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Offlineratshit
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Registered: 05/05/09
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Please explain: Could you "split cultivated mycelium" & regenerate ?
    #10320803 - 05/11/09 03:52 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Hello Trippers,

This is a theoretical question, mostly to cement my understanding of the grow process and the mushroom life-cycle. I'd appreciate it if anyone can confirm or shoot down what I'm visualising - as being feasible or bollocks - along with a decent explanation.

Referring to the Shroom Wizard's Grow Guide process to give some context:
http://www.shroomery.org/8687/Shroom-Wizards-Grow-Guide

So let's assume:
  • the cakes were made & inoculated
  • the mycelium colonisation of the substrate was successful
  • the mature cakes were crumbled onto a manure/compost/soil bed in a tray
  • the bed/cake layers were cased with soil
  • the filled & covered trays were left alone for seven days

Now we get to this point:

Quote:

By now you should have a white fungi (mould) growing across the surface of the soil. This is your mature mycelium looking for a place to have its babies.





Here is my question:
Could you split the first tray contents and transfer each half into a second and third tray, crumbling onto a fresh manure/compost/soil bed in each to re-case again to regrow two fresh full trays ?

And then of course, in theory, repeat the process to split 2 into 4 into 8 into 16 trays etc.

I'm posing this question mainly to get my head around the grow stages/cycle:
Will mycelial growth continue to spread across virgin substrate indefinitely if it is kept under the right conditions ? i.e. re-covered and kept below a soil surface away from direct light and "breakthrough" oxygen.

A secondly consideration for the question is that if this is feasible then it would offer a way to start off one inoculation process of say 4 jars only, and then split as above into an indefinite chain reaction for mass cultivation.

This would also allow an approach of splitting:
- 1 tray to a "recover" and fruiting path and
- 1 tray to a "recover" and resplit path
which would eventually result in a tray of fruit maturing for harvest each week.

It could also open a door (sorry Jim) to spreading the Timothy Leary philosophy of "turn on a friend, give him a tray and instructions to split the tray and turn on a friend and give him a tray ... ad infinitum"

[ You might have guessed by now that this is post is brought to you by the rambling mind of a newbie who has 1st time inoculated jars sitting in his cupboard and is trying to pass the time while waiting for signs of mycelial life ]


--------------------
Imagine a world without hypothetical situations.

Edited by ratshit (05/11/09 05:05 AM)

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OfflineApple core
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Registered: 03/21/09
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Re: Please explain: Could you "split cultivated mycelium" & regenerate ? [Re: ratshit]
    #10320904 - 05/11/09 04:51 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

In theory this would work. Up to a point.

Nearly all cells, except tumors, experience a phenomenon called senescence. This basically where a cell is 'pre-programmed' to only make a set number of divisions.

In other words, each time your mycellia has to grow to occupy a new substrate, it becomes a little weaker at doing so. This leaves it open to invasion by contaminants. Even if you had a completely sterile substrate - the mycellia's ability to consistently produce mushrooms would decrease.

By growing the spores of mushrooms you break the senescence run. Also, but I'm not completely sure about this so somebody correct me, I think that by cloning mushroom tissue this can also be achieved because they are part of the spore forming stage? I'm not completely sure though...

So I would say - Yes, go for it, but make sure you occasionally revitalize your grows with spores. Either when you see a drop in productivity or before. You should learn the timings of it if you do it enough - so you can begin again just before you lose productivity - giving you continual mushroom flow!

Good luck!

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Offlinefltdriver82
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Re: Please explain: Could you "split cultivated mycelium" & regenerate ? [Re: Apple core]
    #10321163 - 05/11/09 06:34 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

3 times is all I've been able to "split" a grow without adverse effects. I do this with G2G instead of dividing the substrate. Once you've made a tray and cased it I wouldn't bother breaking it up just to have another tray. Wait for your first flush, harvest spores, use grains for bulk.

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Please explain: Could you "split cultivated mycelium" & regenerate ? [Re: fltdriver82]
    #10321383 - 05/11/09 07:49 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Here is my question:
Could you split the first tray contents and transfer each half into a second and third tray, crumbling onto a fresh manure/compost/soil bed in each to re-case again to regrow two fresh full trays ?

And then of course, in theory, repeat the process to split 2 into 4 into 8 into 16 trays etc.




No.  The mycelium doesn't run out of food.  It grows old and gets weak.  Look up the term 'senescence'.  Remember, you can't go to the retirement center and feed the old men a steak, and expect them to get out and do construction work.  It's the same with mushroom mycelium.
RR


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semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison

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OfflineShroomWhore
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Re: Please explain: Could you "split cultivated mycelium" & regenerate ? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #10321687 - 05/11/09 09:40 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

This is a good question but that made me wonder if the same applies for G2G with WBS? Is there only so many jars you can transfer before you have to start from scratch? If so how many?

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Offlinehoudinihar
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Re: Please explain: Could you "split cultivated mycelium" & regenerate ? [Re: ShroomWhore]
    #10321732 - 05/11/09 09:53 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Here is my question:
Could you split the first tray contents and transfer each half into a second and third tray, crumbling onto a fresh manure/compost/soil bed in each to re-case again to regrow two fresh full trays ?





the concept is used for grain to grain expansion all the time, but as Apple core and RR said senescence comes into play eventually.

now here is an interesting question regarding this concept. what about those evergrowing fairy rings of mycelia that grow and grow year after year? where does senescence fit in there? or those tree growing fungi that produce year after year on the same tree in the same place? maybe senescence affects different genera of fungi differently.

houdinihar

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Please explain: Could you "split cultivated mycelium" & regenerate ? [Re: houdinihar]
    #10321768 - 05/11/09 10:06 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Every year, those mushrooms drop spores, which enter the soil or wood and then germinate.  The new mycelium then joins up with the old, constantly refreshing the genetics.
RR


--------------------
Download Let's Grow Mushrooms



semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison

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Offlinehoudinihar
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Re: Please explain: Could you "split cultivated mycelium" & regenerate ? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #10321930 - 05/11/09 10:54 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

thank you RR. always learning. i am a perpetual student of life.

houdinihar

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Offlineratshit
mister


Registered: 05/05/09
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Re: Please explain: Could you "split cultivated mycelium" & regenerate ? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #10326047 - 05/12/09 07:34 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
The mycelium doesn't run out of food.  It grows old and gets weak.  Look up the term 'senescence'.  Remember, you can't go to the retirement center and feed the old men a steak, and expect them to get out and do construction work.  It's the same with mushroom mycelium.
RR




Esteemed RR ...

To round out my edification, do you refer to Cellular senescence or Organismal senescence ?

At first I assume the entire mycelial growth patch to be one organism growing in size/area through simple cell division ...

But then I add the multi-site inoculation beginnings ... and conclude that up to 4 origination sites could produce up to 4 different genetic cell patterns.

So I although you have addressed my original practical question, I'm still a little confused by detail, and hope you can untangle me.

Thanks, much appreciated.


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Offlinenoggin
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Re: Please explain: Could you "split cultivated mycelium" & regenerate ? [Re: ratshit]
    #10326083 - 05/12/09 07:52 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

RR if you would further clear something up for me on this topic...

Working with agar and master slants and petri dishes, does the mycellium not 'age' through these tactics?  Or is the amount of growth negligible in these environments?

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InvisibleDoc_T
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Re: Please explain: Could you "split cultivated mycelium" & regenerate ? [Re: noggin]
    #10326139 - 05/12/09 08:17 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I'm not RR, but-
You get continued growth, but it's slow. And you take a fresh sample from the original culture, so you are always starting from a young cell line. You get so many cell divisions* before your cell line reaches senescence. By pulling your stock from a young master culture, you extend its future life.

*I seem to recall it's about 70. I could be wrong on the number, but that gives you some idea, at least.


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