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OfflineEllis Dee
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Will GOP victory equate to legislative success?
    #1029752 - 11/06/02 07:32 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

This year I made my donations and lent my support with two legislativew goals in mind. The first being the so called assault weapons ban sunset in 2004 and the second being the ban on partial birth abortion, with the side goal of the appointment of the confirmation of conserative pro-life judges. While the GOP now has a slim majority once again in both the house and senate I wonder if the conservatives have enough stomach to allow the AW ban to sunset while the president promises to sign it and if the dems use all their power in the senate to block the PBA ban. Lets discuss these issues here.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Will GOP victory equate to legislative success? [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1030113 - 11/06/02 09:15 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

I'm just pissed that I can't own a surface to air missle launcher.

Why would anyone need assault rifles?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

Edited by Phluck (11/06/02 09:16 PM)

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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: Will GOP victory equate to legislative success? [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1030139 - 11/06/02 09:22 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

with so much fucked up shit happening in the world right now, how can you only be thinking about owning an assault rifle and conservative judges? that scares the hellllllllllllllll out of me.

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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Will GOP victory equate to legislative success? [Re: Phluck]
    #1030164 - 11/06/02 09:26 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

IMHO, there is no better platform of highly mobile firepower available to civilians. I've been wanting to get an M1A anyway and they're not afected by the AW ban. The AW ban also banned selling new manufacture mags and clips with more than a 10 round capacity which is really what pissed me off the most about it. Thumbhole stocks and calling your flash suppressor a recoil disimpator or some other crap are just technicalities. But the AW ban didn't ban assault weapons, it dealt only with ban looking things on semi-auto rifles and regular capacity mags. By definition an assault weapon is fully automatic, and those were controled under Reagan.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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Anonymous

Re: Will GOP victory equate to legislative success? [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1030176 - 11/06/02 09:29 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Got no problems with abortions or semi-auto guns of any shape.

I am truley CONSERVATIVE, not selectively.

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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Will GOP victory equate to legislative success? [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1030192 - 11/06/02 09:33 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Oh.

I'm still confused.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Will GOP victory equate to legislative success? [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #1030197 - 11/06/02 09:34 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

I don't know what you mean. We've got good anti-terror leadership in the White House. We're ridding the world of terrorists one step at a time. The economy is strong, people are spending lots and not trying to conserve what they have like they would if it was weak. Go to some of the places that are supposed to be reeling by unemployment and you'll see the medium priced resturaunts are packed. Financial contributions are back to normal levels. The overall economy is healthy, except for the 'regular' international trade imbalance.

Allowing the AW ban to die is important to me. First thing I'll do after it dies is get a new Glock 17 with 15 regular capacity mags for 20 bucks each, the mags now cost $100 bucks each due to the ban on new ones.

Conservative judges are exremely important. There is a judicial crisis due to the liberals blocking all conservatives for the simple reason that they're not activists, but strict constitutionalists. With conservative judges in office we can begin to overturn some of these bad judicial decisions.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: Will GOP victory equate to legislative success? [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1030243 - 11/06/02 09:46 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

** We've got good anti-terror leadership in the White House**
that's partly what i'm talking about. that great leadership is still bombing the hell out of the afghan population, is about to kill off several hundred or even thousand more iraqis, and will probably do the same to much of colombia, the central pacific, and africa. justified, you might say, in the wake of "9/11," but there are very simple changes in the way the united states goverment deals with the rest of the world that can prevent it from being pissed the fuck off at us enough to do something like that. and you might not care about all those people after all, you've only ever seen one of them on TV but they deserve, if nothing else, a little peace of mind every once in a while while they make their meager livings.
as to the rest of your post, the us economy is not an indicator of the level of suffering in the world, in fact, if anything it is inverselely proportional.

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Offlineehud
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Re: Will GOP victory equate to legislative success? [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #1032823 - 11/07/02 02:10 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

thing is, the US is alot less war like than alot of other countries out there. Just be glad we dont have a Reble dictator trying to control Minesota. The reason countries have a problem with our military is because we are strong and precise. The countries we are at war with have no chance of winning so that just pisses them off. I dont blame them, but I would rather have it this way where America stands up and kicks butt then turning around while countries violate human rights.

Boo on PBA and I dont really care about AW.

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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: Will GOP victory equate to legislative success? [Re: ehud]
    #1033242 - 11/07/02 04:19 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

whether the US is more or less warlike than other countries is not really what is concerning to me except when considering the possibility of another country invading the US which as you said would be an impossible venture. i mean, the situation which you are describing doesn't really exist in the real world. the reason people (i'm not talking about countries, i.e. governments which almost invariably have different views than the general populace) are pissed off is the fact that the united states government believes that it can interfere with the internal affairs of any region of the world for whatever reason it deems necessary and by whatever means it sees fit. that is not something i can condone. examples are readily abundant: iraq, cuba, afghanistan, east timor, nicaragua, colombia, el salvador, chile, bolivia, somalia, hawaii, phillipines, guam, korea, vietnam, hell even the united states. in all of these cases, the us governments desires to expand the influence of US business took precendence over the lives and livelyhoods of a foreign (or native, non-white) population. i can provide details on any of these cases if you wish.
as to the claim that the united states intervenes on the behalf of human rights, look at the above cases to see that the us government has no problems with the human rights violations occurring in other countries if the regime in power is friendly to US interests. alleged human rights violations are only mentioned in cases of non-compliance of foreign governments with the wishes of the us.

Edited by ChuangTzu (11/07/02 04:21 PM)

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Anonymous

Re: Will GOP victory equate to legislative success? [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #1033246 - 11/07/02 04:21 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Assault weapons are fun. Abortions are fun. Let's shoot the babies before they are fully out of the womb.

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InvisibleEvolving
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Registered: 10/01/02
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Re: Will GOP victory equate to legislative success? [Re: Anonymous]
    #1033253 - 11/07/02 04:23 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Guns can hurt innocent people. I think it's more fun to stop the baby before it's all the way out, stick a hollow tube in the base of it's skull, scramble it's brains, and then suck them out. That way no innocent person gets hurt... right?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

Edited by Evolving (11/07/02 04:26 PM)

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Offlineehud
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Re: Will GOP victory equate to legislative success? [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #1033637 - 11/07/02 07:33 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

"possibility of another country invading the US which as you said would be an impossible venture."

I didn't really say that, and we were invaded on 9/11. I wouldn't say it is impossible ifact I would say it is almost def going to happen again.

As to your list of countries.... I have a question. Do you think the US should never use military power to help a country out? In alot of the situations listed it is because of the US that people are better off then they would be without our help. Korea they asked for our help and we protected them. Chili kept thier country together too I have been there, and it is a very Pro-American enviroment. Afaganastan women can show thier face in public, and young girls can now go to school. Would the world be a better place if the US did not exist? I would have to say NO. We just want the rest of the world to get the same chance of success that americans get. I think that is possible if there is not a King or dictator preventing you from ever succeeding.

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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: Will GOP victory equate to legislative success? [Re: ehud]
    #1034338 - 11/07/02 11:08 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

**Do you think the US should never use military power to help a country out?**
help a country out? the us government gave money to saddam to buy chemical weapons to use on iran. who was that helping?
**Korea they asked for our help and we protected them.**
who in korea asked for "our" help except the elite with ties to US business?
**Chili kept thier country together too I have been there, and it is a very Pro-American enviroment.**
salvador allende got elected president of chile in what was deemed by international monitors to be a fair election. despite this, the us became concerned that he might not be friendly to foreign (US) corporations in the region and absolutely could not accept that. for 3 years, the us funded a junta headed by Gen. pinochet which finally took power in 1973 (incidentally on 9/11). it ruled until 1990. during that time, it killed over 3,000 people and tortured thousands more. what do you mean by "chile kept their country together?" pinochet was arrested and tried for crimes against humanity some years after he stepped down. during his entire time as dictator, he was supported by the us government. last i heard of this guy he was arrested by the world court on extradition requests from 4 or 5 countries for human rights abuses (including the said 3,000+ death-squad style killings)
about afghanistan, the current regime is not much better than the taliban, they are a radical islamic regime as well, supporting such things as the cutting off of hands for stealing food.
**Would the world be a better place if the US did not exist?**
who the fuck can know that?
**We just want the rest of the world to get the same chance of success that americans get.**
that's noble, but the people who RUN this country could care less.

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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Will GOP victory equate to legislative success? [Re: ehud]
    #1034461 - 11/07/02 11:36 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

we were invaded on 9/11.

eh?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: Will GOP victory equate to legislative success? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1036639 - 11/08/02 02:41 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

**we were invaded on 9/11. **

yeah, i just told you why. and even if it had been completely out of the blue and random that still wouldn't give the US government license to blow up strategic parts of the world for it's own monetary advancement.

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OfflinePope Ife
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Re: Will GOP victory equate to legislative success? [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1036941 - 11/08/02 03:58 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Dude, im really pissy these past few days. What could be worse than a privatized gov't? *shudders* Yes, no matter how much bush tries to sell this war to us, it is a sham. Yes, saddam is a bastard, well so is bush. Saddam may have weapons, and so does bush. and bush has used them in the last year, against the innocent of Afghanistan, so that he could put in a puppet regime and his corporations could have an oil pipeline.. bush cares about 1 thing: money. oil= money for bush's administration which is comprised of CEOs, and for the generous doners to his campaign. Im sorry im off topic. Allow me to ramble further. Abortion sucks, agreed, but is necessary for those who arent ready or are too poor to raise a child. There are enough starving children in the world. You have no right to take this right from a woman. GUNS KILL PEOPLE. And more often the people killed are innocent than they are criminals. America needs to get off its obsession w/violence.

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InvisibleEvolving
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Registered: 10/01/02
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Re: Will GOP victory equate to legislative success? [Re: Pope Ife]
    #1037056 - 11/08/02 04:34 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

In reply to:

GUNS KILL PEOPLE.



Guns are inanimate objects. A gun will no more kill a person by itself that than a baseball bat. Place a loaded firearm on your living room table. Leave it there for a year. I guarantee that if no one touches it, no one will be killed by it. But take guns away from private citizens, put them in the hands of people following government orders and what do you have? Look at the history of the twentieth century, GOVERNMENTS and their agents wielding guns killed record numbers of individuals. Yet what is the inane solution to gun violence? Why, take guns out of the hands of private citizens and only let governments have them. (Never mind the idea that criminals will NOT turn in their weapons, that the law abiding will be left defenseless) This is naive, pure and simple, a prescription for tyranny.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Invisiblecarbonhoots
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Loc: BC Canada
Re: Will GOP victory equate to legislative success? [Re: Evolving]
    #1037254 - 11/08/02 06:08 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

That's so funny. This attitude is so unique to America. In Canada, we don't have guns like you do in the states. The government hasn't taken over yet...

I've always thought protection from tyranny hinged on democracy. Have any democratic countries taken away their citizens guns and then imposed a police state? Quite the contrary. Americans have more guns per citizen of any democratic country, and it also most closely resembles a police state out of the democratic countries.

Europe has even more stringent rules about guns than Canada. Are they living in a police state?

Guns make it easy to kill. Not having a gun reduces spontaneous murders. By the time you figure out another way to kill, you've cooled down. People make mistakes with guns, mistakes with guns kill. If people kill people, and the number of guns in a population has nothing to do with it, why are American murder rates so much higher than other democratic country?

Just my two cents.





--------------------
  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES

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InvisibleEvolving
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Registered: 10/01/02
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Re: Will GOP victory equate to legislative success? [Re: carbonhoots]
    #1037328 - 11/08/02 06:57 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

In reply to:

I've always thought protection from tyranny hinged on democracy.



You thought wrong. Democracy is only a means of decision making, it is no guarantee of liberty. An unfettered democracy is nothing more than tyranny of the majority. If the U.S. was a pure democracy and the majority of people voted to execute all people of African descent there would be nothing (legally) from stopping the government from exercising the will of the majority.

In reply to:

Have any democratic countries taken away their citizens guns and then imposed a police state?



Yes, Adolph Hitler was democratically elected. Governments kill more people that private criminal activity.

In reply to:

Europe has even more stringent rules about guns than Canada. Are they living in a police state?



A great many of them were under the control of one until the U.S. liberated them. Remember Nazi Germany? Just because a country does not currently have a police state is not an argument that one could not come into being. Just because someone has not crashed their automobile, does this mean he shouldn't carry auto insurance?

In reply to:

Guns make it easy to kill. Not having a gun reduces spontaneous murders. By the time you figure out another way to kill, you've cooled down. People make mistakes with guns, mistakes with guns kill.



Cars make it easy to kill. Not having a car reduces spontaneous murders. By the time you figure out another way to kill, you've cooled down. People make mistakes with cars, mistakes with cars kill.

In reply to:

If people kill people, and the number of guns in a population has nothing to do with it, why are American murder rates so much higher than other democratic country?



Why are Swiss murder rates lower than other European countries which control guns?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Invisiblecarbonhoots
old hand

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Loc: BC Canada
Re: Will GOP victory equate to legislative success? [Re: Evolving]
    #1037463 - 11/08/02 07:59 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

So intrenched is this opinion!

What's the deal with switzerland? They have no gun control? Hmm.

Well, I'm sure we just sound ridiculous to each other anyways. Let's just peacfully go about our lives. I'm happy
to know I have a ten times lesser chance of being shot in MY country. I'll change my tune when the government takes over.
I'm willing to risk it. Course, there's always the chance someone may smuggle a car on board a plane I'm in or into my classroom. Then, I'll probably wish that I was shot in the head, (quicker death, less suffering than getting run over.)

I noticed you had no reply to America most resembling a police state than other democratic countries. Normally I would'nt pick at this, but you seem to have a reply to everything...does this mean that massive gun ownership in the USA hasn't even managed to stop the encrochment of tyrany? If that's so, (and it cerainly appears to be), what advantage is there to massive gun owership? The main point of the gunners is 'protection against tyranny'. They are not doing a very good job. Americans generally have less rights than Europeans, especially in drug matters, but even political opinion (remember McCarthy?) and racial matters.






--------------------
  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES

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Anonymous

Re: Will GOP victory equate to legislative success? [Re: carbonhoots]
    #1037706 - 11/08/02 10:00 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

young and gifted... hmmmm


at what?

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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
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Re: Will GOP victory equate to legislative success? [Re: carbonhoots]
    #1037738 - 11/08/02 10:11 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

In reply to:

So intrenched is this opinion!



Yes, I believe in freedom. I'm sorry that you don't.

In reply to:

What's the deal with switzerland? They have no gun control?



Guns are in abundance in Switzerland, crime isn't. You cannot claim that a higher rate of gun ownership is a cause of higher crime.

In reply to:

I noticed you had no reply to America most resembling a police state than other democratic countries.... Americans generally have less rights than Europeans, especially in drug matters, but even political opinion (remember McCarthy?) and racial matters.



Sorry to disappoint you but dinner was on the table. Freedom of speech (political opinion) is more widely protected in the U.S. than quite a few other countries. For instance, many European countries don't allow the publication of certain books. How's that for freedom? The U.S. has more Economic freedom than the majority of the countries in the world (but that doesn't count to socialists). For example, I've read of an English vendor being charged for selling items in pounds instead of kilos (one of those pesky EU implementation programs). Of course, we also have greater liberty of owning firearms (but of course, again, that doesn't count as a freedom in little leftist minds). What laws are there that you consider racist in the U.S.?

In reply to:

Normally I would'nt pick at this, but you seem to have a reply to everything...does this mean that massive gun ownership in the USA hasn't even managed to stop the encrochment of tyrany? If that's so, (and it cerainly appears to be), what advantage is there to massive gun owership? The main point of the gunners is 'protection against tyranny'. They are not doing a very good job.



Do you insinuate that the first thing the people should do when there is an encroachment on their liberties is engage in an armed revolt? When there are still options open, you should attempt to exercise them. An armed populace is the last line of defense. Is that concept so hard to grasp? But more basically, it is a right, regardless of the need or any other justification.

The difference between statists and those who believe in freedom is this. I do not exist at the pleasure of the state. I am not a means to the ends of my fellow man. The state exists to secure our rights. Socialists believe implicitly (or explicitly) that the individual can be sacrificed to the desires of the collective. They believe that they are better able to decide how individuals should live their lives, that they have some superior knowledge about the proper society. I have no such illusions, I have no such desires to control my fellow man. I do not have the right to take away your means to defense, or even your hobby of gun ownership if it brings you pleasure. You do not have to justify the desire to exercise you rights to me.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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OfflineEchoVortex
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Registered: 02/06/02
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Last seen: 15 years, 5 months
Re: Will GOP victory equate to legislative success? [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1037919 - 11/08/02 11:25 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Dear Carbonhoots, Chuang Tzu, et al:

You have a better chance of teaching macadamia nuts to perform synchronized swimming than you do of convincing this crew that there is anything at all wrong with allowing practically anybody to own practically any weapon in existence. It doesn't matter how many schoolchildren get gunned down by lunatics with criminal records who were allowed to buy guns ANYWAY, it doesn't matter how many copycat snipers start mowing people down in the middle of amber waves of grain, it doesn't matter that guns or no guns the government could use its fighters and bombers and tanks and special forces operatives and weapons of mass destruction to bring about tyranny if that's what it wanted (or better yet, why not just exploit the seemingly limitless gullibility and susceptibility to suggestion of the American people to make them THINK they're free when in fact they're not?)--it JUST DOESN'T MATTER.

Why not just go grab those macadamia nuts and call it a day?

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Will GOP victory equate to legislative success? [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1038096 - 11/09/02 01:13 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Amen Echo.

There is the real world and then there is the world that evolving and his buddies occupy. And never the twain shall meet.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Anonymous

Re: Will GOP victory equate to legislative success? [Re: Evolving]
    #1039681 - 11/09/02 09:44 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

The difference between statists and those who believe in freedom is this. I do not exist at the pleasure of the state. I am not a means to the ends of my fellow man. The state exists to secure our rights. Socialists believe implicitly (or explicitly) that the individual can be sacrificed to the desires of the collective. They believe that they are better able to decide how individuals should live their lives, that they have some superior knowledge about the proper society. I have no such illusions, I have no such desires to control my fellow man. I do not have the right to take away your means to defense, or even your hobby of gun ownership if it brings you pleasure. You do not have to justify the desire to exercise you rights to me.

Arguably one of the best paragraphs I have read since I became a member of the Shroomery.

Well said.

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InvisibleBuddha5254
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Re: Will GOP victory equate to legislative success? [Re: ]
    #1039820 - 11/09/02 10:46 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Canada has more guns per capita than the US. They are just like us except they dont kill eachother with them. They see the same movies, play the same video games, and watch the same lame tv shows. Something terribly wrong has happened in america

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Offlineshogun221
God in the Wired

Registered: 09/27/02
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Re: Will GOP victory equate to legislative success? [Re: Buddha5254]
    #1045213 - 11/11/02 11:27 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Spare me this "conservatives will protect the constitution" bs. Have you ever actually read the patriot act? Can you fathom the extent of the damage this act inflicts upon the constitution? The detainment of US citizens the right to an attorney or knowing what they are charged with, the ability for the CIA or FBI to spy on innocent households, do you consider this protecting the constitution? Oh, sure the republicans are big on "rights", whenever it comes to the right to kill (guns), the right for big business to do whatever they want, and the freedom of relig--I mean Christianity (homosexuality, abortion, drugs, christian prayer in schools). What this administration is doing behind closed doors makes me ashamed of my country, and it pains me that in the light of such heroism displayed by the citizens of america, that our "elected" officials are doing little more than capitalizing on our misfortune to pass their own twisted agenda. This is truly a sad time for America...


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"A conservative is a man with two perfectly good legs who, however, has never learned how to walk forward. ~FDR"

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Anonymous

Re: Will GOP victory equate to legislative success? [Re: shogun221]
    #1047919 - 11/12/02 09:27 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

The twisted agenda you refer to is the will of the AMERICAN people(majority).  These laws you fear so much are imposed by ELECTED officials, and approved by elected officials. They were ELECTED by free individuals.

The patriot act is very scary when taken out of context.  When viewed within context it causes me little fear.  It is about fighting TERRORISM within the borders of the USA. 

Personally, I don't know a single person who has dissapeared, and I know alot of subversives, anti-establishments, and MUSLIMS.  None have been carried away in the night or day. Not to mention the long line of DRUGGIES.

What is your problem with having EMAILS READ, unless you are a terrorist? 

The government has acted entirely responsible in my mind.  Do you think it would have been difficult to turn this country into a police state on 9/12/01?  They could have done DOOR TO DOOR searches with very little resistence from the MAJORITY of AMERICANS.

Owning a GUN does not give you a right to KILL. Drug laws have nothing to do with Christianity.  Abortion is illegal to make illegal, it can only be regulated more strictly.  The pledge of alligance includes GOD, not JESUS.  You are free to not pray in school, or pray in school regardless of what the GOVERNMENT MAKES into law, you are free to pray to what ever you believe in.

Behind closed doors is an interesting assumption.  Seeing as YOU have read the legislation you speak of, and it was applied by the NORMAL system in the USA.

The patriot act PROTECTS your FREEDOM.  Unless you are a terrorist, or know some.  Then it violates the hell out of your rights that you don't BEILIEVE in anyways. :grin:

You are pleading for the rights of people that don't believe in the rights you are trying to protect for them. :mad:

Those who want to destroy AMERICA, don't like the CONSTITUTION, so why should they be protected by it? 

If you are suggesting that the elected officials of this country are not citizens themselves, would somehow impose laws that they themselves will have to live under, to further some imaginary agenda that isn't FIGHTING TERRORISTS, you are VERY MISGUIDED. :confused:

When they start calling things that are not Terrorism, terrorism, I will be one of MANY GUN OWNERS fighting to take back AMERICA.  We ofcourse will be USING all you NON-GUN OWNING FOLKS as shields.  :tongue:


Remember if you don't like the way your politicians behave, and enough people agree with you, they won't be politicians anymore. :wink:
 

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Anonymous

Re: Will GOP victory equate to legislative success? [Re: carbonhoots]
    #1047964 - 11/12/02 09:40 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

How does AMERICA resemble a POLICE STATE?

I am free to do as I please as long as I don't violate anothers RIGHTS, and then they have to catch me without violating my rights. Unless of course I am a Terrorist, then I have NO RIGHTS, because I don't believe in them anyways!!!!

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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Will GOP victory equate to legislative success? [Re: ]
    #1048214 - 11/12/02 11:56 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Read the thread about the guy looking at 7 years hard time for growing fucking fungi in his basement.

Sounds pretty police state to me.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Anonymous

Re: Will GOP victory equate to legislative success? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1048337 - 11/13/02 12:44 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Police state would mean the cops could have entered his home without any reason for being there.  I read the article did you.  The idiot got in a fight with his girlfriend, which brought the cops to his home LEGALLY, and the girlfriend told the cops where to look once they were in the house.

The cops didn't just come by for a door to door random search without prior information or reason for being in his home.  They were legally in his home and saw the DRUGS, which are illegal.  He was arrested for breaking the LAW. 

I don't like drug laws either, but my dislike for them does not make me hate the USA or give me even the most remote rationale for calling the USA a police state. :confused: 

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Invisiblecarbonhoots
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Re: Will GOP victory equate to legislative success? [Re: ]
    #1048485 - 11/13/02 01:53 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Well, it most resembles a police state don't it? No. It's not a police state. But compared to Europe or even Canada?

You gotta admit, it's a little bit like a police state. Especially for some...who...fit the profile...you know?

Didn't the police in the USA use military technology to spy heat trails in order to look for marijuana grow-ops? That's kinda policey.

Or all this, "piss in a cup, or you DON'T GET A JOB" stuff. Isn't that intrusive, even though it's done by the private sector mostly, at the bidding of "insuance" companies...

police state usa


--------------------
  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES

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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Will GOP victory equate to legislative success? [Re: ]
    #1048507 - 11/13/02 02:06 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

America is a police state. I've been raided by SWAT with NO WARRENT. This kind of shit happens every day.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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Invisiblecarbonhoots
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Re: Will GOP victory equate to legislative success? [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1048512 - 11/13/02 02:09 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Raided like in the movies? Guys in black suits yelling in your face and the like?


--------------------
  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES

Edited by carbonhoots (11/13/02 02:12 AM)

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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Will GOP victory equate to legislative success? [Re: carbonhoots]
    #1048534 - 11/13/02 02:23 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

More like there's a banging on my door waking me up for 2 minutes and I get up and finally answer it and the SWAT guys are there dressed in black and a guy with a battering ram is about to break in my dor and a guy with a remingtom marine magnum 12 guage has his shorgun pointed right at my chest. They pull me outside throw me down, handcuff me and drag me back inside while the other SWAT guys are running from room to room with their shotguns yelling "clear". It was real and it sucks. If anything like that is ever going to happen again I'll kill them. And I'm not kidding, they'll be dead adn so will I after they kill me, but I'll take some of them with me.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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Offlinehongomon
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Re: Will GOP victory equate to legislative success? [Re: ]
    #1048740 - 11/13/02 06:33 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Teonan: "I am free to do as I please as long as I don't violate anothers RIGHTS, and then they have to catch me without violating my rights. Unless of course I am a Terrorist, then I have NO RIGHTS, because I don't believe in them anyways!!!!"

I'm confused.

If I have rights unless I'm a "terrorist", do I volunteer this information about myself to make the rights forfeiture less complicated? If I don't, do I have rights until proven to be a "terrorist"? According to the Homeboys Security Act, all it takes to lose these rights is--what? I don't even really know. Suspicion by--who? I just don't know. Do you?

And you know, I'm STILL waiting for a nice, clear example of what terrorism is! Sure, we can find examples that leave less room for doubt, but let's be concise and comprehensive. I say it can't be done without incriminating the U.S. government. And, I say that's the reason it hasn't been done. What pains me is that we've still allowed this "war" to continue, even though "terror" and "terrorism" have been left so vague and open-ended. We're being told, "We'll let you know when we find it." Can we get more circular?

And by the way, you are free to grow marijuana or mushrooms??? Wow.

And where did you get your example of what a police state is? Since when did the police have to start banging down doors? A lot of the types of surveilance used by police to enforce the immoral drug laws are different only in degrees from banging down doors. THEY SPY ON THE GENERAL PUBLIC. In my homestate, it's helicopters, for one. They use infrared (or did that one get shot down?). They moniter purchases of certain items--HPS light systems, etc. They check power bills. Sounds like a police state to me. Watcha gonna do.

"What is your problem with having EMAILS READ, unless you are a terrorist? "

I'm gonna shout this one: "THE GOVERNMENT HAS NO FUCKING BUSINESS READING OUR E-MAILS, PERIOD!!"

I had a few other things to say, but I gotta go. One last thing: there exists in society (even a free one) a privileged minority. They're in the saddle. They're the most conservative of conservatives. They exert all kinds of power in conserving their position. They'll do what they can--and they can do a lot--to prevent any social experiment that threatens to knock them off the horse. This is my testimony. Amen. Now we may eat.

Please pass the whirled peas

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Anonymous

Re: Will GOP victory equate to legislative success? [Re: carbonhoots]
    #1049292 - 11/13/02 12:35 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Yes carbonhoots, sadly Amerika is a police state. We have lost many many many many rights we used to have. All Federal drug laws are unconstitutional.

The Swat team stuff is no picnic. I have my own stories that I do not tell in public.

If they come to my door they had better prepare to die or kill me. I am ready to go.

And some misguided citizens think the Federal Government is on our side if their political party is in power. I cannot imagine such naive thinking, if one could call it that.

Cheers,

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Anonymous

Re: Will GOP victory equate to legislative success? [Re: hongomon]
    #1049296 - 11/13/02 12:36 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Well said!

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OfflineI_Fart_Blue
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Re: Will GOP victory equate to legislative success? [Re: ]
    #1049347 - 11/13/02 12:53 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

"What is your problem with having EMAILS READ, unless you are a terrorist?"

You can't actually be retarded enough to actually believe this?

Perhaps we should place a government official in everybody's house to make sure they aren't doing anything illegal. They can have somebody to open up all your mail. They can tap all your phones. Infact, they should just place a bug on you to moniter all of your oral conersations. Don't forget a tracking device either. You shouldn't have a problem with this....unless you are a terrorist.


--------------------
"A study of the history of opinion is a necessary preliminary to the emancipation of the mind. I do not know which makes a man more conservative-to know nothing but the present, or nothing but the past." -John Maynard Keynes

Edited by I_Fart_Blue (11/13/02 12:56 PM)

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Anonymous

Re: Will GOP victory equate to legislative success? [Re: carbonhoots]
    #1051282 - 11/14/02 12:20 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

If you work for someone else you are subject to their HIRING policies. Be your own boss or work for likeminded people. This is a free country.

the police use a small hand held thermal imagery devise to spy on the EXTERNAL heat signature from HID lights. They do so not randomly, but after receiving a tip. They also get your electric bill from your power company, after gettting a tip.

Thermal signatures from plants and monitoring them from the AIR(helicopter), does not violate your right to privacy. If they can see it from 300 feet, it is legal for them to do so.

I agree all of these thingas are intrusive, but not like living under a police state.

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Anonymous

Re: Will GOP victory equate to legislative success? [Re: ]
    #1051373 - 11/14/02 12:50 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Where did you get this information?

The United States Supreme Court has ruled that thermal scanning is unconstitutional and requires a warrant. If you know otherwise please post a link.

Thanks,

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Anonymous

Re: Will GOP victory equate to legislative success? [Re: hongomon]
    #1051497 - 11/14/02 01:56 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Operation Green Merchant was found to be unconstitutional. I suggest you look it up.

Most grow ops get busted due to accidental discovery or from someone telling on you. The latter sparks an investigation that might lead to you getting arrested.

Helicopters look for outdoor crops, not indoor. To build a case against an indoor grow op, they use a hand held thermal imagery device that Registers the EXTERNAL heat signature from the HID. The image is taken from outside your home and does not look inside your home. This is simply a product of our own technology. The same technology that allows you to GROW indoors!!!

Terrorism is the use of force or threats to intimidate, esp. as a political policy. Was that so hard to define?

If you are plotting to support the use or actually use terrorism domestically, you are going to be nailed by the patriot act. This is what it is for.

If you are some foreighner and you think America is a terrorist state, then feel free to start your own investigations. If you are an American and you feel uncomfortable about having your emails read, you really don't understand that your government is a representative government.

I am free to do what ever I want within the privacy of my HOME. There are extremely strict rules for the cops to actually USE the information they gather against you. The only thing that has been loosened is the method for gathering Information of a specific type of crime(Terrorism).

Again, if anyone here knows of someone who has been taken away and held , please give me an example. Someone you know specifically!!!


As far as having cops point guns at you, unless they raided the wrong house, they apparently felt the need to come in on RAIL GUN, via a SWAT TEAM. What do you do for a living? A warrant is only needed to actually Convict you of a crime they raided your home for, not to enter your home. There are many instances when the Cops can legally enter your home without a warrant.

I had the swat team come in my home one morning. Machine guns pointed right at my head. Of course they had been in pursuit of a home invader that wound up in our home during his escape from a car accident with a cop that was pursuing him and his three accomplaces. They pointed their guns at all of us, but only the bad guy got arrested. We had drugs in plain view, but the cops didn't give a shit. It was the swat team and Burglary cops, not the NARCOTICS division. They did not search the remainder of the home. they went only where the bad guy had been.

A police state is a government that supresses it's political opposition by means of police. Since the Government of the USA is a democratically elected body bound by a Bill of rights, you CANNOT EVEN REMOTELY CALL IT A POLICE STATE.

We just have the ways and means to have LOTS of police. We have a large diversity of cultures, an excessive amount of freedom, and a percentage of every population doesn't like to play nice. The people of this country are cops, politicians, businessmen, professors, bus drivers, etc.............. We choose to allow our politicians to make laws for us to live by, they cannot be re-elected by making laws we choose not to live by.

If you do Drugs you do something the majority of people who vote, do not want done. Guess what, if you do it carefully, you can grow, manufature, consume, whatever you want within the PRIVACY of your home. IT is EXTREMELY HARD for cops to ARREST you for it. If you choose to sell, or do them in public, your chances of getting arrested INCREASE dramatically, simply because the USA has the WAYS and MEANS to get you. TAX PAYERS PAY BIG DOLLARS to have the largest police forces to enforce the laws they agreed upon as a majority, while still trying to protect the INDIVIDUAL(Bill of RIGHTS).

I am the priveledged minority. I wake up everyday with the ABSOLUTE knowledge that I am more free then any of my ancestors have ever been in history.

I understand your fear of invasion of privacy in regards to wire taps and read emails. As long as you operate under the knowledge that it can only be used against you for being involved in terrorism at some level, it should not bother you. It cannot be used against you for ANYTHING ELSE.

Complaining about the administration is not terrorism. Financing Lobbies against the present administration is not terrorism.

Always remember this government(powerful minority) you refer to was elected by the citizens of the USA. The same citizens that are free to leave the country if it has soured their souls.

Corporations are owned by citizens. Everything in the usa is owned by the citizens,privately. I really don't understand your notion that it is not.

Suspicion is the sum total of all intelligence agencies of the USA, and it's allies. It can be a tip from someone already held, associations with known terrorists, the electrician who notices suspicous crap in your home, or yard. It is all the information they can legally gather about you. Legal in the sense that it has been legislated and approved by the officials YOU and I elect.

If you don't want them spying, find out who voted for it and who voted against it, and do everything you and your likeminded citizens can do to make sure these politicians are held accountable. You find someone who has been held against their will, released, and use their case to challenge the legislation. Guess what, even though the legislation gets legally passed, you still have the power and FREEDOM to fight it all the way up to the supreme court.

I am conservative in the sense that I wan't strict adherence to the Bill of Rights. I am willing to compromise my freedoms when I see the need. Like me choosing to BREAK THE LAW, even though I know it could result in me losing my FREEDOMS. I have enough faith in the remaining protections of the BILL of RIGHTS, to allow them to read my emails for the purpose of catching terrorists, and not fear going to jail for the laws I might break. Why? I don't use force to intimidate or influence the political process within the borders of the USA. I don't have to, I am free to influence the process without violence.

It is only because we are so FREE that terrorists have been able to hide amongst us. This doesn't mean I want to make us less free, but it means I am willing to sacrifice the privacy of my emails for the specific purpose of my government monitoring for TERRORISTS.

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Anonymous

Re: Will GOP victory equate to legislative success? [Re: ]
    #1051533 - 11/14/02 02:18 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

And some misguided citizens think the Federal Government is on our side if their political party is in power. I cannot imagine such naive thinking, if one could call it that




You really have trouble listening. The federal government is a representative government of ALL the citizens of the USA.  If you want something done, alot of people agree with you, you can make it happen.  It doesn't just represent the extremely rich, new or old money.  If it did, you would have no choice in anything that effects your daily life except to live or die at your own hand.  Your possesions would be taken from you, you would be forced into slavery, and subject to every whim I had. :blush: Just kidding, but you hopefully get my point.

You are free to effect change in policy.  You just are not free to use VIOLENCE or FORCE.  Only the collective mass of all citizens can implement policies into laws that will be FORCED upon the citizens of this country, and have them STAY as laws.

If you still think I am Naive, or not thinking for myself. woopdy doo.  I fear my government far less then I fear most!!   

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Anonymous

Re: Will GOP victory equate to legislative success? [Re: ]
    #1051550 - 11/14/02 02:30 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

That is what I said. They can't randomly do it. They have to have a reason(judicially approved) to even look. Usually the result of a tip from someone who rats you out!!! Then they use the imagery and your electric usage to complete the warrant to get into your home.

OPERATION GREEN MERCHANT WAS UNCONSTITUTIONAL on many levels.

The information on the actual camera and it's use was made available via copy from the university of Florida library (federal document) department. It was the document from the DOMESTIC CANNABIS ERADICATION PROGRAM. It is a financial record of expenditures, assets siezed, number of plants eradicted(cultivated and wild). Number of arrests, number of guns confiscated. BLAH BLAH BLAH.

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Anonymous

Re: Will GOP victory equate to legislative success? [Re: ]
    #1051568 - 11/14/02 02:39 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

If using thermal signatures of the plants themselves(via helicopter) on outdoor cultivated plants, they do NOT need a search warrant. They can fly at a minimum legal hieght and take heat samples of everything in your yard that is not REASONABLY HIDDEN.
To use one upon a house to pick up the heat signature of HID LIGHTS that makes it's way through your walls and windows. They NEVER RANDOMLY USE them. They KNOW you are growing and are building the CASE before they enter your home to arrest you.

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Anonymous

Re: Will GOP victory equate to legislative success? [Re: ]
    #1053135 - 11/14/02 04:12 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

"You really have trouble listening. The federal government is a representative government of ALL the citizens of the USA. If you want something done, alot of people agree with you, you can make it happen."


Let's not make this a personal issue.  I do not always have 100% reading comprehension but that is besides the point.  The comment to which you were replying was not directed at you, or even anyone on this forum.  It was a generalization about the people that I associate with in the sphere of politics.

For the most part I agree with you.  I thought you were saying something other than what you were about the HID lights etc.  Thank you for the clarification.

The only minor difference of opinion that we have is that you seem to describe the federal government from a theoretical point of view and I see the practical application to be a bit different.

The idea that the unwashed masses can 'have their collective way' through their duly elected representatives is a bit misleading.  Otherwise we wouldn't have activist judges making law instead of interpreting it.  There are literally thousands of judical opinions that fly in the face of 'the will of the people'.  But that's our system and no system is perfect.

Thanks for the clarifications. :smile:

Cheers, 

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Invisiblecarbonhoots
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Re: Will GOP victory equate to legislative success? [Re: ]
    #1053536 - 11/14/02 06:38 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Well, of course USA is not a police state.

I guess the impression I get is that they are looking. There are massive amounts of cops LOOKING.

By looking, I mean, trying to make criminals out of people. Somehow, I think crime cries out to be discovered. It doesn't have to be sought out so much.

Reading mail, looking through garbage, some of the roadside stops I've been through, are intrusive. It would be nice if cops only followed up leads and dealt with complaints. Not actively, randomly searched citizens.

Your run in with the swat team was cool. Drugs in plain site, no qustions asked? That's another thing about America...what social class are you in? I bet your not a poor black/hispanic from Halrem or Anacosta or whatever? I'm sorry to use this tone. It's just honestly the impression I've gotten of the USA in my Canadian life...

I understand the movie stars in Hollywood are excempt from the drug laws?


--------------------
  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES

Edited by carbonhoots (11/14/02 06:42 PM)

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Offlinehongomon
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Re: Will GOP victory equate to legislative success? [Re: ]
    #1057367 - 11/16/02 01:07 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

I don't have your faith in my government, Teonan. In fact, I don't believe we should have your kind of faith in our government. It's a necessary evil that should be kept on a short leash, and look around--it's looking more and more like the contrary.

I think Mr. Mushrooms said it very well when he said, "...You seem to describe the federal government from a theoretical point of view and I see the practical application to be a bit different."

Yes, IN THEORY they're just regular folks like you and me--they love their country too, etc. But in practice--what the hell? The system is such that it filters out the kind of people you're talking about. Or at least ties them up so that they don't behave the same. I know that sounds like a pessimistic observation, but I don't think it is, I think it's a realistic observation. Puppet on the right, puppet on the left. You think it's all hunky dory? That puts you in a real minority in this forum, because for all the differences here, most posters agree that things aren't going so well.

But back to the Homeboy Security Issue. Can we even discuss terrorism without stepping back a ways? I say the "War on Terror" is bullshit. Not because I don't think there's a chance for more of what we're seeing, but because

1. It has served to further empower the federal government, and further deprive us of basic rights; (In a theoretical world like you propose this might not be so bad, but in a practical world we should be very concerned about turning over so much power to a centralized government.)

and 2. It's a very one-sided, myopic reaction to the problem. It is the hammer-nail approach, to a T. It just isn't possible, as Cheney said, for the conflict to end "only in their complete and utter destruction." It's ridiculous to even suggest it. Who are they ? For every Rashid there's a McVeigh. They aren't unified, they don't have a single agenda. Terrorism isn't an ideology. It's a reaction. Our war on it is like a fire-breathing dragon trying to stamp out its own fires as fast as it starts them. The harder it works to stamp them out, the heavier it breathes. And so it goes.

So today it's e-mails and whatever other kinds of domestic spying. And tomorrow? It won't make it go away, any more than the drug war made drugs go away, so really, what about tomorrow?

Stuff like this, man, this is just too creepy:

"Suspicion is the sum total of all intelligence agencies of the USA, and it's allies. It can be a tip from someone already held, associations with known terrorists, the electrician who notices suspicous crap in your home, or yard. It is all the information they can legally gather about you. Legal in the sense that it has been legislated and approved by the officials YOU and I elect."

Think about what you're saying for a moment! "Legal in the sense..." Agh! Hunky dory, hunky dory. How many times a day do I have to say it before I can believe it too? What the fuck is suspicious crap, anyway? Hmm...terrorists are anti-American...this guy has an "Anti-American" publication in his house...maybe he's a terrorist...I think I'm supposed to report this kind of thing.... I don't know about your electrician, but mine might put these thoughts together. Do I sound paranoid? Obviously I'm thinking extreme scenerio, but the Homeboy Security Act seems to have the fodder for it.

"We choose to allow our politicians to make laws for us to live by, they cannot be re-elected by making laws we choose not to live by."

What do you mean by that?

"I am the priveledged minority. I wake up everyday with the ABSOLUTE knowledge that I am more free then any of my ancestors have ever been in history."

Put it to music.

Edited by hongomon (11/16/02 01:08 AM)

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Anonymous

Re: Will GOP victory equate to legislative success? [Re: hongomon]
    #1057848 - 11/16/02 09:32 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Woah, get down hongomon!

Very nicely put.

I see you have a few beans in your noodle.

Simply put, that was the best post I have read by you, lucid, articulate and above all mentioned me.  :wink:

Cheers, 

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