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InvisibleSclorch
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Posts: 4,805
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Something...
    #1026978 - 11/06/02 05:23 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Is software metaphysical?

What if there was software that ran on top of another software... would that be metaphysical?

Or maybe processes just aren't metaphysical. :smirk:


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Something... [Re: Sclorch]
    #1026983 - 11/06/02 05:26 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

are you referring to magnetic data like a hard-drive or other types of storage like RAM?


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Re: Something... [Re: Strumpling]
    #1026999 - 11/06/02 05:32 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Anything software... specifically, parallel-distributed processors.

Note: A bookmark in a book doesn't signify the act of reading.


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OfflineMurex
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Re: Something... [Re: Sclorch]
    #1027025 - 11/06/02 05:43 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

In reply to:

Is software metaphysical?





It all depends on how you see it.


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What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Re: Something... [Re: Murex]
    #1027038 - 11/06/02 05:51 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

No sidestepping please.

Please explain to me all the different ways (that you know of) of looking at the situation.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Invisiblewhiterasta
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Registered: 04/09/02
Posts: 1,780
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Re: Something... [Re: Sclorch]
    #1027227 - 11/06/02 08:51 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

If you can design software to transcend the physical then it becomes metaphysical.That is, were you to create a program which could exceed it's output of information beyond the sum of it's input.Or create a program which could produce information with no input.Perhaps this would verge on "metaphysical"The main thing to be looking for is more information available than can be explained by input.BTW consciousness is a metaphysical process of a quantum nature,were one to create a "conscious" software program it by definition would be "metaphysical" :wink:WR


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To old for this place


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InvisibleEvolving
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Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
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Re: Something... [Re: Sclorch]
    #1027816 - 11/06/02 01:18 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

In reply to:

What if there was software that ran on top of another software... would that be metaphysical?



You mean like an application running on a Java virtual machine, running on another OS? No, software is not metaphysical, it's all based on the physical (magnetic and electrical). However, if we look at the meaning that humans assign to the symbols which are output from the computer...?


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Re: Something... [Re: Evolving]
    #1028670 - 11/06/02 05:10 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Is meaning not an instrument?
Even if it is arbitrary, meaning is still part of this software...

Is it really BASED on magnetic and electrical signals if it's a pattern running on a pattern running on a pattern of electrical/magnetic signals?

I posit that it is not. It's a process... it isn't physical (though it is dependent upon the physical) and it isn't metaphysical. It's inbetween. There's no satisfactory word for it (yet) as far as I'm concerned.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Invisiblewhiterasta
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Re: Something... [Re: Sclorch]
    #1028744 - 11/06/02 05:33 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Ahhhh...Sclorch you have discovered a great truth! Something I discovered in studying Cannabis biochemistry,we do not have the terms to describe what can be conceived.I attempted 15 yrs ago to describe the synergistic effects of cannabinoids used medicinaly and the closest analogy remains what could be described as a dance or a peice of music,strict chemical flow charts cannot contain enough information to delineate the true process.As quantum physicists create new terminology such as color and charm to describe sub atomic particles,so must many other areas forge new terminology to accomidate the novelty which is ever increasing in higher thought :wink:In this instance would "epiphysical" suffice to descibe this electromagnetic informational process? :grin: Sort of an overlayered physicality which creates gestalt?WR


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To old for this place


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Something... [Re: Sclorch]
    #1028843 - 11/06/02 06:11 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Well Sclorch when you word it that way then any type of "data" is metaphysical, including books and other forms of information.

The binary system made of 0s and 1s are really physically ON or OFF........ but you're saying that since they're organized in such complex arrangements they somehow trancend phisicality?

-=- Matt/Strumpling -=-
You confuse me, Sclorch.


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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Offlinevaporbrains
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Re: Something... [Re: Sclorch]
    #1028959 - 11/06/02 06:40 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Techinically any OS is a pattern (the OS) running on another pattern (machine language) running on another pattern (the hardware/electrical substrate). i don't see any significant difference between "normal" software and software that "runs" on other software. i don't see these "process" that you claim are neither physical or meta-physical. they seem akin to something like the qualia of sound which although based in a process of air compression/expansion interfacing with a neural network, cannot be completely encompassed by these processes. we still fail to explain the quality of sound perceived by a conscious being.

you say "it" is not magnetic/electronic if it's "based on" a pattern of a pattern of a pattern. maybe i'm dense, but it's still ALL made possible by a magneto-electric substrate. is a computer program no longer physical because it queries another program for information instead of directly querying memory? what are you talking about exactly?


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All refrences to and statements concerning mushrooms, mushroom cultivation, and mushroom related paraphrenalia refer specifically to the cultivation of legal species.


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Re: Something... [Re: vaporbrains]
    #1030499 - 11/07/02 12:45 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Whiterasta: In this instance would "epiphysical" suffice to descibe this electromagnetic informational process?

epi- : on, beside, among, outside, over, before
I think 'among' and 'on' sort of works. I'm not sure.

WR: Sort of an overlayered physicality which creates gestalt?

Exactly.

vapor: what are you talking about exactly?

The gestalt thing. I think qualia is a different subject altogether.

It's like this...
You're constructing a skyscraper (standard cuboid).
You first build the foundation (hardware).
You build the first floor (software 1)
...
...
You build the 30th floor (software 30)

The building isn't the 30th floor, the 16th floor, the first floor, or the foundation... it's the whole damn thing.

If I rip out the foundation, the building will collapse. Likewise, if I do enough damage to any of the lower floors, the same thing will happen. (this could be a REALLY long analogy)
Same thing that happens with consciousness. Destroy the hardware and consciousness goes poof!


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Something... [Re: Sclorch]
    #1030934 - 11/07/02 02:53 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

you're still not making much sense though sclorch....

if you turn off the computer all the software stops running........ because you turned off the computer..

If you turn off the body..... the mind stops running.... I don't understand how this connection is made in regards to what we were discussing.

Please elaborate


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Something... [Re: Strumpling]
    #1030999 - 11/07/02 03:30 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Elaborate on WHAT?

Your punctuation is baffling.
Just tell me exactly what you want, okay?


--------------------
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OfflineStrumpling
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Registered: 10/11/02
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Re: Something... [Re: Sclorch]
    #1032721 - 11/07/02 03:45 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

tell me your main idea again in other terms, i guess.... because it makes absolutely no sense; what you're saying up there:

software is metaphysical because we apply meaning to it?


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Something... [Re: Strumpling]
    #1038180 - 11/09/02 03:54 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

Okay... so I've talked my point out extensively with a couple of philosophers the other day.

I think we all pretty much agree that consciousness is a function that sort of arises out of neural processes. It's not physicalism. It's not metaphysical (beyond physics). It's something else... and there is no word for it yet.

I'm only 95% sure... a good healthy margin for doubt.

If you don't understand what I'm talking about... I really can't help you. I think I've explained it in as laymen of terms as I can. Really I'm sorry.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Offlinespewed 4th
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Re: Something... [Re: Sclorch]
    #1038681 - 11/09/02 12:58 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

without your screen [physical conductor of the metaphysical] would you be able to notice the software?
-if not then yes software is metaphysical.
-if you do need your screen then no software is not


Edited by spewed 4th (11/09/02 08:23 PM)


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Registered: 07/13/99
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Re: Something... [Re: spewed 4th]
    #1038881 - 11/09/02 03:08 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

without your screen [physical conductor of the metaphysical] would you be able to notice the software?
if not then yes software is metaphysical.


You see... this is how analogies can suck.
But to answer the question quickly... YOU NEED YOUR SCREEN.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Something... [Re: Sclorch]
    #1039071 - 11/09/02 04:54 PM (14 years, 1 month ago)

anyway, you're talking about software in this thread, not consciousness....

software is all VERY REAL 0s and 1s - well they use Hex a lot too I guess..

So you're changing the subject to consciousness?


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Something... [Re: Strumpling]
    #1040170 - 11/10/02 03:01 AM (14 years, 1 month ago)

So the locus shifted... it still fits.

Check out philosophy of mind (hell, check the table of contents on an intro book- it's quite pertinent) and then reread this thread.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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