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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: Personalisms, flames and trolling. [Re: deCypher]
    #10260451 - 04/30/09 03:10 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
As far as trolling goes you could make the case that any thread where you are looking for debate is trolling. I think trolling is a very healthy practice. No one forces anyone to respond to any post.




Yes; I'm inclined to say that the concepts of trolling, flaming, and personalisms are not well-defined enough to serve as a good basis for forum rules.

Quote:

Mr. Mushrooms said:
You're forgetting civility and its link to discourse.  That's not too surprising given your posts.  The consensus so far seems to indicate a desire for flames and flaming, i.e. less rules.  Not too surprising given the make-up of the forum.  Those with any maturity would eschew such an idea on the grounds that it doesn't promote civil discussion.




MM, you have given me some food to think on.  I do agree that civility is a superb path towards passioned, intelligent discourse, but I believe that the civility of civil posters and the intelligent remarks of decent philosophers on this board will remain untouched by the lifting of a nebulous rule that only seems to promote dissension and discord.

Quote:

Mr. Mushrooms said:
The rabble wants to fight?  :eek:  What a shock.  :smirk:




Let them.  Unless you are part of the rabble, what business is it to you?  One should not have to be scared of other people's words.  (and I think without the rabble this forum would be rather empty :tongue:)

At any rate I'm not calling for any drastically immediate changes to be made; only that we openly debate what a good forum rule ought to be.




We're on opposite sides of the fence here.  You're an idealist; I'm a pragmatist.  It is commonly known throughout the Internet that trolls and flaming drive away decent people and ruin good discussions.  Why you think it would be any different here is beyond me.  What you're asking is to make this forum more like the OTD.  And while it can be, at times, something quite similar, it is during those times the least productive and civil discourse can be found.

The notion is beyond unreasonable; it-is-insane.  It would be like holding a symposium in the middle of a pie fight.

Disaster.  Only a philosophy forum could discuss insane merits of flaming as if they had positive attributes.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Personalisms, flames and trolling. [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #10261602 - 04/30/09 10:15 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Mr. Mushrooms said: Only a philosophy forum could discuss insane merits of flaming as if they had positive attributes.




I would consent to permit moderation of flaming if you can present me with a logically precise definition of flaming; as I've said before I do not think this concept can be adequately pinned down enough to be used fairly.

I realize you would probably counter with the fact that most flaming is self-evident (like pornography, one knows it when one sees it).  However I would rather have more freedom in the forum at the expense of some on-topic flames than impose an arbitrary censorship that ultimately relies upon something so meaningless and unsubstantiated as the moderator's discretion: the moderator must, after all, have his or her own subjective rules to determine which posts satisfy and which do not, and if these rules exist and are rational then it would make more sense to explicitly state them in the forum rules.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Personalisms, flames and trolling. [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #10262261 - 04/30/09 12:28 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Truth claim #1:  A member was needled by bringing up a past error.  No disagreement.




A debt is not an error. If you don't pay your credit card bill for long enough, does that absolve you of payment?

Answer: no.

Was the member in question offered to clear the debt with a 1% repayment?

Answer: yes.

Is this generous and more than fair?

Answer: My casual polls say yes.


Quote:

Truth claim #2:  Said member had spent time in a mental institution.  Evidence is found at the Shroomery, particularly in the Anon. forum.



This erroneous on so many counts as to be ridiculous - even for you.

1. Debt payment reminders started long before the Anon Forum was formed. Of course you know this.

2. I have only read like three or four threads in Anon - and had no knowledge of said member's medical history - nor is that a rational assumption that every poster become aware of every other member's mental /emotional state.

But of course, once again you know this.

3. Intent? This is where you go so far afield as to bypass ludicrous and venture into vindictive fantasy-land. Asking for repayment does not = attempting to send someone to the funny farm. Whoever publicly makes such as unfounded assumption is likely ill themselves.

4. Yesterday, I searched for causes of mental breakdown and failed to find any link to reading a post. As you clearly stated that your meanness to Veritas did not drive her away, but my calling for one to make good on a promise was enough to cause madness. You contradict your own faulty premise.

Why would you come up with all of these ill-thought and substance-less malignments to attempt to besmirch another member? Such a dark attack is clearly outside of the norm.

This does not seem like the actions of a stable mind.

How is this? Convince this forum of your allegations and I will voluntarily leave forever. Fail - and you voluntarily leave forever. Of course, this is too fair and I seriously doubt you will accept because I suspect even YOU know you have gone too far (and not for the first time).


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Edited by OrgoneConclusion (04/30/09 12:41 PM)

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Personalisms, flames and trolling. [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #10262291 - 04/30/09 12:34 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

You're forgetting civility and its link to discourse.




:rofl2:


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: Personalisms, flames and trolling. [Re: deCypher]
    #10267482 - 05/01/09 07:58 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

Mr. Mushrooms said: Only a philosophy forum could discuss insane merits of flaming as if they had positive attributes.




I would consent to permit moderation of flaming if you can present me with a logically precise definition of flaming; as I've said before I do not think this concept can be adequately pinned down enough to be used fairly.

I realize you would probably counter with the fact that most flaming is self-evident (like pornography, one knows it when one sees it).  However I would rather have more freedom in the forum at the expense of some on-topic flames than impose an arbitrary censorship that ultimately relies upon something so meaningless and unsubstantiated as the moderator's discretion: the moderator must, after all, have his or her own subjective rules to determine which posts satisfy and which do not, and if these rules exist and are rational then it would make more sense to explicitly state them in the forum rules.




I like the logic behind that; it's sound.

A precise definition is easily found:  any comment or smiley that confers a negative idea about the intended victim.  Direct comments, or implications, about someone's mental health or level of intelligence, name-calling, etc.  The sidewise barb is already being used, e.g. pointing to a third party opponent and lauding his mental health implying his opponent is mentally unstable.

The idea that we cannot nail down a flame is kin to saying we cannot nail down an ad hominem attack.  I hope you're not implying that.


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: Personalisms, flames and trolling. [Re: johnm214]
    #10267495 - 05/01/09 08:06 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
Also, MM, why are you calling out people in your post?  Chill out.  The unnamed members portion had nothing to do with anything.

And Orgone and MM, what does any of this have to do with anything?  If orgone is one of the unnamed members (though I'm guessing not since MM said he ignored those guys and he's replying to him) or friends with him, then  it seems like your just trying to cause trouble for no reason by bringing it up. 

WHo cares guys, discuss the topic.




I called no one out.  I was called out and am responding in kind.  The issues being discussed present simple examples of the personalisms I am talking about.  I've been called a troll for starting this thread.  The idea, of course, is risible.

OrgoneConclusion has replied to me.  Should I ignore that and let him have the last word?  I won't, but I do see replies in terms of priority.  I like to, when possible, answer comments in order of importance or time.  Time that has, unfortunately, run out.

:hatsoff:


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Personalisms, flames and trolling. [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #10267499 - 05/01/09 08:08 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Aren't these implications about someone's mental health?

Quote:

Mr. Mushrooms said:

Typos abound.  Sometimes that's an indicator of emotional stress.

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Mr. Niburu was leading young people around with nonsense that I thought dangerous and I challenged him on one of his fantasies. There was no evil plan. I gave him half a dozen chances to make good by paying off 1% of the bet - that is how mean a SOB I am.




Did you know that gambling is a symptom of a sociopath?

http://www.mcafee.cc/Bin/sb.html



  • Glibness and Superficial Charm

  • Manipulative and Conning
    They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors as permissible. They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They may dominate and humiliate their victims.

  • Grandiose Sense of Self
    Feels entitled to certain things as "their right."

  • Pathological Lying
    Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. Can create, and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. Extremely convincing and even able to pass lie detector tests.

  • Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt
    A deep seated rage, which is split off and repressed, is at their core. Does not see others around them as people, but only as targets and opportunities. Instead of friends, they have victims and accomplices who end up as victims. The end always justifies the means and they let nothing stand in their way.

  • Shallow Emotions
    When they show what seems to be warmth, joy, love and compassion it is more feigned than experienced and serves an ulterior motive. Outraged by insignificant matters, yet remaining unmoved and cold by what would upset a normal person. Since they are not genuine, neither are their promises.

  • Incapacity for Love

  • Need for Stimulation
    Living on the edge. Verbal outbursts and physical punishments are normal. Promiscuity and gambling are common.

  • Callousness/Lack of Empathy
    Unable to empathize with the pain of their victims, having only contempt for others' feelings of distress and readily taking advantage of them.

  • Poor Behavioral Controls/Impulsive Nature
    Rage and abuse, alternating with small expressions of love and approval produce an addictive cycle for abuser and abused, as well as creating hopelessness in the victim. Believe they are all-powerful, all-knowing, entitled to every wish, no sense of personal boundaries, no concern for their impact on others.

  • Early Behavior Problems/Juvenile Delinquency
    Usually has a history of behavioral and academic difficulties, yet "gets by" by conning others. Problems in making and keeping friends; aberrant behaviors such as cruelty to people or animals, stealing, etc.

  • Irresponsibility/Unreliability
    Not concerned about wrecking others' lives and dreams. Oblivious or indifferent to the devastation they cause. Does not accept blame themselves, but blames others, even for acts they obviously committed.

  • Promiscuous Sexual Behavior/Infidelity
    Promiscuity, child sexual abuse, rape and sexual acting out of all sorts.

  • Lack of Realistic Life Plan/Parasitic Lifestyle
    Tends to move around a lot or makes all encompassing promises for the future, poor work ethic but exploits others effectively.

  • Criminal or Entrepreneurial Versatility
    Changes their image as needed to avoid prosecution. Changes life story readily.


I'm not saying anything about you.  I'm just sayin'.




--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: Personalisms, flames and trolling. [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10267519 - 05/01/09 08:19 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Because they may not be applicable.  The idea that promiscuity and gambling are indicators of a sociopath has been on my mind for quite sometime now.  Practice hyperliteralism and see how it works out.


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Personalisms, flames and trolling. [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #10267643 - 05/01/09 09:12 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

So I could be making any implications about anyone, and then hide behind the same excuse: what I said about them might not be applicable. :shrug:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Personalisms, flames and trolling. [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #10267824 - 05/01/09 10:09 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion has replied to me.  Should I ignore that and let him have the last word? 




Of course not, you should make up a fifth malicious lie about me and use your connections to protect you from any repercussions.

More importantly, you should duck my challenge as we both know the outcome.


--------------------

Edited by OrgoneConclusion (05/01/09 10:17 AM)

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Personalisms, flames and trolling. [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10267835 - 05/01/09 10:12 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

So I could be making any implications about anyone, and then hide behind the same excuse: what I said about them might not be applicable.




You could, but then again you are not a coward. You always talk straight and say what you mean. :thumbup:


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: Personalisms, flames and trolling. [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10268352 - 05/01/09 11:50 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
So I could be making any implications about anyone, and then hide behind the same excuse: what I said about them might not be applicable. :shrug:




One thought can remind one of another.  That's how association works.  "Hiding" as you are using it is how projection works. 

It is altogether different when one attempts to remain inside the rules of the forum than when one blatantly disregards authority and rules designed to promote civility.

What would you call this:

Quote:

This does not seem like the actions of a stable mind.




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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: Personalisms, flames and trolling. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10268421 - 05/01/09 12:02 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

So I could be making any implications about anyone, and then hide behind the same excuse: what I said about them might not be applicable.




You could, but then again you are not a coward. You always talk straight and say what you mean. :thumbup:





Precisely, although others may infer different motives, especially if they have been schooled (read: influenced) by another poster.  That's the way insinuation works.  Hadn't you heard?

You're following me around now from thread to thread making insinuating remarks.  What's your motive?

I'll get to your substantive replies to me when I get a chance.

In the meantime let me inform you of something.  When I was here last time it had to do with certain circumstances of my life that were outside my control.  Mushrooms, drugs and alcohol were places to hide from deep pain.  As a result, with a lettle needling, I could be make to explode.  You won't find that person anymore no matter how hard you try or look.  It has been years since I've been drunk or drugged and I come here primarily because I like mushrooms.  This forum is merely a diversion until they are fruiting again in full force.  When that happens, I won't be posting here very much (as far as I can tell).

I can't be entirely sure of your motives, but if you step back I'm sure you'll find these exchanges aren't interesting to most of the posters here.  They don't give a damn what you or I think of each other, or even how we post with one another.

In sum, that person you once knew is gone, only a fragment remains.  This is exceptionally hard to acknowledge if you are the type of person incapable of change or someone who holds onto grudges as if they were barter or gold.

:cheers:
MM


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: Personalisms, flames and trolling. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10271112 - 05/01/09 10:40 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

Truth claim #1:  A member was needled by bringing up a past error.  No disagreement.




A debt is not an error. If you don't pay your credit card bill for long enough, does that absolve you of payment?

Answer: no.

Was the member in question offered to clear the debt with a 1% repayment?

Answer: yes.

Is this generous and more than fair?

Answer: My casual polls say yes.




I understand your point but it seems like semantics.  If I buy something with a credit card I have no real money to buy with and the bill collector hounds me for years, I'd be the first to admit I made a mistake, i.e. I shouldn't have bought the item.

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

Truth claim #2:  Said member had spent time in a mental institution.  Evidence is found at the Shroomery, particularly in the Anon. forum.



This erroneous on so many counts as to be ridiculous - even for you.

1. Debt payment reminders started long before the Anon Forum was formed. Of course you know this.

2. I have only read like three or four threads in Anon - and had no knowledge of said member's medical history - nor is that a rational assumption that every poster become aware of every other member's mental /emotional state.

But of course, once again you know this.




When a member continually repeats they have information from the Anon forum, I would deduce they frequent it frequently, especially if they have numerous threads about themselves in it.  Any debt reminder prior to the information in the Anon forum would be different than after the fact if the debt collector knew about it.

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
3. Intent? This is where you go so far afield as to bypass ludicrous and venture into vindictive fantasy-land. Asking for repayment does not = attempting to send someone to the funny farm. Whoever publicly makes such as unfounded assumption is likely ill themselves.




People succumb to repeated harassment.  That is why there is a site-wide prohibition against it.  I don't know if you heard or not but in Mentor, Ohio a student killed himself on the advice of bullies.  People can push others "over the edge."  I know if it were me, I couldn't bear it if someone did that and I had some culpability in the case.  If a member claims repeatedly that another member is unbalanced and then repeatedly harasses same member what would you call it?  At best it looks like picking on a weakling; at worst it looks terribly vindictive.

Please note at this point I have been very careful to speak in generalities.  I am in no way assigning blame to you or speaking about you.

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
4. Yesterday, I searched for causes of mental breakdown and failed to find any link to reading a post. As you clearly stated that your meanness to Veritas did not drive her away, but my calling for one to make good on a promise was enough to cause madness. You contradict your own faulty premise.




Whether you could find it or not--it is there.  Please read carefully about what I said about Veritas.  I never admitted harassing her and I certainly did not drive her away.  Thanks for the boost to my ego but I'm simply not that powerful.

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Why would you come up with all of these ill-thought and substance-less malignments to attempt to besmirch another member? Such a dark attack is clearly outside of the norm.

This does not seem like the actions of a stable mind.

How is this? Convince this forum of your allegations and I will voluntarily leave forever. Fail - and you voluntarily leave forever. Of course, this is too fair and I seriously doubt you will accept because I suspect even YOU know you have gone too far (and not for the first time).




Let's not be dramatic.  I have no intention of leaving nor do I want you to leave provided you follow the rules of the forum.  All I want is peace.

Let's recap.

I started this thread to hash out some ideas I had about the forum and the way it has been, is being, and might be run.  I used some examples that might have referred to you, or might not.  It has always been my opinion that if certain members cannot get along with others they should be banned.  Conversely, the Shroomery has had many members who were banned, got a reprieve, and came back to cause more trouble.  Some were banned again and some weren't.  I'm much more authoritarian in my ways than this place has ever been, or likely will be.  As a result, in my view, we've lost some priceless members and retained some trolls.

I wish you nor anyone here any ill will.


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