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Offlinetyler_0_durden
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MyTheory of Reality: Psychedelics, Consciousness, and Quantum Physics
    #10351702 - 05/17/09 03:47 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

So , I checked my inbox today for the first time in a while, and I noticed I had a PM from another member on this site (feel free to speak up when you find this topic). Anyway, his ideas and opinions provoked some thoughts I've been having about how reality works.

This is about the possible relationship of quantum physics,  psychedelics, and consciousness.

The main deal with quantum physics is that a state, in a superposition of many states, collapses into a single state when observed by a conscious individual. My theory takes psychedelics into account. The visuals, or "hallucinations" produced on psychedelics, which could really be described as just fractals manipulating our vision, are the result of the brain's inability to collapse the state vector, or wavefunction, of a particular quantum system. See, normally, our brains can cause this collapse just fine, for whatever reason. We observe reality to be static and in one state when we look at it (i.e., a stationary object really does appear stationary). However, on psychedelics, such as mushrooms and LSD, this collapsing ability is altered or hindered, and we observe superpositions of our surroundings. This causes reality to appear in motion.

To further branch off from my theory, is that when in a sober mindset, the reason why reality around a conscious individual appears to be static or in one state is because this individual is entangled with their surroundings, since they are part of this system.entanglement is generally accepted in quantum physics as a very real phenomenon. A good analogy of this would be two cars driving on the freeway. When one car approaches the other car, matching that car's speed, the two cars appear to be unmoving when one driver observes the other driver. This is because they are in the same relative motion.

So, whilst on psychedelics, you notice that all of matter is moving a particular way, including you, this appears to be fairly good suggestive evidence that you are indeed in a superposition or are entangled with your surroundings, since the same observable effects of matter happen when you look at a chair as when you look at your hand or a part of your body. This however, can only be true if psychedelics indeed disable the part of your brain or consciousness that collapses the state vector, and assuming quantum physics is also true.

Same goes for when you're sober: When you look at that chair, it's not moving, and the matter comprising you is also not moving (at least, your outer appearance is not moving). This is due to your brain or consciousness collapsing the state vector of your surroundings, as well as you, because you are self-aware.

Also, this theory of mine seems to make some sense when we bring general relativity or classical physics into account with larger objects. When you observe a very large object, such as a mountain, on psychedelics, it does not appear to move or waver as much as say, a small shrub in your front yard. The shrub will look like its ablaze as green fire, twisting, swirling, and spiraling outward on itself. The mountain is likely to just look bigger or more vibrant in color. Therefore, it behaves more classically than smaller objects because of its large mass.

Let me know what you guys think. I believe that the term "superposition" applies to all matter, not just electron spin, or charge, or what have you. My argument is that psychedelics prove quantum physics, because when on psychedelics, you observe reality to be in a superposition of many states. Your brain is unable to collapse the state vector and thus, all reality appears to be in fluid motion, not sure whether it wants to be "right there", or "slightly over there". Do you guys know what I'm alluding to here?

I am not sure how the heck this theory could be tested, because in a research setting, you are likely to have researchers who would prefer to stay sober, observing individuals who are on psychedelics, and thus the state vector still collapses for these researchers. It's not like you can round up a bunch of guys tripping on LSD, throw them into a room, and have one sober researcher there watching them, because reality is going to of course, be static or in one state, to the researcher. And if everyone, including the researcher, were on LSD, then the experiment would lose all credibility because the researcher could just attribute the superposition of reality to be a by-product of them tripping. :*(

This would have to be done, solely by tripping individuals, conducting measurable results of some property of nature.

For example: proving that reality can exist in a superposition of states, you could aim a ball at the side of a tree, wall, or what have you, with a simple ball launcher used in batting cages. Line up the shot so that the ball would just barely miss the edge of the object under normal conditions (i.e., when a person is sober and collapsing the state of the object). Then, have only tripping individuals around this experiment at the time it is being conducted, and fire the ball, whilst observing the object. If indeed my theory holds to be true, the ball may bounce off the protruding edge of the object (since the object in question may possibly be in several positions at once, thus potentially blocking the path of the ball), when in actuality, it would have zipped cleanly by the edge of the object if the conscious individuals were sober during the experiment.

I hope this makes some sense...to someone.

By the way, don't steal my theory. I'd be more than willing to allow anyone on this forum to test this theory though. :smile:


-Tyler Durden


--------------------
"As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clear headed science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research about atoms this much: There is no matter as such. All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter."  --Max Planck

Edited by tyler_0_durden (05/17/09 05:44 AM)

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Invisibledeimya
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Re: MyTheory of Reality: Psychedelics, Consciousness, and Quantum Physics [Re: tyler_0_durden]
    #10353114 - 05/17/09 12:20 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

So it's like Schrödinger's cat but from the cat's perspective. It's interestingly trippy for sure, but whether it's purely subjective effect or not you're still stuck with the measurement problem, e.g. what causes this "part of the brain" that collapses the wave function to actually collapse into the state of "collapsing the wave function" ?

Also, although tempting, you can't simply abstract the conscious experience as some kind localized quantum state of a part of your brain. You're a whole brain, a whole body and a whole individual interacting with his whole environment, i.e. the world and people around you are ubiquitous, and so each time you're observing the environment, the environment gazes back at you. Worst, even when you're not looking, the environment is looking at you.

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Offlinetyler_0_durden
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Re: MyTheory of Reality: Psychedelics, Consciousness, and Quantum Physics [Re: deimya]
    #10358157 - 05/18/09 11:55 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Yeah, it's like the perspective of the cat, or I guess it can also be a off-shoot of the Copenhagen interpretation.

It seems like we are helplessly entangled with all our surroundings. Does this mean that matter which we do not directly interact with physically still influence us? By quantum physics, it does. And with predictions of our universe being comprised of 75% dark matter (or matter which we cannot see), it makes you wonder exactly what is going on with the relationship of us as living entities to everything else. Are quantum laws connected with what gives us life, or maybe consciousness itself? That is, if they were any different, could this universe support life? (Keep in mind, I don't really want to drag this into a religious discussion because it tends to cloud arguments and then we get off topic...even though I am religious, but this is not the point).

Maybe psychedelics could cause us to "detach" from this entanglement, if only temporarily.

This is also why I'm curious as to further studies with psychedelics on the human brain. We could potentially discover the source of consciousness using these compounds, or perhaps discover that the brain indeed does quantum computations with perceived reality, giving manifest to our experience.

I can't get over how fascinating these implications are!

I'm trying to find a picture of this comic strip that shows exactly what I'm trying to allude to here... it's featured in the book Quantum Enigma: Physics Encounters Consciousness. I have it at home, but I'll have to scan it and upload it online at a library seeing as I don't have a scanner. It definitely shows what I'm trying to say pretty well, and in a funny way.


--------------------
"As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clear headed science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research about atoms this much: There is no matter as such. All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter."  --Max Planck

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OfflineAnnom
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Re: MyTheory of Reality: Psychedelics, Consciousness, and Quantum Physics [Re: tyler_0_durden]
    #10358392 - 05/18/09 12:41 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

The main deal with quantum physics is that a state, in a superposition of many states, collapses into a single state when observed by a conscious individual




Wave functions collapse when something is "measured". I've never really understood what a "measurement" is and I think this definition of measurement is a major problem in quantum mechanics (Schrodinger's cat). However, I don't see any reason to believe that a measurement is only something observed by a conscious individual. That would require some kind of dualism (separation of mind and body) and raises the question; what is conscious? Is a cat conscious enough to collapse a wave? An ant? A baby? etc?

Why do you think only a conscious being causes a wave collapse?

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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: MyTheory of Reality: Psychedelics, Consciousness, and Quantum Physics [Re: Annom]
    #10358578 - 05/18/09 01:14 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I was thinking the same thing ^^

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Offlinezouden
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Re: MyTheory of Reality: Psychedelics, Consciousness, and Quantum Physics [Re: tyler_0_durden]
    #10359609 - 05/18/09 04:37 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Maybe psychedelics could cause us to "detach" from this entanglement, if only temporarily.




You might enjoy this: Quarantine, by Greg Egan

Without giving too much away, it's a novel based around the idea that the ability to collapse quantum wave-states by observing them is a particularly human trait, caused by an organ in our brain. There's a brain-damaged girl who lacks this, so she is only collapsed when people look at her. It's a very interesting and enjoyable read.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Offlinetyler_0_durden
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Re: MyTheory of Reality: Psychedelics, Consciousness, and Quantum Physics [Re: Annom]
    #10361764 - 05/18/09 10:57 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Annom said:
Quote:

The main deal with quantum physics is that a state, in a superposition of many states, collapses into a single state when observed by a conscious individual




Wave functions collapse when something is "measured". I've never really understood what a "measurement" is and I think this definition of measurement is a major problem in quantum mechanics (Schrodinger's cat). However, I don't see any reason to believe that a measurement is only something observed by a conscious individual. That would require some kind of dualism (separation of mind and body) and raises the question; what is conscious? Is a cat conscious enough to collapse a wave? An ant? A baby? etc?

Why do you think only a conscious being causes a wave collapse?




Well, it's kind of hard for me to explain, but it goes into the way the brain mediates waking life and sleep patterns. I'm not positive that only conscious beings could collapse a wavefunction, but it seems to me that they might be. For example, if a robot conducts a look-in-the-box experiment with different sets of colored balls in each box, and then records this data, aren't the balls in the boxes technically still in a superposition until a human verifies the results of the experiment? I guess it's kind of like the idea of, "If a tree in a forest falls, and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?"

If we look at lower life forms, a lot of them appear to operate on "autopilot", kind of. Meaning, if they aren't conscious, they are essentially like programs on a computer. They stem from a certain set of rules and equations, and these equations moderate their lives. The fact that humans are conscious perhaps explains a little reason as to why we are able to do so much more than other animals. I don't think humans are the only ones that are conscious...I would like to think a little consciousness exists in animals such as dogs and cats, though.

If quantum physics can dictate how photons and electrons behave, certainly the theory might have control on say...single-celled organisms? I don't think it could be too far of a stretch to say it can influence the building of DNA? And the fact that our neurons in our brains are very tiny synapses, and the very small ions that cross channels in our brains could behave quantum-mechanically. Therefore, if our brain manifests consciousness using these neurons and ions, it is a quantum system, and as such, would have to be entangled with reality, since quantum physics applies to individual atoms as well.

Serotonin seems to be the primary mediator of waking life. It starts pumping when you're about to slip out of REM sleep, which is when you are unconscious. When you're unconscious, your brain accesses images and thoughts from waking life that you gathered before you fell asleep.

Drugs such as LSD and psilocybin have effects that could be described as "dreaming whilst awake". When you are dreaming naturally, you are unconscious, therefore, you cannot collapse wavefunctions (I know, just a hypothesis). There's more than a few people out there that think that while we are in REM sleep, we are actually experiencing something close to "tripping", which could explain some of the fantastically detailed and wild dreams we sometimes get. I am sort of hypothesizing that DMT could mediate dreams. It seems like a good argument that I found in Dr. Strassman's book, DMT: The Spirit Molecule, and it could explain that weird "fuzzy" feeling you get in your body right before you nod off and fall unconscious, since the same volunteers who were given low doses of I.V. DMT reported the same bodily effects.

Furthermore, the sheer number of different psychedelic compounds found in nature could suggest a relationship on how nature evolves (if quantum physics is true and it follows these laws), then perhaps a reason why psychedelic compounds exist, is to allow someone to experience the world outside of "objectivity".

Looking back at this post, I guess I really don't know how to explain it, haha. But...it seems to make sense to me. When I think of objects in a superposition, I think they could be in multiple places at once, which is what psychedelics make reality look like. We also don't know exactly how psychedelics work, or consciousness, so I think it deserves further study.

And thank you zouden, I will have to go buy that book. For some reason all these topics (psychedelics, quantum physics, consciousness) are really interesting to me.


--------------------
"As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clear headed science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research about atoms this much: There is no matter as such. All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration and holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent mind. This mind is the matrix of all matter."  --Max Planck

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InvisibleChespirito
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Re: MyTheory of Reality: Psychedelics, Consciousness, and Quantum Physics [Re: Annom]
    #10362122 - 05/19/09 12:14 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Thinking about such things has caused me serious problems.  This is actually a large area of research and is quite developed.  Im not up on it largely at all, except for what wikipedia has to say ha. Anyways you can start here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_decoherence

The math gets pretty hairy, at least to me. I seem to have forgotten some of the math that is used, for instance I have no recollection of ever learning about a 'partial trace'.  Anyone have any insight on the partial trace?

The Dirac notation part is fairly straightforward however.

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Invisibledeimya
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Re: MyTheory of Reality: Psychedelics, Consciousness, and Quantum Physics [Re: Chespirito]
    #10364355 - 05/19/09 01:28 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

tl;dr, basically the partial trace is used in quantum mechanics in the density matrix formalism, and it is a tool that tells you the state of a system A alone once you average over the effect a system B has on it. Normally A is a small system and B a bigger one, like any kind of environment (i.e. electromagnetic noise, thermal excitations, phonons, effective harmonic oscillator bath, etc.).

So yeah, taking the partial trace amounts to averaging over a part, or subsystem of the total system.

More precisely , the partial trace of a density matrix is equivalent to summing only over the elements of a subsystem of a joint system. Suppose you have a system in the Hilbert space H = (A tensored B) and a density matrix matrix defined over the whole space H, then the partial trace over B of the density matrix of a joint system in H gives you a density matrix for which every element represents an average over every possible state of B.

Practically, suppose A is the space of a two-level system, like a spin, spanned by the basis {|up>,|down>}, and B the space of every state of your environment spanned by the basis |n>, n=0,1,..., and let rho be the density matrix of such system of spin plus environment, then the most general state of the whole system in such basis is given by Formula: 0 such that

Formula: 1

with sigma and sigma' running over states up and down and n and m running over all state of the environement.

Then taking the partial trace of rho over the environment gives you a new density matrix over A only

Formula: 2
where the indice k runs over every states of the environment, that is over the same states as the indices n and m.
Formula: 3

and so you see that Formula: 4 which initially was an operator telling you about the state of the whole system spin + environement (i.e. from Formula: 5) is now averaged over every states of the environment to give you a reduced density operator Formula: 6 telling you about the the spin alone (i.e. from Formula: 7) once you that into account the effect of the environment on it. That is to say that for which every matrix element associated with Formula: 8 is the expectation value over the state of the environment, that is Formula: 9.

Edited by deimya (05/19/09 01:37 PM)

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InvisibleChespirito
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Re: MyTheory of Reality: Psychedelics, Consciousness, and Quantum Physics [Re: deimya]
    #10365124 - 05/19/09 04:20 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

deimya said:

Formula: 0

with sigma and sigma' running over states up and down and n and m running over all state of the environement.

Then taking the partial trace of rho over the environment gives you a new density matrix over A only

Formula: 1
where the indice k runs over every states of the environment, that is over the same states as the indices n and m.




Now in this last result here, where we have effectively Formula: 2

What am I missing here?  It seems like we are just taking the trace of Formula: 3 as we are summing up the diagonal matrix elements of the operator.  I guess I am confused how from this you get another operator.

I understand what you mean though overall I am just having trouble following the math at this point as its been about a year since Ive done any serious quantum work. 


Edit:  Oh so Formula: 4 is effectively a group of operators?  Meaning in your representation when we do Formula: 2 we are not getting a scalar at the end because each matrix elemnt of Formula: 4 is an operator?

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InvisibleChespirito
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Re: MyTheory of Reality: Psychedelics, Consciousness, and Quantum Physics [Re: Chespirito]
    #10365199 - 05/19/09 04:33 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

It seems like what we are after is basically this, which Ill just write out as I suck at LaTeX

:

Trace_B (rho^A x sigma^B) = rho^A x Trace(sigma^B)

Where x is a direct product.  rho and sigma do not represent what you have above they are just two operators in two spaces

Edited by Chespirito (05/19/09 04:41 PM)

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Invisibledeimya
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Re: MyTheory of Reality: Psychedelics, Consciousness, and Quantum Physics [Re: Chespirito]
    #10365503 - 05/19/09 05:35 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

This last property is not valid in general because is not always possible to express a matrix as a direct product of two matrix. A bit like a state which can not be expressed as a tensor product of two state is said to be entangled.

As for the two posts before, let me try to make it clearer what it means.

Since the Hilbert space of all possible state that you consider in your system is the tensor space, or product space of every state of your spin with every state of the environment, then given that the possible states of your spin in a certain basis are labeled by Formula: 0 (there are two of them Formula: 1 and given that the possible states of the environment are labeled by Formula: 2 (lets say there are N+1 of them, i.e. Formula: 3, then the basis spawning the total system of spin + environment, that is the said product space, is

Formula: 4

Therefore the most general state expressed in this basis is a linear superposition of any of these state

Formula: 5

for which the associated density matrix in the representation Formula: 6 (lets not go into pure vs mixed states, but in this case it is a pure state) is

Formula: 7

Here again, note that the indices Formula: 8 and Formula: 9 only run over up and down spins while the indices n and m run only over the states of the environment, that is Formula: 10 to Formula: 11. These products of coefficient, which are really just complex numbers, are equivalent to the coefficients I used before, i.e. Formula: 12. I reckon I used a confusing notation by choosing the same greek letter Formula: 13 for both the density matrix and its matrix elements. Normally you put an hat Formula: 14 to emphasis that we are talking about an operator and no hat for matrix elements taking scalar values in Formula: 15.

Now, when we took the partial trace of such a density matrix over the environment, we summed over k an index that runs over the state of the environment only, just like n and m, and not over every states of the composite system spin + environment.

To make this point more explicit, first keep in mind that a state Formula: 16 really means the tensor product Formula: 17. Therefore the explicit expressions (all three are equivalent) for the density matrix should be written

Formula: 18

where I made explicit the fact that coefficients Formula: 19 are really just complex numbers and stands for the matrix elements of Formula: 14 in the basis Formula: 21.

Hence, when I take the partial trace over the environment Formula: 22, what I really mean is

Formula: 23

where I used the fact that both the ket Formula: 24 the bra Formula: 25 only "exist" in the Hilbert space B and its dual respectively. The last tensor product should really be seen as just a scalar multiplication since Formula: 26 is a simple scalar.

In matrix form, this reduced density matrix takes the form of a 2 by 2 matrix

Formula: 27

It is in that sense that the partial trace is an operation that takes an operator, in that case the statistical operator, aka the density matrix, acting in the big Hilbert space Formula: 28, and projects it to and operator acting in the space Formula: 29 only (here made manifest by the remaining Formula: 30), all the while preserving the precise statistics, i.e. expectation values, of the subsystem of the spin. It may be shown that it is the only such operation preserve the statistics of the given subsystem. In other words, the partial trace is explicitly defined as a projector in the space of operators
Formula: 31
where Formula: 32 is an arbitrary operator.

Edited by deimya (05/19/09 06:04 PM)

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Invisibledeimya
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Re: MyTheory of Reality: Psychedelics, Consciousness, and Quantum Physics [Re: tyler_0_durden]
    #10365628 - 05/19/09 05:59 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Sorry about the hijack...

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InvisibleChespirito
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Re: MyTheory of Reality: Psychedelics, Consciousness, and Quantum Physics [Re: deimya]
    #10365928 - 05/19/09 07:03 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Oh ha, yea sorry about that I see what you mean now.  I was missing this aspect of it:

means

This then makes perfect sense


Thanks man, I like that a lot.  So in essence we are just throwing away the non-diagonal elements similar to a trace except we are doing it for one space only.  Youve piqued my interest in quantum decoherence, Im going to explore it a bit more, probably bug you with more questions.

Sorry you had to write all that out though for just the fact that I forgot the notation for writing a direct product, I hope it didn't take you too long.

For some reason I hadn't considered the prospect of entanglement in that second post, you are correct that that relation is merely describing an uncorrelated system.  But yea I agree with your linear map at the end of your post, good stuff.

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Re: MyTheory of Reality: Psychedelics, Consciousness, and Quantum Physics [Re: Chespirito]
    #10368191 - 05/20/09 04:45 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

No problem, it was fun and a nice refresh for me also. On top of that I always wanted to seriously try the forums' latex mode :P

Although I am no expert at all on decoherence, I always found it to be quite a beast actually, I'll be glad to answer questions as best as I can. If I had more time I would gladly dig deeper into decoherence and read about pointer states, environment induced superselection (einselection) and the existential interpretation/quantum darwinism of Zurek et al. myself, but, alas, my thesis won't write itself. Good luck :hatsoff:

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Re: MyTheory of Reality: Psychedelics, Consciousness, and Quantum Physics [Re: deimya]
    #10369268 - 05/20/09 11:43 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

:eek:

I havent seen anything like that in griffiths :wink:

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