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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: C.M. Mann]
    #10359401 - 05/18/09 04:05 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

So many exclamation points and no consistent meaning. :smirk:

Of course I'm just one person, but your claims are still uncovered and only backed up by irrational answers that have no place in a debate.
You saying that it is bad to steal, no matter the circumstances, is no different than someone saying that drugs are bad, no matter what. Hopefully people will grow up and start avoiding situations that require a higher degree of attention and more thinking, and maybe they will stop having an opinion about something they don't know almost anything. This would benefit us greatly, because we will discover a whole new world out there and a reality that's far more complex and detailed than some are trying to make of it, just to save themselves from too much thinking or from having to face their own doubts and fears.

Tell me, if there's a war and as a result of this war you and your family will be completely broke and with no food or shelter or anyone to get help from, would you steal or not? Why?


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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InvisibledeCypher
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Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Ethical question: [Re: C.M. Mann]
    #10359909 - 05/18/09 05:23 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

C.M. Mann said: Under no circumstance would theft be a good thing!




So if I'm starving on the streets, about to die of hunger, and my only chance of getting food is to take a loaf of bread from a store, I should do the moral thing and die rather than take it?


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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OfflineC.M. Mann
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10360009 - 05/18/09 05:43 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

So, it is your opinion that I am irrational, immature,and ignorant. Did I leave anything out?  Under no circumstance is theft justified. We are humans ,capable of taking care of ourselves without victimizing our neighbors! I have seen no "proof" in your argument, Just you calling me names. I guess you think by berating me, it makes your argument more rational.

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OfflineC.M. Mann
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: deCypher]
    #10360209 - 05/18/09 06:06 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

"What if's" Is it right for me to bring misery on another human, just because I'm miserable?  "What if" someone puts a bullet in your head just because they are hungry? "What if" that was all the food you had for your family? Would you justify this behaviour?  We are not animals reacting without thought, and every human deserves equal treatment. This I'm hungry in a holocaust argument is weak and statistically rare.  If you are starving in the street, there are many things you can do to earn your food. You won't starve overnight.

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: C.M. Mann]
    #10360238 - 05/18/09 06:09 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Unlikely as these kinds of scenarios may be, my point is that there are certain circumstances (albeit rare) where theft is justified.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: C.M. Mann]
    #10360642 - 05/18/09 07:11 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

If you are starving in the street, there are many things you can do to earn your food. You won't starve overnight.




Dumpster diving FTW. :yesnod: Whee!


--------------------

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OfflineC.M. Mann
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: deCypher]
    #10360864 - 05/18/09 07:55 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

I understand your point. Under those conditions one must make a point to themselves to repay the "loan", as soon as you are able. Do unto others...  I don't base my beliefs on any Religious dogma, that is just the way I live my life.  If you bridle an idea with a "lowest denominator" , your clarity becomes clouded.  I am not preaching that everyone must conform, but I would not let a thief in my house. What if you had children? You would be putting them at risk.  What if he didn't steal from you, but stole from your friends while in your house. What if he had stolen from a drug dealer, and they finally found him at your place?  Everyone is free to have their own opinions, but you must also be ready to accept the consequences of your actions.

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Offlinezouden
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: C.M. Mann]
    #10362350 - 05/19/09 01:22 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

"What if's" Is it right for me to bring misery on another human, just because I'm miserable?




Depends on the nature of the crime and the impact on the victim. Stealing a loaf of bread from a hungry orphan is very different to stealing one from the delivery truck of a major supermarket chain. Hell, there are many scenarios where you could steal something and it wouldn't have any impact on anyone. That doesn't necessarily make it right, but it's less wrong.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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InvisibleZanthius
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: deCypher]
    #10362446 - 05/19/09 02:09 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
So if I'm starving on the streets, about to die of hunger, and my only chance of getting food is to take a loaf of bread from a store, I should do the moral thing and die rather than take it?




If I had to steal food in order to survive, I would blame myself for getting into that situation.

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
You saying that it is bad to steal, no matter the circumstances, is no different than someone saying that drugs are bad, no matter what.




It is very different, because when you are abusing drugs you are mainly causing harm to yourself, while when you are stealing you are causing harm to other people.

Quote:

zouden said:
Hell, there are many scenarios where you could steal something and it wouldn't have any impact on anyone.




If you are just thinking about a single incident you might be right, but if everybody starts to steal from places where they think it won't have any impact, it will definitely start to have an impact.

Edited by Zanthius (05/19/09 02:19 AM)

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: C.M. Mann]
    #10362466 - 05/19/09 02:19 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

C.M. Mann said:
So, it is your opinion that I am irrational, immature,and ignorant. Did I leave anything out?  Under no circumstance is theft justified. We are humans ,capable of taking care of ourselves without victimizing our neighbors! I have seen no "proof" in your argument, Just you calling me names. I guess you think by berating me, it makes your argument more rational.




Can you show me where I've called you names, because from what I remember I only said that the points you were trying to make were weak and irrational and that they don't have anything to do with a debate.
Besides, why should you see any "proof" in my argument? You're the one that vehemently said that stealing was bad under any circumstance, and I'm still waiting for a coherent, rational explanation. I guess I just won't get that. :shrug:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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InvisibleZanthius
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10362476 - 05/19/09 02:22 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Can you show me where I've called you names, because from what I remember I only said that the points you were trying to make were weak and irrational and that they don't have anything to do with a debate.




I don't think the way you are arguing here has anything to do in a debate, and it is almost personalism, because you are actually saying that he is "weak and irrational", when you are saying that his points are "weak and irrational".

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: Zanthius]
    #10362481 - 05/19/09 02:23 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Zanthius said:
It is very different, because when you are abusing drugs you are mainly causing harm to yourself, while when you are stealing you are causing harm to other people.





It is the same thing.
Perhaps you misunderstood my words. I didn't say that taking drugs is the same with stealing, I said that saying "drugs are bad", without any further elaboration is the same with saying "stealing is bad" without any explanation.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: Zanthius]
    #10362485 - 05/19/09 02:25 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Zanthius said:
because you are actually saying that he is "weak and irrational", when you are saying that his points are "weak and irrational".




Oh really? Then maybe you can explain how you've reached this conclusion, other than you own projection.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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InvisibleZanthius
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10362511 - 05/19/09 02:33 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Oh really? Then maybe you can explain how you've reached this conclusion, other than you own projection.




People are their opinions and their beliefs. Your ego is the dynamic conceptualization of reality that is generating the thoughts in your mind from thoughts already stored in your mind. If you are saying that my "opinions" are "weak and irrational", you are actually saying that I am "weak and irrational", because your attack is directed towards my ego.

I don't differentiate between somebody saying that "I am weak and irrational", and somebody saying that "my opinions are weak and irrational". Both attacks are directed toward my ego.

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: Zanthius]
    #10362526 - 05/19/09 02:39 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Well, this doesn't mean that this is how things actually are.
I don't know the poster, so I can't have an opinion about who he is, but I can have an opinion about the ideas he is presenting in a thread. In fact, these are the mechanics of this forum - to discuss and, when needed, attack ideas. Of course, I am well aware of the fact that one's person hood consists of so much more than an idea or two posted on a forum, and I could never make the mistake to actually think that, only because someone has said something stupid, they are stupid.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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InvisibleMufungo
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: Zanthius]
    #10362540 - 05/19/09 02:44 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

So what am I saying about You if I say that only some of your opinions are weak and irrational while your other opinions are strong and rational?


--------------------

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InvisibleZanthius
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10362544 - 05/19/09 02:45 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
In fact, these are the mechanics of this forum - to discuss and, when needed, attack ideas.




Here you are seriously mistaken. Attacking ideas is the same as attacking people. A fruitful debate is not about attacking the ideas of your opponent, but rather about trying to get your intellectual opponent to see reality from your perspective, without any hostility involved in the process.

When I am "debating" with my professors, they are not attacking me, they are "teaching me". And that is what a fruitful debate should be about. It should be about teaching each other, not about attacking each other.

Quote:

Mufungo said:
So what am I saying about You if I say that only some of your opinions are weak and irrational while your other opinions are strong and rational?




You could also say that only some of my personality is "weak and irrational". It would be the same thing.

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InvisibleMufungo
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: Zanthius]
    #10362560 - 05/19/09 02:54 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

So you're a glass half empty kind of guy then?


--------------------

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Offlinezouden
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: Zanthius]
    #10362574 - 05/19/09 03:00 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Zanthius said:

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
You saying that it is bad to steal, no matter the circumstances, is no different than someone saying that drugs are bad, no matter what.




It is very different, because when you are abusing drugs you are mainly causing harm to yourself, while when you are stealing you are causing harm to other people.



Indeed. In other words, the magnitude of the crime is based on the impact on the victim.

Quote:

Quote:

zouden said:
Hell, there are many scenarios where you could steal something and it wouldn't have any impact on anyone.




If you are just thinking about a single incident you might be right, but if everybody starts to steal from places where they think it won't have any impact, it will definitely start to have an impact.





Of course, but that doesn't change the fact that some crimes are worse than others. If all things are taken into consideration then it is possible to justify some criminal actions (which is not the same thing as justifying the crime, however).


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Ethical question: [Re: Zanthius]
    #10362616 - 05/19/09 03:20 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Zanthius said:
I don't differentiate between somebody saying that "I am weak and irrational", and somebody saying that "my opinions are weak and irrational".




That's your cognitive failure, then. There's obviously a difference, at least in Logic Land.

Quote:

Zanthius said:
A fruitful debate is not about attacking the ideas of your opponent, but rather about trying to get your intellectual opponent to see reality from your perspective, without any hostility involved in the process.




Different people have different motivations and interests in debating, and perhaps it fulfills a useful end sometimes for ideas to be attacked without interest in "educating" the person that happened to be the one who said them.

Your idea of what constitutes "fruitful" is not the end all-be all of debate for everyone. The fact that you don't see the benefits that can and do result from criticizing or "attacking" ideas (ignoring the wrong assertion that somehow criticizing an idea is criticizing the person themselves), doesn't exclude those benefits or those who enjoy them. Not everyone is out for the same thing as you are at all times nor is that thing you speak of somehow the golden way every debate "should" be.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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