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Invisibledee_N_ae
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9/11 (?)victims(?) - Good Example
    #1038819 - 11/09/02 02:33 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

In the "just WHO are we?!?" thread Lozt Soul brought up the viewpoint that we choose EVERYTHING in our life, and nothing is left up to fate because there is no such thing. (<<<<<not my opinoion, just using an example :grin:)

Then it was argued by Swami whether the victims of 9/11 chose to "suffer a horrible death by fire?" and my response was:

"But they did choose to go to work that day, upholding the system that created the impetus for the terrorist attacks.
So by doing so, they chose (on a much different level than "I am going to work today") to die.

Those 3,000 some people should be an example for the rest of Americans.
Do you support our government? Yes? Do you want to end up like those people? "

In my original post I said "role model for the rest of Americans" but I think "exapmle" is a better term.

I know these people did not consciously decide to die that day, that is not what I'm saying.
They chose to go to work, at the WTC and the Pentagon (the nature of these buildings and what goes on inside them is what's important here).
The fact that they worked in these places to begin with tells me that they were all "model Americans" to some degree.

The ultimate point here is that "Model Americans" are going to end up suffering a horrible death by fire.

Mods: In my eyes this thread belongs in an imaginary forum that covers topics somewhere between Spirituality, Philosophy, and Politics.  :grin:

Thoughts?           


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Anonymous

Re: 9/11 (?)victims(?) - Good Example [Re: dee_N_ae]
    #1038822 - 11/09/02 02:35 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Yes, let's all stay home and not work so we won't burn alive. That's great logic.


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Invisibledee_N_ae
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Re: 9/11 (?)victims(?) - Good Example [Re: Anonymous]
    #1038831 - 11/09/02 02:40 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

heh.
You're completely missing my point.

*simplest terms possible*
No one's going to want to attack you with a jet liner if you're not working for the US government.


Edited by dee_N_ae (11/09/02 02:40 PM)


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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
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Re: 9/11 (?)victims(?) - Good Example [Re: dee_N_ae]
    #1038866 - 11/09/02 02:58 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I know these people did not consciously decide to die that day,

How?

Let's just get hypothetical here for a minute Dee(since this IS just an imaginary forum :wink: Okay, to incorporate some of(my interpretation) of Lozt Soul's view RE reincarnation as well as individuals choosing their own destinies.....

wouldn't it be possible that all the people that died that day had chosen that exact time and method of dying B4 they were reincarnated here? And that particular rendezvous with their chosen destinies had brought them all together in that place at that time?

i have to say, i personally have no real beliefs concerning reincarnation as i have never had any kind of personal experience with past life regression or any of that stuff.....i do believe(from experience) that i do posess an eternal spark(or soul), but to me that is no real proof(to me) that i have lived B4 at anytime other than where i am now..... :smile: 


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: 9/11 (?)victims(?) - Good Example [Re: dee_N_ae]
    #1038869 - 11/09/02 03:00 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I disagree... the only reason why everyone hates us is because we're "top dog".

No country is perfect (I've seen a few...), but they're all different in some way (hence it's a different country- whatever). Some of these differences (from the US) are great, and some of these differences are horrible. Overall though, I have to say that our country is the shit. The only problem is that WE ARE the Superpower... and whenever you're on top, you get the most dissent.

I can't say for sure that if another country was in our position that I wouldn't be doing the same thing.

Another thing- most (BOTD) of those people were innocent, don't be a jerk-off and say they weren't. Shuffling papers in a cubicle 40 hours a week for your 30k a year shouldn't be a capital offense.


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Anonymous

Re: 9/11 (?)victims(?) - Good Example [Re: Sclorch]
    #1038876 - 11/09/02 03:03 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

>No one's going to want to attack you with a jet liner if you're not working for the US government.

The WTC was used by many private businesses as well. They weren't a target because they were government buildings, they were a target because they were symbols of capitalism and a country which prides itself on lack of government intervention.


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Invisibledee_N_ae
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Re: 9/11 (?)victims(?) - Good Example [Re: Anonymous]
    #1039108 - 11/09/02 05:25 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Mr. Librium:
"How?"
You're right, I shouldn't be so quick to assume that everyone doesn't wake up some days feeling like they want to die.  :laugh:
It's possible the choice to die that day was sub-conscious, I won't deny that.  Actually that was something I hoped to get across in my post....I think  :smile:

Sclorch:
"I disagree... the only reason why everyone hates us is because we're "top dog"."

I'm not exactly sure how that refutes anything I've said...

"Another thing- most (BOTD) of those people were innocent, don't be a jerk-off and say they weren't. Shuffling papers in a cubicle 40 hours a week for your 30k a year shouldn't be a capital offense."

:smirk:
I appreciate the exaggeration as it helps prove your point, but I was not saying the people who died on 9/11 were immoral and punishable by law or should have been construed as such.

While I have a lot of respect for those people simply because they worked in a cubicle shuffling papers 40 hours a week for 30k a year, I (for the sake of debate) despise the end result of all that paper pushing - ie The U.S. being "top dog".
(yes, I know that what went on in the WTC and the Pentagon did not solely determine the U.S's position as "top dog"... there are many more agencies and bureaus blah blahbla  :wink:)

Stonedfish:
"The WTC was used by many private businesses as well. They weren't a target because they were government buildings, they were a target because they were symbols of capitalism and a country which prides itself on lack of government intervention. "

Well you're right about that, ..except for the U.S. lacking gov. intervention but that is a large matter of opinion and is a whole other issue.

To me the line between our government and financial institutions is infinitely blurred, so I kind of see it as "different warts on the same beast", to use a fanatical analogy.     


Edited by dee_N_ae (11/09/02 06:37 PM)


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: 9/11 (?)victims(?) - Good Example [Re: Sclorch]
    #1040168 - 11/10/02 02:58 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I disagree... the only reason why everyone hates us is because we're "top dog".

Nah, the world isn't as simple as George Bush tells you. There's a lot more to this than "the evil mastermind who is jealous of mcdonalds".

Althought clearly Bush thinks that's as complex an analysis as many americans are able to understand.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: 9/11 (?)victims(?) - Good Example [Re: Xlea321]
    #1040221 - 11/10/02 03:25 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Sclorch: I disagree... the only reason why everyone hates us is because we're "top dog".
Al: Nah, the world isn't as simple as George Bush tells you. There's a lot more to this than "the evil mastermind who is jealous of mcdonalds".

1. It's not a simple conclusion. However... the U.S. IS the only real superpower that survived the cold war. Therefore, being the "dominant" superpower... we are most certainly "TOP DOG".

2. With all the stupid shit we've done (CIA and whatnot) in the past years overseas... and since we're still reigning champs (*sarcasm*), we get the smack in the face and the majority of the dissent.

3. Also, let's not forget the role the media plays in the schema of things. The American media (Hollywood included) sells OUR (this can be defined and argued til the end of time) perception of reality to the rest of the world. Thereby making the rest of the world look inferior due to their lack of OUR culture. So we got a little technological edge... doesn't mean shit to you or me, but it means a helluva lot to some young girl - who grew up starving in India - who just saw Legally Blonde and now dreams of having blonde hair and a nice manicure. It sucks... but few (if any) in the WTC had much to do with that movie being shown in India.

Also realize that our media is meant to entertain us. When foreignors (like the one described above) see our movies... they aren't entertained... they're DAZZLED. The message is lost to them (and in many cases, it doesn't even fucking APPLY). So, it really can't be argued that because a movie is popular here, it justified the WTC bombers' actions. If anything, they were responding to the DAZZLE rather than the entertainment factor. I'm sure most Americans don't support movies because when they're shown to foreign audiences, the movies show off American luxury and how we're so much better or whatever...

4. Globalization is not a US-sponsored phenomena. It just started here first (it took France awhile to realize this... but I think they understand it now, for the most part).


Al:Althought clearly Bush thinks that's as complex an analysis as many americans are able to understand.

I think he's right in that assumption. You're one of the few that don't buy his simple explanations... but you MUST realize that he's not talking to you. Duh!
____________________________________________________

I don't see how you can disagree, Alex, but go ahead.


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InvisibleUlysees
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Re: 9/11 (?)victims(?) - Good Example [Re: Sclorch]
    #1040336 - 11/10/02 04:54 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Like the Yin and the Yang, we seem to be on top; give it a spin, however, and perhaps we, as human beings, are closer to equal, despite the great contrast in our lifestyles.
There's my dose of Zen for ya'll. :wink:

If North America culture was hidden, there would indeed be a lot less hurt feelings, and therefore less support or desire for retaliation, even if we continued a lot of our "bad" business abroad.
The U.S. might sport the flashing bullseye now (it's Vegas, btw :wink:), but if Canada had the extra cash to not only live our current lifestyle, but really wave the bling around Hollywood style, we just might be equal targets (though we might almost be in the eyes of those who "count," so far as threats go), even if we didn't take part in much of the actual raping and pillaging. :wink:
Maybe, anyhow. It's not like I've got a degree in foreign opinion. :grin:

I think we rich nations are despicably greedy, and I wouldn't be very fond of us if I was dying, and only required the price of a cup o' joe to survive. :wink:
While children die still suckling at their dead mothers long since dry breast, I'm driving downtown to catch Spiderman for $12 CDN, suckin' down a $4 taco, and chain-smoking a $9 pack of Players. Later, while another starving kid is boiling some extremely premature bananas for sustenance, and his sister is picking through garbage and syringes at the dump, I'll be playing my Playstation 2 -GTA Vice City is out, fuckin' sweet- or perhaps checking out some DVDs. Unfortunately, that starving kid's father just got cluster bombed or stepped on an old land-mine, who knows (not that it makes any difference, the kid'll never find out), while working the only job he can get--the local militia.

I'm as guilty as anyone, and I won't lie--I'm not gonna change unless you do. Fuck 'em, we all die one day. :wink:   


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: 9/11 (?)victims(?) - Good Example [Re: Sclorch]
    #1040410 - 11/10/02 05:53 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah that makes more sense Sclorch - US foreign policy plays a big part in this. I don't think some Afghan living in a mudhut who hasn't seen a television for the last 20 years is going to care either way about american culture or how rich they are. The vast majority of Afghans couldn't give a fuck about Islam or america. They are too busy trying to survive. The majority of the population will get angry at America when american bombs start falling on them or americans spray their poppy crops and take heir livelihoods away.

Osama was worth about 300 million anyway so I can't see him being too jealous of anyone.


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InvisibleUlysees
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Re: 9/11 (?)victims(?) - Good Example [Re: Xlea321]
    #1040513 - 11/10/02 08:31 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Osama is more of a religious fanatic, but jealousy most likely comes into it; though he's rich, many of his people aren't (assuming he does care about those he seems to care about).

Plus, everyone needs an enemy. He's obviously delusional and/or suffering a severe martyr complex, so he gets a kick out of taking on the Top Dogs. War is a big thing in religion, from the Quran to the Old Testament. It must be a massive ego trip to take on someone like the U.S., and believe that you're on the holiest of missions. I doubt there's one among us who wouldn't get the exact same kick from taking on G.W.B., Osama, etc, however you saw fit: a political debate, for instance, in which you had the ability to actually make some kind of difference, or at least become famous. Osama happens to think spilling the blood of infidels is the way to go. Bush thinks that spilling the blood of infidels is a necessary evil to ensure his peeps are safe (though I bet he, like myself to a degree, gets off on it). Everyone considers themselves to be quite holy.
Saddam is just one paranoid dude. :grin:
Unlike most other people of considerable power, he's truly from the school of hard knocks, and he lives by its rules. 

For one reason or another, the majority of people tend to follow their leaders, until their leaders actions start to negatively affect that majority (unless it is an un-united majority, as in the case of drug users). 


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OfflineLoverofEarth
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Re: 9/11 (?)victims(?) - Good Example [Re: dee_N_ae]
    #1040564 - 11/10/02 10:01 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I think that no one can really choose to be murdered. Just about every religion in the world forbids murder. I mean, I believe that people do choose, whether consciously or unconsciously or before they incarnate, etc., what is going to happen to them. I don't know, I'm just rambling. But no one chooses to die by violence.


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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
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Re: 9/11 (?)victims(?) - Good Example [Re: LoverofEarth]
    #1040567 - 11/10/02 10:07 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I mean, I believe that people do choose, whether consciously or unconsciously or before they incarnate, etc., what is going to happen to them.

. But no one chooses to die by violence.

well if you do believe in reincarnation and people choosing their lives before reassuming corporeal form, then by that reasoning it would seem(to me) that those people did in fact choose to die in the manner in which they did......



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InvisibleUlysees
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Re: 9/11 (?)victims(?) - Good Example [Re: LoverofEarth]
    #1040587 - 11/10/02 10:39 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

>Just about every religion in the world forbids murder.

Except Islam and Christianity, perhaps. Ever looked at the Old Testament of the Bible? It's full of slaughter--including 9/11 style massacres (though I'm no expert on the Bible).
I haven't looked at the Quran myself, but there's been lots of talk about it lately. Unless it's all a metaphor for destroying the evil inside others with the power of love, there is a strong theme of killing the opposition, or infidels...

>But no one chooses to die by violence.

Lot's of people do. Martyrs, sadomasochists, and suicides, for example. I think they're all pretty much the same thing, actually. How about Jesus? Crucifiction is pretty violent.


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InvisibleUlysees
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Re: 9/11 (?)victims(?) - Good Example [Re: FreakQlibrium]
    #1040589 - 11/10/02 10:41 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

>well if you do believe in reincarnation and people choosing their lives before reassuming corporeal form, then by that reasoning it would seem(to me) that those people did in fact choose to die in the manner in which they did......

Interesting thought. :smile:


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InvisibleFreakQlibrium
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Re: 9/11 (?)victims(?) - Good Example [Re: Ulysees]
    #1040595 - 11/10/02 10:43 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Interesting thought.  :smile:

Just playing the devil's advocate :wink: 


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: 9/11 (?)victims(?) - Good Example [Re: Sclorch]
    #1042862 - 11/11/02 10:42 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

In reply to:

I disagree... the only reason why everyone hates us is because we're "top dog".




Its how you went about becoming and go about maintaining your "top dog" status that pisses large swathes of the rest humanity off.



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InvisibleIn(di)go
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Re: 9/11 (?)victims(?) - Good Example [Re: dee_N_ae]
    #1045822 - 11/12/02 11:20 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

my point was, that every person chooses every aspect and situation in their lives... it could be in-, sub-, or consciously... every person you meet, everything that happens to you is called into your life by one of these aspects of your consciousness, sadly most people dont realize this... and run around "why is this happening to me?"
in the case of 9/11, it was mass consciousness that caused the event to happen...


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Edited by Lozt Soul (11/12/02 12:14 PM)


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Invisibledee_N_ae
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Re: 9/11 (?)victims(?) - Good Example [Re: In(di)go]
    #1045851 - 11/12/02 11:36 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Thanks for some clarification...
I suppose the "terrorists" and the "victims" were all more closely connected than they could ever imagine.  :blush: 


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