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InvisibleLucid_Euphoria
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Grain Soak Time, Endospores or hydration?
    #10339656 - 05/14/09 07:04 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I was wondering if the extensive soak times on grain is to allow for full hydration or is it to ensure the endospores have time to germinate?

I followed the soak technique used in the "Psilocybin Handbook" and after boiling for 10 mins, then soaking for 5 hours my grain is already fully hydrated.

So is it safe to go ahead and PC it or should I wait another 3 hours or so?


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"If ignorance is bliss, THEN KNOCK THE SMILE OFF MY FACE!" - Zach de la Rocha

"Today a young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves. Here's Tom with the weather!" -Bill Hicks-

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InvisibleDoc_T
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Re: Grain Soak Time, Endospores or hydration? [Re: Lucid_Euphoria]
    #10339754 - 05/14/09 07:18 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

If it's ready, it's ready.
Start straining, let it drain for a long long time. Maybe overnight, and PC it in the morning.


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You make it all possible. Doesn't it feel good?

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OfflinePsuper
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Re: Grain Soak Time, Endospores or hydration? [Re: Lucid_Euphoria]
    #10339780 - 05/14/09 07:22 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Lucid_Euphoria said:
I was wondering if the extensive soak times on grain is to allow for full hydration or is it to ensure the endospores have time to germinate?

quote]

It partially hydrates it.  and yes, the 24+ hour soak germinates endospores.

What grains are you using?  We can point you to a better tek probably.... ~Pixie~


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Clinical Management of High Dose Psilocybin Sessions:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbHOTIqjZLk

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InvisibleLucid_Euphoria
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Posts: 1,045
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Re: Grain Soak Time, Endospores or hydration? [Re: Psuper]
    #10339965 - 05/14/09 08:09 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I'm using winter (white) wheat berries. I usually use birdseed but wanted to try something new.

I don't really need a tek, was just curious how long it took to ensure all the endospores have germinated.


--------------------
PAN CYAN & AZURE FOR TRADE

"If ignorance is bliss, THEN KNOCK THE SMILE OFF MY FACE!" - Zach de la Rocha

"Today a young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves. Here's Tom with the weather!" -Bill Hicks-

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InvisibleDoc_T
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Re: Grain Soak Time, Endospores or hydration? [Re: Lucid_Euphoria]
    #10339991 - 05/14/09 08:12 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I guess '24 hours' is the standard answer, but you probably could just go ahead and sterilize with a 5-hour soak. Try it and see. It's better to have the right moisture content than to dink around with endospores, anyway.


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InvisibleLucid_Euphoria
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Re: Grain Soak Time, Endospores or hydration? [Re: Doc_T]
    #10340010 - 05/14/09 08:16 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Well the grain is definately fully hydrated. I can smash them between my fingers with very little pressure. I just want to be sure all the endospores have germinated so I don't get contams after sterilizing.


--------------------
PAN CYAN & AZURE FOR TRADE

"If ignorance is bliss, THEN KNOCK THE SMILE OFF MY FACE!" - Zach de la Rocha

"Today a young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves. Here's Tom with the weather!" -Bill Hicks-

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InvisibleDoc_T
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Re: Grain Soak Time, Endospores or hydration? [Re: Lucid_Euphoria]
    #10340155 - 05/14/09 08:41 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

It's fine. Strain time is more important than soak time, I promise.


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InvisibleLucid_Euphoria
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Re: Grain Soak Time, Endospores or hydration? [Re: Doc_T]
    #10340190 - 05/14/09 08:46 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I've never heard of straining overnight. Howcome you find this to be so crucial Doc? Not saying you're wrong just curious? I've only let strain for like 30 mins to an hour in all my previous grows and they've worked out alright. Not saying longer wouldn't be better but again, I'm just curious as to your reasoning.


--------------------
PAN CYAN & AZURE FOR TRADE

"If ignorance is bliss, THEN KNOCK THE SMILE OFF MY FACE!" - Zach de la Rocha

"Today a young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves. Here's Tom with the weather!" -Bill Hicks-

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Offlineveda_sticks
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Re: Grain Soak Time, Endospores or hydration? [Re: Lucid_Euphoria]
    #10340214 - 05/14/09 08:50 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Im only familar with rye.

Which is usually

rinse well till water is clear (removes dirt and straw etc)

Soak 24 hours - allows bacterial endospores to germinate, making them susceptable to sterilisation ( i have heard of people having succes withot the soak though)

Boil/simmer 10 minutes - Hydrates grain and dumping straight from boiling into a colindair allows the moisture to evaporate from the outside of the grain, leaving it dry and the moisture inside where you need it.


Getting your grains moisture content is very important, which means there not wet on the outside.


--------------------

PF TEK - writeup by EvilMushroom666
Lets Grow Mushrooms - RogerRabbit & RoadKills website with sample videos plus the full PF TEK video series. Alot of great information - BUY THE DVD
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Franks Simple Coir/Verm Tek
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Foo Mans No Soak WBS Prep Tek

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InvisibleDoc_T
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Re: Grain Soak Time, Endospores or hydration? [Re: Lucid_Euphoria]
    #10340229 - 05/14/09 08:52 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Just seems like if the water's right, the mycelium rips through it and there's no need to worry about bacterial contams. That's all. I've tried a bunch of different soak and simmer times, and never really seen a difference if it's done right. That's mostly for birdseed, rye is bigger and a bit tougher.


--------------------
You make it all possible. Doesn't it feel good?

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InvisibleLucid_Euphoria
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Posts: 1,045
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Re: Grain Soak Time, Endospores or hydration? [Re: veda_sticks]
    #10340241 - 05/14/09 08:55 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Interesting. This dry outer surface is new to me. It's been about a year or so since I've read up on the forums so I must have missed out on this.

Sounds like I did things in the reverse from what is advised then. I boiled/simmered first, then soaked.

I'll give them a good hour to drain and dry out a little before I PC. If it goes to shit, oh well, the grain only cost me bout 10 bucks. Live and learn right?


--------------------
PAN CYAN & AZURE FOR TRADE

"If ignorance is bliss, THEN KNOCK THE SMILE OFF MY FACE!" - Zach de la Rocha

"Today a young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves. Here's Tom with the weather!" -Bill Hicks-

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OfflineBrennus
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Re: Grain Soak Time, Endospores or hydration? [Re: Lucid_Euphoria]
    #10340380 - 05/14/09 09:25 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

From my understanding, the soak serves the purpose of softening the grains so they don't burst when boiled, which locks the moisture into the interior of the kernels, leaving the exterior dry so you can have optimal moisture content.

Some germination of endospores occurs, though.

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Grain Soak Time, Endospores or hydration? [Re: Doc_T]
    #10340506 - 05/14/09 09:46 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Doc_T said:
It's fine. Strain time is more important than soak time, I promise.




Actually, strain time is irrelevant.  Due to molecular adhesion, all the water that will drain off will do so within minutes.  After that, the grains just sit there spoiling.

It's better to soak for five to twenty-four hours, followed by a boil.  After draining the boiling water/grains for a minute or two, shake them in the colander for twenty minutes or so to 'steam off' the excess moisture.  This will leave you the perfect moisture content.

The endospore vs hydration story is that once hydrated, the endospores are much more susceptible to being killed off by pressure cooking, whether they've germinated or not.  Many bacterial endospores once germinated, form new endospores within hours, so long soak times are not necessarily better than shorter times, providing you soak long enough to soften the grains before boiling.  Doing so eliminates bursted kernels.  Don't forget to rinse the dirt and chaff out of the grains before beginning the soak. Adding a small handful of gypsum to a large pot of soaking grains helps prevent sticking and clumping later.

Here's a short text and video clip describing my grain tek.
RR


--------------------
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semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
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InvisibleAlabama Slim
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Re: Grain Soak Time, Endospores or hydration? *DELETED* [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #10340596 - 05/14/09 10:02 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Post deleted by Alabama Slim

Reason for deletion: .


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Grain Soak Time, Endospores or hydration? [Re: Alabama Slim]
    #10340616 - 05/14/09 10:07 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

but since a pressure cook at 90 min kills all forms of mold and bacterial




Says who?  My experience shows otherwise.
RR


--------------------
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semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison

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OfflineStealthgrower
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Re: Grain Soak Time, Endospores or hydration? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #10340652 - 05/14/09 10:14 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Now I'm curious RR, I always thought the 90 min PC killed everything too.  What is surviving?  Will any amount of PCing kill off everything?


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Infea said:
You ever seen that movie Constantine.  Well they pass into hell several times.  In hell there are melting human bodies, in your tub are melting mushroom bodies.  Your tub had passed into mushroom hell.

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Grain Soak Time, Endospores or hydration? [Re: Stealthgrower]
    #10340686 - 05/14/09 10:21 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

'Sterilizing' for 90 minutes gives a window of opportunity to get your grains colonized before surviving organisms can get a foothold.  It's not absolute sterilization, which would take up to 24 hours and ruin the grains.
RR


--------------------
Download Let's Grow Mushrooms



semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison

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InvisibleAlabama Slim
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Re: Grain Soak Time, Endospores or hydration? *DELETED* [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #10340744 - 05/14/09 10:33 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Post deleted by Alabama Slim

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Grain Soak Time, Endospores or hydration? [Re: Alabama Slim]
    #10340792 - 05/14/09 10:41 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

and bacterial came from the moisture content being too high




You've not heard me say that.  Many new growers think 'wet spot' which is the common slang term for bacteria comes from being 'wet'.  It doesn't. Wet grains will slow down the mycelium, and then surviving bacteria as a chance to take over.  The key is fast colonization. 

Molds are killed off easily.  Bacterial endospores can survive many hours in the PC.  Bacteria contamination is caused by surviving endospores, or poor sterile procedure during inoculation.

PC for 90 minutes and follow strict sterile procedure.  Probably the majority of bacterial 'wet spot' contamination comes from the breath of the cultivator, so flame your needles, etc., and use a glovebox.
RR


--------------------
Download Let's Grow Mushrooms



semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Grain Soak Time, Endospores or hydration? [Re: Alabama Slim]
    #10340799 - 05/14/09 10:42 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

and bacterial came from the moisture content being too high




You've not heard me say that.  N

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InvisibleAlabama Slim
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Re: Grain Soak Time, Endospores or hydration? *DELETED* [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #10340872 - 05/14/09 10:53 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Post deleted by Alabama Slim

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InvisibleLucid_Euphoria
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Re: Grain Soak Time, Endospores or hydration? [Re: Alabama Slim]
    #10340994 - 05/14/09 11:24 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Thanks for the clarification RR. Hopefully this batch will make it through. Although, one of my pressure cookers seems to be letting out too much pressure from the emergency valve. It may finally be time to pitch that peice of shit mirro and invest in an All American!


--------------------
PAN CYAN & AZURE FOR TRADE

"If ignorance is bliss, THEN KNOCK THE SMILE OFF MY FACE!" - Zach de la Rocha

"Today a young man on acid realized that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, that we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves. Here's Tom with the weather!" -Bill Hicks-

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