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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Ethical question:
    #10336968 - 05/14/09 09:53 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

If you had a friend that admitted to you they often ripped off their friends by stealing something from their house when they were over, would you have them over again?

Similarly, and more to the point, would you let a hacker have access to your computer if you knew they were a hacker?  Would you call someone a friend if they deliberately hacked your computer?  How close would you get to someone that bragged they were a hacker?

Is hacking ethical?


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #10337044 - 05/14/09 10:14 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

There's even a book on ethical hacking. That's when companies hire hackers to find their weak points in networks.
Of course I would kick his ass if he does it uninvited :grin:
But the responsibility to make their networks safe and get those who want to break in clearly lies in the hands of the companies...


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Invisiblezen buddy
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #10337139 - 05/14/09 10:41 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

If someone admitted to me that they like to steal from friends houses then I would not welcome them in my home.

Similarly, I would not allow a hacker to have access to my computer.

No, hacking is not ethical. If you want something from me all you have to do is ask. If you must access my computer without my knowledge then you must be fairly certain that I would not approve.

As soon as I am absolutely certain that I cannot trust someone I will not welcome them in my home. Would I give them a chance to prove that they have changed their ways? Very unlikely, as it is not worth the risk and if they truly have changed there will be someone else for them to nurture a trusting relationship. I will forgive them but I will not give them a chance to repeat their mistake with me.

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Offlinelaserpig
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: zen buddy]
    #10337173 - 05/14/09 10:50 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

hacking can take a lot of forms.
depending on what he's doing, he could be the last person you should give your computer to ... or the most trustworthy person you could find.

i've a friend who's a hacker, and he's written at least a couple decently nasty viruses, but he does it purely recreationally.
to my knowledge, he's never done anything malicious to anyone other than a fellow hacker. (him and some pals had machines for a while dedicated to basically warring with each other ... that was p. cool)

my point being, it depends entirely on the person.


--------------------
Weedmaster P knows the truth.

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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #10337360 - 05/14/09 11:36 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:

Of course I would kick his ass if he does it uninvited :grin:





Yeah, I'm not talking about exceptions like you and someone else mentioned. I'm talking about someone who would hack a friend's computer to spy on him or wreck his computer.

What do members here think of such a person?


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Offlinelaserpig
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #10337437 - 05/14/09 11:55 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

if you go out of your way to damage any aspect of other people's lives, you're a straight-up fucker.

not much more complicated than that.


--------------------
Weedmaster P knows the truth.

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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: laserpig]
    #10337458 - 05/14/09 12:00 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

laserpig said:
if you go out of your way to damage any aspect of other people's lives, you're a straight-up fucker.

not much more complicated than that.




Does anyone disagree?

And thanks.  You just earned a 5 shroom rating.


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: laserpig]
    #10337644 - 05/14/09 12:39 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

laserpig said:
if you go out of your way to damage any aspect of other people's lives, you're a straight-up fucker.

not much more complicated than that.




What if you're doing it unintentionally, or by not doing that thing you will suffer a much greater damage?
Or what if you're doing harm to someone in order to stop them from someone else?


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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OfflineC.M. Mann
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #10337716 - 05/14/09 01:01 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

There is nothing worse than a liar and a thief! Those that will steal, will steal from anyone given the chance. If you put up with a thief because you think you are not his target, you become part of the problem.

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: C.M. Mann]
    #10337735 - 05/14/09 01:06 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Those that will steal, will steal from anyone given the chance.




Did you verify this for every thief living on this planet?

Quote:

If you put up with a thief because you think you are not his target, you become part of the problem.




What problem?


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: laserpig]
    #10337824 - 05/14/09 01:24 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

that depends on what 'your way' means...hmmm... :grin:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10337834 - 05/14/09 01:25 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Those that protest the loudest about the behavior of others are always suspect to me. :satansmoking:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleSwyfty Swyf
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: Icelander]
    #10337996 - 05/14/09 01:54 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

It's true.

Mushroom Trip stole my heart. :sad:


--------------------
If you build it they will shrug.
:shrug:

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #10338444 - 05/14/09 03:20 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Mr. Mushrooms said:
If you had a friend that admitted to you they often ripped off their friends by stealing something from their house when they were over, would you have them over again?




Well, at least they're being honest to you.  I'd question why this person is still calling these people his friends if he's constantly ripping them off, though.  I might still have him or her over if his other qualities redeem his kleptomania, but I'd probably never let him get out of my sight.

Quote:

Mr. Mushrooms said:
Similarly, and more to the point, would you let a hacker have access to your computer if you knew they were a hacker?




Sure, provided I was there and knew what he or she was doing on my computer.  Hackers provide some of the best tech support.

Quote:

Mr. Mushrooms said:
Would you call someone a friend if they deliberately hacked your computer?




If I didn't know about it, certainly not.

Quote:

Mr. Mushrooms said:
How close would you get to someone that bragged they were a hacker?




Provided they're not hacking me, I wouldn't care either way.  My friendship is not contingent upon what my friends choose to do in their spare time.

Quote:

Mr. Mushrooms said:
Is hacking ethical?




Depends upon what type of hacking you're talking about.  I believe copying music, movies, and games is ethical, but I don't believe breaking into secure systems is very ethical.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: deCypher]
    #10340228 - 05/14/09 08:52 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Not many, if any, of the exceptions apply.  Bottom line: this person is an asshole.  Damaging others' property for kicks indicates some severe emotional problems.

I just wondered what the consensus would be here.

Thanks for the replies.

:hatsoff:


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OfflineC.M. Mann
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10340255 - 05/14/09 08:57 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

It doesn't even make sense arguing these two points!

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: C.M. Mann]
    #10341704 - 05/15/09 02:11 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

How is asking a couple of questions "arguing" about them? :strokebeard:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

Edited by MushroomTrip (05/15/09 03:34 AM)

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #10341865 - 05/15/09 03:41 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Mr. Mushrooms said:
Quote:

laserpig said:
if you go out of your way to damage any aspect of other people's lives, you're a straight-up fucker.

not much more complicated than that.




Does anyone disagree?

And thanks.  You just earned a 5 shroom rating.




Malicious personalisms such as Seeing as how you have written four major lies in this board about me with the sole intent of besmirching my character along with revealing things shared in private, that would make you unethical and a straight-up ****er, would it not? are not allowed in P&S.


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Edited by deCypher (05/16/09 04:33 PM)

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #10341872 - 05/15/09 03:45 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Damaging others' property for kicks indicates some severe emotional problems.





And attempting to damage another's reputation with falsehoods would seem to indicate a similar disorder.


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10342683 - 05/15/09 09:25 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

Mr. Mushrooms said:
Quote:

laserpig said:
if you go out of your way to damage any aspect of other people's lives, you're a straight-up fucker.

not much more complicated than that.




Does anyone disagree?

And thanks.  You just earned a 5 shroom rating.




Seeing as how you have written four major lies in this board about me with the sole intent of besmirching my character along with revealing things shared in private, that would make you unethical and a straight-up ****er, would it not?




You have no evidence for this and your mischaracterization (you excel at it) is flawed as usual.  Are you holding grudges over misperceived slights?  That sounds very unhealthy.  Is sticking to the topic too difficult for you?


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #10343254 - 05/15/09 11:51 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

You have no evidence for this and your mischaracterization (you excel at it) is flawed as usual.  Are you holding grudges over misperceived slights?  That sounds very unhealthy.  Is sticking to the topic too difficult for you?




The topic is ethics and the the sub-topic was one who does or says mean things solely to hurt another. Of course I have the evidence, but you ran to the Mods to suppress the last few times I posted EXACT QUOTES. Why was that? Fear of being exposed?

Why are your lies ethical and another's are unethical? That is not at all consistent.


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Offlinezouden
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: Icelander]
    #10345763 - 05/15/09 07:53 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Those that protest the loudest about the behavior of others are always suspect to me. :satansmoking:




--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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OfflineC.M. Mann
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10346302 - 05/15/09 09:49 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Thieves and those that help them, are a big problem in this world!  This statement needs no explanation, you either believe it or not!  One side you can trust, and the other side you can't!

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: C.M. Mann]
    #10347409 - 05/16/09 03:51 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

But there's liars everywhere, they don't need to be thieves.
Also, being a thief doesn't mean in any way that you have to betray the confidence of everyone, or willingly do bad stuff to them.
I've had a friend that was a thief and he was one of my vest friends. :shrug:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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InvisibleZanthius
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10347427 - 05/16/09 04:13 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
I've had a friend that was a thief and he was one of my vest friends. :shrug:




A lot of thieves probably don't steal from their friends, but I wouldn't want to have a thief as a friend anyhow. He/she would be morally too immature for having a friendship with me.

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: Zanthius]
    #10347431 - 05/16/09 04:19 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Unless you know the specific people and know every detail about them, its completely baseless to say that they're "too immature" from an emotional standpoint. Of course, even after knowing who they are, you can be the one who's emotionally immature when you'll decide not to have a friendships with someone who's different that you, casting a negative judgment upon them and thinking you're superior to them.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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InvisibleZanthius
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10347434 - 05/16/09 04:24 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Unless you know the specific people and know every detail about them, its completely baseless to say that they're "too immature" from an emotional standpoint. Of course, even after knowing who they are, you can be the one who's emotionally immature when you'll decide not to have a friendships with someone who's different that you, casting a negative judgment upon them and thinking you're superior to them.




I don't think I am superior to emotionally immature people. I think my spirit is vibrating inharmoniously together with the spirits of such people. That doesn't mean that I am better than them, or that they are better than me. It just means that I will have inharmonious relationships with such people.

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: Zanthius]
    #10347490 - 05/16/09 05:00 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

You're making the assumption that all thieves and emotionally immature people, as opposed to you who are mature (at least in your view). How is this not a judgment in which you consider yourself superior to them? Also, how did you determine that all thieves possess emotional immaturity? What did you take to account when you made this decision?

I'd prefer for this discussion to stay in touch with reality, and I'm afraid it's impossible to do that when you bring arguments such as your spirit would be in an inharmonious relation with the spirit of a thief. :lol:
Can you perhaps translate this abstract statement into something with substance?


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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InvisibleZanthius
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10347672 - 05/16/09 07:11 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
You're making the assumption that all thieves and emotionally immature people, as opposed to you who are mature (at least in your view). How is this not a judgment in which you consider yourself superior to them? Also, how did you determine that all thieves possess emotional immaturity? What did you take to account when you made this decision?





Who I consider to be emotionally immature is related to my subjective perspective, and doesn't necessarily apply to any objective perspective. I also don't necessarily think that it is superior to be emotionally mature.

I don't need any objective evidence for that thieves are emotionally immature in order to decide who I want to have a friendship with. My subjective perspective is good enough for making such decisions.

Edited by Zanthius (05/16/09 07:21 AM)

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: Zanthius]
    #10347812 - 05/16/09 08:52 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Of course you don't need any evidence to believe whatever you want, and make the decisions you want.
However, this is a debate forum, and when a statement is being made, the other posters are free to ask all kinds of question as to how and why that certain statement has been done, and while (like I have already said) I completely agree with you claiming that one doesn't need anything more than subjective, internal reasons for deciding who their friends are, I also realize that this statement doesn't explain HOW and for which reasons the decision has been made, and because of this the debate has turned fruitless. :shrug:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #10348463 - 05/16/09 12:53 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

You have no evidence for this and your mischaracterization (you excel at it) is flawed as usual.




If I posited such evidence (yet again) would you admit that you are an emotionally disturbed and mean-spirited person and make an actual public apology or would you rationalize your attempts to besmirch another's character with more lame excuses?

You revealed things publicly that I told you in private? True or false.

You complained to the admins years ago that I had threatend you with death? True or false.

You wrote that I have been banned from several other websites? True or false.

You wrote that I attempted to send Shroomism to a mental institution? True or false.


Time to take a long hard look in the mirror. Your self-image does not match reality in the slightest.

Irrelevant and malicious personalisms are not allowed in P&S.  Subsequent transgressions and repeat offenses will start yielding bans.

Edited by deCypher (05/16/09 04:37 PM)

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10349383 - 05/16/09 04:51 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

You have no evidence for this and your mischaracterization (you excel at it) is flawed as usual.




If I posited such evidence (yet again) would you admit that you are an emotionally disturbed and mean-spirited person and make an actual public apology or would you rationalize your attempts to besmirch another's character with more lame excuses?

You revealed things publicly that I told you in private? True or false.

You complained to the admins years ago that I had threatend you with death? True or false.

You wrote that I have been banned from several other websites? True or false.

You wrote that I attempted to send Shroomism to a mental institution? True or false.


Time to take a long hard look in the mirror. Your self-image does not match reality in the slightest.




I don't think it is altogether effective or beneficial to anyone to carry out these types of matters in the public forum. Putting pressure on someone on issues that delve so deeply upon someone's personal identity in a discussion forum where people come to enjoy the discussion of ideas seems to only create larger problems.

I don't think too many couples really enjoy having relationship arguments out on a busy street, unless they are simply too consumed by the matter to find the surroundings important, but even then, it isn't like they are really wanting that to happen, so why don't you two lovebirds keep it private?

I personally think it would be more enjoyable for everyone if you focused more on flirting each other's wits at each other instead of trying to achieve social positioning over each other. I mean, if you want to display that, you could release your own amateur porn in Shroomerites Anonymous, because there are quite a few testicle-selling freaks in there that would probably enjoy watching two old hippies have butt-sex together while on mushrooms they gathered together earlier.
:hippie: :inlove: :hippie:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: fireworks_god]
    #10349496 - 05/16/09 05:25 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

A person made a claim and yet I am not allowed to challenge it without being banned.

We are apparently only allowed to talk of the poor ethics of those evil others not on the board, but not of those here despite evidence to the contrary. Why is that?

MM agreed with another poster that those who lie about others are despicable.

My response certainly is relevant to this comment as there has been damage done out of spite.


--------------------

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OfflineSventington
am what I am what I am what I am

Registered: 01/17/09
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: fireworks_god]
    #10350145 - 05/16/09 08:19 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

You have no evidence for this and your mischaracterization (you excel at it) is flawed as usual.




If I posited such evidence (yet again) would you admit that you are an emotionally disturbed and mean-spirited person and make an actual public apology or would you rationalize your attempts to besmirch another's character with more lame excuses?

You revealed things publicly that I told you in private? True or false.

You complained to the admins years ago that I had threatend you with death? True or false.

You wrote that I have been banned from several other websites? True or false.

You wrote that I attempted to send Shroomism to a mental institution? True or false.


Time to take a long hard look in the mirror. Your self-image does not match reality in the slightest.




I don't think it is altogether effective or beneficial to anyone to carry out these types of matters in the public forum. Putting pressure on someone on issues that delve so deeply upon someone's personal identity in a discussion forum where people come to enjoy the discussion of ideas seems to only create larger problems.

I don't think too many couples really enjoy having relationship arguments out on a busy street, unless they are simply too consumed by the matter to find the surroundings important, but even then, it isn't like they are really wanting that to happen, so why don't you two lovebirds keep it private?

I personally think it would be more enjoyable for everyone if you focused more on flirting each other's wits at each other instead of trying to achieve social positioning over each other. I mean, if you want to display that, you could release your own amateur porn in Shroomerites Anonymous, because there are quite a few testicle-selling freaks in there that would probably enjoy watching two old hippies have butt-sex together while on mushrooms they gathered together earlier.
:hippie: :inlove: :hippie:





I can never unread that. My eyes, dear God! My eyes!

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OfflineC.M. Mann
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10350203 - 05/16/09 08:37 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

This is exactly the behaviour that is ruining society!  People who don't care if someone inflicts misery, as long as they don't do it to them! Rules and Laws should be applied equally, without justifications or prejudice! If someone is a liar and a thief, I don't care who he is he is incapable of trust! :peace:

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: C.M. Mann]
    #10351898 - 05/17/09 05:18 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

That is if you think that laws should exist, which of them, in what form, and how they should or should not be enforced.
Personally, I don't think that stealing is necessarily a bad thing, and while I prefer not to do it, I can think about more than a handful of situations in which I would do it without a doubt, and not feel bad for it in any way.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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InvisibleZanthius
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10356650 - 05/18/09 01:42 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Personally, I don't think that stealing is necessarily a bad thing, and while I prefer not to do it, I can think about more than a handful of situations in which I would do it without a doubt, and not feel bad for it in any way.




I also could..... When I was in kindergarten. Even if I was in a situation where I had to steal in order to survive, or in order to save somebody else, I would blame myself for getting into such unfortunate situations.

Edited by Zanthius (05/18/09 01:58 AM)

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OfflineC.M. Mann
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10358320 - 05/18/09 12:26 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Lazy humans with weak characters steal, because they refuse to take care of themselves!

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: C.M. Mann]
    #10358359 - 05/18/09 12:35 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Wow, you just keep making one over-generalization after another, don't you? :lol:

How can you judge this as being true for all the possible situations in which one could steal? Don't you think it is more indicated to actually KNOW a specific case in which one stole, and their make an aware and educated guess about their character? Until you explain, for every possible case, exactly how your statements are valid and perfectly apply, you can't expect to be taken seriously. Furthermore, I am interested in finding out how you ended up thinking something like this, as I have reached different conclusions than yours. :tongue:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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OfflineC.M. Mann
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10359077 - 05/18/09 03:02 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

I reached my conclusion by not justifying bad behaviour! Under no circumstance would theft be a good thing! I think that is specific! You may not take me serious, but you are just one person!

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: C.M. Mann]
    #10359401 - 05/18/09 04:05 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

So many exclamation points and no consistent meaning. :smirk:

Of course I'm just one person, but your claims are still uncovered and only backed up by irrational answers that have no place in a debate.
You saying that it is bad to steal, no matter the circumstances, is no different than someone saying that drugs are bad, no matter what. Hopefully people will grow up and start avoiding situations that require a higher degree of attention and more thinking, and maybe they will stop having an opinion about something they don't know almost anything. This would benefit us greatly, because we will discover a whole new world out there and a reality that's far more complex and detailed than some are trying to make of it, just to save themselves from too much thinking or from having to face their own doubts and fears.

Tell me, if there's a war and as a result of this war you and your family will be completely broke and with no food or shelter or anyone to get help from, would you steal or not? Why?


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: C.M. Mann]
    #10359909 - 05/18/09 05:23 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

C.M. Mann said: Under no circumstance would theft be a good thing!




So if I'm starving on the streets, about to die of hunger, and my only chance of getting food is to take a loaf of bread from a store, I should do the moral thing and die rather than take it?


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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OfflineC.M. Mann
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10360009 - 05/18/09 05:43 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

So, it is your opinion that I am irrational, immature,and ignorant. Did I leave anything out?  Under no circumstance is theft justified. We are humans ,capable of taking care of ourselves without victimizing our neighbors! I have seen no "proof" in your argument, Just you calling me names. I guess you think by berating me, it makes your argument more rational.

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Re: Ethical question: [Re: deCypher]
    #10360209 - 05/18/09 06:06 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

"What if's" Is it right for me to bring misery on another human, just because I'm miserable?  "What if" someone puts a bullet in your head just because they are hungry? "What if" that was all the food you had for your family? Would you justify this behaviour?  We are not animals reacting without thought, and every human deserves equal treatment. This I'm hungry in a holocaust argument is weak and statistically rare.  If you are starving in the street, there are many things you can do to earn your food. You won't starve overnight.

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Re: Ethical question: [Re: C.M. Mann]
    #10360238 - 05/18/09 06:09 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Unlikely as these kinds of scenarios may be, my point is that there are certain circumstances (albeit rare) where theft is justified.


--------------------
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: C.M. Mann]
    #10360642 - 05/18/09 07:11 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

If you are starving in the street, there are many things you can do to earn your food. You won't starve overnight.




Dumpster diving FTW. :yesnod: Whee!


--------------------

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OfflineC.M. Mann
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: deCypher]
    #10360864 - 05/18/09 07:55 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

I understand your point. Under those conditions one must make a point to themselves to repay the "loan", as soon as you are able. Do unto others...  I don't base my beliefs on any Religious dogma, that is just the way I live my life.  If you bridle an idea with a "lowest denominator" , your clarity becomes clouded.  I am not preaching that everyone must conform, but I would not let a thief in my house. What if you had children? You would be putting them at risk.  What if he didn't steal from you, but stole from your friends while in your house. What if he had stolen from a drug dealer, and they finally found him at your place?  Everyone is free to have their own opinions, but you must also be ready to accept the consequences of your actions.

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Offlinezouden
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: C.M. Mann]
    #10362350 - 05/19/09 01:22 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

"What if's" Is it right for me to bring misery on another human, just because I'm miserable?




Depends on the nature of the crime and the impact on the victim. Stealing a loaf of bread from a hungry orphan is very different to stealing one from the delivery truck of a major supermarket chain. Hell, there are many scenarios where you could steal something and it wouldn't have any impact on anyone. That doesn't necessarily make it right, but it's less wrong.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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InvisibleZanthius
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: deCypher]
    #10362446 - 05/19/09 02:09 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
So if I'm starving on the streets, about to die of hunger, and my only chance of getting food is to take a loaf of bread from a store, I should do the moral thing and die rather than take it?




If I had to steal food in order to survive, I would blame myself for getting into that situation.

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
You saying that it is bad to steal, no matter the circumstances, is no different than someone saying that drugs are bad, no matter what.




It is very different, because when you are abusing drugs you are mainly causing harm to yourself, while when you are stealing you are causing harm to other people.

Quote:

zouden said:
Hell, there are many scenarios where you could steal something and it wouldn't have any impact on anyone.




If you are just thinking about a single incident you might be right, but if everybody starts to steal from places where they think it won't have any impact, it will definitely start to have an impact.

Edited by Zanthius (05/19/09 02:19 AM)

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: C.M. Mann]
    #10362466 - 05/19/09 02:19 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

C.M. Mann said:
So, it is your opinion that I am irrational, immature,and ignorant. Did I leave anything out?  Under no circumstance is theft justified. We are humans ,capable of taking care of ourselves without victimizing our neighbors! I have seen no "proof" in your argument, Just you calling me names. I guess you think by berating me, it makes your argument more rational.




Can you show me where I've called you names, because from what I remember I only said that the points you were trying to make were weak and irrational and that they don't have anything to do with a debate.
Besides, why should you see any "proof" in my argument? You're the one that vehemently said that stealing was bad under any circumstance, and I'm still waiting for a coherent, rational explanation. I guess I just won't get that. :shrug:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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InvisibleZanthius
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10362476 - 05/19/09 02:22 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Can you show me where I've called you names, because from what I remember I only said that the points you were trying to make were weak and irrational and that they don't have anything to do with a debate.




I don't think the way you are arguing here has anything to do in a debate, and it is almost personalism, because you are actually saying that he is "weak and irrational", when you are saying that his points are "weak and irrational".

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: Zanthius]
    #10362481 - 05/19/09 02:23 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Zanthius said:
It is very different, because when you are abusing drugs you are mainly causing harm to yourself, while when you are stealing you are causing harm to other people.





It is the same thing.
Perhaps you misunderstood my words. I didn't say that taking drugs is the same with stealing, I said that saying "drugs are bad", without any further elaboration is the same with saying "stealing is bad" without any explanation.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: Zanthius]
    #10362485 - 05/19/09 02:25 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Zanthius said:
because you are actually saying that he is "weak and irrational", when you are saying that his points are "weak and irrational".




Oh really? Then maybe you can explain how you've reached this conclusion, other than you own projection.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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InvisibleZanthius
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10362511 - 05/19/09 02:33 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Oh really? Then maybe you can explain how you've reached this conclusion, other than you own projection.




People are their opinions and their beliefs. Your ego is the dynamic conceptualization of reality that is generating the thoughts in your mind from thoughts already stored in your mind. If you are saying that my "opinions" are "weak and irrational", you are actually saying that I am "weak and irrational", because your attack is directed towards my ego.

I don't differentiate between somebody saying that "I am weak and irrational", and somebody saying that "my opinions are weak and irrational". Both attacks are directed toward my ego.

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: Zanthius]
    #10362526 - 05/19/09 02:39 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Well, this doesn't mean that this is how things actually are.
I don't know the poster, so I can't have an opinion about who he is, but I can have an opinion about the ideas he is presenting in a thread. In fact, these are the mechanics of this forum - to discuss and, when needed, attack ideas. Of course, I am well aware of the fact that one's person hood consists of so much more than an idea or two posted on a forum, and I could never make the mistake to actually think that, only because someone has said something stupid, they are stupid.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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InvisibleMufungo
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: Zanthius]
    #10362540 - 05/19/09 02:44 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

So what am I saying about You if I say that only some of your opinions are weak and irrational while your other opinions are strong and rational?


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InvisibleZanthius
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10362544 - 05/19/09 02:45 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
In fact, these are the mechanics of this forum - to discuss and, when needed, attack ideas.




Here you are seriously mistaken. Attacking ideas is the same as attacking people. A fruitful debate is not about attacking the ideas of your opponent, but rather about trying to get your intellectual opponent to see reality from your perspective, without any hostility involved in the process.

When I am "debating" with my professors, they are not attacking me, they are "teaching me". And that is what a fruitful debate should be about. It should be about teaching each other, not about attacking each other.

Quote:

Mufungo said:
So what am I saying about You if I say that only some of your opinions are weak and irrational while your other opinions are strong and rational?




You could also say that only some of my personality is "weak and irrational". It would be the same thing.

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InvisibleMufungo
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: Zanthius]
    #10362560 - 05/19/09 02:54 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

So you're a glass half empty kind of guy then?


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Offlinezouden
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: Zanthius]
    #10362574 - 05/19/09 03:00 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Zanthius said:

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
You saying that it is bad to steal, no matter the circumstances, is no different than someone saying that drugs are bad, no matter what.




It is very different, because when you are abusing drugs you are mainly causing harm to yourself, while when you are stealing you are causing harm to other people.



Indeed. In other words, the magnitude of the crime is based on the impact on the victim.

Quote:

Quote:

zouden said:
Hell, there are many scenarios where you could steal something and it wouldn't have any impact on anyone.




If you are just thinking about a single incident you might be right, but if everybody starts to steal from places where they think it won't have any impact, it will definitely start to have an impact.





Of course, but that doesn't change the fact that some crimes are worse than others. If all things are taken into consideration then it is possible to justify some criminal actions (which is not the same thing as justifying the crime, however).


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: Zanthius]
    #10362616 - 05/19/09 03:20 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Zanthius said:
I don't differentiate between somebody saying that "I am weak and irrational", and somebody saying that "my opinions are weak and irrational".




That's your cognitive failure, then. There's obviously a difference, at least in Logic Land.

Quote:

Zanthius said:
A fruitful debate is not about attacking the ideas of your opponent, but rather about trying to get your intellectual opponent to see reality from your perspective, without any hostility involved in the process.




Different people have different motivations and interests in debating, and perhaps it fulfills a useful end sometimes for ideas to be attacked without interest in "educating" the person that happened to be the one who said them.

Your idea of what constitutes "fruitful" is not the end all-be all of debate for everyone. The fact that you don't see the benefits that can and do result from criticizing or "attacking" ideas (ignoring the wrong assertion that somehow criticizing an idea is criticizing the person themselves), doesn't exclude those benefits or those who enjoy them. Not everyone is out for the same thing as you are at all times nor is that thing you speak of somehow the golden way every debate "should" be.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: Zanthius]
    #10362778 - 05/19/09 04:59 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Here you are seriously mistaken. Attacking ideas is the same as attacking people.




No, it isn't. It's also the reason why the rules of this forum clearly specify a distinction between attacking ideas and attacking posters.
If you (and other people) choose to get offended when their ideas are getting attacked, then it is only your issue to deal with.

Quote:

A fruitful debate is not about attacking the ideas of your opponent, but rather about trying to get your intellectual opponent to see reality from your perspective, without any hostility involved in the process.




I don't think I simply said that idea was irrational, without also explaining why I think this way. Also, I don't have any "hostility" when I mention something like this, so it must be only your skewed perception.
What's really funny is that you're holding double standards, and arbitrary choosing what's hostile and what isn't. Earlier when we were discussing about thieves, and the fact that you considered THEY (not their ideas) were immature, you have also stated that you didn't see it as being bad or an insult. How can simply calling someone's idea irrational is an insult to them, and how did you determine my feelings on the personal nature of the poster?
If you don't have anything consistent to show that I was insulting the posters themselves, please stop making baseless accusations that have absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Quote:

When I am "debating" with my professors, they are not attacking me, they are "teaching me". And that is what a fruitful debate should be about. It should be about teaching each other, not about attacking each other.




No, it shouldn't be about teaching. This isn't the teaching forum and the term debating isn't synonym with the term teaching.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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InvisibleZanthius
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10363257 - 05/19/09 08:05 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
No, it isn't. It's also the reason why the rules of this forum clearly specify a distinction between attacking ideas and attacking posters.
If you (and other people) choose to get offended when their ideas are getting attacked, then it is only your issue to deal with.




I don't get offended even if you attack my personality. I just think it is silly to differentiate between ideas as personalities, as everybody with a little self-insight should realize that their personalities are made of their ideas.

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: Zanthius]
    #10363373 - 05/19/09 08:42 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

So, you're preaching against stating one's opinion about how stupid an idea can be, but at the same time you say it is silly to engage in the idea I presented. Are you attacking me? :nono:

And no, people shouldn't do anything just because your sense of what's right and wrong says so. :sorry:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: Zanthius]
    #10363502 - 05/19/09 09:21 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Zanthius said:
Here you are seriously mistaken. Attacking ideas is the same as attacking people. A fruitful debate is not about attacking the ideas of your opponent, but rather about trying to get your intellectual opponent to see reality from your perspective, without any hostility involved in the process.




I will agree with you on your definition of a fruitful debate, but nonetheless allowing attacks on persons (even if this might overlap with attacks on the ideas of persons if they happen to have ego-identification with their beliefs) would rapidly degrade all discussions into the following:

Person X: A is true!
Person Y: You're fucking retarded.

versus

Person X: A is true!
Person Y: A is fucking retarded.

IMO the latter is far more conducive towards civil discussion.

Quote:

Zanthius said: everybody with a little self-insight should realize that their personalities are made of their ideas.




Hardly.  My personality will stay the same no matter what beliefs are contained within my world schema.


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InvisibleZanthius
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: deCypher]
    #10363775 - 05/19/09 10:47 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Hardly.  My personality will stay the same no matter what beliefs are contained within my world schema.




Your personality / world schema / ego is an artificial construct made of your ideas. Without cultural conditioning you wouldn't have any personality / world schema / ego, at least not in the way you understand it. A dog might have some kind of an ego, but it will not take emotional damage from an intellectual attack on its personality, because it doesn't have any personality in the way you have. If you are calling me "an idiot" and I get emotionally hurt, it is only because I am identifying with my intellectual self-image, which is an artificial construct made from the ideas given to me by my cultural conditioning.

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: Zanthius]
    #10363836 - 05/19/09 11:10 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Your personality / world schema / ego is an artificial construct made of your ideas. Without cultural conditioning you wouldn't have any personality / world schema / ego, at least not in the way you understand it.




Without cultural conditioning you'd still have an ego, only that it won't be influenced by cultural aspects. Of course, this would make it different but not non-existent, and it doesn't say anything about it's level/ depth/ intensity.
How is this relevant to the discussion, unless you're implying that, without the cultural context, people wouldn't get butt-hurt when their ideas would be questioned or attacked?

Quote:

If you are calling me "an idiot" and I get emotionally hurt, it is only because I am identifying with my intellectual self-image, which is an artificial construct made from the ideas given to me by my cultural conditioning.




:blah: 

Bull shit! You get emotionally hurt because you can't control your emotions. The same thing goes for getting emotionally hurt when someone insults your ideas.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
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InvisibleZanthius
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10363857 - 05/19/09 11:16 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Bull shit! You get emotionally hurt because you can't control your emotions. The same thing goes for getting emotionally hurt when someone insults your ideas.




Maybe you won't get emotionally hurt if you are able to control your emotions ( which almost nobody are, and those who believe that they are, are usually just delusional ), but you wouldn't be able to get emotionally hurt from psychological attacks at all without cultural conditioning. There would be nothing inside of you to attack without cultural conditioning.

Edited by Zanthius (05/19/09 11:24 AM)

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #10363859 - 05/19/09 11:17 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

People who can't take care of their possesions already own too much. They are those immoral people who don't share by themselves...

(for the sake of the discussion)


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: Ethical question: [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #10363919 - 05/19/09 11:37 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

There would be nothing inside of you to attack without cultural conditioning.




Source or BS.


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #10363929 - 05/19/09 11:39 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
People who can't take care of their possesions already own too much. They are those immoral people who don't share by themselves...

(for the sake of the discussion)





What are you talking about? :lol:
Why should they share? :what:


--------------------
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All this time I've loved you
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InvisibleZanthius
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10363944 - 05/19/09 11:42 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Source or BS.




The source is inside of yourself, but due to lack of self-insight, you might be incapable of seeing that your self-image / personality is an artificial construct created by the ideas given to you by your cultural conditioning.

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Re: Ethical question: [Re: Zanthius]
    #10363955 - 05/19/09 11:45 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

So yeah, bull-shit. :lol:


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Re: Ethical question: [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10363960 - 05/19/09 11:46 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
So yeah, bull-shit. :lol:




Personalisms that talk about other posters in a derogatory fashion such as I love it when little girls like you worship their ignorance. It makes you look so cute. are not allowed in PS&P.

Edited by deCypher (05/19/09 12:01 PM)

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: Zanthius]
    #10363988 - 05/19/09 11:58 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Zanthius said: A dog might have some kind of an ego, but it will not take emotional damage from an intellectual attack on its personality, because it doesn't have any personality in the way you have.




Again, an attack on my ideas is not an attack upon my personality.  My beliefs may have shaped the person I am today, but I can certainly change my beliefs and schemas about the world around me without changing my already-developed temperament and essence that makes me 'me'.  I don't take any emotional damage from you criticizing my beliefs; why should I?  If you do then you have clearly identified your ego too strongly with your beliefs, which is not the mark of a good philosopher.


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Re: Ethical question: [Re: deCypher]
    #10364027 - 05/19/09 12:07 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Again, an attack on my ideas is not an attack upon my personality.  My beliefs may have shaped the person I am today, but I can certainly change my beliefs and schemas about the world around me without changing my already-developed temperament and essence that makes me 'me'.  I don't take any emotional damage from you criticizing my beliefs; why should I?  If you do then you have clearly identified your ego too strongly with your beliefs, which is not the mark of a good philosopher.




I don't necessarily take any emotional damage from you criticizing my personality; why should I? Don't you believe that it is possible for me to change my personality, just like you believe that it is possible for you to change your beliefs?

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: Zanthius]
    #10364040 - 05/19/09 12:09 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Zanthius said: Don't you believe that it is possible for me to change my personality, just like you believe that it is possible for you to change your beliefs?




No, because personality has a significant genetic factor that cannot be changed by thought alone unlike beliefs.


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InvisibleZanthius
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: deCypher]
    #10364054 - 05/19/09 12:13 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
No, because personality has a significant genetic factor that cannot be changed by thought alone unlike beliefs.




The part of my personality that can be damaged by psychological attacks, is the part of my personality that I can change, because that part of my personality is an artificial construct created by the ideas given to me by my cultural conditioning. My self-image is given to me by my cultural conditioning, it is not given to me by my genes. That part of me which is given to me by my genes can take damage from physical attacks, not from psychological attacks.

Edited by Zanthius (05/19/09 12:44 PM)

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Re: Ethical question: [Re: Zanthius]
    #10364154 - 05/19/09 12:44 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Let me put it this way: if they discover a new planet in between Earth and Mars and I come to believe that this planet exists, would my personality change?  Of course not, and same thing with any other idea that I possess.

Besides, it's completely up to you whether you choose to be hurt or damaged when someone else challenges your beliefs.


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InvisibleZanthius
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: deCypher]
    #10364175 - 05/19/09 12:51 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:Let me put it this way: if they discover a new planet in between Earth and Mars and I come to believe that this planet exists, would my personality change?  Of course not, and same thing with any other idea that I possess.




What about your ideas about aggression, theft, honesty, hate, love, morality and so on? Of course your personality can change if you change your ideas about such topics.

Quote:

deCypher said:
Besides, it's completely up to you whether you choose to be hurt or damaged when someone else challenges your beliefs.




It is up to me to decide whether I want to be hurt by ANY psychological attack, regardless of if the psychological attack is directed towards my ideas or if it is directed towards my self-image. My self-image is an artificial construct just like my ideas. My self-image is NOT given to me by my genes.

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Re: Ethical question: [Re: Zanthius]
    #10364197 - 05/19/09 12:55 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Zanthius said:
What about your ideas about aggression, theft, honesty, hate, love, morality and so on? Of course your personality can change if you change your ideas about such topics




If I'm shy by nature, my beliefs and ideas about all of the above will not change my introversion/extroversion.  If I'm naturally curious, my beliefs and ideas will similarly not change this.  My genetically inherent dispositions and traits that define my personality are not belief-dependent.

Quote:

Zanthius said: My self-image is an artificial construct just like my ideas. My self-image is NOT given to me by my genes.




Without your inherent genetic tendencies, you wouldn't even have a self-image.  Granted nurture is also a significant factor, but you can't ignore those hardwired predispositions given by nature.  Besides, self-image is not personality (which was the original topic of discussion).


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InvisibleZanthius
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: deCypher]
    #10364220 - 05/19/09 01:00 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
If I'm shy by nature, my beliefs and ideas about all of the above will not change my introversion/extroversion.  If I'm naturally curious, my beliefs and ideas will similarly not change this.




Those aspects of your personality most certainly can be altered over time, and I know this from personal experience. There is a lot of plasticity in the brain.

Quote:

deCypher said:
Besides, self-image is not personality (which was the original topic of discussion).




Well, it is only your self-image that can take damage from psychological attacks, and your self-image most certainly can change, just like your beliefs.

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: Zanthius]
    #10364225 - 05/19/09 01:02 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Zanthius said:
Quote:

deCypher said:
If I'm shy by nature, my beliefs and ideas about all of the above will not change my introversion/extroversion.  If I'm naturally curious, my beliefs and ideas will similarly not change this.




Those aspects of your personality most certainly can be altered over time, and I know this from personal experience. There is a lot of plasticity in the brain.




Certainly your behavior can be altered; drugs, cognitive-behavioral therapy, and a host of other psychological techniques can help you move against your genetic predispositions.  This does not imply that your personality will be changed by simply holding a different belief, however.


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InvisibleZanthius
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: deCypher]
    #10364253 - 05/19/09 01:08 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Certainly your behavior can be altered; drugs, cognitive-behavioral therapy, and a host of other psychological techniques can help you move against your genetic predispositions.  This does not imply that your personality will be changed by simply holding a different belief, however.




Well, this discussion was originally about why personal attacks shouldn't be allowed when it is allowed to attack ideas. If we agree that both my self-image, and my ideas can change. If we agree that both my self-image, and my ideas, are artificial constructs given to me by my cultural conditioning. Why should we then differentiate between attacking self-images and attacking ideas?

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: Zanthius]
    #10364259 - 05/19/09 01:10 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Zanthius said: Why should we differentiate between attacking self-images and attacking ideas?




Because the point of this forum is for ideological debate; let the best idea win.  Attacking people's self-images (even if this might sometimes overlap with attacking people's ideas) does nothing to determine which ideas are correct or the most persuasive and only drags the forum down with needless ad hominems.


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InvisibleZanthius
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: deCypher]
    #10364298 - 05/19/09 01:18 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Because the point of this forum is for ideological debate; let the best idea win.  Attacking people's self-images (even if this might sometimes overlap with attacking people's ideas) does nothing to determine which ideas are correct or the most persuasive and only drags the forum down with needless ad hominems.




While attacking ideas with hostility does something to determine which ideas are correct, and does not drag the forum down? I certainly have much more fruitful conversations with individuals that don't attack my ideas with hostility, but rather tries to help me to see the world from their perspectives with logical and scientific reasoning.

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Re: Ethical question: [Re: Zanthius]
    #10364327 - 05/19/09 01:23 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Again, granted, but if we're determining what rules we should moderate the forum by then it is clear that we cannot permit attacks upon self-image for interests of a civil discussion.  And good luck trying to prevent hostility from entering into heated philosophical debate.  :lol:


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: Zanthius]
    #10364444 - 05/19/09 01:48 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Zanthius said:
The source is inside of yourself, but due to lack of self-insight, you might be incapable of seeing that your self-image / personality is an artificial construct created by the ideas given to you by your cultural conditioning.




So, your claims are:
- you don't have an ego without cultural context
- (apparently) you also don't have ideas without the cultural context
- you're not identifying yourself with your ideas without it
- you also don't get butt-hurt when someone is attacking your ideas

Then, when asked for evidence, instead of providing it, you're answering me that I can't see it because of my ignorance.
I just wanted to point all these out just to re-emphasize how silly your claims are and easily you're able to break down when unable to sustain your claims.


--------------------
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All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
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Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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InvisibleZanthius
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10364476 - 05/19/09 01:53 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
I just wanted to point all these out just to re-emphasize how silly your claims are and easily you're able to break down when unable to sustain your claims.




I always break down in front of girls like you. Never in front of my professors however. I wonder why.

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: Zanthius]
    #10364489 - 05/19/09 01:57 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Now now Zanthius, you just keep making personalisms after personalisms. :nono:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
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Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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InvisibleZanthius
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10364505 - 05/19/09 02:01 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Now now Zanthius, you just keep making personalisms after personalisms. :nono:




Isn't this also personalism?

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
and easily you're able to break down when unable to sustain your claims




After all, "I" am the one breaking down. Not my beliefs.

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Re: Ethical question: [Re: Zanthius]
    #10364541 - 05/19/09 02:13 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

The personal remark that I made served the purpose of showing that you're completely unable to susatin your point, hence your contributions to the discussion are disastrous.
Your personal attacks helped with nothing in the debate, and they were just a pathetic way of getting put of a situation where you couldn't bring a reliable evidence.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
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Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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InvisibleZanthius
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10364561 - 05/19/09 02:17 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
The personal remark that I made served the purpose of showing that you're completely unable to susatin your point




Oh, really? I must have missed that....

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Your personal attacks helped with nothing in the debate, and they were just a pathetic way of getting put of a situation where you couldn't
bring a reliable evidence.




Oh, really? I thought mine served a purpose, while your personal attack helped with nothing and was just a pathetic way of showing off.

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10365106 - 05/19/09 04:17 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
People who can't take care of their possesions already own too much. They are those immoral people who don't share by themselves...

(for the sake of the discussion)





What are you talking about? :lol:
Why should they share? :what:



Because they didn't own it before anyways :smile:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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OfflineC.M. Mann
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10367212 - 05/19/09 10:45 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

You don't seem to be able to understand any other views but your own. You call me names, and then you accuse me of calling you names! You ask for proof, but refuse to offer your own!  You have some concocted debate rules that you claim I'm breaking, and I've given you very good reasons why stealing is bad. If you feel comfortable justifying bad behaviour, that is your decision. No matter how much you claim that my opinion is of no consequence, I will not change them.  You made the claim that I was wrong, tell me how I am wrong!:peace:

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Re: Ethical question: [Re: C.M. Mann]
    #10368652 - 05/20/09 08:33 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Are you reading and replying t the same thread as I am? I don't know, maybe there are some hidden posts that I made and I can't remember either. :shrug:
Listen, obviously we've discussed everything that could been discussed and now the conversation is stagnating. I've already said what I had to say, and explained my views on stealing, and why I don't think it is necessary wrong. When asked, you didn't care to get into details as to why you thought stealing was wrong, choosing to over-use exclamation points when simply repeating that stealing was bad regardless of the circumstance, and that all thieves couldn't be trusted. If you call this "explaining your views on the matter", then so be it, I'm not interested in this kind of debate.
Furthermore, I've never claimed you were wrong to think this way, since I never got to find out WHY you think the way you do. All I have said was that it's non-constructive and, IMO, foolish, to make a claims without being able to sustain it.
That's all. :grin:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #10368655 - 05/20/09 08:34 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
Because they didn't own it before anyways :smile:




How is this a reason to have a limit of wealth?
We shouldn't live either, I suppose, just because we weren't alive before we were born?


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
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Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10368968 - 05/20/09 10:21 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
Because they didn't own it before anyways :smile:




How is this a reason to have a limit of wealth?
We shouldn't live either, I suppose, just because we weren't alive before we were born?



No, only because 'possession' is a man-mad concept. If an animal 'looses' their 'possessions' or lets it go out of their eyes, the other animals feel free to take it anyways.
We were born nude and without possessions and all one possesses is due to some strange human concepts, formerly called 'strength' hehe. So that's why when the 'strong' one suppresses the weak one, that's kind of immoral. It will lead to war anyways.
So, as you said too, sometimes the weak one is forced to steal, because the strong one keeps all the stuff to themselves, even it belonged not to them before... I could assume and call the strong one 'thieves' by that way too, because first, they stole it from everyone...
I'm native indian thinking in this way...


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Posts: 14,794
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #10369122 - 05/20/09 11:16 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

No, only because 'possession' is a man-mad concept.




So is everything else, including life.
How can the fact that possession is a man made concept make it be in such a way that there should be limit for one's belongings? :strokebeard:

Quote:

If an animal 'looses' their 'possessions' or lets it go out of their eyes, the other animals feel free to take it anyways.




What animal, exactly?
ALL the animals? Obviously not, and obviously this thing doesn't apply to the animal called human.

Quote:

We were born nude and without possessions and all one possesses is due to some strange human concepts, formerly called 'strength' hehe.




Strange?
Compared to what?
On which criteria did you determine that these concepts are strange, and what's the correlation you're trying to draw with "strength hehe"?

Quote:

So that's why when the 'strong' one suppresses the weak one, that's kind of immoral. It will lead to war anyways.




No, it won't lead to war "anyways", and really I don't see how you can claim that people having possessions are suppressing the weak.
People have possessions and money because of their works, skills and abilities. Can you explain me why is this wrong, and why should the people that earn more money share them with the ones that make less or no money at all?
That's a really communistic idea, and it fucks up with the deepest liberties of any being. :frown: Nobody should give their earnings and belongings to anyone, for any other reason than them wanting to.

Quote:

So, as you said too, sometimes the weak one is forced to steal, because the strong one keeps all the stuff to themselves, even it belonged not to them before...




Please don't distort my claims, because I know exactly what I said.
I've never said that a thief is the weak one, I never said that a thief is suppressed by someone, and I never said that a thief HAS to be a thief, because a thief is a only thing a thief can be, because of the circumstances others are creating for him/her.
What I did say was that I didn't consider stealing to be necessarily bad, especially because I don't think of anything to be entirely bad, since I am deeply aware of the fact that it is completely inaccurate and unhealthy to see things as being only black or only white. I've also said that, even though I prefer not to steal, I could think of more than a handful of situations in which I could steal, and that I wouldn't feel any remorse if I would. If I were ever to steal, I would never blame my situation on others, and I would never consider that I ended up stealing because of the situation others have got me into.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10372030 - 05/20/09 08:01 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

I'm not a big friend of this sentence picking reply stuff.

so:
1. life is not a man made concept. Humans made concepts about life. While posession is a concept. What else makes you (concept-less) own something, else than having it in your hand or sitting on it or using it at the moment ? So, there's the difference.
2. maybe the concept of possessions is what makes us different to animals then. Maybe any thought out concept is, which has no real representation in reality/nature...
3. Strange, compared to natures ways of organizing things. Strength, as a former physical concept, we brought from the animal kingdom, transformed now into the virtual 'strength' of the power of money.
4. when people accumulate stuff for living more than they actually need, they prevent others to take share of the resources the earth holds ready for all of us. That provokes the notion of 'unjustness' which inevitably leads to war in some kind or another. We are visitors here anyways...
5. In most cases, it will be a human made situation which will force you to steal...so why don't blame them ?


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

Edited by BlueCoyote (05/20/09 08:11 PM)

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Posts: 14,794
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #10373327 - 05/20/09 11:57 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

1. life is not a man made concept. Humans made concepts about life.




Humans made concepts about everything, I really can't see how the concept of possession is an actual concept, while there's no concept of life because people made concepts about life. :confused:

Quote:

What else makes you (concept-less) own something, else than having it in your hand or sitting on it or using it at the moment ? So, there's the difference.




Where is the difference?
Similarly, it can be said that you're alive only because you were born, and if you weren't born you wouldn't be having it. What does this actually mean? Does this show that, since one was not alive before they were born, their life in not real?

Quote:

2. maybe the concept of possessions is what makes us different to animals then. Maybe any thought out concept is, which has no real representation in reality/nature...




Humans aren't the only animals that have the sense of property, I've already stated that and you chose to simply ignore it.
Aren't you aware of the territorial fight that happens between lions, or wolves?
Just because other animals don't have laws to protect their belongings, it doesn't mean that they don't have other ways of doing so, or that they wouldn't create a legislative system if it was brought to their awareness. :grin:

I really think you must be joking when you're saying that other animals don't have the concept of possession. :rofl:

Quote:

3. Strange, compared to natures ways of organizing things. Strength, as a former physical concept, we brought from the animal kingdom, transformed now into the virtual 'strength' of the power of money.




This is maybe because you refuse to acknowledge that power is everything this term encompasses, even though some situations of power are newer than the others, and this doesn't make them "virtual".
The concepts and theories humans have continuously adapt to all the changes that happen, and arbitrarily calling some of these concepts fake doesn't really make much sense.

Quote:

4. when people accumulate stuff for living more than they actually need, they prevent others to take share of the resources the earth holds ready for all of us. That provokes the notion of 'unjustness' which inevitably leads to war in some kind or another. We are visitors here anyways...




No, this would mean that we have gathered all the necessary data to show us the limit of the resources of this planet, and also the fact that all of them are presently used. This isn't true, and there's still so much space in which people can expand and build homes, societies, cities, etc.
There's still so much free land this planet has to offer, land that can be used for plant cultivation or raising animals.
Moreover, with the help of technology, we are now able to use smaller areas for growing and producing all our food in a much healthier way.
I could go on with this, but I don't see much sense in doing so since I've already made my point.

The bottom line is that a person owning more stuff doesn't necessarily have to translate into someone else's misfortune, and even it is so, it isn't because the resources are limited, but rather of a poor organization. Also, it doesn't mean that the people who own more HAVE to give to the others.

Unless you can first define what "just" is, we can't talk about what's being "unjust".

Quote:

5. In most cases, it will be a human made situation which will force you to steal...so why don't blame them ?




Because I play a role in it too, and I am the only one who's responsible for myself.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10374980 - 05/21/09 08:19 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Quote:

1. life is not a man made concept. Humans made concepts about life.




Humans made concepts about everything, I really can't see how the concept of possession is an actual concept, while there's no concept of life because people made concepts about life. :confused:


If you cancel life, everything is dead. If you cancel possession, nothing changes. That's why posession is a man made concept while life is not.

Quote:

Quote:

What else makes you (concept-less) own something, else than having it in your hand or sitting on it or using it at the moment ? So, there's the difference.




Where is the difference?
Similarly, it can be said that you're alive only because you were born, and if you weren't born you wouldn't be having it. What does this actually mean? Does this show that, since one was not alive before they were born, their life in not real?



If they even weren't conceived, then their life is not real. I mean, on can clearly discern life from non-life, while posession and non-possession is just some changing human artificial definition.

Quote:

Quote:

2. maybe the concept of possessions is what makes us different to animals then. Maybe any thought out concept is, which has no real representation in reality/nature...




Humans aren't the only animals that have the sense of property, I've already stated that and you chose to simply ignore it.
Aren't you aware of the territorial fight that happens between lions, or wolves?
Just because other animals don't have laws to protect their belongings, it doesn't mean that they don't have other ways of doing so, or that they wouldn't create a legislative system if it was brought to their awareness. :grin:

I really think you must be joking when you're saying that other animals don't have the concept of possession. :rofl:



Yes, if a dog burries a bone, it only can hope that noone finds it. Whatever concept he would have in mind. There is no dog-police where he can run and claim its vitual right about 'posession'.

Quote:

Quote:

3. Strange, compared to natures ways of organizing things. Strength, as a former physical concept, we brought from the animal kingdom, transformed now into the virtual 'strength' of the power of money.




This is maybe because you refuse to acknowledge that power is everything this term encompasses, even though some situations of power are newer than the others, and this doesn't make them "virtual".
The concepts and theories humans have continuously adapt to all the changes that happen, and arbitrarily calling some of these concepts fake doesn't really make much sense.



Try to eat money. Without other humans it only can be used to burn or wipe one's ass. That makes its value virtual.

Quote:

Quote:

4. when people accumulate stuff for living more than they actually need, they prevent others to take share of the resources the earth holds ready for all of us. That provokes the notion of 'unjustness' which inevitably leads to war in some kind or another. We are visitors here anyways...




No, this would mean that we have gathered all the necessary data to show us the limit of the resources of this planet, and also the fact that all of them are presently used. This isn't true, and there's still so much space in which people can expand and build homes, societies, cities, etc.
There's still so much free land this planet has to offer, land that can be used for plant cultivation or raising animals.
Moreover, with the help of technology, we are now able to use smaller areas for growing and producing all our food in a much healthier way.
I could go on with this, but I don't see much sense in doing so since I've already made my point.

The bottom line is that a person owning more stuff doesn't necessarily have to translate into someone else's misfortune, and even it is so, it isn't because the resources are limited, but rather of a poor organization. Also, it doesn't mean that the people who own more HAVE to give to the others.

Unless you can first define what "just" is, we can't talk about what's being "unjust".

Quote:

5. In most cases, it will be a human made situation which will force you to steal...so why don't blame them ?




Because I play a role in it too, and I am the only one who's responsible for myself.



Good luck with that when you are surrounded by man made walls, for example.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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OfflineMushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
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Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #10380539 - 05/22/09 06:59 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

If you cancel life, everything is dead. If you cancel possession, nothing changes. That's why posession is a man made concept while life is not.




No matter how much you try to make it look different, it isn't. Both life and possession are man made concepts, the fact that they mean different things doesn't mean that possession shouldn't exist, or that is artificial. :lol:
It is obviously real, by the simple fact the we create it, make use of it, benefit or it's effects, and create laws for it.

Quote:

If they even weren't conceived, then their life is not real. I mean, on can clearly discern life from non-life, while posession and non-possession is just some changing human artificial definition.




Oh, come on. :rofl:
Similarly, if possession didn't exist then it wouldn't have been real. Obviously, it exists so I don't know how you'll make it nonexistent by simply ignoring it. :shrug2:

Quote:

Yes, if a dog burries a bone, it only can hope that noone finds it. Whatever concept he would have in mind. There is no dog-police where he can run and claim its vitual right about 'posession'.




This is supposed to mean what?
Dogs fight over territories, and have specific ways of marking them. It's actually really close to our concept of property. If another dog or pack of dogs cross that line, they will get attacked by the owners.
There's lots of human made concepts that weren't present right from the first moment humanity has existed, but this doesn't make them less real. I can understand that you personally don't agree and don't like this concept of possession, but from this to stating that this concept isn't real, there's a loooong way. :lol:

Quote:

Try to eat money. Without other humans it only can be used to burn or wipe one's ass. That makes its value virtual.




Try to get shelter from a land. Without a building with a roof and walls, you can't have it.
What's your point? If we weren't able to use money as an exchange for others services and products, we would simply stop using them, but momentarily we do use them. Nobody here suggested eating money.

Quote:

Good luck with that when you are surrounded by man made walls, for example.




Oh yeah, and blaming other people will help me so much, when surrounded by man-made walls. :rofl2:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Posts: 6,697
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10380584 - 05/22/09 07:16 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Quote:

If you cancel life, everything is dead. If you cancel possession, nothing changes. That's why posession is a man made concept while life is not.




No matter how much you try to make it look different, it isn't. Both life and possession are man made concepts, the fact that they mean different things doesn't mean that possession shouldn't exist, or that is artificial. :lol:
It is obviously real, by the simple fact the we create it, make use of it, benefit or it's effects, and create laws for it.


Artificial laws.

Quote:

Quote:

If they even weren't conceived, then their life is not real. I mean, on can clearly discern life from non-life, while possession and non-possession is just some changing human artificial definition.




Oh, come on. :rofl:
Similarly, if possession didn't exist then it wouldn't have been real.


It is not real. It does not exist in reality, only in conceptual mind.
Quote:

Obviously, it exists so I don't know how you'll make it nonexistent by simply ignoring it. :shrug2:


You lay too much emphasis onto fantastic concepts. They are just in humans mind, nowhere else in reality.

Quote:

Quote:

Yes, if a dog burries a bone, it only can hope that noone finds it. Whatever concept he would have in mind. There is no dog-police where he can run and claim its virtual right about 'posession'.




This is supposed to mean what?
Dogs fight over territories, and have specific ways of marking them. It's actually really close to our concept of property. If another dog or pack of dogs cross that line, they will get attacked by the owners.
There's lots of human made concepts that weren't present right from the first moment humanity has existed, but this doesn't make them less real. I can understand that you personally don't agree and don't like this concept of possession, but from this to stating that this concept isn't real, there's a loooong way. :lol:

Quote:

Try to eat money. Without other humans it only can be used to burn or wipe one's ass. That makes its value virtual.




Try to get shelter from a land. Without a building with a roof and walls, you can't have it.
What's your point? If we weren't able to use money as an exchange for others services and products, we would simply stop using them, but momentarily we do use them. Nobody here suggested eating money.



try to build it alone, only with money... it will not work when there are no other people around.

Quote:

Quote:

Good luck with that when you are surrounded by man made walls, for example.




Oh yeah, and blaming other people will help me so much, when surrounded by man-made walls. :rofl2:



blaming them who built the walls, nothing less, but exactly NOT blaming me for the walls being there.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Invisiblezen buddy
not a buddhist
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Registered: 01/22/09
Posts: 704
Re: Ethical question: [Re: C.M. Mann]
    #10381566 - 05/22/09 11:30 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

C.M. Mann said:
You don't seem to be able to understand any other views but your own. You call me names, and then you accuse me of calling you names! You ask for proof, but refuse to offer your own!  You have some concocted debate rules that you claim I'm breaking, and I've given you very good reasons why stealing is bad. If you feel comfortable justifying bad behaviour, that is your decision. No matter how much you claim that my opinion is of no consequence, I will not change them.  You made the claim that I was wrong, tell me how I am wrong!:peace:




Some people are not worth our time.

Some people will never change, snuggling in their denial like a warm blanket from childhood.

Generally speaking, of course.

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