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InvisibledeCypher
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Absence of desire... and why this may not be a good thing.
    #10259925 - 04/30/09 02:22 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

The Buddhists seek to ultimately eliminate desire in all its manifestations, thus preventing suffering from an individualistic basis.  Evolve your consciousness and ye shall find the kingdom of heaven within.  However, I claim this is an ultimately selfish tactic: you claim selflessness while you instead only pursue the narcissistic phantoms of your own Awareness.

Shouldn't we still keep the desire to help alleviate other people's suffering?  The external world is just as important as the internal world.


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InvisibleMiddlemanM

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Re: Absence of desire... and why this may not be a good thing. [Re: deCypher]
    #10259945 - 04/30/09 02:27 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I don't think we seek to eliminate desire or even attachment, we seek to eliminate identifying with our desires and attachments.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Absence of desire... and why this may not be a good thing. [Re: Middleman]
    #10259992 - 04/30/09 02:37 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Middleman said: we seek to eliminate identifying with our desires and attachments.




So we should seek to eliminate identifying with our desire to help other people?

I suppose what I'm getting at here is the seemingly fundamental difference between the Buddhist ethic and the Christian ethic centered on Compassion.


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InvisibleMiddlemanM

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Re: Absence of desire... and why this may not be a good thing. [Re: deCypher]
    #10260016 - 04/30/09 02:44 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Absolutely. As you probably know, this trip is loaded with paradox.
Buddha's message has been just as misinterpreted as Christ's.


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InvisibleMastamike1118
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Re: Absence of desire... and why this may not be a good thing. [Re: Middleman]
    #10260029 - 04/30/09 02:48 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

they are called bodhisattvas who once cut it all off come back to help others...and the others are called arhats or arhatas i think and they choose to completely let go..


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Absence of desire... and why this may not be a good thing. [Re: Mastamike1118]
    #10260030 - 04/30/09 02:48 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Mastamike1118 said:
they are called bodhisattvas who once cut it all off come back to help others...and the others are called arhats or arhatas i think and they choose to completely let go..




Yes, so which is morally preferable?


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InvisibleMiddlemanM

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Re: Absence of desire... and why this may not be a good thing. [Re: Mastamike1118]
    #10260033 - 04/30/09 02:49 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Right but no one finds Nirvana without complete selfless compassion.


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InvisibleMastamike1118
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Re: Absence of desire... and why this may not be a good thing. [Re: deCypher]
    #10260035 - 04/30/09 02:49 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

morally to whom? it just depends on what kind of person you are... both are equally good and bad...

edit: yea the arhats argue that compassion towards others is just another link of the chain that ties you to suffering...buddha was said to have thought for a long time about if he would tell anyone and that he could not think of any reason to stay behind... then the stars or gods lol told him but what if you helped one person it would all be worth it would it not? and he agreed...


Edited by Mastamike1118 (04/30/09 02:51 AM)


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Absence of desire... and why this may not be a good thing. [Re: Middleman]
    #10260045 - 04/30/09 02:53 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Middleman said:
Right but no one finds Nirvana without complete selfless compassion.




How are you defining compassion?  IMO it seems to be merely another way of keeping a desire to help others.


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InvisibleMiddlemanM

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Re: Absence of desire... and why this may not be a good thing. [Re: deCypher]
    #10260066 - 04/30/09 02:58 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

This stuff is hard to talk about but compassion is simply being the other.


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InvisibleMastamike1118
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Re: Absence of desire... and why this may not be a good thing. [Re: deCypher]
    #10260074 - 04/30/09 02:59 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

so do you think we can actually help someone? sure we could superficially give them money give them a house... but all these things have effects that may add more stress to the person if nothing else...

only thing i could think of would be saving a life but even then you are causing more trouble for someone who tried to kill themselves and for someone who was about to get hit by a car you are keeping him attached to samsara or the game of humanity... everything that is good also has negative things that go with it


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Absence of desire... and why this may not be a good thing. [Re: Mastamike1118]
    #10260096 - 04/30/09 03:03 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Middleman said:
This stuff is hard to talk about but compassion is simply being the other.




Take this to its logical extension and you have the Hive Mind; an ant colony comprised of a singular consciousness emerged out of the sum of the parts of the many ants.  The trouble with this is that what's good for the whole (or the One) is not necessarily what's good for the individual.

Quote:

Mastamike1118 said:
so do you think we can actually help someone?




Death alleviates all suffering...


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InvisibleMastamike1118
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Re: Absence of desire... and why this may not be a good thing. [Re: Middleman]
    #10260103 - 04/30/09 03:05 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Middleman said:
This stuff is hard to talk about but compassion is simply being the other.




it is possible to be yourself individually and be the other at the same time...there is no choice that you can make though regarding how you want to come across,basically no ego,so its not like you can choose to help the other person...if you end up helping them you didnt do it on purpose you simply were and the other person found himself help through you...


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InvisibleMastamike1118
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Re: Absence of desire... and why this may not be a good thing. [Re: Mastamike1118]
    #10260142 - 04/30/09 03:11 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

kill the father fuck the mother? ne one out there?lol


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Offlinelaserpig
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Re: Absence of desire... and why this may not be a good thing. [Re: deCypher]
    #10260151 - 04/30/09 03:13 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

i think what we have here is your classic incomplete understanding of what buddhism actually teaches.

its a very nuanced philosophy. i can't claim to fully understand it but i know it's a much richer body of thought than what your impression of it seems to be ... and i have no idea what you meant by "narcissistic phantoms of your awareness."

basically what it come down to is that compassion for others is, far from being eliminated by their philosophy, actively encouraged in almost all of what they teach.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Absence of desire... and why this may not be a good thing. [Re: laserpig]
    #10260166 - 04/30/09 03:16 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

laserpig said:
i think what we have here is your classic incomplete understanding of what buddhism actually teaches.




Am I correct in saying at the very least that they strive to eliminate desire?  If so, my point still stands.


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InvisibleMiddlemanM

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Re: Absence of desire... and why this may not be a good thing. [Re: deCypher]
    #10260188 - 04/30/09 03:20 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

How can anyone do anything without desire? Of course that isn't what the Buddha taught.


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InvisibleQuetzalcohuatl
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Re: Absence of desire... and why this may not be a good thing. [Re: Mastamike1118]
    #10260202 - 04/30/09 03:23 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

It is and it isn't.


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Offlineandrewss
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Re: Absence of desire... and why this may not be a good thing. [Re: Middleman]
    #10260214 - 04/30/09 03:26 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Yeah I was gonna say perhaps that is lumping too much together and calling it Buddhism or whatever.

Beyond that issue, I see what you are saying and I can agree with the real point you might be trying to make.

But a lot can be said about what you mean, to go out and help other people. And what sort of suffering should be alieviated, etc... a lot could be developed there. But yeah.....


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Re: Absence of desire... and why this may not be a good thing. [Re: deCypher]
    #10260217 - 04/30/09 03:26 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I think the idea is that when a person lets go of a desire, like compassion, they are then able to exemplify it. IOW, a person isn't selflessly compassionate until they have no desire to be compassionate. Once the desire is gone, they find it's their nature to be compassionate. Within the desire to have compassion, there is duality, and it will prevent a person from being it.


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InvisibleMiddlemanM

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Re: Absence of desire... and why this may not be a good thing. [Re: Quetzalcohuatl]
    #10260218 - 04/30/09 03:26 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Exactly. There is desire but it is not 'my' desire.


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InvisibleMastamike1118
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Re: Absence of desire... and why this may not be a good thing. [Re: andrewss]
    #10260229 - 04/30/09 03:28 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

damn well i always thought that the very striving is a desire...but it always starts with that striving... right?

but then i thought your kinda sposed to give up that desire but idk its prolly impossible to give up all desire... well actually they say transcend desire...so you would give it up without actually giving it up


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OfflineBrainChemistry
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Re: Absence of desire... and why this may not be a good thing. [Re: Mastamike1118]
    #10260231 - 04/30/09 03:29 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Shouldn't we still keep the desire to help alleviate other people's suffering?





THIS IS THE MOST TRUE THING I HAVE HEARD ALL DAY.

Thank you for it, deCypher. :smile:


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InvisibleMastamike1118
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Re: Absence of desire... and why this may not be a good thing. [Re: BrainChemistry]
    #10260238 - 04/30/09 03:31 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

agreed^^^ i guess what was said before only pertains to the ones who want it all you know that nirvana shit...


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Offlinelaserpig
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Re: Absence of desire... and why this may not be a good thing. [Re: Mastamike1118]
    #10260243 - 04/30/09 03:33 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

as far as i know, reaching enlightenment is like the exact opposite of losing the desire to alleviate suffering


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InvisibleQuetzalcohuatl
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Re: Absence of desire... and why this may not be a good thing. [Re: Mastamike1118]
    #10260248 - 04/30/09 03:37 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Well i'm not buddhist really and my reasoning is just a logical condundrum.

you can't really reason your way through paradoxes and dilemmas like this, they are like a runaway bull charging down on you you either dodge out of the way or grab a hold of the horns and get taken for a ride. That's why sometimes Zen is so silly and yet when you finally have the 'a-ha' moment and get it you realize it was actually not so silly.


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InvisibleMiddlemanM

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Re: Absence of desire... and why this may not be a good thing. [Re: Quetzalcohuatl]
    #10260282 - 04/30/09 03:55 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Exactly. Awakening is a process that takes place below the neck.


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OfflineBrainChemistry
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Re: Absence of desire... and why this may not be a good thing. [Re: Middleman]
    #10260312 - 04/30/09 04:08 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

The awakening below the neck facilitates a greater awakening above the neck. :grin:


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Re: Absence of desire... and why this may not be a good thing. [Re: deCypher]
    #10260335 - 04/30/09 04:15 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
The Buddhists seek to ultimately eliminate desire in all its manifestations, thus preventing suffering from an individualistic basis.  Evolve your consciousness and ye shall find the kingdom of heaven within.  However, I claim this is an ultimately selfish tactic: you claim selflessness while you instead only pursue the narcissistic phantoms of your own Awareness.

Shouldn't we still keep the desire to help alleviate other people's suffering?  The external world is just as important as the internal world.




Alright, this is a very complex question, whether you realize it or not... and it requires a quite complex answer. Taṇhā, what you refer to as desire, is something that buddhism is concerned with lessening, you are correct. However, the fundamental problem in the OP is the assumption that buddhism seeks to remove ALL Taṇhā. It does not. In Buddhism, there are three sorts of taṇhā that are considered the root of suffering are as follows:

The first is sensuality and the craving for objects pleasing to the senses.
The second is the craving for existence and reality.
The third is craving nonexistence and atemporality.

This also takes into account the negatives... for instance, you can have a taṇhā to NOT experience pain, or to NOT experience bad things... its kind of how subtraction and addition are the same operator. You can always add a negative or subtract a positive.

Whenever someone does these things based off of Taṇhā for the aforementioned three roots of suffering, they act on these desires because they believe doing so will bring about happiness, well-being, and the negatives of that... a loss of suffering, a loss of longing. Buddhism believes that this is the root cause of suffering. The third of the four noble truths states that suffering can be eased with a gradual extinguishment of craving of these three things.

There is a belief that not all taṇhā is bad in Buddhism, though. In fact, one of the central tenets of buddhism is that taṇhā, when applied to something that WILL bring about a cessation of suffering, ceases to be a negative force and instead becomes a valuable tool to enlightenment.

So when is it a valuable tool and a good thing in buddhism?

According to the Pali Cannon:

Quote:

And what, monks, is right effort?
(i) There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds and exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen.
(ii) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds and exerts his intent for the sake of the abandonment of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen.
(iii) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds and exerts his intent for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen.
(iv) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds and exerts his intent for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, and culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen:
This, monks, is called right effort.



Or, in a more simple manner:


Quote:

make effort to prevent the unwholesome that has not yet arisen in oneself.
make effort to destroy the unwholesome that has arisen in oneself.
make effort to arouse the wholesome that has not yet arisen in oneself.
make effort to maintain the wholesome that has arisen in oneself.



I hope that was good enough.


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InvisibleMastamike1118
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Re: Absence of desire... and why this may not be a good thing. [Re: supernovasky]
    #10260358 - 04/30/09 04:21 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

lol so basically do nothing...


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InvisibleQuetzalcohuatl
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Re: Absence of desire... and why this may not be a good thing. [Re: Middleman]
    #10260518 - 04/30/09 05:50 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

lolwut


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OfflineWandering_Yogi
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Re: Absence of desire... and why this may not be a good thing. [Re: Quetzalcohuatl]
    #10260647 - 04/30/09 06:39 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Thanks, Supernovasky. I think I get you.

I want to talk about selfishness.
Perhaps all human behavior is selfish from a certain point of view.
Human actions that appear selfless or compassionate such as self-sacrifice could be motivated by personal priorities. For example, maybe I would only sacrifice my life to save yours because I'm convinced that I couldn't live with myself if I let you die.


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InvisibleMastamike1118
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Re: Absence of desire... and why this may not be a good thing. [Re: Wandering_Yogi]
    #10260659 - 04/30/09 06:44 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

sacrificing yourself for another..... idk that just doesnt sit well with me...

ok yea everyone will think of you as heroic...but damn u just gave up your shot at everything for nothing...for a thought in your mind...


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Absence of desire... and why this may not be a good thing. [Re: supernovasky]
    #10261714 - 04/30/09 12:38 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
I think the idea is that when a person lets go of a desire, like compassion, they are then able to exemplify it. IOW, a person isn't selflessly compassionate until they have no desire to be compassionate. Once the desire is gone, they find it's their nature to be compassionate. Within the desire to have compassion, there is duality, and it will prevent a person from being it.




OK, but I don't understand the logic that infers that compassion comes naturally from within once all desire is gone.

Quote:

supernovasky said:
In Buddhism, there are three sorts of taṇhā that are considered the root of suffering are as follows:

The first is sensuality and the craving for objects pleasing to the senses.
The second is the craving for existence and reality.
The third is craving nonexistence and atemporality.




Thanks for the info, supernovasky.  #2 and #3 are particularly interesting; does this mean we should be apathetic about our own existence/nonexistence?

Quote:

supernovasky said:
make effort to prevent the unwholesome that has not yet arisen in oneself.
make effort to destroy the unwholesome that has arisen in oneself.
make effort to arouse the wholesome that has not yet arisen in oneself.
make effort to maintain the wholesome that has arisen in oneself.




This I can agree with more than Rahz's proposal... both wholesome and unwholesome things lie within ready to be awakened by preference and imposition of a scheme of moral qualification.  But how do Buddhists determine which is considered wholesome and which is considered unwholesome?


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Re: Absence of desire... and why this may not be a good thing. [Re: deCypher]
    #10261721 - 04/30/09 12:40 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

The Buddhist outlook seems paradoxical to me. In order to eliminate your desires, you have to desire to eliminate your desires.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Absence of desire... and why this may not be a good thing. [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #10261729 - 04/30/09 12:42 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

vigilant_mind said:
The Buddhist outlook seems paradoxical to me. In order to eliminate your desires, you have to desire to eliminate your desires.




You have to initially desire to eliminate all desire, but after you've hypothetically stopped desiring then you would no longer need that first statement of preference and the situation would not be contradictory.


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Re: Absence of desire... and why this may not be a good thing. [Re: deCypher]
    #10261926 - 04/30/09 01:23 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

My take is that, desire, as proposed in here = emotional attachment, holding on to the desired outcome, which as a result creates a difficulty of dealing with the fact that things go in a different direction, when they do.
I think that you can still want things, without having to have the attachment.


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Re: Absence of desire... and why this may not be a good thing. [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10262364 - 04/30/09 02:47 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
My take is that, desire, as proposed in here = emotional attachment, holding on to the desired outcome, which as a result creates a difficulty of dealing with the fact that things go in a different direction, when they do.
I think that you can still want things, without having to have the attachment.




DEFINITELY!

Thanks for posting this MT because I totally agree with you.

It is entirely possible to desire something, while at the same time not care if you get it. Or rather....not care when you get it. This is about accepting the fact that if wait for things to come to you, can eventually achieve all that you desire.

Also desire without attachment can be changed. If you realize you can't get what it is your desiring and you aren't attached to it...well then you just adjust your desire!

I really don't like the strict Buddhist interpretation of "desire leads to suffering". It only leads to suffering if you are so attached to your desires that you feel like you can't live without it. That is called obsession!! Not desire!

And also...whos to say that suffering, in the proper amounts, isn't a good thing? A little bit of suffering can teach you lessons about life that would otherwise take a life time to learn.


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Re: Absence of desire... and why this may not be a good thing. [Re: deCypher]
    #10262814 - 04/30/09 04:03 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

Rahz said:
I think the idea is that when a person lets go of a desire, like compassion, they are then able to exemplify it. IOW, a person isn't selflessly compassionate until they have no desire to be compassionate. Once the desire is gone, they find it's their nature to be compassionate. Within the desire to have compassion, there is duality, and it will prevent a person from being it.




OK, but I don't understand the logic that infers that compassion comes naturally from within once all desire is gone.

Quote:

supernovasky said:
In Buddhism, there are three sorts of taṇhā that are considered the root of suffering are as follows:

The first is sensuality and the craving for objects pleasing to the senses.
The second is the craving for existence and reality.
The third is craving nonexistence and atemporality.




Thanks for the info, supernovasky.  #2 and #3 are particularly interesting; does this mean we should be apathetic about our own existence/nonexistence?

Quote:

supernovasky said:
make effort to prevent the unwholesome that has not yet arisen in oneself.
make effort to destroy the unwholesome that has arisen in oneself.
make effort to arouse the wholesome that has not yet arisen in oneself.
make effort to maintain the wholesome that has arisen in oneself.




This I can agree with more than Rahz's proposal... both wholesome and unwholesome things lie within ready to be awakened by preference and imposition of a scheme of moral qualification.  But how do Buddhists determine which is considered wholesome and which is considered unwholesome?




:smile: The simple wood cutter who does not think about these questions and simply exists to help raise the wholesome traits in others is considered one of the holiest states of existence in Buddhism.

As far as what is considered wholesome vs unwholesome, we'd have to go back to the less simplified version:

(i) There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds and exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen.
(ii) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds and exerts his intent for the sake of the abandonment of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen.
(iii) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds and exerts his intent for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen.
(iv) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds and exerts his intent for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, and culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen:

Buddhism focuses a lot on cultivating skillful qualities while extinguishing unskillful qualities. The exact definition of that is left up to the Buddhist to determine.

Do not take what I am about to say as typical Buddhism, because we all define these things differently: I in my own meditation have aligned my values and my belief of "skillful vs unskillful" as having the propensity to gain use from humanity vs having the propensity to waste humanities time. Every action that I take affects others and self in a multitude of ways. In these actions, we are all connected and part of the same net of forces that determines the direction that every atom in this universe takes. The more unskillful qualities that I provoke or commit, the less likely these forces will lead to gaining a use from what this universe has provided for us. The more skillful qualities I provoke or commit, the more likely we are to get a use from what this universe has provided for us.

I view Buddhism as aligning us with our natural propensity as human beings to act as organizers, thinkers, discoverers, and builders. The more we try to cultivate these traits, the more advanced we become. Advancement is important in Buddhism, and eventually enlightenment. Proceed forward with purpose, not Tanha for pleasurable things, but Tanha for skillful qualities and the cultivation thereof.


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Offlinesupernovasky
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Re: Absence of desire... and why this may not be a good thing. [Re: BrainChemistry]
    #10262844 - 04/30/09 04:07 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

BrainChemistry said:
Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
My take is that, desire, as proposed in here = emotional attachment, holding on to the desired outcome, which as a result creates a difficulty of dealing with the fact that things go in a different direction, when they do.
I think that you can still want things, without having to have the attachment.




DEFINITELY!

Thanks for posting this MT because I totally agree with you.

It is entirely possible to desire something, while at the same time not care if you get it. Or rather....not care when you get it. This is about accepting the fact that if wait for things to come to you, can eventually achieve all that you desire.

Also desire without attachment can be changed. If you realize you can't get what it is your desiring and you aren't attached to it...well then you just adjust your desire!

I really don't like the strict Buddhist interpretation of "desire leads to suffering". It only leads to suffering if you are so attached to your desires that you feel like you can't live without it. That is called obsession!! Not desire!

And also...whos to say that suffering, in the proper amounts, isn't a good thing? A little bit of suffering can teach you lessons about life that would otherwise take a life time to learn.




Its not that desire by itself leads to suffering. It is that we feel that obtaining what we desire will ultimately provide an end to our suffering. Of course, suffering is relative. There may be a small amount of suffering from boredom, or there may be a large amount of suffering from intense pain. Buddhism contends that we are locked in a cycle of trying to extinguish our sufferings by striving to obtain what we desire, and that for those that wish to cultivate an end to suffering, we need to transcend this cycle and understand that obtaining what we desire will not extinguish the suffering that we thought it would. Obtaining that shiny new video game may relieve your boredom for a little while, but boredom as an emotion will still remain within you long after the game loses its use.

Buddhism focuses on meditating and isolating these feelings and understanding how they work, and what they cause you to do. Ultimately, it contends that you can lessen the effect of these feelings, even rise above them. I know that it has certainly done so in my life.


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Re: Absence of desire... and why this may not be a good thing. [Re: deCypher]
    #10262847 - 04/30/09 04:08 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

vigilant_mind said:
The Buddhist outlook seems paradoxical to me. In order to eliminate your desires, you have to desire to eliminate your desires.




You have to initially desire to eliminate all desire, but after you've hypothetically stopped desiring then you would no longer need that first statement of preference and the situation would not be contradictory.




The entire thread could be summed up with these two statements..

btw..

Welcome to my Mind

:smile:


--------------------



---------------------

All my posts in this forum are strictly fictional.
They are derived from an acute mental illness , from which i am forced to lie compulsively.
I have never induced any kind of mind altering substance in my life  and i have no intentions whatsoever of doing anything illegal.
If I have ever suggested such a thing it would have most likely been , due to my personality disorder and i probably do not remember it at all..


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Re: Absence of desire... and why this may not be a good thing. [Re: deCypher]
    #10263653 - 04/30/09 06:23 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

OK, but I don't understand the logic that infers that compassion comes naturally from within once all desire is gone.




It seems to be an observation based on experience, not logic. A person experiences compassion at times, though it is generally not desired at the time of occurrence. It just happens, and is either accepted, or isn't accepted when desires get in the way.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


“I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather did. Not screaming in terror like the passengers in his car."


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Re: Absence of desire... and why this may not be a good thing. [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #10263790 - 04/30/09 06:48 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

vigilant_mind said:
The Buddhist outlook seems paradoxical to me. In order to eliminate your desires, you have to desire to eliminate your desires.


That is only superficially a paradox.  It is very simple: when you are tired of Samsara, you strive to practice the eightfold path in order to get out of it.  It is a natural progression when you see the bind you are in.

"The problem with being a Buddhist is the amount of time you spend on the path, knowing that you are deluded, and still being caught up in it. It makes the rapid enlightenment schemes look attractive, but alas, they too are delusions."
~Lopphon Kunga Namdrol


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”


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Re: Absence of desire... and why this may not be a good thing. [Re: deCypher]
    #10264314 - 04/30/09 08:05 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
The Buddhists seek to ultimately eliminate desire in all its manifestations, thus preventing suffering from an individualistic basis.  Evolve your consciousness and ye shall find the kingdom of heaven within.  However, I claim this is an ultimately selfish tactic: you claim selflessness while you instead only pursue the narcissistic phantoms of your own Awareness.

Shouldn't we still keep the desire to help alleviate other people's suffering?  The external world is just as important as the internal world.




Happiness is what's important to me. All else is secondary.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"


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