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InvisibleSwyfty Swyf
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Registered: 02/20/09
Posts: 7,113
Loc: North Alabama
Is faith a crutch for believers?
    #10255130 - 04/29/09 10:59 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Why do so many believers insist that they are correct about God's existence?

Webster's defines faith as something that is believed with strong conviction.

Of course, religious refrences' definition of faith are very different from Webster's definition.

The definition of faith according to Bible concordances is "being sure of what you hope for and certain of things even if you cannot see them."

I have also heard faith defined by Christians as being "the substance of things hoped for, and the evidence of things not seen."

Are these religiously-based definitions of faith to blame for so many believers' tendencies to be intolerant to the idea of their beliefs being scientifically unsupported?


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If you build it they will shrug.
:shrug:

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InvisibledeCypher
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Registered: 02/10/08
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Re: Is faith a crutch for believers? [Re: Swyfty Swyf]
    #10255143 - 04/29/09 11:02 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I believe faith can be conducive to a happy life; I don't believe it meshes well with discerning truth from falsity or helping make clear our epistemology.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Is faith a crutch for believers? [Re: Swyfty Swyf]
    #10255158 - 04/29/09 11:04 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

"The definition of faith according to Bible concordances is "being sure of what you hope for and certain of things even if you cannot see them."

Does it say this in the Bible?


"Are these religiously-based definitions of faith to blame for so many believers' tendencies to be intolerant to the idea of their beliefs being scientifically unsupported?

In my experience, Christians, in their mind, know there is a God, but they don't know how to explain why or how they know.


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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Is faith a crutch for believers? [Re: Poid]
    #10255403 - 04/29/09 11:49 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Christians, in their mind, know there is a God,

You nailed it.


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Is faith a crutch for believers? [Re: Icelander]
    #10255556 - 04/29/09 12:14 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Yup! :doggystyle:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Offlineoneness4all
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Re: Is faith a crutch for believers? [Re: Icelander]
    #10255661 - 04/29/09 12:35 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Faith can be a start.
But after faith is a much more important state of consciousness.
This state I like to call knowingness.
Then you know from within that God is real.
Or that a truth were you read about is true.
Faith can not give you that.
To develop this knowingness you have to search for truth.
Just get a bible from the bookshelf and expect to find all the answers is not enough.
When you really want to find answers and truth you have to search for it.
You can use the library or the internet for that.
And then you get the books or internet pages that resonate with you.
You only except what feels good inside.
From that moment on, you will become more and more intuitive.
And you will get more discernment.
And then after some time you will develope this knowingness were i talk about.
From that moment on no one or nothing can fool you into believing in something that is not real.
Becourse you will feel from within if its real or not.
That's wy Jesus said the Kingdom of God is within you.
When you follow this path then you will become closer to this Kingdom.
This Kingdom is in reality a state of consiousness namely the Christ Consciousness.

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Offlinesandman_130
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Re: Is faith a crutch for believers? [Re: Icelander]
    #10255667 - 04/29/09 12:36 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Christians, in their mind, know there is a God,

You nailed it.




God lives in your mind.


--------------------
:mushroom2::mushroom2::mushroom2:"There is a world beyond ours, a world that is far away, nearby, and invisible. And there is where God lives, where the dead live, the spirits and the saints, a world where everything has already happened and everything is known. That world talks. It has a language of its own. I report what it says. The sacred mushroom takes me by the hand and brings me to the world where everything is known. It is they, the sacred mushrooms, that speak in a way I can understand.":mushroom2::mushroom2::mushroom2:

:sunny::mushroom2:Maria Sabina:mushroom2::sunny:

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Is faith a crutch for believers? [Re: sandman_130]
    #10255698 - 04/29/09 12:41 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

WTF is God? :confused:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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OfflineJethro Tull
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Re: Is faith a crutch for believers? [Re: oneness4all]
    #10255719 - 04/29/09 12:45 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

oneness4all said:
Faith can be a start.
But after faith is a much more important state of consciousness.
This state I like to call knowingness.
Then you know from within that God is real.
Or that a truth were you read about is true.
Faith can not give you that.
To develop this knowingness you have to search for truth.





Hey man, welcome to the Shroomery.  Nice post.  :thumbup:

Faith is not the goal.
Faith is a bridge to the truth.
Once you reach the other side, why would you want to go back?
The bridge is no-more, and you are no longer attached to it.


--------------------
..and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make.

DC at:  Oneness

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InvisibleSwyfty Swyf
Shrugsy Shrugs


Registered: 02/20/09
Posts: 7,113
Loc: North Alabama
Re: Is faith a crutch for believers? [Re: oneness4all]
    #10256627 - 04/29/09 03:26 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

oneness4all said:
Faith can be a start.
But after faith is a much more important state of consciousness.
This state I like to call knowingness.
Then you know from within that God is real.
Or that a truth were you read about is true.
Faith can not give you that.
To develop this knowingness you have to search for truth.
Just get a bible from the bookshelf and expect to find all the answers is not enough.
When you really want to find answers and truth you have to search for it.
You can use the library or the internet for that.
And then you get the books or internet pages that resonate with you.
You only except what feels good inside.
From that moment on, you will become more and more intuitive.
And you will get more discernment.
And then after some time you will develope this knowingness were i talk about.
From that moment on no one or nothing can fool you into believing in something that is not real.
Becourse you will feel from within if its real or not.
That's wy Jesus said the Kingdom of God is within you.
When you follow this path then you will become closer to this Kingdom.
This Kingdom is in reality a state of consiousness namely the Christ Consciousness.




I would also like to welcome you to the Shroomery, and I mean that with all sincerity, but I do not feel that your post holds any water.

Thank you for supporting my theory that faith in its true definition is just not enough for many believers.

Your ideas are typical of the exact kind of distorted and unhealthy thinking to which I was referring in my original post.

If God created us to have critical thinking skills, why would He expect us to believe in His existence, when the very idea of a Divine Creator actually creates more questions than it poses to answer.

Would a wise God not want us to be wise and use our common sense, which should alert us to the fact that there is no proof of His existence?

Should the theory of God's existence not remain a theory in our own minds, lest we become wrongly persuaded that many impossible things may be possible?


--------------------
If you build it they will shrug.
:shrug:

Edited by Swyfty Swyf (05/18/09 06:24 AM)

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Is faith a crutch for believers? [Re: Swyfty Swyf]
    #10256797 - 04/29/09 03:57 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Faith can be a comforting influence in difficult or uncertain times.  But if it is authentic, it can also challenge us to stand up for what is right in the face of injustice.

I think the term "faith" is misleading.  "Faith" is how the Greek word "pistis" is translated in the New Testament, but a more accurate translation would be "faithfulness."  It is not certainty.  In fact, it is rather juxtaposed against certainty.  It is a force which moves us to devote ourselves to something higher than ourselves.  Thus, when we use translation, and "faith the size of mustard seed" becomes "faithfulness the size of a mustard seed," we see that Jesus is quite correct about its ability to move mountains.


--------------------

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Invisibledaytripper23
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Registered: 06/22/05
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Re: Is faith a crutch for believers? [Re: Swyfty Swyf]
    #10257254 - 04/29/09 05:25 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

The institution of Christianity and its reactionary counterparts have confused the issue.

Check out Kierkegaard or Camus for a more realistic approach to faith. Basically, they were not so happy with the situation; so perhaps this might have you wonder...

Personally, I do not believe that it is necessarily a crutch, but more fundamentally, as something necessary for action in a world that is insensible to us. I see that faith as a burden, and in the same way, the flip-side of personal responsibility.

Here, there is no appeal to the universe, you - do not make sense

Rejecting faith upon principal is so far in my experience and observation, to fall into what Jean Paul Sartre called "bad faith" - an unacknowledged, yet conscious faith. (Sartre rejected the Freudian unconscious) This would be to appeal to a "sensibility of the universe", or a "rational rationality", rather than taking responsibility for arbitrary (self-centered) actions.


--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!

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InvisibleSwyfty Swyf
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Registered: 02/20/09
Posts: 7,113
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Re: Is faith a crutch for believers? [Re: daytripper23]
    #10257318 - 04/29/09 05:37 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

daytripper23 said:
Personally, I do not believe that it is necessarily a crutch, but more fundamentally, as something necessary for action in a world that is insensible to us. I see that faith as a burden, and in the same way, the flip-side of personal responsibility.

Here, there is no appeal to the universe, you - do not make sense






I am not sure I follow you.  I think I understand that you consider faith a unifying force for Christians, but what does the "you - do not make sense" part mean?


--------------------
If you build it they will shrug.
:shrug:

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InvisibleSwyfty Swyf
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Posts: 7,113
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Re: Is faith a crutch for believers? [Re: Silversoul]
    #10257337 - 04/29/09 05:40 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Faith can be a comforting influence in difficult or uncertain times.  But if it is authentic, it can also challenge us to stand up for what is right in the face of injustice.

I think the term "faith" is misleading.  "Faith" is how the Greek word "pistis" is translated in the New Testament, but a more accurate translation would be "faithfulness."  It is not certainty.  In fact, it is rather juxtaposed against certainty.  It is a force which moves us to devote ourselves to something higher than ourselves.  Thus, when we use translation, and "faith the size of mustard seed" becomes "faithfulness the size of a mustard seed," we see that Jesus is quite correct about its ability to move mountains.



This seems like a rational idea, aside from the moving mountains part.

Regardless of whether we refer to "faith" or "faithfulness," who is moving mountains?


--------------------
If you build it they will shrug.
:shrug:

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Is faith a crutch for believers? [Re: Swyfty Swyf]
    #10257391 - 04/29/09 05:54 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I have seen bulldozers and dynamite (science and engineering) move a mountain, but never faith or faithfulness or faithfulosity.


--------------------

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Is faith a crutch for believers? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10257406 - 04/29/09 05:58 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Well, those scientists and engineers probably had faith that their bulldozers and dynamite sticks would move the mountain. :shrug:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Is faith a crutch for believers? [Re: Swyfty Swyf]
    #10257413 - 04/29/09 05:59 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Its what Albert Camus called "the Absurd". That's the word I use at least:

Quote:

Absurdism is a philosophy stating that the efforts of humanity to find meaning in the universe ultimately fail (and hence are absurd), because no such meaning exists, at least in relation to the individual.




This is self referential, so you do not make sense either.

Absurdism does not necessarily extend as far as the leap of faith (Camus). But Kierkegaard, probably the "founder" of absurdism, did conclude that this was eventually "necessary". To very quickly sum it up, absurdism is that knowledge that "nothing can be known" (and so self-referentially as well), and faith is a response, or surrender to that. That's a great over simplification (hence the quotes), but hopefully you get the idea.

I also understand where Silversoul is coming from too. There is a good Alan Watts quote on that, relevant to your phrasing in the title:

"Faith is a state of openness or trust. To have faith is to trust yourself to the water. When you swim you don't grab hold of the water, because if you do you will sink and drown. Instead you relax, and float. And the attitude of faith is the very opposite of clinging to belief, of holding on. In other words, a person who is fanatic in matters of religion, and clings to certain ideas about the nature of God and the universe, becomes a person who has no faith at all. Instead they are holding tight. But the attitude of faith is to let go, and become open to truth, whatever it might turn out to be."

It seems that by somehow misappropriating faith and belief in this kind of sense, a person could easily end up on a "crutch" of bad faith. To get a definite answer you would have to be more specific as to the relation (and that is first granting that they are not the same thing). But faith, perhaps it is in itself just as much a crutch, only it would be my personal understanding that this is not "positive or negative" thing, but simply leverage. So really, like the many definitions in your post, it depends on the language.



--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!

Edited by daytripper23 (04/29/09 06:49 PM)

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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Is faith a crutch for believers? [Re: daytripper23]
    #10257460 - 04/29/09 06:08 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I was just pulling that from the wiki by the way; so there ya go.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absurdism


--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!

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InvisibleSwyfty Swyf
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Posts: 7,113
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Re: Is faith a crutch for believers? [Re: daytripper23]
    #10258252 - 04/29/09 08:09 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I didn't say you didn't make sense.

I am picking up what you are laying down, after fishing through your excessive use of quotes.

What do I not make sense about?

The religious-based definitions of faith are what I believe to be a crutch for believers, where people feel compelled to believe that evidence is not needed to make truth out of their beliefs, because the faith actually is evidence.


--------------------
If you build it they will shrug.
:shrug:

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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: Is faith a crutch for believers? [Re: Swyfty Swyf]
    #10258755 - 04/29/09 09:15 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Well, apparently I have not been excessive enough, because you are still misunderstanding what I mean.

I was not addressing whether you or I make sense in the context of this thread.

I am saying that there is no sense to your basic or fundamental reality. No truth with a capital T, or at least none that you can make sense of. Faith is (though perhaps not limited to) knowing this, and choosing to act anyway. So in faith, the act is not attributed to some "sensible universe" or "sensible circumstance", it is attributed to oneself, ones conscious decision.

For example, if you instead attribute your actions to some mechanism, you really are not taking responsibility for this. You are saying I am justified because the circumstance or environment willed it, not me.

Generally speaking, this is why faith is a sensitive subject; it calls attention to where a person vests his/her responsibility.

Of course there are plenty of "laws" or understandings of mechanisms that we effectively make use of. This is not a contradiction to that. In the context of what I have been describing, you could say we use these laws to accomplish our basic goals, which is to posit our arbitrary values upon the world.

The latter is what I am focusing upon.

I would not posit faith as a specified path though. My thoughts here are simply deconstructive of anyone that seems to be in bad faith. Someone who denies responsibility, whether it is shirking this responsibility to the idea of a "rational universe", or God. I say whats the difference? These are both projections of a self (sense) that a person does not wish to acknowledge.

So what I mean by the previous statement, is that your existence does not make sense in itself. Fittingly, there is no existential act (a determination of value) that is not ostensibly arbitrary.

Now, what you might additionally make of this, (your self) is where the discussion of God, nothingness, and all the rest might begin.

Anyways, I am only elaborating upon what I meant, and you are obviously free to think whatever/however you like.


--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!

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InvisibleSwyfty Swyf
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Registered: 02/20/09
Posts: 7,113
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Re: Is faith a crutch for believers? [Re: daytripper23]
    #10258827 - 04/29/09 09:25 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I think that whether or not this existence makes sense, we can all attest to its validity.

I believe the trouble comes into play when people attest to the validity of things outside of this reality, with no evidence.


--------------------
If you build it they will shrug.
:shrug:

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Offlinerushofblood
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Re: Is faith a crutch for believers? [Re: Poid]
    #10357199 - 05/18/09 05:44 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Well, those scientists and engineers probably had faith that their bulldozers and dynamite sticks would move the mountain. :shrug:




That wouldn't be faith defined as "substance of things hoped for, evidence of things not seen".

I'd say they believed in their mechanical means based on existing evidence.
i.e. SEEING a bulldozer or dynamite move a mountain.

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InvisibleGlenners
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Re: Is faith a crutch for believers? [Re: daytripper23]
    #10357403 - 05/18/09 07:32 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I think faith is a crutch. In bad times people turn to their imaginary friend for good feelings where ever they are. You're about to be killed? With faith you're probably less scared to die since you think you'll go to heaven in a little while.

I think some believers take advantage of people who need a crutch and get them believing in god. Like AA, people in jail.

It's also a crutch for doing wrong. All of a sudden when you do something wrong you can just go to a box and have god heal you of all wrong doing and bad feelings.

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OfflineSpaceMadness
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Re: Is faith a crutch for believers? [Re: Glenners]
    #10357451 - 05/18/09 07:54 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Yes it is a crutch.

My mother is dead; She is now in heaven free of illness.
My car got stolen; The culprit will find himself in a hot place soon enough.
I'm one of billions upon billions of animals on this planet; I am special because a supernatural entity loves me.

That's not to say secular minded folks do not have their own crutches in the form of "It's not so bad my mom died, she lived a good life" type reasoning. It does seem to be less reliant on the supernatural though and instead self serving philosophy! :P


--------------------
"Cripes, those guys are being illogical! To the Rationality Mobile!"

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OfflineSventington
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Re: Is faith a crutch for believers? [Re: SpaceMadness]
    #10357502 - 05/18/09 08:11 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I guess it can be. It's nice some can find comfort in the concept of God when dealing with something like death or trauma though. Feeling like everything will be ok, something cares. There being a reason and a meaning. Even if the belief is fruitless, I don't have issues with it. Sure it can and has been twisted to some ugly ends, but I think in the majority of cases it ends up being pretty harmless.

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InvisibleGlenners
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Re: Is faith a crutch for believers? [Re: Sventington]
    #10357577 - 05/18/09 08:34 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

religion is NOT harmless.

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Invisibleshowme
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Re: Is faith a crutch for believers? [Re: daytripper23]
    #10361702 - 05/18/09 10:41 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

i apologize for not reading any posts under the original.

yes, many christians don't bother studying up on the bible or searching for information that supports their belief, and they get away with it through our the modern church's persistence that faith is all you need..

christianity is pretty wrong in many ways i doubt ANYONE to dispute that these days... maybe people could take a more open minded approach to what christianity actually offers, instead of always seeing the church and its flaws. with this many followers, it might be worth a look into. no ones demanding you accept anything blindly... there's a whole apologetics section in literature for this


--------------------
Imagination is the organ of meaning.

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My Elysium Trips 1,824 33 03/17/18 07:56 PM
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