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OfflineGhengisKhan
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Registered: 03/18/09
Posts: 101
Last seen: 12 years, 2 months
A clarification on atheism
    #10369107 - 05/20/09 11:13 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Atheism has often been tagged as a religion itself, complete with its own ideology and dogma. But really, the only dogmatic similarity between atheism and religions is that atheism has a title. Atheism though, is only called such out of necessity to oppose religion. Otherwise, it need not even have a title. After all we don't have a title for most sorts of disbelief where disbelief is very reasonable. For example, we do not have name for people who disbelieve that lobsters are the reincarnation of Ghandi, or for people who disbelieve that world was created and instant ago complete with memories, history, and organization, although these beliefs are, like accepted religious ideas, equally unfalsifiable and unsupported by evidence. Another point is that we are all atheists with respect to 99% of all gods or religious beliefs ever believed (And they were held with just as much conviction as your beliefs). Those belonging to one religion probably find other religions to be obviously wrong. The atheist just takes it one step further. Also, what is the biggest predictor of what religion you choose? Could it be... the religious beliefs of your parents? Or those in your proximity? The answer is overwhelmingly yes. It shows to me the remarkable plasticity and ability of human religious faculties to be imprinted on, not its ability to realize truth.

Another important misconception about atheism is that it is the outright denial of the existence of god. I assure you it is not, or is not meant to be. Atheism is the current logical default. It's not the point of atheism to blindly say there is no god, but to consider  the evidence and come to the conclusion that no religious ideas have enough apparent validity to accept. So first and foremost, I think religious people should have to justify their belief before atheists have to justify their disbelief.

Atheism is also not a philosophy of nihilism, despair, and pointlessness. The universe is totally cool, elegant, interesting, marvelous, intricate and beautiful without the help of a supernatural agent. I live my life in an almost constant state of awe. I revel in the experience of existing and feeling, while simultaneously trying to take a stab at understanding how things work. It gives me great pleasure. Purpose in the world comes a lot from compassionate interaction with other people. And animals and plants. And the occasional fungus. :wink:

Other atheists, I hope I have represented your feelings somewhat fairly. Peace.


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"When any answer is possible all answers are meaningless" --Isaac Asimov

"Pour me a drink so I can refuse to toast" --Lorie Moore

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Offlinelaserpig
Weedmaster_P

Registered: 04/28/09
Posts: 7,468
Last seen: 11 years, 9 months
Re: A clarification on atheism [Re: GhengisKhan]
    #10369127 - 05/20/09 11:16 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

GhengisKhan said:Another important misconception about atheism is that it is the outright denial of the existence of god. I assure you it is not, or is not meant to be. Atheism is the current logical default. It's not the point of atheism to blindly say there is no god, but to consider  the evidence and come to the conclusion that no religious ideas have enough apparent validity to accept. So first and foremost, I think religious people should have to justify their belief before atheists have to justify their disbelief.



Technically that's agnosticism. Atheism does imply certainty.

But...
Quote:

GhengisKhan said:Atheism is also not a philosophy of nihilism, despair, and pointlessness. The universe is totally cool, elegant, interesting, marvelous, intricate and beautiful without the help of a supernatural agent. I live my life in an almost constant state of awe. I revel in the experience of existing and feeling, while simultaneously trying to take a stab at understanding how things work. It gives me great pleasure. Purpose in the world comes a lot from compassionate interaction with other people. And animals and plants. And the occasional fungus. :wink:




Still spot on in representing how I personally feel about the world :thumbup:


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Weedmaster P knows the truth.

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OfflineGhengisKhan
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Registered: 03/18/09
Posts: 101
Last seen: 12 years, 2 months
Re: A clarification on atheism [Re: laserpig]
    #10369213 - 05/20/09 11:32 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

laserpig said:
Quote:

GhengisKhan said:Another important misconception about atheism is that it is the outright denial of the existence of god. I assure you it is not, or is not meant to be. Atheism is the current logical default. It's not the point of atheism to blindly say there is no god, but to consider  the evidence and come to the conclusion that no religious ideas have enough apparent validity to accept. So first and foremost, I think religious people should have to justify their belief before atheists have to justify their disbelief.



Technically that's agnosticism. Atheism does imply certainty.





In a broad sense, I think agnostics say the nature of God is fundamentally unknowable, whereas atheists reserve all belief about the existence of deities. I fall in the latter category.


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"When any answer is possible all answers are meaningless" --Isaac Asimov

"Pour me a drink so I can refuse to toast" --Lorie Moore

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
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Re: A clarification on atheism [Re: GhengisKhan]
    #10369368 - 05/20/09 12:06 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

I would agree that atheism is not in itself a religion(nor is theism, by the way).  But there are certain atheistic belief systems which do have some of the trappings of religion:  Humanism, Objectivism, Marxism, etc.  I think those proselytizers for atheism like Hitchens and Dawkins seem to have a sort of religious conviction about their beliefs.  Of course, there are even some "official" religions which don't involve a personal god, such as Buddhism and Taoism.  So to differentiate these non-theistic religions from what we normally think of atheism, I use terms like "materialism" and "physicalism" to represent more accurately the views of those who are generally lumped under the category of atheism.

I'd also like to address this point:
Quote:

Another point is that we are all atheists with respect to 99% of all gods or religious beliefs ever believed (And they were held with just as much conviction as your beliefs).



This is a point brought up frequently, but it doesn't take account of the views of perrenialists, who see all gods in all religions as archetypal manifestations of the one universal God.  I may not literally believe in Thor or Odin in the same sense that the Vikings may have, but I can still recognize their partial truth, and at the same time also recognize the partial truths of other religions, and even of atheism.


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OfflineGhengisKhan
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Registered: 03/18/09
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Re: A clarification on atheism [Re: Silversoul]
    #10369861 - 05/20/09 01:43 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

When I speak of atheism I do not intend for it only to apply to the major literate religions with a God or deities. I think it applies to the disbelief in all forms of supernatural explanation. Humanism, Objectivism, Marxism, and materialism, may have philosophical value and marry well with atheism, but atheism does not necessitate their existence. Perrenialists may accept some truth in all religions, but they cannot logically accept all parts of all religions, since religions often have mutually exclusive ideologies. So they must be atheistic with respect to many specific religious beliefs.

I would also say that, as an atheist, I most strongly oppose those religions whose codified rules obscure morality and reason in a way that can be harmful to others. If a religion or spirituality completely leaves room for reason and morality in the sociopolitical sphere, then I would say that the belief may be unfounded and unnecessary but go for it.

And those who I don't like to get away so easy are the religious moderates. I believe you when you say that you are not out to hurt anybody and you want to love your neighbor and be a good person. Fine. But realize that your existence gives credence to those who use the religion as a vice to do harmful things.

I think my major three points hold up:

1. Atheism is not a dogma
2. Atheism does not necessarily deny outright the existence of God or Gods
3. Atheism leaves room for pleasures akin to spirituality


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"When any answer is possible all answers are meaningless" --Isaac Asimov

"Pour me a drink so I can refuse to toast" --Lorie Moore

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: A clarification on atheism [Re: GhengisKhan]
    #10370440 - 05/20/09 03:46 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:


Another important misconception about atheism is that it is the outright denial of the existence of god. I assure you it is not, or is not meant to be. Atheism is the current logical default. It's not the point of atheism to blindly say there is no god, but to consider  the evidence and come to the conclusion that no religious ideas have enough apparent validity to accept. So first and foremost, I think religious people should have to justify their belief before atheists have to justify their disbelief.







Well your defining atheism to be essentially identical to agnosticism. 


This is not a definition that I think is most correct to ascribe to the word- and I fee it shouldn't be used without clarifying that's what your doing.



I've seen folks make this claim (citing a dictionary quite often when that's a poor source of justification for obvious reasons, or using a breakdown of the etymological components of the word) and I never understood why.  If your goal is to communicate why wouldn't you just use the word agnosticism?


I feel agnosticism is clearly understood and so people should use that word to describe what your talking about unless they clarify their meaning.  If someone can justify that atheism is indeed the correct word then fine, but it still doesn't surmount the difficulties in communication this use invokes.



It seems like people just trying to change the word to make their label logical once they realize belief that god doesn't exist is just as untenable and illogical as belief that god does exist.

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InvisibleRahz
Alive Again
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Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,260
Re: A clarification on atheism [Re: johnm214]
    #10370936 - 05/20/09 05:02 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

In a general sense, atheism is the lack of a belief in deity. This does not preclude the possibility that there is a deity.

There is only a slight difference between atheism, and agnosticism. If agnosticism states that it's not possible to ascertain deity claims, and atheism states that there is no belief in deity, they are rubbing pretty closely together. I used to consider the definitive statement of agnosticism to be "I don't know", but actually agnosticism says "It's not possible to know", and atheism states "I don't know". The word agnostic is a little abrasive to me. Going by the word alone, it implies that one is against knowledge. I'd like to know the nature of ultimate reality, but I don't, and since I cannot logically ascertain the nature of ultimate reality at this time, I don't have a belief in regards to it, so am atheist. I also don't know whether it's possible to know, therefore I cannot consider myself agnostic. I used to think being agnostic was more mild than being atheistic, but it actually seems the other way around.

Both words have been shaped by culture, and the general connotations can be misleading.

Life is mystical, no matter what the belief, or lack thereof.


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rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Registered: 04/01/07
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Re: A clarification on atheism [Re: GhengisKhan]
    #10371069 - 05/20/09 05:19 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Atheism has often been tagged as a religion itself, complete with its own ideology and dogma. But really, the only dogmatic similarity between atheism and religions is that atheism has a title.




Are you saying that I have to turn in my robe and tell my disciples to go home? :confused: :frown:


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InvisibleRahz
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Registered: 11/10/05
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Re: A clarification on atheism [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10371213 - 05/20/09 05:44 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Here's something from Wikipedia.

Quote:

In a 1930 New York Times article,[59] Einstein distinguished three styles which are usually intermixed in actual religion. The first is motivated by fear and poor understanding of causality, and hence invents supernatural beings. The second is social and moral, motivated by desire for love and support. Einstein noted that both have an anthropomorphic concept of God. The third style, which Einstein deemed most mature, is motivated by a deep sense of awe and mystery. He said, "The individual feels ... the sublimity and marvelous order which reveal themselves in nature ... and he wants to experience the universe as a single significant whole." Einstein saw science as an antagonist of the first two styles of religion, but as a partner of the third style.

Einstein was also a Humanist and a supporter of Ethical Culture. He served on the advisory board of the First Humanist Society of New York.[60][61] For the seventy-fifth anniversary of the New York Society for Ethical Culture, he noted that the idea of Ethical Culture embodied his personal conception of what is most valuable and enduring in religious idealism. He observed, "Without 'ethical culture' there is no salvation for humanity."




"The third style, which Einstein deemed most mature, is motivated by a deep sense of awe and mystery."

Quote:

Atheism is also not a philosophy of nihilism, despair, and pointlessness. The universe is totally cool, elegant, interesting, marvelous, intricate and beautiful without the help of a supernatural agent. I live my life in an almost constant state of awe. I revel in the experience of existing and feeling, while simultaneously trying to take a stab at understanding how things work. It gives me great pleasure. Purpose in the world comes a lot from compassionate interaction with other people. And animals and plants. And the occasional fungus.




:thumbup:


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi

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Invisiblesterbeklang
w/e
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Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 824
Loc: Filthy Rock
Re: A clarification on atheism [Re: GhengisKhan]
    #10372942 - 05/20/09 10:44 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

I think a lot of Atheists could be more accurately labeled as "Secular Humanists," especially if they focus on the belief that humans are capable of improving their current situation.  I don't qualify for that upgrade, however.

A lot of people now call the majority of the United States founding fathers "Deists," in that they believed a God existed, but also believed he had nothing to do with our day-to-day living, so it was up to us to control our own destiny.  Kind of like this entity just came in and created us, then disappeared and left us to own devices.


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OfflineSventington
am what I am what I am what I am

Registered: 01/17/09
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Last seen: 12 years, 7 months
Re: A clarification on atheism [Re: sterbeklang]
    #10372979 - 05/20/09 10:53 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Yeah I found that intruiging for awhile, but in the end I couldn't figure out why God would just up and leave after creation. Still, Deism is kind of neat.

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Invisiblesterbeklang
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Registered: 03/03/09
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Loc: Filthy Rock
Re: A clarification on atheism [Re: Sventington]
    #10373059 - 05/20/09 11:08 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Sventington said:
Yeah I found that intruiging for awhile, but in the end I couldn't figure out why God would just up and leave after creation. Still, Deism is kind of neat.




I think under Deism God can still "watch" as it were, but he does not meddle in human affairs.  It is curious, but I bet a lot of modern Christians would actually fall under that category.  But instead of words like "God," Deists were keen to use terms like "Divine Watchmaker" and "Grand Architect of the Universe."


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Offlinedopelogic
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Registered: 11/04/08
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Re: A clarification on atheism [Re: sterbeklang]
    #10374976 - 05/21/09 08:18 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

To outright deny the existence of any deity is just as big a fallacy as believing in one. Therefore Atheism does NOT deny the existence of a deity, it just postpones ANY belief without appropriate proof. IMO anyway

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Offlinedopelogic
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Re: A clarification on atheism [Re: dopelogic]
    #10374986 - 05/21/09 08:20 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Also, I was under the impression that Agnosticism was the belief of a deity but a dismissal of formal, structured religious ceremony. Please correct me if I am mistaken.

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
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Re: A clarification on atheism [Re: dopelogic]
    #10375091 - 05/21/09 08:50 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

dopelogic said:
Also, I was under the impression that Agnosticism was the belief of a deity but a dismissal of formal, structured religious ceremony. Please correct me if I am mistaken.



You are mistaken.


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