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mad_cow
He hates these cans!
Registered: 05/01/09
Posts: 317
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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: Poid]
#10284493 - 05/04/09 03:40 PM (14 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said: What the hell, I didn't say that!
sorry, I fixed it.
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laserpig
Weedmaster_P
Registered: 04/28/09
Posts: 7,468
Last seen: 11 years, 10 months
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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: mad_cow]
#10284503 - 05/04/09 03:41 PM (14 years, 10 months ago) |
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What are you playing at? Do you think this thread reflects favorably on you? Making a poorly-thought-out claim then shifting it then completely changing it then backing out of it?
It's increasingly clear that you don't have a point, you don't have a platform, and you don't even have a concrete idea. You've started a debate based on nothing. Was this your plan? To waste our time?
I was really hoping you were going somewhere with this, but apparently not. I thought this thread had potential, but I was apparently mistaken. What a disappointment.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: mad_cow]
#10284509 - 05/04/09 03:42 PM (14 years, 10 months ago) |
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I already tried to debate that particular issue with you, and you just ignored it.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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mad_cow
He hates these cans!
Registered: 05/01/09
Posts: 317
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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: laserpig]
#10284555 - 05/04/09 03:49 PM (14 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
laserpig said: What are you playing at? Do you think this thread reflects favorably on you? Making a poorly-thought-out claim then shifting it then completely changing it then backing out of it?
It's increasingly clear that you don't have a point, you don't have a platform, and you don't even have a concrete idea. You've started a debate based on nothing. Was this your plan? To waste our time?
I was really hoping you were going somewhere with this, but apparently not. I thought this thread had potential, but I was apparently mistaken. What a disappointment.
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mad_cow
He hates these cans!
Registered: 05/01/09
Posts: 317
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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: Poid]
#10284564 - 05/04/09 03:50 PM (14 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said: I already tried to debate that particular issue with you, and you just ignored it.
I am sorry poid. I have been fielding stupid questions from angry little militant atheists. What was your question? I have to go to dinner soon.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: mad_cow]
#10284573 - 05/04/09 03:52 PM (14 years, 10 months ago) |
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Poid said:
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mad_cow said: I don't want to study atheism or religion.
There really isn't much to study about atheism...
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mad_cow said:
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Poid said: So people who are more self-conscious are closer to God?
What if every single living being in the universe was dead? Technically, there would be no consciousness to speak of, so according to your definition, there would be no God. Does God's existence rally depend on the existence of sentient beings?
That is making the assumption that all consciousness is in living beings.
Where else could it be? Half Dome?
Are you asserting that consciousness can be attributed to inanimate objects?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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mad_cow
He hates these cans!
Registered: 05/01/09
Posts: 317
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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: Poid]
#10284597 - 05/04/09 03:56 PM (14 years, 10 months ago) |
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There are books like the god delusion. The atheists must have something they want to say.
I think that consciousness exists in everything. Like the holographic universe. I don't think rocks have consciousness by themselves.
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laserpig
Weedmaster_P
Registered: 04/28/09
Posts: 7,468
Last seen: 11 years, 10 months
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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: mad_cow]
#10284599 - 05/04/09 03:56 PM (14 years, 10 months ago) |
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This is the problem with trying to discuss atheism among anyone other than people who are already atheists. The believers, who don't know any better, end up avoiding questions and going nowhere.
I wish I could have a rational discussion with a believer, I really do, but the more I try the more it seems impossible. Precise adherence to rationality just isn't in their nature.
Though I'm sure they'd like to think otherwise, I think that may be a requirement for them to even BE a believer. Within the structure of rationality, I haven't yet found a logic path which leads to the existence of god. When I try to get someone else to explain their logic path, all I ever find is that they don't have one.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: mad_cow]
#10284646 - 05/04/09 04:02 PM (14 years, 10 months ago) |
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mad_cow said: There are books like the god delusion. The atheists must have something they want to say.
Yeah, they want to talk about how nobody is born believing in God.
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mad_cow said: I think that consciousness exists in everything. Like the holographic universe. I don't think rocks have consciousness by themselves.
You think consciousness exists in everything, yet you don't think that rocks have consciousness by themselves? With whom/what do rocks have consciousness with, then? How does this all relate to the holographic universe theory?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: laserpig]
#10284654 - 05/04/09 04:03 PM (14 years, 10 months ago) |
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laserpig said: Precise adherence to rationality just isn't in their nature.
Now now, that's a bit of a hasty generalization. I'd say most people seem to be similar in that they possess mostly the same level of rationality; it's just that atheists and theists start from radically different premises.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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mad_cow
He hates these cans!
Registered: 05/01/09
Posts: 317
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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: laserpig]
#10284730 - 05/04/09 04:17 PM (14 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
laserpig said: This is the problem with trying to discuss atheism among anyone other than people who are already atheists. The believers, who don't know any better, end up avoiding questions and going nowhere.
I wish I could have a rational discussion with a believer, I really do, but the more I try the more it seems impossible. Precise adherence to rationality just isn't in their nature.
Though I'm sure they'd like to think otherwise, I think that may be a requirement for them to even BE a believer. Within the structure of rationality, I haven't yet found a logic path which leads to the existence of god. When I try to get someone else to explain their logic path, all I ever find is that they don't have one.
Read up on Shamanism and you will have your path to God.
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sterbeklang
w/e
Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 824
Loc: Filthy Rock
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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: mad_cow]
#10284931 - 05/04/09 04:45 PM (14 years, 10 months ago) |
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I'll be honest. I'm not reading one more stupid-ass atheist vs. religion thread. At this point in time, I don't care who believes what. If someone asked me, "Does God exist?" I'd say, "Who cares?"
--------------------
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C.M. Mann
subconscious explorer
Registered: 05/01/08
Posts: 899
Loc: Florida
Last seen: 12 years, 11 months
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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: sterbeklang]
#10285088 - 05/04/09 05:10 PM (14 years, 10 months ago) |
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: C.M. Mann]
#10285097 - 05/04/09 05:11 PM (14 years, 10 months ago) |
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C.M. Mann said:
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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laserpig
Weedmaster_P
Registered: 04/28/09
Posts: 7,468
Last seen: 11 years, 10 months
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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: deCypher]
#10285166 - 05/04/09 05:27 PM (14 years, 10 months ago) |
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deCypher said: Now now, that's a bit of a hasty generalization. I'd say most people seem to be similar in that they possess mostly the same level of rationality; it's just that atheists and theists start from radically different premises.
When I say "precise adherence to rationality" I mean precise. I'd say maybe 1% of people actually commit themselves to rationality, and I'm not counting myself in that 1%. It's something I strive for, but can't claim to have accomplished.
My belief -- and this is just belief -- is that there is a real set of things which make sense and can be understood in relation to each other. Within these set of things is an accurate description of the world. Any other belief, as far as I see, leaves us with absurdities.
As regards premises: starting from the right premise is a part of rationality. A rational person evaluates their own premises before progressing.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: laserpig]
#10285230 - 05/04/09 05:42 PM (14 years, 10 months ago) |
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laserpig said: As regards premises: starting from the right premise is a part of rationality. A rational person evaluates their own premises before progressing.
Yeah, I suppose. The problem is that you have to start somewhere with axioms that do not rely upon other evaluations or more fundamental assumptions.
This is the difference between having a valid and a sound argument.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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Zanthius
Mean Alien
Registered: 02/05/09
Posts: 1,570
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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: laserpig]
#10285232 - 05/04/09 05:43 PM (14 years, 10 months ago) |
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laserpig said: When I say "precise adherence to rationality" I mean precise. I'd say maybe 1% of people actually commit themselves to rationality, and I'm not counting myself in that 1%. It's something I strive for, but can't claim to have accomplished.
I don't think any human beings are 100% objective, or completely rational in their thinking. Everybody has a percentage of subjectivity in their conceptualizations of the universe, and everybody has a percentage of irrationality in their thinking. The difference between us is just how large this percentage is, and I don't necessarily believe that this percentage is higher in theists than in atheists. Probably there are some theists that are more rational and more objective than what some atheists are. Just like there are some atheists that are more rational and more objective than what some theists are.
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SlashOZ
:D
Registered: 10/20/06
Posts: 3,557
Loc: Following the water cycle
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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: laserpig]
#10285302 - 05/04/09 05:56 PM (14 years, 10 months ago) |
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God is just a cooked up idea by human to explain things we couldn't understand, like solar eclipses the moon changing phases etc. Now that we have everything electron microscopes and space spaced telescopes we can examine the universe in a more comprehensive fashion than in any previously known time in history. With all of this data we are gathering we have learning how animals reproduce and even how individual cells reproduce. The science behind this is pretty solid and makes a lot more sense to put my faith in science since I can definitely observe it having an impact on my life. For instance knowing about plant biology has led to better and more potent strains of marijuana. Putting my faith in any sort of god doesn't get me anywhere in life. Other living things die and I'm no different from a tree or a dog. Other living humans die. What evidence is there of an afterlife or reincarnation? If you can provide credible evidence for an afterlife or reincarnation perhaps belief in some sort of god or superstition would make sense. Until then I'll keep believing in science because it makes sense and is practical!
-------------------- "Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose "Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS "When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi "Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson. "Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)
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Zanthius
Mean Alien
Registered: 02/05/09
Posts: 1,570
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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: SlashOZ]
#10285319 - 05/04/09 05:59 PM (14 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
SlashOZ said: God is just a cooked up idea by human to explain things we couldn't understand, like solar eclipses the moon changing phases etc. Now that we have everything electron microscopes and space spaced telescopes we can examine the universe in a more comprehensive fashion than in any previously known time in history. With all of this data we are gathering we have learning how animals reproduce and even how individual cells reproduce. The science behind this is pretty solid and makes a lot more sense to put my faith in science since I can definitely observe it having an impact on my life. For instance knowing about plant biology has led to better and more potent strains of marijuana. Putting my faith in any sort of god doesn't get me anywhere in life. Other living things die and I'm no different from a tree or a dog. Other living humans die. What evidence is there of an afterlife or reincarnation? If you can provide credible evidence for an afterlife or reincarnation perhaps belief in some sort of god or superstition would make sense. Until then I'll keep believing in science because it makes sense and is practical!
I certainly believe in science, but I can also believe in a mono-holo-pantheistic God at the same time. There is nothing in science that conflicts with my belief in a mono-holo-pantheistic God. In fact, quantum entanglement and systems theory resonates quite well with my belief in a mono-holo-pantheistic God.
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Visionary Tools
Registered: 06/23/07
Posts: 7,953
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
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Re: how can athiests exist? [Re: Glenners]
#10285346 - 05/04/09 06:03 PM (14 years, 10 months ago) |
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Glenners said: So what made the universe? For me I say I don't know. religious people say a god made the universe. but then who made god? It'll just go on forever, so let's just be mystified with why we're all here without having to blame another concious being.
"The idea that God is an oversized white male with a flowing beard who sits in the sky and tallies the fall of every sparrow is ludicrous. But if by God one means the set of physical laws that govern the universe, then clearly there is such a God. This God is emotionally unsatisfying... it does not make much sense to pray to the law of gravity." - [Carl Sagan]
I love that Carl Sagan quote. As for what created God, that's an interesting question. Is it a loop? Does one universe evolve and form another? Was it just a thought, and if so, where did that thought originate?
That's a big question. The big bang doesn't really answer it, because it just says "There was this one little point of infinite smallness, then space, energy, trees, credit cards, the word "douchebag" and Willie Nelson."
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