Home | Community | Message Board

Avalon Magic Plants
Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | Next >  [ show all ]
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Absence of desire... and why this may not be a good thing.
    #10259925 - 04/30/09 02:22 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

The Buddhists seek to ultimately eliminate desire in all its manifestations, thus preventing suffering from an individualistic basis.  Evolve your consciousness and ye shall find the kingdom of heaven within.  However, I claim this is an ultimately selfish tactic: you claim selflessness while you instead only pursue the narcissistic phantoms of your own Awareness.

Shouldn't we still keep the desire to help alleviate other people's suffering?  The external world is just as important as the internal world.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleMiddlemanM

Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 8,388
Re: Absence of desire... and why this may not be a good thing. [Re: deCypher]
    #10259945 - 04/30/09 02:27 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

I don't think we seek to eliminate desire or even attachment, we seek to eliminate identifying with our desires and attachments.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Absence of desire... and why this may not be a good thing. [Re: Middleman]
    #10259992 - 04/30/09 02:37 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Middleman said: we seek to eliminate identifying with our desires and attachments.




So we should seek to eliminate identifying with our desire to help other people?

I suppose what I'm getting at here is the seemingly fundamental difference between the Buddhist ethic and the Christian ethic centered on Compassion.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleMiddlemanM

Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 8,388
Re: Absence of desire... and why this may not be a good thing. [Re: deCypher]
    #10260016 - 04/30/09 02:44 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Absolutely. As you probably know, this trip is loaded with paradox.
Buddha's message has been just as misinterpreted as Christ's.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleMastamike1118
Male

Registered: 03/29/07
Posts: 2,010
Re: Absence of desire... and why this may not be a good thing. [Re: Middleman]
    #10260029 - 04/30/09 02:48 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

they are called bodhisattvas who once cut it all off come back to help others...and the others are called arhats or arhatas i think and they choose to completely let go..


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Absence of desire... and why this may not be a good thing. [Re: Mastamike1118]
    #10260030 - 04/30/09 02:48 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Mastamike1118 said:
they are called bodhisattvas who once cut it all off come back to help others...and the others are called arhats or arhatas i think and they choose to completely let go..




Yes, so which is morally preferable?


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleMiddlemanM

Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 8,388
Re: Absence of desire... and why this may not be a good thing. [Re: Mastamike1118]
    #10260033 - 04/30/09 02:49 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Right but no one finds Nirvana without complete selfless compassion.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleMastamike1118
Male

Registered: 03/29/07
Posts: 2,010
Re: Absence of desire... and why this may not be a good thing. [Re: deCypher]
    #10260035 - 04/30/09 02:49 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

morally to whom? it just depends on what kind of person you are... both are equally good and bad...

edit: yea the arhats argue that compassion towards others is just another link of the chain that ties you to suffering...buddha was said to have thought for a long time about if he would tell anyone and that he could not think of any reason to stay behind... then the stars or gods lol told him but what if you helped one person it would all be worth it would it not? and he agreed...


Edited by Mastamike1118 (04/30/09 02:51 AM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Absence of desire... and why this may not be a good thing. [Re: Middleman]
    #10260045 - 04/30/09 02:53 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Middleman said:
Right but no one finds Nirvana without complete selfless compassion.




How are you defining compassion?  IMO it seems to be merely another way of keeping a desire to help others.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleMiddlemanM

Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 8,388
Re: Absence of desire... and why this may not be a good thing. [Re: deCypher]
    #10260066 - 04/30/09 02:58 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

This stuff is hard to talk about but compassion is simply being the other.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleMastamike1118
Male

Registered: 03/29/07
Posts: 2,010
Re: Absence of desire... and why this may not be a good thing. [Re: deCypher]
    #10260074 - 04/30/09 02:59 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

so do you think we can actually help someone? sure we could superficially give them money give them a house... but all these things have effects that may add more stress to the person if nothing else...

only thing i could think of would be saving a life but even then you are causing more trouble for someone who tried to kill themselves and for someone who was about to get hit by a car you are keeping him attached to samsara or the game of humanity... everything that is good also has negative things that go with it


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Absence of desire... and why this may not be a good thing. [Re: Mastamike1118]
    #10260096 - 04/30/09 03:03 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Middleman said:
This stuff is hard to talk about but compassion is simply being the other.




Take this to its logical extension and you have the Hive Mind; an ant colony comprised of a singular consciousness emerged out of the sum of the parts of the many ants.  The trouble with this is that what's good for the whole (or the One) is not necessarily what's good for the individual.

Quote:

Mastamike1118 said:
so do you think we can actually help someone?




Death alleviates all suffering...


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleMastamike1118
Male

Registered: 03/29/07
Posts: 2,010
Re: Absence of desire... and why this may not be a good thing. [Re: Middleman]
    #10260103 - 04/30/09 03:05 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Middleman said:
This stuff is hard to talk about but compassion is simply being the other.




it is possible to be yourself individually and be the other at the same time...there is no choice that you can make though regarding how you want to come across,basically no ego,so its not like you can choose to help the other person...if you end up helping them you didnt do it on purpose you simply were and the other person found himself help through you...


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleMastamike1118
Male

Registered: 03/29/07
Posts: 2,010
Re: Absence of desire... and why this may not be a good thing. [Re: Mastamike1118]
    #10260142 - 04/30/09 03:11 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

kill the father fuck the mother? ne one out there?lol


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Offlinelaserpig
Weedmaster_P

Registered: 04/28/09
Posts: 7,468
Last seen: 9 years, 6 months
Re: Absence of desire... and why this may not be a good thing. [Re: deCypher]
    #10260151 - 04/30/09 03:13 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

i think what we have here is your classic incomplete understanding of what buddhism actually teaches.

its a very nuanced philosophy. i can't claim to fully understand it but i know it's a much richer body of thought than what your impression of it seems to be ... and i have no idea what you meant by "narcissistic phantoms of your awareness."

basically what it come down to is that compassion for others is, far from being eliminated by their philosophy, actively encouraged in almost all of what they teach.


--------------------
Weedmaster P knows the truth.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Absence of desire... and why this may not be a good thing. [Re: laserpig]
    #10260166 - 04/30/09 03:16 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

laserpig said:
i think what we have here is your classic incomplete understanding of what buddhism actually teaches.




Am I correct in saying at the very least that they strive to eliminate desire?  If so, my point still stands.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleMiddlemanM

Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 8,388
Re: Absence of desire... and why this may not be a good thing. [Re: deCypher]
    #10260188 - 04/30/09 03:20 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

How can anyone do anything without desire? Of course that isn't what the Buddha taught.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleQuetzalcohuatl
Stranger

Registered: 03/16/09
Posts: 646
Re: Absence of desire... and why this may not be a good thing. [Re: Mastamike1118]
    #10260202 - 04/30/09 03:23 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

It is and it isn't.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Offlineandrewss
precariously aggrandized


Registered: 08/17/07
Posts: 8,722
Loc: ohio
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
Re: Absence of desire... and why this may not be a good thing. [Re: Middleman]
    #10260214 - 04/30/09 03:26 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah I was gonna say perhaps that is lumping too much together and calling it Buddhism or whatever.

Beyond that issue, I see what you are saying and I can agree with the real point you might be trying to make.

But a lot can be said about what you mean, to go out and help other people. And what sort of suffering should be alieviated, etc... a lot could be developed there. But yeah.....


--------------------
Jesus loves you.


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
InvisibleRahz
Alive Again
Male


Registered: 11/11/05
Posts: 8,010
Re: Absence of desire... and why this may not be a good thing. [Re: deCypher]
    #10260217 - 04/30/09 03:26 AM (12 years, 6 months ago)

I think the idea is that when a person lets go of a desire, like compassion, they are then able to exemplify it. IOW, a person isn't selflessly compassionate until they have no desire to be compassionate. Once the desire is gone, they find it's their nature to be compassionate. Within the desire to have compassion, there is duality, and it will prevent a person from being it.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


“I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather did. Not screaming in terror like the passengers in his car."


Extras: Filter Print Post Remind Me! Notify Moderator Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | Next >  [ show all ]

Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* a buddhist paradox Mystic_Cannibal 1,129 11 02/23/07 11:13 PM
by redgreenvines
* the root of suffering is desire
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 all )
Moonshoe 11,232 117 12/20/05 04:15 PM
by redgreenvines
* Buddha and the Eightfold Path OrgoneConclusion 862 18 02/25/08 09:02 AM
by WhiskeyClone
* The individualistic society
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 all )
curious mouse 5,003 102 02/07/11 11:51 PM
by Icelander
* The BIG Desire
( 1 2 3 all )
Source 4,434 52 12/06/06 07:55 PM
by Source
* Solution to the Paradox of the Stone
( 1 2 all )
shroomydan 3,569 28 04/01/07 03:10 PM
by spiritualemerg
* The Paradox of Philosophy
( 1 2 all )
Around In Circles 1,818 26 09/02/08 10:54 AM
by Around In Circles
* paradox not possible
( 1 2 3 all )
automanM 3,157 48 10/16/03 05:11 PM
by fireworks_god

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, Jokeshopbeard, DividedQuantum
2,827 topic views. 0 members, 2 guests and 4 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Print Topic | ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2021 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.034 seconds spending 0.007 seconds on 18 queries.