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OfflineBlueCoyote
Beyond
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Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: Ethical question: [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10374980 - 05/21/09 08:19 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

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MushroomTrip said:
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1. life is not a man made concept. Humans made concepts about life.




Humans made concepts about everything, I really can't see how the concept of possession is an actual concept, while there's no concept of life because people made concepts about life. :confused:


If you cancel life, everything is dead. If you cancel possession, nothing changes. That's why posession is a man made concept while life is not.

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What else makes you (concept-less) own something, else than having it in your hand or sitting on it or using it at the moment ? So, there's the difference.




Where is the difference?
Similarly, it can be said that you're alive only because you were born, and if you weren't born you wouldn't be having it. What does this actually mean? Does this show that, since one was not alive before they were born, their life in not real?



If they even weren't conceived, then their life is not real. I mean, on can clearly discern life from non-life, while posession and non-possession is just some changing human artificial definition.

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2. maybe the concept of possessions is what makes us different to animals then. Maybe any thought out concept is, which has no real representation in reality/nature...




Humans aren't the only animals that have the sense of property, I've already stated that and you chose to simply ignore it.
Aren't you aware of the territorial fight that happens between lions, or wolves?
Just because other animals don't have laws to protect their belongings, it doesn't mean that they don't have other ways of doing so, or that they wouldn't create a legislative system if it was brought to their awareness. :grin:

I really think you must be joking when you're saying that other animals don't have the concept of possession. :rofl:



Yes, if a dog burries a bone, it only can hope that noone finds it. Whatever concept he would have in mind. There is no dog-police where he can run and claim its vitual right about 'posession'.

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3. Strange, compared to natures ways of organizing things. Strength, as a former physical concept, we brought from the animal kingdom, transformed now into the virtual 'strength' of the power of money.




This is maybe because you refuse to acknowledge that power is everything this term encompasses, even though some situations of power are newer than the others, and this doesn't make them "virtual".
The concepts and theories humans have continuously adapt to all the changes that happen, and arbitrarily calling some of these concepts fake doesn't really make much sense.



Try to eat money. Without other humans it only can be used to burn or wipe one's ass. That makes its value virtual.

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4. when people accumulate stuff for living more than they actually need, they prevent others to take share of the resources the earth holds ready for all of us. That provokes the notion of 'unjustness' which inevitably leads to war in some kind or another. We are visitors here anyways...




No, this would mean that we have gathered all the necessary data to show us the limit of the resources of this planet, and also the fact that all of them are presently used. This isn't true, and there's still so much space in which people can expand and build homes, societies, cities, etc.
There's still so much free land this planet has to offer, land that can be used for plant cultivation or raising animals.
Moreover, with the help of technology, we are now able to use smaller areas for growing and producing all our food in a much healthier way.
I could go on with this, but I don't see much sense in doing so since I've already made my point.

The bottom line is that a person owning more stuff doesn't necessarily have to translate into someone else's misfortune, and even it is so, it isn't because the resources are limited, but rather of a poor organization. Also, it doesn't mean that the people who own more HAVE to give to the others.

Unless you can first define what "just" is, we can't talk about what's being "unjust".

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5. In most cases, it will be a human made situation which will force you to steal...so why don't blame them ?




Because I play a role in it too, and I am the only one who's responsible for myself.



Good luck with that when you are surrounded by man made walls, for example.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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OfflineMushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
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Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #10380539 - 05/22/09 06:59 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

If you cancel life, everything is dead. If you cancel possession, nothing changes. That's why posession is a man made concept while life is not.




No matter how much you try to make it look different, it isn't. Both life and possession are man made concepts, the fact that they mean different things doesn't mean that possession shouldn't exist, or that is artificial. :lol:
It is obviously real, by the simple fact the we create it, make use of it, benefit or it's effects, and create laws for it.

Quote:

If they even weren't conceived, then their life is not real. I mean, on can clearly discern life from non-life, while posession and non-possession is just some changing human artificial definition.




Oh, come on. :rofl:
Similarly, if possession didn't exist then it wouldn't have been real. Obviously, it exists so I don't know how you'll make it nonexistent by simply ignoring it. :shrug2:

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Yes, if a dog burries a bone, it only can hope that noone finds it. Whatever concept he would have in mind. There is no dog-police where he can run and claim its vitual right about 'posession'.




This is supposed to mean what?
Dogs fight over territories, and have specific ways of marking them. It's actually really close to our concept of property. If another dog or pack of dogs cross that line, they will get attacked by the owners.
There's lots of human made concepts that weren't present right from the first moment humanity has existed, but this doesn't make them less real. I can understand that you personally don't agree and don't like this concept of possession, but from this to stating that this concept isn't real, there's a loooong way. :lol:

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Try to eat money. Without other humans it only can be used to burn or wipe one's ass. That makes its value virtual.




Try to get shelter from a land. Without a building with a roof and walls, you can't have it.
What's your point? If we weren't able to use money as an exchange for others services and products, we would simply stop using them, but momentarily we do use them. Nobody here suggested eating money.

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Good luck with that when you are surrounded by man made walls, for example.




Oh yeah, and blaming other people will help me so much, when surrounded by man-made walls. :rofl2:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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OfflineBlueCoyote
Beyond
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Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
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Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: Ethical question: [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10380584 - 05/22/09 07:16 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Quote:

If you cancel life, everything is dead. If you cancel possession, nothing changes. That's why posession is a man made concept while life is not.




No matter how much you try to make it look different, it isn't. Both life and possession are man made concepts, the fact that they mean different things doesn't mean that possession shouldn't exist, or that is artificial. :lol:
It is obviously real, by the simple fact the we create it, make use of it, benefit or it's effects, and create laws for it.


Artificial laws.

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If they even weren't conceived, then their life is not real. I mean, on can clearly discern life from non-life, while possession and non-possession is just some changing human artificial definition.




Oh, come on. :rofl:
Similarly, if possession didn't exist then it wouldn't have been real.


It is not real. It does not exist in reality, only in conceptual mind.
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Obviously, it exists so I don't know how you'll make it nonexistent by simply ignoring it. :shrug2:


You lay too much emphasis onto fantastic concepts. They are just in humans mind, nowhere else in reality.

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Yes, if a dog burries a bone, it only can hope that noone finds it. Whatever concept he would have in mind. There is no dog-police where he can run and claim its virtual right about 'posession'.




This is supposed to mean what?
Dogs fight over territories, and have specific ways of marking them. It's actually really close to our concept of property. If another dog or pack of dogs cross that line, they will get attacked by the owners.
There's lots of human made concepts that weren't present right from the first moment humanity has existed, but this doesn't make them less real. I can understand that you personally don't agree and don't like this concept of possession, but from this to stating that this concept isn't real, there's a loooong way. :lol:

Quote:

Try to eat money. Without other humans it only can be used to burn or wipe one's ass. That makes its value virtual.




Try to get shelter from a land. Without a building with a roof and walls, you can't have it.
What's your point? If we weren't able to use money as an exchange for others services and products, we would simply stop using them, but momentarily we do use them. Nobody here suggested eating money.



try to build it alone, only with money... it will not work when there are no other people around.

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Good luck with that when you are surrounded by man made walls, for example.




Oh yeah, and blaming other people will help me so much, when surrounded by man-made walls. :rofl2:



blaming them who built the walls, nothing less, but exactly NOT blaming me for the walls being there.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Invisiblezen buddy
not a buddhist
Male User Gallery


Registered: 01/22/09
Posts: 704
Re: Ethical question: [Re: C.M. Mann]
    #10381566 - 05/22/09 11:30 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

C.M. Mann said:
You don't seem to be able to understand any other views but your own. You call me names, and then you accuse me of calling you names! You ask for proof, but refuse to offer your own!  You have some concocted debate rules that you claim I'm breaking, and I've given you very good reasons why stealing is bad. If you feel comfortable justifying bad behaviour, that is your decision. No matter how much you claim that my opinion is of no consequence, I will not change them.  You made the claim that I was wrong, tell me how I am wrong!:peace:




Some people are not worth our time.

Some people will never change, snuggling in their denial like a warm blanket from childhood.

Generally speaking, of course.

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