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Invisiblecarbonhoots
old hand

Registered: 09/11/01
Posts: 1,351
Loc: BC Canada
Re: Will GOP victory equate to legislative success? [Re: Evolving]
    #1037463 - 11/08/02 07:59 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

So intrenched is this opinion!

What's the deal with switzerland? They have no gun control? Hmm.

Well, I'm sure we just sound ridiculous to each other anyways. Let's just peacfully go about our lives. I'm happy
to know I have a ten times lesser chance of being shot in MY country. I'll change my tune when the government takes over.
I'm willing to risk it. Course, there's always the chance someone may smuggle a car on board a plane I'm in or into my classroom. Then, I'll probably wish that I was shot in the head, (quicker death, less suffering than getting run over.)

I noticed you had no reply to America most resembling a police state than other democratic countries. Normally I would'nt pick at this, but you seem to have a reply to everything...does this mean that massive gun ownership in the USA hasn't even managed to stop the encrochment of tyrany? If that's so, (and it cerainly appears to be), what advantage is there to massive gun owership? The main point of the gunners is 'protection against tyranny'. They are not doing a very good job. Americans generally have less rights than Europeans, especially in drug matters, but even political opinion (remember McCarthy?) and racial matters.






--------------------
  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES

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Anonymous

Re: Will GOP victory equate to legislative success? [Re: carbonhoots]
    #1037706 - 11/08/02 10:00 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

young and gifted... hmmmm


at what?

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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Will GOP victory equate to legislative success? [Re: carbonhoots]
    #1037738 - 11/08/02 10:11 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

In reply to:

So intrenched is this opinion!



Yes, I believe in freedom. I'm sorry that you don't.

In reply to:

What's the deal with switzerland? They have no gun control?



Guns are in abundance in Switzerland, crime isn't. You cannot claim that a higher rate of gun ownership is a cause of higher crime.

In reply to:

I noticed you had no reply to America most resembling a police state than other democratic countries.... Americans generally have less rights than Europeans, especially in drug matters, but even political opinion (remember McCarthy?) and racial matters.



Sorry to disappoint you but dinner was on the table. Freedom of speech (political opinion) is more widely protected in the U.S. than quite a few other countries. For instance, many European countries don't allow the publication of certain books. How's that for freedom? The U.S. has more Economic freedom than the majority of the countries in the world (but that doesn't count to socialists). For example, I've read of an English vendor being charged for selling items in pounds instead of kilos (one of those pesky EU implementation programs). Of course, we also have greater liberty of owning firearms (but of course, again, that doesn't count as a freedom in little leftist minds). What laws are there that you consider racist in the U.S.?

In reply to:

Normally I would'nt pick at this, but you seem to have a reply to everything...does this mean that massive gun ownership in the USA hasn't even managed to stop the encrochment of tyrany? If that's so, (and it cerainly appears to be), what advantage is there to massive gun owership? The main point of the gunners is 'protection against tyranny'. They are not doing a very good job.



Do you insinuate that the first thing the people should do when there is an encroachment on their liberties is engage in an armed revolt? When there are still options open, you should attempt to exercise them. An armed populace is the last line of defense. Is that concept so hard to grasp? But more basically, it is a right, regardless of the need or any other justification.

The difference between statists and those who believe in freedom is this. I do not exist at the pleasure of the state. I am not a means to the ends of my fellow man. The state exists to secure our rights. Socialists believe implicitly (or explicitly) that the individual can be sacrificed to the desires of the collective. They believe that they are better able to decide how individuals should live their lives, that they have some superior knowledge about the proper society. I have no such illusions, I have no such desires to control my fellow man. I do not have the right to take away your means to defense, or even your hobby of gun ownership if it brings you pleasure. You do not have to justify the desire to exercise you rights to me.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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OfflineEchoVortex
(hard) member
Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 859
Last seen: 15 years, 5 months
Re: Will GOP victory equate to legislative success? [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1037919 - 11/08/02 11:25 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Dear Carbonhoots, Chuang Tzu, et al:

You have a better chance of teaching macadamia nuts to perform synchronized swimming than you do of convincing this crew that there is anything at all wrong with allowing practically anybody to own practically any weapon in existence. It doesn't matter how many schoolchildren get gunned down by lunatics with criminal records who were allowed to buy guns ANYWAY, it doesn't matter how many copycat snipers start mowing people down in the middle of amber waves of grain, it doesn't matter that guns or no guns the government could use its fighters and bombers and tanks and special forces operatives and weapons of mass destruction to bring about tyranny if that's what it wanted (or better yet, why not just exploit the seemingly limitless gullibility and susceptibility to suggestion of the American people to make them THINK they're free when in fact they're not?)--it JUST DOESN'T MATTER.

Why not just go grab those macadamia nuts and call it a day?

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Will GOP victory equate to legislative success? [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1038096 - 11/09/02 01:13 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Amen Echo.

There is the real world and then there is the world that evolving and his buddies occupy. And never the twain shall meet.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Anonymous

Re: Will GOP victory equate to legislative success? [Re: Evolving]
    #1039681 - 11/09/02 09:44 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

The difference between statists and those who believe in freedom is this. I do not exist at the pleasure of the state. I am not a means to the ends of my fellow man. The state exists to secure our rights. Socialists believe implicitly (or explicitly) that the individual can be sacrificed to the desires of the collective. They believe that they are better able to decide how individuals should live their lives, that they have some superior knowledge about the proper society. I have no such illusions, I have no such desires to control my fellow man. I do not have the right to take away your means to defense, or even your hobby of gun ownership if it brings you pleasure. You do not have to justify the desire to exercise you rights to me.

Arguably one of the best paragraphs I have read since I became a member of the Shroomery.

Well said.

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InvisibleBuddha5254
addict
Registered: 04/22/00
Posts: 532
Re: Will GOP victory equate to legislative success? [Re: ]
    #1039820 - 11/09/02 10:46 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Canada has more guns per capita than the US. They are just like us except they dont kill eachother with them. They see the same movies, play the same video games, and watch the same lame tv shows. Something terribly wrong has happened in america

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Offlineshogun221
God in the Wired

Registered: 09/27/02
Posts: 108
Last seen: 16 years, 6 months
Re: Will GOP victory equate to legislative success? [Re: Buddha5254]
    #1045213 - 11/11/02 11:27 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Spare me this "conservatives will protect the constitution" bs. Have you ever actually read the patriot act? Can you fathom the extent of the damage this act inflicts upon the constitution? The detainment of US citizens the right to an attorney or knowing what they are charged with, the ability for the CIA or FBI to spy on innocent households, do you consider this protecting the constitution? Oh, sure the republicans are big on "rights", whenever it comes to the right to kill (guns), the right for big business to do whatever they want, and the freedom of relig--I mean Christianity (homosexuality, abortion, drugs, christian prayer in schools). What this administration is doing behind closed doors makes me ashamed of my country, and it pains me that in the light of such heroism displayed by the citizens of america, that our "elected" officials are doing little more than capitalizing on our misfortune to pass their own twisted agenda. This is truly a sad time for America...


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"A conservative is a man with two perfectly good legs who, however, has never learned how to walk forward. ~FDR"

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Anonymous

Re: Will GOP victory equate to legislative success? [Re: shogun221]
    #1047919 - 11/12/02 09:27 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

The twisted agenda you refer to is the will of the AMERICAN people(majority).  These laws you fear so much are imposed by ELECTED officials, and approved by elected officials. They were ELECTED by free individuals.

The patriot act is very scary when taken out of context.  When viewed within context it causes me little fear.  It is about fighting TERRORISM within the borders of the USA. 

Personally, I don't know a single person who has dissapeared, and I know alot of subversives, anti-establishments, and MUSLIMS.  None have been carried away in the night or day. Not to mention the long line of DRUGGIES.

What is your problem with having EMAILS READ, unless you are a terrorist? 

The government has acted entirely responsible in my mind.  Do you think it would have been difficult to turn this country into a police state on 9/12/01?  They could have done DOOR TO DOOR searches with very little resistence from the MAJORITY of AMERICANS.

Owning a GUN does not give you a right to KILL. Drug laws have nothing to do with Christianity.  Abortion is illegal to make illegal, it can only be regulated more strictly.  The pledge of alligance includes GOD, not JESUS.  You are free to not pray in school, or pray in school regardless of what the GOVERNMENT MAKES into law, you are free to pray to what ever you believe in.

Behind closed doors is an interesting assumption.  Seeing as YOU have read the legislation you speak of, and it was applied by the NORMAL system in the USA.

The patriot act PROTECTS your FREEDOM.  Unless you are a terrorist, or know some.  Then it violates the hell out of your rights that you don't BEILIEVE in anyways. :grin:

You are pleading for the rights of people that don't believe in the rights you are trying to protect for them. :mad:

Those who want to destroy AMERICA, don't like the CONSTITUTION, so why should they be protected by it? 

If you are suggesting that the elected officials of this country are not citizens themselves, would somehow impose laws that they themselves will have to live under, to further some imaginary agenda that isn't FIGHTING TERRORISTS, you are VERY MISGUIDED. :confused:

When they start calling things that are not Terrorism, terrorism, I will be one of MANY GUN OWNERS fighting to take back AMERICA.  We ofcourse will be USING all you NON-GUN OWNING FOLKS as shields.  :tongue:


Remember if you don't like the way your politicians behave, and enough people agree with you, they won't be politicians anymore. :wink:
 

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Anonymous

Re: Will GOP victory equate to legislative success? [Re: carbonhoots]
    #1047964 - 11/12/02 09:40 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

How does AMERICA resemble a POLICE STATE?

I am free to do as I please as long as I don't violate anothers RIGHTS, and then they have to catch me without violating my rights. Unless of course I am a Terrorist, then I have NO RIGHTS, because I don't believe in them anyways!!!!

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Will GOP victory equate to legislative success? [Re: ]
    #1048214 - 11/12/02 11:56 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Read the thread about the guy looking at 7 years hard time for growing fucking fungi in his basement.

Sounds pretty police state to me.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Anonymous

Re: Will GOP victory equate to legislative success? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1048337 - 11/13/02 12:44 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Police state would mean the cops could have entered his home without any reason for being there.  I read the article did you.  The idiot got in a fight with his girlfriend, which brought the cops to his home LEGALLY, and the girlfriend told the cops where to look once they were in the house.

The cops didn't just come by for a door to door random search without prior information or reason for being in his home.  They were legally in his home and saw the DRUGS, which are illegal.  He was arrested for breaking the LAW. 

I don't like drug laws either, but my dislike for them does not make me hate the USA or give me even the most remote rationale for calling the USA a police state. :confused: 

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Invisiblecarbonhoots
old hand

Registered: 09/11/01
Posts: 1,351
Loc: BC Canada
Re: Will GOP victory equate to legislative success? [Re: ]
    #1048485 - 11/13/02 01:53 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Well, it most resembles a police state don't it? No. It's not a police state. But compared to Europe or even Canada?

You gotta admit, it's a little bit like a police state. Especially for some...who...fit the profile...you know?

Didn't the police in the USA use military technology to spy heat trails in order to look for marijuana grow-ops? That's kinda policey.

Or all this, "piss in a cup, or you DON'T GET A JOB" stuff. Isn't that intrusive, even though it's done by the private sector mostly, at the bidding of "insuance" companies...

police state usa


--------------------
  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES

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OfflineEllis Dee
Archangel
Male User Gallery

Registered: 06/29/01
Posts: 13,104
Loc: Fire in the sky
Last seen: 5 years, 4 days
Re: Will GOP victory equate to legislative success? [Re: ]
    #1048507 - 11/13/02 02:06 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

America is a police state. I've been raided by SWAT with NO WARRENT. This kind of shit happens every day.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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Invisiblecarbonhoots
old hand

Registered: 09/11/01
Posts: 1,351
Loc: BC Canada
Re: Will GOP victory equate to legislative success? [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1048512 - 11/13/02 02:09 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Raided like in the movies? Guys in black suits yelling in your face and the like?


--------------------
  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES

Edited by carbonhoots (11/13/02 02:12 AM)

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OfflineEllis Dee
Archangel
Male User Gallery

Registered: 06/29/01
Posts: 13,104
Loc: Fire in the sky
Last seen: 5 years, 4 days
Re: Will GOP victory equate to legislative success? [Re: carbonhoots]
    #1048534 - 11/13/02 02:23 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

More like there's a banging on my door waking me up for 2 minutes and I get up and finally answer it and the SWAT guys are there dressed in black and a guy with a battering ram is about to break in my dor and a guy with a remingtom marine magnum 12 guage has his shorgun pointed right at my chest. They pull me outside throw me down, handcuff me and drag me back inside while the other SWAT guys are running from room to room with their shotguns yelling "clear". It was real and it sucks. If anything like that is ever going to happen again I'll kill them. And I'm not kidding, they'll be dead adn so will I after they kill me, but I'll take some of them with me.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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Offlinehongomon
old hand
Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 910
Loc: comin' at ya
Last seen: 19 years, 10 months
Re: Will GOP victory equate to legislative success? [Re: ]
    #1048740 - 11/13/02 06:33 AM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Teonan: "I am free to do as I please as long as I don't violate anothers RIGHTS, and then they have to catch me without violating my rights. Unless of course I am a Terrorist, then I have NO RIGHTS, because I don't believe in them anyways!!!!"

I'm confused.

If I have rights unless I'm a "terrorist", do I volunteer this information about myself to make the rights forfeiture less complicated? If I don't, do I have rights until proven to be a "terrorist"? According to the Homeboys Security Act, all it takes to lose these rights is--what? I don't even really know. Suspicion by--who? I just don't know. Do you?

And you know, I'm STILL waiting for a nice, clear example of what terrorism is! Sure, we can find examples that leave less room for doubt, but let's be concise and comprehensive. I say it can't be done without incriminating the U.S. government. And, I say that's the reason it hasn't been done. What pains me is that we've still allowed this "war" to continue, even though "terror" and "terrorism" have been left so vague and open-ended. We're being told, "We'll let you know when we find it." Can we get more circular?

And by the way, you are free to grow marijuana or mushrooms??? Wow.

And where did you get your example of what a police state is? Since when did the police have to start banging down doors? A lot of the types of surveilance used by police to enforce the immoral drug laws are different only in degrees from banging down doors. THEY SPY ON THE GENERAL PUBLIC. In my homestate, it's helicopters, for one. They use infrared (or did that one get shot down?). They moniter purchases of certain items--HPS light systems, etc. They check power bills. Sounds like a police state to me. Watcha gonna do.

"What is your problem with having EMAILS READ, unless you are a terrorist? "

I'm gonna shout this one: "THE GOVERNMENT HAS NO FUCKING BUSINESS READING OUR E-MAILS, PERIOD!!"

I had a few other things to say, but I gotta go. One last thing: there exists in society (even a free one) a privileged minority. They're in the saddle. They're the most conservative of conservatives. They exert all kinds of power in conserving their position. They'll do what they can--and they can do a lot--to prevent any social experiment that threatens to knock them off the horse. This is my testimony. Amen. Now we may eat.

Please pass the whirled peas

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Anonymous

Re: Will GOP victory equate to legislative success? [Re: carbonhoots]
    #1049292 - 11/13/02 12:35 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Yes carbonhoots, sadly Amerika is a police state. We have lost many many many many rights we used to have. All Federal drug laws are unconstitutional.

The Swat team stuff is no picnic. I have my own stories that I do not tell in public.

If they come to my door they had better prepare to die or kill me. I am ready to go.

And some misguided citizens think the Federal Government is on our side if their political party is in power. I cannot imagine such naive thinking, if one could call it that.

Cheers,

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Anonymous

Re: Will GOP victory equate to legislative success? [Re: hongomon]
    #1049296 - 11/13/02 12:36 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

Well said!

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OfflineI_Fart_Blue
Stranger

Registered: 06/25/02
Posts: 3,495
Loc: SItting on the Group W Be...
Last seen: 20 years, 2 months
Re: Will GOP victory equate to legislative success? [Re: ]
    #1049347 - 11/13/02 12:53 PM (21 years, 4 months ago)

"What is your problem with having EMAILS READ, unless you are a terrorist?"

You can't actually be retarded enough to actually believe this?

Perhaps we should place a government official in everybody's house to make sure they aren't doing anything illegal. They can have somebody to open up all your mail. They can tap all your phones. Infact, they should just place a bug on you to moniter all of your oral conersations. Don't forget a tracking device either. You shouldn't have a problem with this....unless you are a terrorist.


--------------------
"A study of the history of opinion is a necessary preliminary to the emancipation of the mind. I do not know which makes a man more conservative-to know nothing but the present, or nothing but the past." -John Maynard Keynes

Edited by I_Fart_Blue (11/13/02 12:56 PM)

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