #10432369 - 05/31/09 09:32 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

It's important to remember that mycelium is not a plant.  In fact, mycelium is more closely related to humans than to plants.
RR


--------------------
Download Let's Grow Mushrooms



semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblefastfred
Old Hand
Male User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 6,899
Loc: Dark side of the moon
Re: Identifying compounds required for Ps. Cubensis Growth [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #10432763 - 05/31/09 10:36 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

I just bought my supplies.  I am going to use a PC and also do the PF tek (without verm layer).  I guess I'll use MS because I can not think of how to use mycelium if we can not use even a tiny bit of malt in an LC.

How are you guys inoculating?  MS?




I'll probably use a dextrose LC with some chemical additives.  Can't be too specific, but it will follow the nutrient requirements in my earlier post in this thread.

I'll probably use a MS LC, but I might test a few cultures also.  I want to make sure to get good prototrophic genetics, so I'll start with a minimal media formulation then move it to a richer media with micronutrients for the hydroponic part.

Good luck to everyone.  I probably won't get going for a week or two.


-FF

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineLivingston
Space Ranger
Male User Gallery
Registered: 05/15/09
Posts: 223
Loc: Cali
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
Re: Identifying compounds required for Ps. Cubensis Growth [Re: fastfred]
    #10435268 - 06/01/09 01:01 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Hey FF,

Dextrose is a no-no according to RR I thought?  As is malt.  Or did I miss something?

On that topic I did some tests last week; I PC'd 3 different jars of verm.  I soaked the verm in distilled water.  Then I squeezed the verm to 3 different levels of moisture for 3 different jars: One just below field capacity, one way below field capacity and one just at field capacity.

I used a good LC (w/2% pale malt extract) which I used a week ago to nock' up a bunch of bags, so the LC is good.  However, all the jars had zero growth.  This is the same result everyone gets when nock'ing verm jars.  This leads me to think malt alone will not produce growth on a sub as it will in a LC.  What does everyone else think? 

If so then it could mean we might be able to use say 0.5% malt extract in a LC when incoulating the test jars.  Using that low of malt might not introduce a false-positive the way we think it may...it would be great if we could use a LC with low malt for inoculation and not have to rely on MS.


---------

I was also thinking if someone succeeds they should also do a few test jars with *only* the substrate, no fertilizers.  This would show us that the sub itself is not feeding the mycelium.  Many people think vermiculite will support growth, if so then I would assume the same people would think rockwool can support growth too because it too will get moldy...

Just my thoughts last night...


--------------------
Peace and Pasta :mushroom2:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineRogerRabbitM
Bans for Pleasure
Male User Gallery


Registered: 03/26/03
Posts: 42,214
Loc: Seattle
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
Trusted Cultivator
OG Cultivator
Re: Identifying compounds required for Ps. Cubensis Growth [Re: Livingston]
    #10437462 - 06/01/09 07:55 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

If you're only using a ml or two of malt containing LC as an inoculant, I don't have a problem with that.  Just don't use it in your hydro mix.
RR


--------------------
Download Let's Grow Mushrooms



semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblefastfred
Old Hand
Male User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 6,899
Loc: Dark side of the moon
Re: Identifying compounds required for Ps. Cubensis Growth [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #10438957 - 06/02/09 12:04 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

> Dextrose is a no-no according to RR I thought?

You have to have a carbon source or you can't have growth.  We're not dealing with plants here.  There is no photosynthetic activity in fungi, so you must have some type of sugar involved.

Pure dextrose has no type of cellular component, so it should be legal.  The way they spray dry malt extract I'm not sure if it ends up with cellular components or not.

One could certainly get some synthetic sugars, but the cost would be just foolishly high.

About the most minimal media that fungi can grow on is:

Mushroom Minimal Medium (MMM)
------------------------------
MgSO4-7H2O 0.5g
KH2PO4 0.46g
K2HPO4 1.0g
Glucose 20.0g
Agar 20.0g


And that doesn't even really have a nitrogen source.


-FF

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineLivingston
Space Ranger
Male User Gallery
Registered: 05/15/09
Posts: 223
Loc: Cali
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
Re: Identifying compounds required for Ps. Cubensis Growth [Re: fastfred]
    #10443195 - 06/02/09 06:02 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Hey FF,

Yea I know they are not plants (that's an oft repeated mantra around here :shrug:).  RR originally said only chemicals and that's when I wrote I doubt 'hydro' mushrooms can happen if that was indeed the case.  I'm happy to see I was wrong about RR not allowing sugars...but I already bought a $35.00 bottle of D-Ribose powder I was going to use in place of corn sugar (dextrose) and malt (glucose).  I will still use it as a test because I have not heard of anyone using it before. 

D-Ribose powder is 'stacked' with creatine when weight lifting, it is source of carbon and is very similar to glucose (analog/ish).


--------------------
Peace and Pasta :mushroom2:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleBlimeyGrimey
Collector of Spores
Male


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 3,796
Loc: Puget Sound
Re: Identifying compounds required for Ps. Cubensis Growth [Re: Livingston]
    #10443266 - 06/02/09 06:11 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

"In biology, D-ribose must be phosphorylated by the cell before it can be used. Ribokinase catalyzes this reaction by converting D-ribose to D-ribose-5-phosphate. Once converted, D-ribose-5-phosphate is available for the manufacturing of the aminoacids tryptophan and histidine, or for use in the pentose phosphate pathway."

Ps. cubensis should have no problem putting ribose to use.

We know cubensis has no problem phosphorylating able molecules.


--------------------
Message me for free microscopy services on Psilocybe, Panaeolus, and Gymnopilus species.

Looking for wild Panaeolus cinctulus and Panaeolus olivaceus prints.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineLivingston
Space Ranger
Male User Gallery
Registered: 05/15/09
Posts: 223
Loc: Cali
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
Re: Identifying compounds required for Ps. Cubensis Growth [Re: BlimeyGrimey]
    #10446786 - 06/03/09 10:43 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Hey BlimeyGrimey,

Thanks for that!  I am going to make an LC with it today.  I also want to try mixing with agar-agar.  If D-ribose does what I think it may it could be better than malt and corn sugar combined (or at least better than malt as dextrose doesn't seem necessary when using glucose).

I take 5g of D-Ribose a day with my 5g of micronized creatine.  I am thinking about using a few milligrams (or maybe 0.5-1 gram) per liter/quart...any thoughts or suggestions? :smile:


--------------------
Peace and Pasta :mushroom2:

Edited by Livingston (06/03/09 10:49 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleBlimeyGrimey
Collector of Spores
Male


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 3,796
Loc: Puget Sound
Re: Identifying compounds required for Ps. Cubensis Growth [Re: Livingston]
    #10449030 - 06/03/09 05:34 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

I would try a 1-2% mix as an LC. That's about 10-20 grams per liter.


--------------------
Message me for free microscopy services on Psilocybe, Panaeolus, and Gymnopilus species.

Looking for wild Panaeolus cinctulus and Panaeolus olivaceus prints.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineTerantula
Spider
Male
Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 54
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 14 years, 5 months
Re: Identifying compounds required for Ps. Cubensis Growth [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #10509040 - 06/15/09 06:15 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Quote:

Ditto for inoculating manure, straw, coir, etc., with live liquid culture.  It produces no growth.  That's why we use grains.




WHAT?  Are u some kinda newbee? I think you seriously need to go back and re-read your histories.

French monks were using live tissue directly inoculated into compost over 400 years ago.

We use grains now as one of many forms of mycelial expansion for massive amounts of bulk inoculation.

Please, resist the urge to state such blately incorrect comments.


FURTHERMORE...

those that wish to successfully grow hydro shrooms, would find it best done on rockwool, using a product line of fertilizers called "Dutch Master" or "Dutch Treat". 3 Part mix. Use additional additives as described on Magical, Plantroids, and Carboblast products for additions. I'd suggest use of hydroponic methods over aeroponic or vapoponic, ebb and flow could be recommended for further testing of larger colonies of mycelium to produce larger fruitbodies. It will grow and support mycelium easly enough. I've seen fruitings of several species of macro- and micro-fungi and what are regarded as "Contaminant Fungi" in mycology. This can be easly verified by asking anyone that grows hydroponically without the use of peroxide.

Edited by Terantula (06/15/09 07:21 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineRogerRabbitM
Bans for Pleasure
Male User Gallery


Registered: 03/26/03
Posts: 42,214
Loc: Seattle
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
Trusted Cultivator
OG Cultivator
Re: Identifying compounds required for Ps. Cubensis Growth [Re: Terantula]
    #10509672 - 06/15/09 09:07 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

WHAT?  Are u some kinda newbee? I think you seriously need to go back and re-read your histories.

French monks were using live tissue directly inoculated into compost over 400 years ago.

We use grains now as one of many forms of mycelial expansion for massive amounts of bulk inoculation.

Please, resist the urge to state such blately incorrect comments.


FURTHERMORE...

those that wish to successfully grow hydro shrooms, would find it best done on rockwool, using a product line of fertilizers called "Dutch Master" or "Dutch Treat". 3 Part mix. Use additional additives as described on Magical, Plantroids, and Carboblast products for additions. I'd suggest use of hydroponic methods over aeroponic or vapoponic, ebb and flow could be recommended for further testing of larger colonies of mycelium to produce larger fruitbodies. It will grow and support mycelium easly enough.




:lmafo:

First of all, you don't know what type of culture french monks were using 400 years ago.  Secondly, they obviously weren't using sterile culture because they didn't have pressure cookers back then.  Everyone knows you can inoculate outdoors or in caves with spores or cultures directly to manure or compost if you have a year or two to wait for harvests.  If we did that indoors, contaminant conidial fungi would win that war.

I love the definitive advice on using plant fertilizers to grow hydroponic mushrooms from someone who has never done so.  Classic. :laugh:

Quote:

I've seen fruitings of several species of macro- and micro-fungi and what are regarded as "Contaminant Fungi" in mycology. This can be easly verified by asking anyone that grows hydroponically without the use of peroxide.




I grew weed hydroponically for many, many years.  I never used peroxide, and never saw a single mushroom form in my rockwool, hydroton, perlite or vermiculite that whole time. :shrug:
RR

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineTerantula
Spider
Male
Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 54
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 14 years, 5 months
Re: Identifying compounds required for Ps. Cubensis Growth [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #10510367 - 06/15/09 12:03 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
First of all, you don't know what type of culture french monks were using 400 years ago.  Secondly, they obviously weren't using sterile culture because they didn't have pressure cookers back then.  Everyone knows you can inoculate outdoors or in caves with spores or cultures directly to manure or compost if you have a year or two to wait for harvests.  If we did that indoors, contaminant conidial fungi would win that war.





Oh, actually it was Agaricus brunnescens. Its quite well documented.

Are you saying that thier lack of sterile techniques is somehow less than what can be compensated for in conditions? They took live mycelium by the handfull, inoculated another compost pile, and grew them out using wood boxes in caves in france. It did not take two years to have them flush, LOL. Outdoor beds take "extra time" because thier conditions are never perfectly ideal or very stable. The french moved thier cultures to the caves to establish an "evenness" to cultivation that previously before did not exist, thus leading to the entire "button mushroom" market of the day.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineLivingston
Space Ranger
Male User Gallery
Registered: 05/15/09
Posts: 223
Loc: Cali
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
Re: Identifying compounds required for Ps. Cubensis Growth [Re: Terantula]
    #10510561 - 06/15/09 12:43 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Terantula,

...your in way over your head and that crap about which fertilizers to use it just that, crap.  If you use 'carboload' crap for growing Cannabis spp. then your lost in that field too, sorry to say (that crap is all hype, carbs (sugars) are for microbes, not plants).

I am using GH Flora-Grow and Flora-Micro with some other additives, none of which you mentioned.  I tired 'oasis' cubes but the mycelium did not grow.  Next I'm trying a mix of two products, one is perilte...neither is rock-wool.

You would be best to heed your own advise and not make definitive statements when you can't prove it (and it's obvious you don't know what your talking about)...

BTW, if you use Dutch Master products to grow Cannabis spp. then you have A LOT to learn about quality vs hype and what Cannabis spp. REALLY needs...don't trust Cannabis spp. "Guru's" or any marketing hype.  All the 'pot' authors are pretty much idiots, I have found so many incorrect statements by George Cervantes and his ilk it makes me ill...and it's like none of them understand light at all (lumens, lux, PAR...don't make me laugh).


--------------------
Peace and Pasta :mushroom2:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineLivingston
Space Ranger
Male User Gallery
Registered: 05/15/09
Posts: 223
Loc: Cali
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
Re: Identifying compounds required for Ps. Cubensis Growth [Re: Livingston]
    #10510623 - 06/15/09 12:54 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

And T,

If you see "contaminant fungi" I assume you mean algae, which is due to you keeping the media too moist; simple as that.  Cycle your water less often, and IF you using hydro don't waste your time with carboload...and be careful with your plantroids (lol), PGRs should only be applied when one understands their mode of action...


--------------------
Peace and Pasta :mushroom2:

Edited by Livingston (06/15/09 01:03 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblemattman
just another guy
Male

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 232
. [Re: Livingston]
    #10514607 - 06/16/09 12:11 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

.

Edited by mattman (04/02/10 02:39 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblemattman
just another guy
Male

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 232
. [Re: mattman]
    #10516532 - 06/16/09 11:48 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

.

Edited by mattman (04/02/10 02:38 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinerovert 81
Stranger
 User Gallery

Registered: 12/06/14
Posts: 46
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
Re: Identifying compounds required for Ps. Cubensis Growth [Re: Cyber]
    #21068152 - 01/04/15 08:36 PM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Dude help please. What are these growing in cow poop

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4  [ show all ]

Shop: MagicBag.co All-In-One Bags That Don't Suck   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   Bridgetown Botanicals Bridgetown Botanicals   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Kraken Kratom Kratom Capsules for Sale   Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale   North Spore Bulk Substrate   Left Coast Kratom Buy Kratom Extract   Original Sensible Seeds Autoflowering Cannabis Seeds   Mushroom-Hut Liquid Cultures


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Best Ph for P. Cubensis SoLongInExile 6,327 2 10/16/01 06:08 AM
by Anno
* Increasing the potency of P. Cubensis: A Dream Lucid420 1,829 6 09/20/01 01:15 PM
by meme
* Sexual fusion in P. cubensis no-tone 1,000 4 02/25/03 02:49 PM
by no-tone
* incubation temperature for p. cubensis adroit_synth 5,683 12 01/24/04 07:27 PM
by adroit_synth
* Re: Cambodian First Flush of P. cubensis (some pic.) Anonymous 1,617 7 07/11/00 05:37 PM
by Druggie
* Wood chips and P.Cubensis?? Glacius 2,663 4 10/22/02 01:02 PM
by Glacius
* Lamai Strains of P. Cubensis from Thailand mjshroomer 886 1 05/23/01 12:01 PM
by mjshroomer
* p.Tropicalis Chewy 1,420 9 10/22/01 07:25 PM
by Anonymous

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: RogerRabbit, Pastywhyte, bodhisatta
9,181 topic views. 0 members, 4 guests and 4 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.058 seconds spending 0.009 seconds on 14 queries.