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InvisibleRoger Fudd
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WTF is Intent?
    #10319685 - 05/10/09 10:15 PM (15 years, 12 days ago)

Hi all!
I was wondering, what is intent in the context of "intent to manufacture"? I'm growing gourmet/medicinal mushies only, but I want to get a spore print. Would possessing the spore print in conjunction with materials that are used to cultivate mushrooms be considered intent? If someone (the judge) sees a bunch of jars with legal mycelium growing in it and a spore print of a psychoactive species, is that considered intent? Note that I don't intend to germinate the spores. Thanks for all replies.

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InvisibleSuperD
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Re: WTF is Intent? [Re: Roger Fudd]
    #10320459 - 05/11/09 01:31 AM (15 years, 12 days ago)

If law enforcement discovered your legal grow and the spore print together, you would definitely face charges of intent to cultivate.  It would take thousands of dollars and a good attorney later to prove yourself innocent.  Pro tip: don't get busted!


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InvisibleGreen_T
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Re: WTF is Intent? [Re: SuperD]
    #10321575 - 05/11/09 08:59 AM (15 years, 11 days ago)

If you are going to do this, either keep your microscopy spores off premises, or in a locked box.

Keep them locked up with your microscopy equipment, such as slides.

This won't get you off free, but will be easier to argue that the spores were being used for microscopy instead of cultivation in court.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: WTF is Intent? [Re: Roger Fudd]
    #10321871 - 05/11/09 10:39 AM (15 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

Roger Fudd said:
Hi all!
I was wondering, what is intent in the context of "intent to manufacture"? I'm growing gourmet/medicinal mushies only, but I want to get a spore print. Would possessing the spore print in conjunction with materials that are used to cultivate mushrooms be considered intent? If someone (the judge) sees a bunch of jars with legal mycelium growing in it and a spore print of a psychoactive species, is that considered intent? Note that I don't intend to germinate the spores. Thanks for all replies.







You are confusing definitions of crimes or elements of them with the sufficiency of the evidence.


Its a commonly confused distinction on these boards, cuz people like to make sense of vague laws, but you shouldn't let yoruself take those shortcuts.

1)  you've not cited a particular law so the answer is going to be general and may not apply at all to you .  If you wonder about a law you should ask about that law rather than general terms- the title of an offense doens't have to relate to the offense

2)  You are actually asking about sufficiency of the evidence to prove intent.  Intent is a state of mind, it is not a collection of items.

You are asking what would show intent.  By definition, of course having those items wouldn't establish the definition of intent, but it may get you convicted.


The fact finder would have to find you intended to cultivate.  They would decide you had that state of mind.  They use evidence to determine that.  This will usually be your words.  So number one, shut up.  Its kind of pointless talking about this stuff in most cases since people convict themselves with their own statements almost all the time.


Anyways, it is quite possible that having spore prints and cultivation materials could form a signifigant portion of the evidence of intent.  I would like to say that these alone will not compri9se sufficient evidence to convict you in the abstract, but that situation would never really happen.  People talk, people have other drugs in the house, people have stuff on their computer, people's friends talk, et cet.



If you had that stuff you could certainly be arrested and indicted.  While the generic law that just punishes intent to cultivate wouldn't, as far as I know, be satisfied by only the evidence you posit, that doesn't mean having that stuff won't get you convicted as their is ALWAYS other eivdnece. 


Basically, yeah, you are right to worry, in practical terms finding that stuff could get your ass convicted given the other evidence they are sure to get (or you or your friends will give them willingly).

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InvisibleRoger Fudd
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Re: WTF is Intent? [Re: johnm214]
    #10323728 - 05/11/09 06:36 PM (15 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:

You are confusing definitions of crimes or elements of them with the sufficiency of the evidence.


Its a commonly confused distinction on these boards, cuz people like to make sense of vague laws, but you shouldn't let yoruself take those shortcuts.

1)  you've not cited a particular law so the answer is going to be general and may not apply at all to you .  If you wonder about a law you should ask about that law rather than general terms- the title of an offense doens't have to relate to the offense

2)  You are actually asking about sufficiency of the evidence to prove intent.  Intent is a state of mind, it is not a collection of items.

You are asking what would show intent.  By definition, of course having those items wouldn't establish the definition of intent, but it may get you convicted.


The fact finder would have to find you intended to cultivate.  They would decide you had that state of mind.  They use evidence to determine that.  This will usually be your words.  So number one, shut up.  Its kind of pointless talking about this stuff in most cases since people convict themselves with their own statements almost all the time.


Anyways, it is quite possible that having spore prints and cultivation materials could form a signifigant portion of the evidence of intent.  I would like to say that these alone will not compri9se sufficient evidence to convict you in the abstract, but that situation would never really happen.  People talk, people have other drugs in the house, people have stuff on their computer, people's friends talk, et cet.



If you had that stuff you could certainly be arrested and indicted.  While the generic law that just punishes intent to cultivate wouldn't, as far as I know, be satisfied by only the evidence you posit, that doesn't mean having that stuff won't get you convicted as their is ALWAYS other eivdnece. 


Basically, yeah, you are right to worry, in practical terms finding that stuff could get your ass convicted given the other evidence they are sure to get (or you or your friends will give them willingly).



Well, I'm in cali, but I didn't want to say it because of the mods:rolleyes:. The spores are perfectly legal (found and printed from a native species) and I just want it for microscopy purposes. I have no drugs in my house, and I don't intend to (shocker, I know). I just want to know how much trouble I'd get in if I had a legit grow and then a spore print that's just sitting in a baggie somewhere. I know that my intent is not to grow, but would a judge view it that way? Thanks.

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InvisibleGreen_T
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Re: WTF is Intent? [Re: Roger Fudd]
    #10323877 - 05/11/09 07:16 PM (15 years, 11 days ago)

The more doubt you can plant, the less likely a conviction will be (if it ever comes to that).

It is like the difference between keeping ziplock bags near your weed, or in the kitchen like everyone else. If you have ziplock bags next to your bud, dealing (as opposed to grocery use) is assumed. If they are in your kitchen, the prosecutor has a harder case.


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"I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man" - Thomas Jefferson

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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: WTF is Intent? [Re: Green_T]
    #10323921 - 05/11/09 07:27 PM (15 years, 11 days ago)

How would they know what kind of spore print it was? What are they going to do, grow out all spore prints they find and see if they contain anything illegal? No, they will test the mycellium and any finished shrooms and if they come up clean they drop the whole case. In theory they could charge but it's not going to happen unless the person confessed or had the prints labeled.


--------------------
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InvisibleRoger Fudd
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Re: WTF is Intent? [Re: Stonehenge]
    #10324397 - 05/11/09 09:24 PM (15 years, 11 days ago)

Right, good info from both of you. Thanks a lot. Mods, you can close this thread if you want, I got all the info I need.

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: WTF is Intent? [Re: Roger Fudd]
    #10324471 - 05/11/09 09:37 PM (15 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
How would they know what kind of spore print it was? What are they going to do, grow out all spore prints they find and see if they contain anything illegal? No, they will test the mycellium and any finished shrooms and if they come up clean they drop the whole case. In theory they could charge but it's not going to happen unless the person confessed or had the prints labeled.






I assume the usual way is to ask the person and then have them incriminate themselves, which is better than just knowing what it is anyways.  Another good reason to not talk.
Quote:

Roger Fudd said:
Well, I'm in cali, but I didn't want to say it because of the mods:rolleyes:. The spores are perfectly legal (found and printed from a native species) and I just want it for microscopy purposes. I have no drugs in my house, and I don't intend to (shocker, I know). I just want to know how much trouble I'd get in if I had a legit grow and then a spore print that's just sitting in a baggie somewhere. I know that my intent is not to grow, but would a judge view it that way? Thanks.






Well I'd say if the only evidence they had was spore prints and growing supplies it would be insufficient evidence, but I'm not confident in that- it very well might be.  What the prosecution would likely do if they were motivated and you wouldn't talk (at all) is to find some evidence you do or intend to cultivate.  If you had other mushrooms growing or they could find information on your computer I would think that would be enough to sustain a conviction (and really when your facing many years in jail its not that comforting to think you'll only get some bail money lost and maybe a few days in jail at best till the case is disposed of).


If you kept the prints well seperated from growing materials it would make it harder.  Even harder if the growing materials don't appear to be such, i.e. they aren't stored together.  Buy some flower seeds for a buck and keep them with any gardening type materials and print out a canning guide if you have jars.  Keep everythign seperate.


And like stonhenge suggests, if you can create doubt as to what the spores are, that's best.



As for what you'd face, you could look it up or search, but likely its going to be many years.  In at least one state the attempt (which includes intent if you have spores or something- you don't need to actually do anything accept have something to do it or have instructions or something) alone is a two year mandatory minimum with higher penalties if they can prove you would have attempted to grow certain masses of drug.  Its going to be more than you'd reasonably think a rational country with a decent legal system would ever dream of imposing.  Basically you are the same as an MDMA lab in the law's eyes usually.



The number one rule is to not talk, at all, ever.  If you seperate items and don't make it easy on them and don't create stupid situations where your residence will be searched its all the better.


To try to limit any searches, keep the sprores in a small locked or difficult to access container.  There are many cases, some you can find on these boards, where folks have loud music or are accused of taking stopsigns or something and the cops barge in without a warrant.  If you have the spores in a tiny container that is opaque it will limit its admisability as they can't claim they were searching for whatever they needed to find in that small container (i.e. report of someone having a gun and they barge in, they can't claim they saw anything in plain view and they can't claim a tiny container could have held a gun).  This can be the difference between an admissable search and you walking it would seem.


Even if the cops barge in illegally it can help to have something in a tiny opaque container that couldn't hold a weapon.  If they just rumage through your stuff they'll need to plausibly justify they were looking for a weapon, foreclose that option.

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InvisibleRoger Fudd
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Re: WTF is Intent? [Re: johnm214]
    #10328576 - 05/12/09 05:59 PM (15 years, 10 days ago)

Ok ,thanks for the info.

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Offline79towncar
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Re: WTF is Intent? [Re: Roger Fudd]
    #10337045 - 05/14/09 10:15 AM (15 years, 8 days ago)

In the North East they have a charge that most people get. It's manufacture/dispense/distribute. Alot of times the penalties are the same for either one. But intent is not hard to prove. If they find illegal spores and growing equipment then they can probably prove you had intent to grow. They would have to prove in court that the spores were in fact illegal in the 1st place. So even if you had a good lawyer the fact would be that illegal spores were found in your possession. You would be better off just not telling them what the spore print was. Don't make a statement at all until you talk to an attorney. Then see what they say. You could probably just say you took a print off a random species of mushroom outside and did not know it was illegal. But that probably would be hard to prove. Just say nothing lawyer up and see what happens in court.

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InvisibleRoger Fudd
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Re: WTF is Intent? [Re: 79towncar]
    #10338849 - 05/14/09 04:42 PM (15 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

79towncar said:
In the North East they have a charge that most people get. It's manufacture/dispense/distribute. Alot of times the penalties are the same for either one. But intent is not hard to prove. If they find illegal spores and growing equipment then they can probably prove you had intent to grow. They would have to prove in court that the spores were in fact illegal in the 1st place. So even if you had a good lawyer the fact would be that illegal spores were found in your possession. You would be better off just not telling them what the spore print was. Don't make a statement at all until you talk to an attorney. Then see what they say. You could probably just say you took a print off a random species of mushroom outside and did not know it was illegal. But that probably would be hard to prove. Just say nothing lawyer up and see what happens in court.



The spores aren't illegal if there is no intent to cultivate. I'm not in the NE, I'm in Cali. I'll defiantly not tell anyone what it is.

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