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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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did congress legalize torture??...
    #10278346 - 05/03/09 01:43 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

this could be seen as a devils' advocate thread...anyway..

i will begin with the text of the 8th amendment to the US constitution.. which is often cited as prohibiting torture in all circumstances ..

Quote:

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.




the keyword is "punishments"...given that torture is "cruel and unusual".. a strict constructionist reading of the law nevertheless restricts the prohibition to punishment for a crime of which the prospective victim has been duly convicted...

under this interpretation..the 8th amendment prohibits a court from imposing a sentance that includes torture.. but does not prohibit the use of torture in interrogations.. or when it is otherwise not a punishment handed down by a court...

torture that is not prohibited under the 8th amendment had been prohibited by the geneva conventions and other federal statutes...that is until 2002..when (now house speaker) nancy pelosi and the other members of the intelligence committees were fully briefed on the torture programme.. and according to some reports..not only did not object..but actually cheered it on...congress as a whole subsequently signed off on the torture programme several times in the years that followed...

these actions constitute duly enacted legislation to severely weaken the statutes against torture.. and furthermore..nudge us down the slippery slope of attempting to define what constitutes torture...in either case.. it allows one to argue (im not) that bu$hco entertained their sadism under laws duly enacted by congress.. and as such..they cannot be accused of war crimes...

the 2005 detainee treatment act prohibited the use of torture by the US armed forces..but still allowed the CIA to conduct torture...in 2008..by a slim majority..congress passed an amendment to repeal all torture authourization.. which bush promptly vetoed...the legislation has not since been reintroduced...

president obama has since issued an executive order ending torture..at least for the time being.. and in publicizing the tortures that were used.. he has eliminated whatever usefulness they might have had (i doubt there ever was any)...however..a future POTUS is free to rescind the executive orders.. and with prospective victims having been trained to resist waterboarding..future CIA torturers may feel compelled to resort to even more brutal tortures...

the future is anything but sunny should the country ever tilt back to the right...


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Edited by Annapurna1 (05/03/09 04:35 PM)

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OfflineToTheSummit
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Re: did congress legalize torture??... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #10278915 - 05/03/09 03:50 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

The word "torture" is subjective.
And the US Constitution does not apply to 'enemy combatants', but grants rights to US citizens only.


Just a couple points that will be argued here I'm sure.


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: did congress legalize torture??... [Re: ToTheSummit]
    #10279596 - 05/03/09 06:03 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

if that were true..then i would strongly recommend that everyone start stockpiling weapons immediately ..if torture is subjective..then it becomes impossible to commit the crime...if only US citizens have constitutional protections..then the govt can summarily refute any documentation of your citizenship as a forgery..and deny your constitutional rights as such...

fortunately..of the items you listed..only one is correct ..the US constitution does not apply to captured POWs or enemy combatants...nevertheless..until 2002..federal statutes still prohibited the use of torture on these prisoners...

the topic of the thread is whether congress acted to legalize the use of torture against these prisoners...


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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

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OfflineToTheSummit
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Re: did congress legalize torture??... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #10280511 - 05/03/09 08:41 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

As I said, just things to be argued here.  And yes, I fear any government that thinks torture is okey-dokey.

Oh, and I've got my weapons ready. :smirk:


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InvisibleTherian
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Re: did congress legalize torture??... [Re: ToTheSummit]
    #10281042 - 05/03/09 10:17 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I also believe torture is subjective.  What exactly is cruel and unusual punishment? How about excessively long terms of incarceration for relatively minor infractions or victimless crimes? How about the sickening hypocrisy and double standards of incarceration when it comes to the wealthy, famous, or politically connected?

How about teens being sent to prison to be sodomized for minor drug offenses. Then these offenses go on their records and they become ineligible to ever receive financial aid to go to college, thus symbolically ass raping them into perpetuity. 

I think without a doubt those in  congress on both sides had to know what was going on and agreed with it, Obama included.  You tell me why else all the democrats would not be jumping on this issue whole heartedly for political gain.  They could have the republicans strung by their nads over this if they did not exhibit complicity in what went on.

As for the torture I don't see it.  When I watched the special on 9/11 in real time it put an actual face on the victims.  How many thousands of children will go to bed tonight without a parent. How many kids will never have a father to play ball with,go fishing with, or get parental advice from, how many daughters will never have their mothers with them to confide in, or see them married, go to prom, etc.

Well we could tell them there were evil men that planned this attack, and although your parents never hurt this man or his followers, he killed your parents.  And no, it most likely was not a painless death. They most certainly hung outside of windows waiting to be saved, but ultimately the heat began to melt the skin from their bodies and when they and others in equal amounts of excruciating pain and terror could no longer take it, they jumped from the buildings. 

Their bodies were crushed and exploded on impact with the ground, their skulls with grey matter, internal organs and pieces of bone, were sent flying, washing neighboring buildings with pieces of what was once your parent. Their bodies never to be found, never laid to rest, never any closure.

Ooh yeah and that bad guy, the whole nation is crying over him, for Christs sake, he had water poured on his face.

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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: did congress legalize torture??... [Re: Therian]
    #10281310 - 05/03/09 11:12 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

stop listening to fixed noise FFS..because its obvious thats where your getting your information...

and since your so keen on trying to frighten the audience with tales about kids that have to grow up w/o parents after 9/11.. i should point out that far more kids have been consigned to that fate because of a war that was trumped up on false confessions obtained under *torture*...what about all those soldiers that have arms and legs missing for the same reason??...

the object of torture is not to obtain intelligence information...torture is either conducted as an end to itself.. and/or to obtain false confessions for political purposes..as was the case with the iraq war...and those are necessarily the motivations of torture apologists that arent simple-minded fixed noise dupes...


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InvisibleTherian
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Re: did congress legalize torture??... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #10281608 - 05/04/09 12:34 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I'm not attempting to frighten anyone with tales, this is actual fact.
This war was not trumped up on false confessions, you're a jackass. This war, at least as far as Iraq is concerned was based on lies, and non-existent WMD's.

Yes I feel for every American soldier, and their families. But to say they were injured in battle due to the fact someone was tortured is ridiculous. Once again are you forgetting what brought about this war/who attacked whom in the first place? That was the point of my last post.  I also feel it is a disgrace to everyone of our soldiers that Obama was attempting to deny them medical coverage for injuries sustained in war.

Do you know how many of our soldiers were captured and then tortured, beaten, shot, had their bodies dragged through the streets, etc. Jessica lynch was sodomized and another in her company had his eyes scooped out with a blunt object, then he was shot in the head.  That is what I call torture, but hey she probably wore something sexy that day and was asking for it, right. So where is the outrage over these acts?

If my mother/sister/brother etc. was one of those burned alive in the towers then I really don't care what your perception of torture is.  I would hope that I could perform it myself. It would be agonizing, drawn out, and excruciating, and it certainly would not involve pouring water on someones face. 

As I have stated before, if you feel water boarding is so extreme, then why don't we abide by quid pro quo. We could lock them in a room 80 stories up, I would gladly throw in a few dozen gallons of jet fuel, set it ablaze and let them know when it gets too hot 40 virgins reside just outside the window.  How can reciprocity equate torture?  If you feel it does, that's fine. I wouldn't do it for political gain, but for deep sense of personal satisfaction...and of course a good nights sleep.

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: did congress legalize torture??... [Re: ToTheSummit]
    #10281906 - 05/04/09 01:52 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

ToTheSummit said:
The word "torture" is subjective.
And the US Constitution does not apply to 'enemy combatants', but grants rights to US citizens only.


Just a couple points that will be argued here I'm sure.







The constittuion applies to everyone.  Don't confuse jurisdiction with to hear a case with applicability of the law.  For example, just cuz you can't neccesarily sue the presdient to force him to vacate office if he's holding it illegaly, doesn't mean that he's still not violating the constitution.


Quote:


the US constitution does not apply to captured POWs or enemy combatants...nevertheless..until 2002..federal statutes still prohibited the use of torture on these prisoners...





source?  There's nothing magic about their designation as such that makes the constitution not apply to them.  This confusion is the source of much of the "OMG, bush can hold you without charges at any time!!!" hype in forums like these.


Quote:

under this interpretation..the 8th amendment prohibits a court from imposing a sentance that includes torture.. but does not prohibit the use of torture in interrogations.. or when it is otherwise not a punishment handed down by a court...






No.  Just cuz you [edit:  wanted to clarify I wasn't referring to any poster.  I'm contrasting a strict constructionist, as anna proffered with someone who believes the constitution's intent is relevant, et cet]follow what the constitution says rather than living in fairy land and believing whatever you want doesn't mean that the 8th allows torture in interrogations.


I think the term punishment is fairly clear- unless someone can correct me.  If they are torturing you to discourage you not to withold information I think its clearly punishment.  I've never heard a good reason why it isn't, and I don't like that you seem to presume that if you believe the constitution holds what it says that you must reach yoru conclusion.

Edited by johnm214 (05/04/09 06:38 AM)

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: did congress legalize torture??... [Re: Therian]
    #10282412 - 05/04/09 06:32 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Therian said:
I also believe torture is subjective.  What exactly is cruel and unusual punishment? How about excessively long terms of incarceration for relatively minor infractions or victimless crimes? How about the sickening hypocrisy and double standards of incarceration when it comes to the wealthy, famous, or politically connected?

How about teens being sent to prison to be sodomized for minor drug offenses. Then these offenses go on their records and they become ineligible to ever receive financial aid to go to college, thus symbolically ass raping them into perpetuity. 

I think without a doubt those in  congress on both sides had to know what was going on and agreed with it, Obama included.  You tell me why else all the democrats would not be jumping on this issue whole heartedly for political gain.  They could have the republicans strung by their nads over this if they did not exhibit complicity in what went on.

As for the torture I don't see it.  When I watched the special on 9/11 in real time it put an actual face on the victims.  How many thousands of children will go to bed tonight without a parent. How many kids will never have a father to play ball with,go fishing with, or get parental advice from, how many daughters will never have their mothers with them to confide in, or see them married, go to prom, etc.

Well we could tell them there were evil men that planned this attack, and although your parents never hurt this man or his followers, he killed your parents.  And no, it most likely was not a painless death. They most certainly hung outside of windows waiting to be saved, but ultimately the heat began to melt the skin from their bodies and when they and others in equal amounts of excruciating pain and terror could no longer take it, they jumped from the buildings. 

Their bodies were crushed and exploded on impact with the ground, their skulls with grey matter, internal organs and pieces of bone, were sent flying, washing neighboring buildings with pieces of what was once your parent. Their bodies never to be found, never laid to rest, never any closure.

Ooh yeah and that bad guy, the whole nation is crying over him, for Christs sake, he had water poured on his face.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_emotion

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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: did congress legalize torture??... [Re: Therian]
    #10283759 - 05/04/09 01:27 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

your pathetic attempt at shilling flies directly in the face of well known and documented facts...and i would strongly suggest that you consider another career option besides being a shill ..

Quote:

Therian said:
I'm not attempting to frighten anyone with tales, this is actual fact.
This war was not trumped up on false confessions, you're a jackass. This war, at least as far as Iraq is concerned was based on lies, and non-existent WMD's.




NYTIMES ..

Quote:

The report found that Maj. Paul Burney, a United States Army psychiatrist assigned to interrogations in Guantánamo Bay that summer of 2002, told Army investigators of another White House imperative: “A large part of the time we were focused on trying to establish a link between Al Qaeda and Iraq and we were not being successful.” As higher-ups got more “frustrated” at the inability to prove this connection, the major said, “there was more and more pressure to resort to measures” that might produce that intelligence.




Quote:

Once again are you forgetting what brought about this war/who attacked whom in the first place?




up until now i didnt think there was anybody that was ignorant enough to actually believe bu$hcos' laughable claims that *iraq* was somehow involved in 9/11.. which he tried to back up with false confessions obtained under torture...nor did i think anyone was stupid enough to think that anyone else would believe that bullshit either...

Quote:

Do you know how many of our soldiers were captured and then tortured, beaten, shot, had their bodies dragged through the streets, etc. Jessica lynch was sodomized and another in her company had his eyes scooped out with a blunt object, then he was shot in the head.  That is what I call torture, but hey she probably wore something sexy that day and was asking for it, right. So where is the outrage over these acts?




when we torture ppl (and many victims of bu$hcos' torture regimen were actually innocent civilians that were turned in for bounty)..we give our enemies an excuse to torture captured US POWs...

of course al-Q in iraq would have tortured those POWs even if they didnt have such an excuse...but that still doesnt justify such actions on our part...by stooping to their level..we lose the strategically important moral high ground OT1H.. while providing al-Q with a recruiting tool on the OTOH...

Quote:

If my mother/sister/brother etc. was one of those burned alive in the towers then I really don't care what your perception of torture is.  I would hope that I could perform it myself. It would be agonizing, drawn out, and excruciating, and it certainly would not involve pouring water on someones face.




watch pumpkinhead...

Quote:

As I have stated before, if you feel water boarding is so extreme, then why don't we abide by quid pro quo. We could lock them in a room 80 stories up, I would gladly throw in a few dozen gallons of jet fuel, set it ablaze and let them know when it gets too hot 40 virgins reside just outside the window.  How can reciprocity equate torture?  If you feel it does, that's fine. I wouldn't do it for political gain, but for deep sense of personal satisfaction...and of course a good nights sleep.




that last paragraph clearly demonstrates the opportunistic intentions..personal as well as political..of the bu$hco crowd wrt 9/11...some of them view 9/11 as an opportunity to seize land resources..as in iraq.. while cheap-labour conservatives see the police-state "anti-terrorism" apparatus as a useful tool against trade unions.. and still others..such as yourself and lynndie england..see an opportunity to entertain your own petty sadisms...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

Edited by Annapurna1 (05/04/09 03:20 PM)

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InvisibleMinstrel
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Re: did congress legalize torture??... [Re: Therian]
    #10293483 - 05/05/09 09:11 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

This is without doubt one of the sickest things I've read since I can remember.  Please seek psychiatric help.


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Re: did congress legalize torture??... [Re: Minstrel]
    #10293497 - 05/05/09 09:13 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

If you have to rationalize your behavior, you're probably not on the side of the angels.

Just saying.


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