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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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americans side with cheney and embrace torture...
    #10242878 - 04/27/09 01:41 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

new gallup and rasmussen polls show that cheney has succeeded in selling the merits of torture to the american ppl (no doubt with a little help from jack bauer).. and prolly beyond his wildest dreams...this also makes me doubt if cheneys' approval rating is still as low as it was on january 19...

earlier polls..such as the washington post poll taken last january still showed that 58% of americans opposed torture...but the new WAPO poll (video) shows opposition to torture down to 49%.. only a single point above the 48% that now support torture...

furthermore..the upsurge in public support for torture comes about even in the face of new evidence (NYTIMES) that the torture was conducted in order to extract false confessions to justify the iraq war...

so not only has america embraced torture.. it has embraced the use of torture as a false justification for imperialist warfare...after apparently having soundly rebuked bush/cheney last november.. america has bought the whole bush package lox stock & barrel in the last 3 months...

i say "apparently rebuked" because my opinion on why it has been so easy for cheney is pure economics ..IMAO..most americans wholeheartedly accept the fascist social and economic narratives.. and the torture issue has served as a reminder...and im curious about what you think caused this sudden upswing in popularity for bu$hco...


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Edited by Annapurna1 (04/27/09 04:14 PM)

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: americans side with cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #10242932 - 04/27/09 01:50 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

> most americans wholeheartedly accept the fascist social and economic narratives

I've been saying the same thing ever since Obama got elected.


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OfflineTGRR
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Re: americans side with cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Seuss]
    #10242952 - 04/27/09 01:54 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Okay, so America is corrupt root and branch.

We can stop bitching about the government.  It's the people that are fucked up.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: americans side with cheney and embrace torture... [Re: TGRR]
    #10243078 - 04/27/09 02:13 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

> It's the people that are fucked up.

For being sheep that blindly follow what the Cheneys and Obamas of the world tell them?  I don't know who to blame, to be honest... the politicians that take advantage of this ignorance, or the people for embracing their ignorance without any critical thought.


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OfflineTGRR
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Re: americans side with cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Seuss]
    #10243102 - 04/27/09 02:18 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> It's the people that are fucked up.

For being sheep that blindly follow what the Cheneys and Obamas of the world tell them?  I don't know who to blame, to be honest... the politicians that take advantage of this ignorance, or the people for embracing their ignorance without any critical thought.




Naw, for being torture perverts.

What the fuck does that have to do with Obama, Seuss?  Or Cheney?  If those polls are correct, then the problem - as I said - has NOTHING to do with politicians, and everything to do with a nation without principles (did you catch it that time, or are you still going to be stuck on a bullshit strawman argument?).  If they had principles, then it wouldn't matter what the hell Cheney or Obama said or did.

I honestly regret ever serving this nation in uniform.  It deserves whatever it gets.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: americans side with cheney and embrace torture... [Re: TGRR]
    #10243261 - 04/27/09 02:50 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Why would you even run those polls?

How worthless.


Is it just me or did they not even define torture, making the results meaningless.


People are almost universally against torture.  The debate is over what torture is (unfortunatly in the common lexicon rather than the relevant definitions, but that's as good as well get it seems).


Honestly, what good do those polls do?  How many people answering that poll thought "well waterboarding is in the news and waterboarding is called torture so I'll assume that's what we're talking about even though I don't think tis torture"?  How many of the pro torturers thought we should be stabbing people with bayonets and such? 


I just don't get why such a aworthless question would be answered.  The terms are so incredibly colored and strongly associated with certain things that its almost comp[letely meaningless in my opinion.

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: americans side with cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #10243278 - 04/27/09 02:53 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Actually, as usual, you are either being disingenuous or just can't read.  Those polls say nothing about supporting or being against torture.  They address public opinion towards investigations of abuses.

Nice, try though. Better luck next time.

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OfflineTGRR
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Re: americans side with cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Redstorm]
    #10243321 - 04/27/09 02:59 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
Actually, as usual, you are either being disingenuous or just can't read.  Those polls say nothing about supporting or being against torture.  They address public opinion towards investigations of abuses.

Nice, try though. Better luck next time.




Um...

Quote:

At the same time, 55% of Americans believe in retrospect that the use of the interrogation techniques was justified, while only 36% say it was not.




Your eyes.  Use them.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: americans side with cheney and embrace torture... [Re: TGRR]
    #10243348 - 04/27/09 03:03 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Whoops, I missed the Gallup link and just read the Rasmussen link.

Sorry Anna, statement retracted.

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OfflineSmackshadow
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Annapurna1]
    #10243496 - 04/27/09 03:28 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Ya, I think the polls are pretty worthless.  Without defining torture as a specific act (water boarding, nude triangle, exc.) in specific circumstances (getting admissions to a connection between 9/11 and Iraq)I don't think that anyone would have enough framework or context to answer a that question. 

I would also agree that t.v. shows such as 24 seem to promote ignoring civil rights, but I don't know how much T.V. effects personal behavior.


--------------------
The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all.
     
~H. L. Mencken~

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OfflineTGRR
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Smackshadow]
    #10243628 - 04/27/09 03:48 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Smackshadow said:
Ya, I think the polls are pretty worthless.  Without defining torture as a specific act (water boarding, nude triangle, exc.) in specific circumstances (getting admissions to a connection between 9/11 and Iraq)I don't think that anyone would have enough framework or context to answer a that question. 

I would also agree that t.v. shows such as 24 seem to promote ignoring civil rights, but I don't know how much T.V. effects personal behavior.




If people can't see that torture is wrong in principle, then they are not worth defending.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: TGRR]
    #10243703 - 04/27/09 04:00 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

If people can't see that torture is wrong in principle, then they are not worth defending.




In principle, torture isn't wrong. There are circumstances where it would be immoral to not torture someone.





Phred


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OfflineSmackshadow
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Phred]
    #10243770 - 04/27/09 04:08 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In principle, torture isn't wrong. There are circumstances where it would be immoral to not torture someone.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

IMO, that is only true if you define morality by a utilitarian principal, and only then if there is actually utility being gained from it.

I am not and utilitarian, and a refuse to give way to false pragmatism.

This might be a straw man argument, but I really can't think of a way torture is justified unless the benefits are greater than the harms which lead to my utilitarian argument.


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The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all.
     
~H. L. Mencken~

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OfflineTGRR
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Phred]
    #10243806 - 04/27/09 04:14 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Quote:

If people can't see that torture is wrong in principle, then they are not worth defending.




In principle, torture isn't wrong. There are circumstances where it would be immoral to not torture someone.





Yeah, for example, when you've had a guy detained for a year or three, he'll obviously know where a ticking time bomb is.

Nope, sorry, torture is wrong, even if "24" said otherwise.


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: americans side with cheney and embrace torture... [Re: TGRR]
    #10243863 - 04/27/09 04:22 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

TGRR said:
Quote:

Seuss said:
> It's the people that are fucked up.

For being sheep that blindly follow what the Cheneys and Obamas of the world tell them?  I don't know who to blame, to be honest... the politicians that take advantage of this ignorance, or the people for embracing their ignorance without any critical thought.




Naw, for being torture perverts.

What the fuck does that have to do with Obama, Seuss?  Or Cheney?  If those polls are correct, then the problem - as I said - has NOTHING to do with politicians, and everything to do with a nation without principles (did you catch it that time, or are you still going to be stuck on a bullshit strawman argument?).  If they had principles, then it wouldn't matter what the hell Cheney or Obama said or did.

I honestly regret ever serving this nation in uniform.  It deserves whatever it gets.




on the contrary..the politicians are not irrelevant ..bush and cheney are guilty of implementing fascist policies.. while obama could be faulted for failing to convince ppl that bu$hco is wrong...but that shouldnt even be obamas' responsibility..since bu$hco is de facto wrong to any civilized person..which most americans apparently arent...


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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Phred]
    #10243874 - 04/27/09 04:24 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Quote:

If people can't see that torture is wrong in principle, then they are not worth defending.




In principle, torture isn't wrong. There are circumstances where it would be immoral to not torture someone.





Phred




such as when the sun rises in the west...sorry phred..but the jack bauer scenario simply does not exist in reality...


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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: americans side with cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Redstorm]
    #10243908 - 04/27/09 04:30 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
Whoops, I missed the Gallup link and just read the Rasmussen link.

Sorry Anna, statement retracted.




apology accepted...however..another rasmussen poll shows 58% agree with cheney that releasing the torture memoes endangers national security...of course nothing could be further from the truth ..both bu$hcos' torture regime itself.. and the war justified by the false confessions it produced.. have served as recruiting tools for al-Q.. and it has given enemies an excuse to torture captured US POWs too...


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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Phred]
    #10244349 - 04/27/09 05:35 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Quote:

If people can't see that torture is wrong in principle, then they are not worth defending.




In principle, torture isn't wrong. There are circumstances where it would be immoral to not torture someone.





:rolleyes:

go on... such as?

I have to admit, I'm thinking of the worst people the bush admin tortured and how little good information was received from them and I'm just thinking... WTF dude? What the fuck? It's never immoral not to torture someone, just like it is never immoral not to rape someone or not to duct-tape someone up and force them into your trunk of your car.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: ScavengerType]
    #10244427 - 04/27/09 05:48 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

> go on... such as?

Somebody that creates a supervirus that will kill all mammalian life on the planet and has secretly planted the virus to be time released in the future unless they are made emperor of the planet.  In this extreme case, I suspect that torture, to find the location of the virus, would probably be acceptable, yes?


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OfflineTGRR
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Seuss]
    #10244483 - 04/27/09 06:01 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> go on... such as?

Somebody that creates a supervirus that will kill all mammalian life on the planet and has secretly planted the virus to be time released in the future unless they are made emperor of the planet.  In this extreme case, I suspect that torture, to find the location of the virus, would probably be acceptable, yes?




Back to the Jack Bauer argument.

If Al Jamadi was the would-be emperor, what now?  Ya beat him to death, now he CAN'T tell you where the virus is.

I mean, if we're dealing with hypotheticals.


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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: TGRR]
    #10244541 - 04/27/09 06:11 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

wouldn't faking to capitulate to his demands and then killing him be easier and more moral?


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: TGRR]
    #10244654 - 04/27/09 06:29 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

> Back to the Jack Bauer argument.

I made no claim otherwise.  However, the original premise which I was arguing against is that there is never a circumstance where it would be immoral to not torture someone.  I've provided a counter example, be it far fetched.  Part of the problem with words like "never" is that they remove all possibilities; something that is rarely true.  Of course, torture really isn't needed.  Waterboarding works extremely well and we don't have to worry about accidentally beating somebody to death before they talk.


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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Seuss]
    #10244703 - 04/27/09 06:37 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Well even if you didn't torture someone like that it wouldn't be immoral not to do so. There are different ways that could be more successful to get the information and prevent disaster but for some reason you would say it is immoral not to torture someone like that... wtf? It's not moral and it don't always work, the suggested solution I proposed would be far more effective, therefore utilizing torture instead would in fact be immoral.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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OfflineDeekay
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Seuss]
    #10244709 - 04/27/09 06:39 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

coming out of left field with a deontological perspective, i do not support any type of torture.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: ScavengerType]
    #10244834 - 04/27/09 06:57 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

> but for some reason you would say it is immoral not to torture someone like that... wtf?

I'm trying to get people to question what torture really is... we are so quick to toss the word around, but slow to define it... and rightly so, as torture is a moving goalpost depending upon the circumstances and the individual.  Not everything is black and white, right and wrong.  To say, "I would never support any type of torture" is ignorant.  Leaving bums out in the streets during the middle of winter is torture, but I don't see anybody offering to bring them home for a warm meal and nice warm bed to sleep in until summer.  Or are we talking about branding with a hot iron, pulling out fingernails, Roman style torture?  Do you not see the problem with making such a blanket statement regarding "torture" whatever that might be?


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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Seuss]
    #10244906 - 04/27/09 07:08 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I was under the impression that we were talking about US style torture like at minimum the techniques used at Gitmo to the maximum of the techniques used ad places like Abu Grhab. But if you want to blur the argument by saying that in your hypothetical scenario, they plan to evict the evil mad scientist in question and give bad references to anyone he calls to rent from so that he has to sleep out in the cold and that is torture, go right ahead. If torture is ineffective and it is used instead of other possibly more effective methods then that in and of itself is immoral no mater how torture is defined. Then there's the morality of what torture actually entails.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: TGRR]
    #10245199 - 04/27/09 07:49 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

TGRR said:
Quote:

Smackshadow said:
Ya, I think the polls are pretty worthless.  Without defining torture as a specific act (water boarding, nude triangle, exc.) in specific circumstances (getting admissions to a connection between 9/11 and Iraq)I don't think that anyone would have enough framework or context to answer a that question. 

I would also agree that t.v. shows such as 24 seem to promote ignoring civil rights, but I don't know how much T.V. effects personal behavior.




If people can't see that torture is wrong in principle, then they are not worth defending.



Quote:

TGRR said:
Quote:

Smackshadow said:
Ya, I think the polls are pretty worthless.  Without defining torture as a specific act (water boarding, nude triangle, exc.) in specific circumstances (getting admissions to a connection between 9/11 and Iraq)I don't think that anyone would have enough framework or context to answer a that question. 

I would also agree that t.v. shows such as 24 seem to promote ignoring civil rights, but I don't know how much T.V. effects personal behavior.




If people can't see that torture is wrong in principle, then they are not worth defending.




Huh?


How do you know they don't think torture is wrong?  You are using a word in a particular way.  The news uses it in different ways as does the administration and the geneva convention.

The whole point, like I explained earlier, is that you are presuming their subjective definition is the same as yours and judging people on that basis when its unlikely to be the case for signifigant majorities of the respondents.


I don't think many people support torture.  I also don't think waterboarding is torture per se.  I think people are presuming "torture" (when used in this context in realtion to our government) means waterboarding.


I'm guessing you'd get a very different answer if the question was  instead about taking a drill to someone or putting someone on the rack.



Maybe you think the right answer is torture is wrong, but I doubt very many people understand the distinction between the legal definitions and the common definitions and I bet many of them are conflating them when they hear these issues discussed.

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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: johnm214]
    #10245502 - 04/27/09 08:34 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

to be honest I think that the use of stress positions and the psy techniques like sleep/sensory deprivation are probibly worse cumulatively than waterboarding. People just think waterboarding is worse because it looks more brutal. I'm speaking from my interest in psychology and learnings about those techniques as well as psych experiments relating to them.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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OfflineTGRR
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Seuss]
    #10245530 - 04/27/09 08:39 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> Back to the Jack Bauer argument.

I made no claim otherwise.  However, the original premise which I was arguing against is that there is never a circumstance where it would be immoral to not torture someone.  I've provided a counter example, be it far fetched.  Part of the problem with words like "never" is that they remove all possibilities; something that is rarely true.  Of course, torture really isn't needed.  Waterboarding works extremely well and we don't have to worry about accidentally beating somebody to death before they talk.





How come waterboarding was torture in WWII, but isn't now?


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OfflineTGRR
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Seuss]
    #10245562 - 04/27/09 08:45 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> but for some reason you would say it is immoral not to torture someone like that... wtf?

I'm trying to get people to question what torture really is... we are so quick to toss the word around, but slow to define it... and rightly so, as torture is a moving goalpost depending upon the circumstances and the individual.  Not everything is black and white, right and wrong.  To say, "I would never support any type of torture" is ignorant.  Leaving bums out in the streets during the middle of winter is torture, but I don't see anybody offering to bring them home for a warm meal and nice warm bed to sleep in until summer.  Or are we talking about branding with a hot iron, pulling out fingernails, Roman style torture?  Do you not see the problem with making such a blanket statement regarding "torture" whatever that might be?




Dictionary definition:
Quote:


1.      the act of inflicting excruciating pain, as punishment or revenge, as a means of getting a confession or information, or for sheer cruelty.
2. a method of inflicting such pain.
3. Often, tortures. the pain or suffering caused or undergone.
4. extreme anguish of body or mind; agony.
5. a cause of severe pain or anguish.
–verb (used with object)
6. to subject to torture.
7. to afflict with severe pain of body or mind: My back is torturing me.
8. to force or extort by torture: We'll torture the truth from his lips!
9. to twist, force, or bring into some unnatural position or form: trees tortured by storms.
10. to distort or pervert (language, meaning, etc.).




Legal definition:

1.  Apparently, everything those ghouls Gonzales and Yoo argued for:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A37687-2004Dec30.html

2.  Civilized nations use this:

http://www.icrc.org/web/eng/siteeng0.nsf/html/69MJXC

Of course, we can't expect America to live up to civilized standards.  It's inexpedient.


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Offlinedeadmeat986
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: ScavengerType]
    #10245763 - 04/27/09 09:13 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

IMO a rat in a bucket on your chest would work real well?

I'd like to know from the people who are against torture; how many lives is it worth not to "torture"? 1, 10, 1000, 10,000 a city?


--------------------

"Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both. For a wounded man shall say to his assalent, "If I live I will kill you, if I die you are forgiven". Such is the Rule of Honor."

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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: deadmeat986]
    #10245782 - 04/27/09 09:16 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

deadmeat986 said:
IMO a rat in a bucket on your chest would work real well?

I'd like to know from the people who are against torture; how many lives is it worth not to "torture"? 1, 10, 1000, 10,000 a city?




Any number.  You either have principles, or you don't.


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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: TGRR]
    #10245814 - 04/27/09 09:22 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

<<How come waterboarding was torture in WWII, but isn't now?>>

Umm never was. the practice was not waterboarding but another practice involving forcing water into a POW's stomach. Not at all the samething.


--------------------

"Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both. For a wounded man shall say to his assalent, "If I live I will kill you, if I die you are forgiven". Such is the Rule of Honor."

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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: deadmeat986]
    #10245881 - 04/27/09 09:33 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

First, there is a false choice there because I know of no evidence that suggests torture actually produces reliable information, and I don't see how unreliable information saves people.

More over, I also don't see how a person who has been locked up for a year has any relevant information at all, and even if the ticking time bomb scenario exists, at what point are we willing to ignore not only our ideas, but fundamental principals of our entire government.


--------------------
The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all.
     
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: deadmeat986]
    #10245896 - 04/27/09 09:34 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

deadmeat986 said:
<<How come waterboarding was torture in WWII, but isn't now?>>

Umm never was. the practice was not waterboarding but another practice involving forcing water into a POW's stomach. Not at all the samething.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding#World_War_II

Quote:

Chase J. Nielsen, one of the U.S. airmen who flew in the Doolittle raid following the attack on Pearl Harbor, was subjected to waterboarding by his Japanese captors.[69] At their trial for war crimes following the war, he testified "Well, I was put on my back on the floor with my arms and legs stretched out, one guard holding each limb. The towel was wrapped around my face and put across my face and water poured on. They poured water on this towel until I was almost unconscious from strangulation, then they would let up until I'd get my breath, then they'd start over again… I felt more or less like I was drowning, just gasping between life and death."[29]




I can find a better source for Nielsen's quote, if you like.


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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Smackshadow]
    #10245904 - 04/27/09 09:35 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Smackshadow said:
First, there is a false choice there because I know of no evidence that suggests torture actually produces reliable information, and I don't see how unreliable information saves people.

More over, I also don't see how a person who has been locked up for a year has any relevant information at all, and even if the ticking time bomb scenario exists, at what point are we willing to ignore not only our ideas, but fundamental principals of our entire government.




Also, any population willing to condone torture isn't worth saving.


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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: deadmeat986]
    #10246006 - 04/27/09 09:45 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

deadmeat986 said:
<<How come waterboarding was torture in WWII, but isn't now?>>

Umm never was. the practice was not waterboarding but another practice involving forcing water into a POW's stomach. Not at all the samething.




they practiced both.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: TGRR]
    #10246010 - 04/27/09 09:46 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

World War II
During World War II both Japanese troops, especially the Kempeitai, and the officers of the Gestapo,[64] the German secret police, used waterboarding as a method of torture.[65] During the Japanese occupation of Singapore the Double Tenth Incident occurred. This included waterboarding, by the method of binding or holding down the victim on his back, placing a cloth over his mouth and nose, and pouring water onto the cloth. In this version, interrogation continued during the torture, with the interrogators beating the victim if he did not reply and the victim swallowing water if he opened his mouth to answer or breathe. When the victim could ingest no more water, the interrogators would beat or jump on his distended stomach.[66][67][68]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding#World_War_II

Sorry nice of you to leave that paragraph out. so you could prove your point of view. the form of water boarding is at the line of torture but we do not force them to swallow the water. unlike the Japanese did.


--------------------

"Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both. For a wounded man shall say to his assalent, "If I live I will kill you, if I die you are forgiven". Such is the Rule of Honor."

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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: deadmeat986]
    #10246022 - 04/27/09 09:47 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

deadmeat986 said:
World War II
During World War II both Japanese troops, especially the Kempeitai, and the officers of the Gestapo,[64] the German secret police, used waterboarding as a method of torture.[65] During the Japanese occupation of Singapore the Double Tenth Incident occurred. This included waterboarding, by the method of binding or holding down the victim on his back, placing a cloth over his mouth and nose, and pouring water onto the cloth. In this version, interrogation continued during the torture, with the interrogators beating the victim if he did not reply and the victim swallowing water if he opened his mouth to answer or breathe. When the victim could ingest no more water, the interrogators would beat or jump on his distended stomach.[66][67][68]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding#World_War_II

Sorry nice of you to leave that paragraph out. so you could prove your point of view. the form of water boarding is at the line of torture but we do not force them to swallow the water. unlike the Japanese did.





That's a different case.  I was referring specifically to the case involving Neilsen, which is a textbook description of current waterboarding techniques.

Please make an effort to be more honest about these things, m'kay?


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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: TGRR]
    #10246217 - 04/27/09 10:12 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

You even know the officers name? Yukio Asano 15 year hard labor. The water boarding we do is not pour into your lungs or sallowed. we do not beat you when water boarding so ether happen.


58The charge and specifications against Asano were:

Charge: That between 1 April, 1943 and 31 August, 1944, , at Fukoka Prisoner of War Branch Camp Number 3, Kyushu, Japan, the accused Yukio Asana, then a civilian serving as an interpreter with the Armed Forces of Japan, a nation then at war with the United States of America and its Allies, did violate the Laws and Customs of War.

Specification 1: That in or about July or August, 1943, the accused Yukio Asano, did willfully and unlawfully, brutally mistreat and torture Morris O. Killough, an American Prisoner of War, by beating and kicking him; by fastening him on a stretcher and pouring water up his nostrils.

Specification 2: That on or about 15 May, 1944, at Fukoka Prisoner of War Branch Camp
Number 3, Kyushu, Japan, the accused Yukio Asano, did, willfully and unlawfully, brutally mistreat and torture Thomas B. Armitage, William O Cash and Munroe Dave Woodall, American Prisoners of War by beating and kicking them, by forcing water into their mouths and noses; and by pressing lighted cigarettes against their bodies.

Specification 5. That between 1 April, 1943 and 31 December, 1943, the accused Yukio Asano, did, willfully and unlawfully, brutally mistreat and torture John Henry Burton, an American Prisoner of War, by beating him; and by fastening him head downward on a stretcher and forcing water into his nose...

... [We] were strapped to stretchers and warm water poured down our nostrils until we were about ready to pass out65

[They] strapped him to a stretcher and elevated his feet and then poured on his face so that it was almost impossible for him to get his breath.66

[The victim] was then taken into the corridor, strapped to a stretcher, which was tilted so that his head was toward the floor and feet resting on a nearby sink. Water was then poured down his nose and mouth for about twenty minutes...67


...None of the specifications were on water torture per se, but specifications 2 and 9 refer to forcing prisoners into a tank of water, 2 is 5 unknown pows, 9 is throwing American POW James E Martin into a tank of water. The testimony discussed infra ties those specifications into water torture...

...After taking me down into the hallway, they laid me out on a stretcher and strapped me on. The stretcher was then stood on end with my head almost touching the floor and my feet in the air. By this time, practically the entire Japanese personnel of the camp were present. I saw the Japanese Major who was the Commanding Officer and also the 1st Lt. Who was his assistant. This 1st Lt. Told me while I was strapped to the stretcher that he didn’t think I did it, but it was his duty to punish me anyway.

They then began pouring water over my face and at times it was almost impossible for me to breath without sucking in water. This torture continued for what must have been a half hour or an hour. Finally I was placed in a horizontal position and unstrapped. It was imopossible for me to arise so one of the prisoners...helped me.

Affidavit of John Henry Burton, Los Angeles, CA, 26 April, 1946, (civilian captured on Wake Island).


--------------------

"Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both. For a wounded man shall say to his assalent, "If I live I will kill you, if I die you are forgiven". Such is the Rule of Honor."

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: deadmeat986]
    #10246631 - 04/27/09 11:14 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

deadmeat986 said:
The water boarding we do is not pour into your lungs or sallowed.



According to a recently declassified investigation memo:

"Either in the normal application, or where countermeasures are used, we understand that water may enter — and may accumulate in — the detainee’s mouth and nasal cavity, preventing him from breathing. In addition, you have indicated that the detainee as a countermeasure may swallow water, possibly in significant quantities."

"...the detainee might aspirate some of the water, and the resulting water in the lungs might cause pneumonia."


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (04/27/09 11:27 PM)

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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #10246750 - 04/27/09 11:34 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I think you guys are looking at the poll slightly wrong. It doesn't say torture in the gallop pull it says "Harsh interrogation techniques" The way I read the pull is less about if torture is right or wrong and more a belief that the actual incidents in question are thought by a slight majority of Americans to not qualify as torture.

As for the Rasmussen poll, I would expect that. Americans for some reason dislike negative accusations at politicians by politicians. Theres been several studies that show if you imply your opponent is not telling the whole truth or is mistaken people read that as he's a liar, but if you call your opponent a liar, they tend to think negatively toward the accuser. The point being I think this is less about the issue at hand and more about the fact that people just don't want to rehash the bush admin. They want it left far far in the past as a distant memories of that bad time way back when and not think about it.

In otherwords what they want is what Obama said to start with, lets just forget the past and move on. That didn't happen, so American is groaning about hearing Bush Bush Bush Bush every time they turn on their TV's. Its like a 8 year prison sentence just got extended on us and we didn't even get a chance to commit a crime lol.

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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: CoolMojo]
    #10246909 - 04/28/09 12:01 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

^but the WAPO polls..which did call it "torture"..still showed a 10 point surge in support for torture over the past 3 months...how do you account for that?...


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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Smackshadow]
    #10247829 - 04/28/09 06:32 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

First, there is a false choice there because I know of no evidence that suggests torture actually produces reliable information, and I don't see how unreliable information saves people.




Maybe torture doesn't, but waterboarding certainly does. See the comments of Obama's guy, Dennis Blair, on the release of the classified documents regarding the waterboarding of KSM, Abu Zubaydah and that other guy.

To claim there is "no evidence" is a stunningly uninformed statement to make. There is plenty of evidence. The fact that the Library Tower in Los Angeles is still standing, for one.

However, we aren't talking about waterboarding here, but torture. I find it hilarious people are asking for examples of when it would be immoral not to torture people when we all remember September 11, 2001. If by drilling a few holes in Moussaoui's molars, the US had been able to round up Mohammed Atta and the rest of his gang before they boarded those planes, is any sane person reading this thread gonna claim the people who decided to rev up the dental drill were acting immorally?  Take a reality pill, Bill.





Phred


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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Phred]
    #10247836 - 04/28/09 06:34 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I was under the impression that the waterboarding info on the LA towers was gathered well after the plot was foiled.

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Phred]
    #10247854 - 04/28/09 06:43 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

If by drilling a few holes in Moussaoui's molars, the US had been able to round up Mohammed Atta and the rest of his gang before they boarded those planes, is any sane person reading this thread gonna claim the people who decided to rev up the dental drill were acting immorally?




Front teeth work much better than molars; each breath taken disturbs the exposed nerve endings resulting in nearly unbearable pain.  However, I see no reason to torture, even in the example you provide above, when non-torture interrogation techniques, such as waterboarding, are both safe and effective.


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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Seuss]
    #10247890 - 04/28/09 07:03 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

However, I see no reason to torture, even in the example you provide above, when non-torture interrogation techniques, such as waterboarding, are both safe and effective.




We're not talking of efficacy here, but of morality.






Phred


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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: TGRR]
    #10248480 - 04/28/09 10:17 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

TGRR said:
Quote:

deadmeat986 said:
IMO a rat in a bucket on your chest would work real well?

I'd like to know from the people who are against torture; how many lives is it worth not to "torture"? 1, 10, 1000, 10,000 a city?




Any number.  You either have principles, or you don't.




So you would let any number of people die, just so you have a clear conscious? I'd think you have a different opinion if it was you or people you know that could die. People with "principles" are the first ones who break  principles save their own ass. I think it's a fair trade, scumbag who has planned the deaths of 3000 people for one non scumbag.
one scumbag for you would be wroth it.


--------------------

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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #10248516 - 04/28/09 10:26 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

i was pointing out the fact what happen in ww2 was not the waterboarding as the cia does it now. We did not beat the person so water would be sallowed. waterboarding was only done no longer then 12 min session within 48 hrs of each.A pour only last seconds. not like the 25 min waterboarding in ww2.


--------------------

"Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both. For a wounded man shall say to his assalent, "If I live I will kill you, if I die you are forgiven". Such is the Rule of Honor."

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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: CoolMojo]
    #10249098 - 04/28/09 12:09 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

CoolMojo said:
  The way I read the pull is less about if torture is right or wrong and more a belief that the actual incidents in question are thought by a slight majority of Americans to not qualify as torture.








Exactly

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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #10249619 - 04/28/09 01:53 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

deadmeat986 said:
The water boarding we do is not pour into your lungs or sallowed.



According to a recently declassified investigation memo:

"Either in the normal application, or where countermeasures are used, we understand that water may enter and may accumulate in the detainee's mouth and nasal cavity, preventing him from breathing. In addition, you have indicated that the detainee as a countermeasure may swallow water, possibly in significant quantities."

"...the detainee might aspirate some of the water, and the resulting water in the lungs might cause pneumonia."




This report came from the Bush appointed Principal Deputy Assistant Attorney General for OLC, who concluded:


"Our conclusion is straightforward with respect to all but two of the techniques described herein.  As discussed below, use of sleep deprivation as an enhanced technique and use of the waterboard involve more substantial questions, with the waterboard presenting the most substantial question....

...In sum, based on the information you have provided and the limitations, procedures, and safeguards that would be in place, we conclude that - although extended sleep deprivation and use of the waterboard present more substantial questions in certain respects under the statute and the use of the waterboard raises the most substantial issue - none of these specific techniques, considered individually, would violate the prohibition in section 2340-2340A....

...We emphasize that these are issues about which reasonable persons may disagree."
 


What a glowing conclusion by Bush's own appointee.  Note that the conclusion was that the CIA's practices were lawful if applied in accordance with specified "limitations, procedures, and safeguards".  However, the report shows evidence that the waterboarding done on Al Qaeda wasn't done that way.  It'll be interesting to see what comes out of all this.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #10249902 - 04/28/09 02:49 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

deadmeat986 said:
The water boarding we do is not pour into your lungs or sallowed.



According to a recently declassified investigation memo:

"Either in the normal application, or where countermeasures are used, we understand that water may enter and may accumulate in the detainee's mouth and nasal cavity, preventing him from breathing. In addition, you have indicated that the detainee as a countermeasure may swallow water, possibly in significant quantities."

"...the detainee might aspirate some of the water, and the resulting water in the lungs might cause pneumonia."







Which is why the documents require that a physician and a psychologist be present.  Also it said this in the very next sentence:

"To mitigate this risk, a potable saline solution is used in the procedure."
It is on page 16 of the linked report.
Quote:



This report came from the Bush appointed Principal Deputy Assistant Attorney General for OLC, who concluded:


"Our conclusion is straightforward with respect to all but two of the techniques described herein.  As discussed below, use of sleep deprivation as an enhanced technique and use of the waterboard involve more substantial questions, with the waterboard presenting the most substantial question....

...In sum, based on the information you have provided and the limitations, procedures, and safeguards that would be in place, we conclude that - although extended sleep deprivation and use of the waterboard present more substantial questions in certain respects under the statute and the use of the waterboard raises the most substantial issue - none of these specific techniques, considered individually, would violate the prohibition in section 2340-2340A....

...We emphasize that these are issues about which reasonable persons may disagree."
 


What a glowing conclusion by Bush's own appointee.  Note that the conclusion was that the CIA's practices were lawful if applied in accordance with specified "limitations, procedures, and safeguards".  However, the report shows evidence that the waterboarding done on Al Qaeda wasn't done that way.  It'll be interesting to see what comes out of all this.




It does?  Where, pray tell does it say that?  For some reason you find it remarkable that a tough legal question might engender different opinions.  Why you think that is strange is unclear.


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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10249972 - 04/28/09 03:03 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

newsflash: the upper GI tract and nasal cavities are far from sterile.  I doubt using sterile isotonic water is going to do much good, slightly better than nothing I'd imagine..


Do you dispute that these procedures you speak of weren't followed?


I don't understand exactly what falcon is claiming wasn't followed, he should be more clear.



It would be interesting if it would be known that the proffered conditions in which the treatment was determined presumptivly legal were absent.  falcon, waht are you saying?

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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: johnm214]
    #10250726 - 04/28/09 04:54 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

> falcon, waht are you saying?

"Torture is bad, m'kay?  Bush is bad, m'kay?"

... or something pretty close to that.


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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Seuss]
    #10250829 - 04/28/09 05:11 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
Front teeth work much better than molars; each breath taken disturbs the exposed nerve endings resulting in nearly unbearable pain.  However, I see no reason to torture, even in the example you provide above, when non-torture interrogation techniques, such as waterboarding, are both safe and effective.





I'm here to inform you that conventional torture techniques are
also safe and effective, in fact far more effective than waterboarding

Questioning = what the police do when they want answers
Interrogation = What the army does to get answers, mostly harmless, may sting a little
Torture = You're only limited by your imagination

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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Phred]
    #10250869 - 04/28/09 05:17 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Quote:

However, I see no reason to torture, even in the example you provide above, when non-torture interrogation techniques, such as waterboarding, are both safe and effective.




We're not talking of efficacy here, but of morality.






Phred






How are the two sepperate?

I think the majority of people's reasoned opinions would hold that torture is not inherently immoral and so it would depend on the application.

If torture is being done in furtherance of a defense of someone's rights and has a reasonable chance of doing so where less sever means are not available, then it may be moral to do so if the rights seeking to be defended are proportional to the severity of the acts commited.


If, on the other hand, torture is being done as punishment and does not reasonably serve to defend someone's rights then I think it would be immoral.




Regardless, I don't see how we are talking about morality per se.  We're talking about whether we want certain techniques used or whether the american people do.

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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10252052 - 04/28/09 08:27 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Which is why the documents require that a physician and a psychologist be present.  Also it said this in the very next sentence:

"To mitigate this risk, a potable saline solution is used in the procedure."
It is on page 16 of the linked report.



No argument here.  I was just responding to deadmeat's claim that people didn't injest water, which is why I quoted him in my response.  Strange that neither you, johnm, nor suess caught this.

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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #10252078 - 04/28/09 08:29 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
when non-torture interrogation techniques, such as waterboarding, are both safe and effective.




Waterboarding is torture, no matter how often you deny it.


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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: deadmeat986]
    #10252084 - 04/28/09 08:30 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

deadmeat986 said:

So you would let any number of people die, just so you have a clear conscious?




Just so I didn't live in a nation of barbarian scum.


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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: deadmeat986]
    #10252100 - 04/28/09 08:32 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

deadmeat986 said:
You even know the officers name? Yukio Asano 15 year hard labor. The water boarding we do is not pour into your lungs or sallowed. we do not beat you when water boarding so ether happen.


58The charge and specifications against Asano were:

Charge: That between 1 April, 1943 and 31 August, 1944, , at Fukoka Prisoner of War Branch Camp Number 3, Kyushu, Japan, the accused Yukio Asana, then a civilian serving as an interpreter with the Armed Forces of Japan, a nation then at war with the United States of America and its Allies, did violate the Laws and Customs of War.

Specification 1: That in or about July or August, 1943, the accused Yukio Asano, did willfully and unlawfully, brutally mistreat and torture Morris O. Killough, an American Prisoner of War, by beating and kicking him; by fastening him on a stretcher and pouring water up his nostrils.

Specification 2: That on or about 15 May, 1944, at Fukoka Prisoner of War Branch Camp
Number 3, Kyushu, Japan, the accused Yukio Asano, did, willfully and unlawfully, brutally mistreat and torture Thomas B. Armitage, William O Cash and Munroe Dave Woodall, American Prisoners of War by beating and kicking them, by forcing water into their mouths and noses; and by pressing lighted cigarettes against their bodies.

Specification 5. That between 1 April, 1943 and 31 December, 1943, the accused Yukio Asano, did, willfully and unlawfully, brutally mistreat and torture John Henry Burton, an American Prisoner of War, by beating him; and by fastening him head downward on a stretcher and forcing water into his nose...

... [We] were strapped to stretchers and warm water poured down our nostrils until we were about ready to pass out65

[They] strapped him to a stretcher and elevated his feet and then poured on his face so that it was almost impossible for him to get his breath.66

[The victim] was then taken into the corridor, strapped to a stretcher, which was tilted so that his head was toward the floor and feet resting on a nearby sink. Water was then poured down his nose and mouth for about twenty minutes...67


...None of the specifications were on water torture per se, but specifications 2 and 9 refer to forcing prisoners into a tank of water, 2 is 5 unknown pows, 9 is throwing American POW James E Martin into a tank of water. The testimony discussed infra ties those specifications into water torture...

...After taking me down into the hallway, they laid me out on a stretcher and strapped me on. The stretcher was then stood on end with my head almost touching the floor and my feet in the air. By this time, practically the entire Japanese personnel of the camp were present. I saw the Japanese Major who was the Commanding Officer and also the 1st Lt. Who was his assistant. This 1st Lt. Told me while I was strapped to the stretcher that he didn�t think I did it, but it was his duty to punish me anyway.

They then began pouring water over my face and at times it was almost impossible for me to breath without sucking in water. This torture continued for what must have been a half hour or an hour. Finally I was placed in a horizontal position and unstrapped. It was imopossible for me to arise so one of the prisoners...helped me.

Affidavit of John Henry Burton, Los Angeles, CA, 26 April, 1946, (civilian captured on Wake Island).




Why do you keep avoiding the Neilsen case?


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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #10252208 - 04/28/09 08:46 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Which is why the documents require that a physician and a psychologist be present.  Also it said this in the very next sentence:

"To mitigate this risk, a potable saline solution is used in the procedure."
It is on page 16 of the linked report.



No argument here.  I was just responding to deadmeat's claim that people didn't injest water, which is why I quoted him in my response.  Strange that neither you, johnm, nor suess caught this.






He said the japs were pouring water into the lungs/stomach or whatever and that we don't do that.  I figured he was referring to intent to do such rather than consequental happenings. 


Of course nobody seems to know if we do or don't do this so who knows.  All we know is what they tell us.  Not very reassuring.  Seems to me that they should record all these and archive them for review.


Personally its hard for me to see how these would need to be classified anyways, but they can do such to the extent reasonable.

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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10252639 - 04/28/09 09:48 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Note that the conclusion was that the CIA's practices were lawful if applied in accordance with specified "limitations, procedures, and safeguards".  However, the report shows evidence that the waterboarding done on Al Qaeda wasn't done that way.



It does?  Where, pray tell does it say that?



It's kind of hidden in footnote 51 on page 43:

51. The IG Report noted that in some cases the waterboard was used with far greater frequency than initially indicated, see IG Report at 5, 44, 45,103, 104 and also that it was used in a different manner. See id. at 37 (”The waterboard technique was different from the technique described in the DOJ opinion and used in the SERE training. The difference was in the manner in which the detainee’s breathing was obstructed. At the SERE school and in the DoJ opinion, the subject’s airflow is disrupted by by the firm application of a damp cloth over the air passages; the Interrogator applies a small amount of water to the cloth in a controlled manner. By contrast, the Agency interrogator… applies large volumes of water to a cloth that covered the detainee’s mouth and nose. One of the psychologists/interrogators acknowledged that the Agency’s use of the technique is different than that used by in SERE training because it is ‘for real’ and is ‘more poignant and convincing’.”) The Inspector General further reported that "OMS contends that the expertise of the SERE psychologist/interrogators on the waterboard was probably misrepresented at the time, as the SERE waterboard experience is so so different from the subsequent Agency usage as to make it almost irrelevant. [c]onsequently, according to OMS, there was no a priori reason to believe that applying the waterboard with the frequency and intensity with which it was used by the psychologist/interrogators was either efficacious or medically safe.” Id. at 21 n.26.


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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: TGRR]
    #10254130 - 04/29/09 04:34 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

TGRR said:
Quote:

Seuss said:
when non-torture interrogation techniques, such as waterboarding, are both safe and effective.




Waterboarding is torture, no matter how often you deny it.




Obviously it isn't, the way that I define it.  Nice try though.  I would think you, of all people, would appreciate that there is no black and white line between what is and is not torture.  Something like waterboarding falls into a large gray area and may or may not be torture depending upon the circumstances, how it is used, etc.

I won't argue that the US, and other countries, should avoid the gray area.  I won't argue that the US was wrong trying to draw a line through the gray area to trying to create an impossible definition of what is and what is not torture.  I will argue against anybody that tries to define something in that gray area as an absolute.


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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: TGRR]
    #10254448 - 04/29/09 07:30 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Waterboarding is torture, no matter how often you deny it.




Actually, no, it isn't torture. See the discussion at http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/8008357



Phred


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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: TGRR]
    #10254641 - 04/29/09 09:02 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

TGRR said:
Quote:

Seuss said:
when non-torture interrogation techniques, such as waterboarding, are both safe and effective.




Waterboarding is torture, no matter how often you deny it.



Well then we have heard from the legal authority on all things and he has decreed thusly and foresooth.  And YEA verily, it was so.  No need to discuss, peons.



Spare me your pontifications.


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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10254703 - 04/29/09 09:29 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Note that the conclusion was that the CIA's practices were lawful if applied in accordance with specified "limitations, procedures, and safeguards".  However, the report shows evidence that the waterboarding done on Al Qaeda wasn't done that way.



It does?  Where, pray tell does it say that?



It's kind of hidden in footnote 51 on page 43:

51. The IG Report noted that in some cases the waterboard was used with far greater frequency than initially indicated, see IG Report at 5, 44, 45,103, 104 and also that it was used in a different manner. See id. at 37 (%uFFFDThe waterboard technique was different from the technique described in the DOJ opinion and used in the SERE training. The difference was in the manner in which the detainee%uFFFDs breathing was obstructed. At the SERE school and in the DoJ opinion, the subject%uFFFDs airflow is disrupted by by the firm application of a damp cloth over the air passages; the Interrogator applies a small amount of water to the cloth in a controlled manner. By contrast, the Agency interrogator%uFFFD applies large volumes of water to a cloth that covered the detainee%uFFFDs mouth and nose. One of the psychologists/interrogators acknowledged that the Agency%uFFFDs use of the technique is different than that used by in SERE training because it is %uFFFDfor real%uFFFD and is %uFFFDmore poignant and convincing%uFFFD.%uFFFD) The Inspector General further reported that "OMS contends that the expertise of the SERE psychologist/interrogators on the waterboard was probably misrepresented at the time, as the SERE waterboard experience is so so different from the subsequent Agency usage as to make it almost irrelevant. [c]onsequently, according to OMS, there was no a priori reason to believe that applying the waterboard with the frequency and intensity with which it was used by the psychologist/interrogators was either efficacious or medically safe.%uFFFD Id. at 21 n.26.





Thank you.  What it actually says is that in some cases  it was done slightly differently than as used in the SERE training.  Next sentence:

"We have carefully considered the IG report and discussed it with OMS personnel.  As noted, OMS input has resulted in a number of changes in the application of the waterboard, including limits on the frequency and cumulative use of the technique.  Moreover, OMS personnel are carefully instructed....Blah blah blah."

  For some reason I can't C&P PDFs.  At any rate it is more accurate to say that the footnote states that some al Q may have been treated slightly differently than in the SERE training, which is not necessarily unlawful.  The SERE training procedures are not the only lawful ones.  The description above still fails to rise to the level of unlawful.  Also, see Phred's expose on the 183 times myth in the other thread.


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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: TGRR]
    #10254796 - 04/29/09 09:59 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Yukio Asano, was not convected on the clams from Neilsen. Neilsen testafied what happend to him but Yukio Asano was never convected of crimes aginst Neilsen for (just waterboarding). And what you sited does not say Neilsen testafied or mention of Yukio case and if he was convected of crimes aginst Neilsen.

I list the charges he was convected on. All he got was 15 year hard labor. There is a diffrence between charged and conveted.

<<Charge: That between 1 April, 1943 and 31 August, 1944, at Fukoka Prisoner of War Branch Camp Number 3, Kyushu, Japan, the accused Yukio Asana, then a civilian serving as an interpreter with the Armed Forces of Japan, a nation then at war with the United States of America and its Allies, did violate the Laws and Customs of War.
Specification 1: That in or about July or August, 1943, the accused Yukio Asano, did willfully and unlawfully, brutally mistreat and torture Morris O. Killough, an American Prisoner of War, by beating and kicking him; by fastening him on a stretcher and pouring water up his nostrils.
Specification 2: That on or about 15 May, 1944, at Fukoka Prisoner of War Branch Camp Number 3, Kyushu, Japan, the accused Yukio Asano, did, willfully and unlawfully, brutally mistreat and torture Thomas B. Armitage, William O Cash and Munroe Dave Woodall, American Prisoners of War by beating and kicking them, by forcing water into their mouths and noses; and by pressing lighted cigarettes against their bodies.
Specification 5. That between 1 April, 1943 and 31 December, 1943, the accused Yukio Asano, did, willfully and unlawfully, brutally mistreat and torture John Henry Burton, an American Prisoner of War, by beating him; and by fastening him head downward on a stretcher and forcing water into his nose.>>


--------------------

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Edited by deadmeat986 (04/29/09 10:15 AM)

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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: TGRR]
    #10254845 - 04/29/09 10:12 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

TGRR said:
Quote:

deadmeat986 said:

So you would let any number of people die, just so you have a clear conscious?




Just so I didn't live in a nation of barbarian scum.




Well as long as you can have clear conscious, i guess blood on your hands means nothing?


--------------------

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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: deadmeat986]
    #10255245 - 04/29/09 11:20 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

>  i guess blood on your hands means nothing?

Nothing?  It means your soap isn't working very well.


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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: deadmeat986]
    #10255298 - 04/29/09 11:29 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

deadmeat986 said:
Quote:

TGRR said:
Just so I didn't live in a nation of barbarian scum.




Well as long as you can have clear conscious, i guess blood on your hands means nothing?



That's what the Vietnamese, North Koreans, etc. argued when they tortured Americans.  Scum.


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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #10255392 - 04/29/09 11:47 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I don't recall them making any arguments.


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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10257390 - 04/29/09 05:54 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Come to think of it, I don't recall them torturing US soldiers either; it was all enhanced interrogation based on our new rules.


--------------------
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: deadmeat986]
    #10258357 - 04/29/09 08:21 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

deadmeat986 said:
Quote:

TGRR said:
Quote:

deadmeat986 said:

So you would let any number of people die, just so you have a clear conscious?




Just so I didn't live in a nation of barbarian scum.




Well as long as you can have clear conscious, i guess blood on your hands means nothing?




What blood on my hands?  I haven't beaten anyone to death (not for lack of motivation sometimes, but who hasn't been there?), nor have I supported such behavior.


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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: deadmeat986]
    #10258369 - 04/29/09 08:22 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

deadmeat986 said:
Yukio Asano, was not convected on the clams from Neilsen.




Claims?  Are you implying that Neilsen lied?


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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Phred]
    #10271604 - 05/02/09 01:15 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Quote:

Waterboarding is torture, no matter how often you deny it.




Actually, no, it isn't torture. See the discussion at http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/8008357




so your argument is that denying that waterboarding is torture makes it not be torture because you have been denying it for such a long time?

I'm well aware of the issues here and I don't see how you couldn't define some of these acts as outrages against human dignity. The fact that it has to be debated on a medical level is case and point for it's status as such.

Would you be in favor of them using it on innocent people?


--------------------
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: ScavengerType]
    #10271642 - 05/02/09 01:30 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

ScavengerType said:
so your argument is that denying that waterboarding is torture makes it not be torture because you have been denying it for such a long time?






I love this decade.


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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: ScavengerType]
    #10272029 - 05/02/09 06:10 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

No, I (and others) point out that it isn't torture because it doesn't fit the definition of torture. Waterboarding isn't painful or anguishing, it is unpleasant, uncomfortable, and - to the uninitiated - frightening.

People don't want it to stop because it is agonizing, they want it to stop because the sensation mimics so closely the sensation(s) of drowning, and the body's inbuilt reflexes to the situation are so thoroughly hardwired that they override the intellect. Even people who know for an absolute fact that they are in no danger whatsoever of really drowning (i.e. volunteers such as US military and the dozen or so journalists who've tried it) cannot help but call "Uncle" in a very short period of time - almost always less than thirty seconds.





Phred


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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Phred]
    #10272133 - 05/02/09 07:05 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Waterboarding is not anguishing, huh? Are you that poorly aware of the definition of "anguish"?

Also, I've seen you say that waterboarding stopped the attack on the Library Towers. Do you have any proof of this?

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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Redstorm]
    #10272182 - 05/02/09 07:34 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Yes, I am aware of the definition of anguish. And being temporarily in the grip of a bodily reflex doesn't fit the bill, nor does being frightened.

The thing about waterboarding is that the people upon whom it is being practiced know going into it they are not going to die, nor are they even going to suffer pain. Someone who has got a hunk of meat caught in his throat and is really facing death through choking (absent the presence of someone who can bung that bolus outta there with a properly-applied Heimlich maneuver) is in worse shape.

Is waterboarding extremely unpleasant? Of course it is! I have never claimed otherwise. But not everything that is extremely unpleasant meets the definition of "torture".

As for the "Second Wave" operation, which included the plan to fly a hijacked airliner into the Library Tower, have you discovered why it was never carried out? I take it your position is that by the time KSM was interrogated, the "Second Wave" attacks had been either

a) voluntarily discarded by the Jihadis, or

b) thwarted by US actions.

Which was it? 





Phred


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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Phred]
    #10272215 - 05/02/09 07:46 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

excruciating or acute distress, suffering, or pain: the anguish of grief.




Both acute distress and suffering fit the bill.

Also, by statements made by US officials, I am under the impression that b.) is true.  See my thread on the LA attacks for details.

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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Phred]
    #10272267 - 05/02/09 08:11 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
People don't want it to stop because it is agonizing, they want it to stop because the sensation mimics so closely the sensation(s) of drowning, and the body's inbuilt reflexes to the situation are so thoroughly hardwired that they override the intellect.




Who do you think you are kidding? This is the worst justification for waterboarding I've ever heard, not even bush admin people trying to justify torture would be so stupid as to actually say something like this and expect the public to swallow it.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Phred]
    #10272889 - 05/02/09 11:22 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
People don't want it to stop because it is agonizing, they want it to stop because the sensation mimics so closely the sensation(s) of drowning, and the body's inbuilt reflexes to the situation are so thoroughly hardwired that they override the intellect.




AMAZING!  :lol:


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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: ScavengerType]
    #10274465 - 05/02/09 05:51 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Not every experience you find unpleasant and wish would stop is painful or anguishing. Is waterboarding unpleasant? Damn straight! Is it scary? You betcha! Is it torture? Nope.



Phred


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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Redstorm]
    #10274474 - 05/02/09 05:52 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Also, by statements made by US officials, I am under the impression that b.) is true.




Okay, let's run with that. From whom did the US got the information necessary to thwart the attacks?





Phred


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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Redstorm]
    #10274977 - 05/02/09 07:44 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
Waterboarding is not anguishing, huh? Are you that poorly aware of the definition of "anguish"?

Also, I've seen you say that waterboarding stopped the attack on the Library Towers. Do you have any proof of this?




this nonsense about a planned attack on library tower.. and how our heroic torturers stopped it w/ their magic waterboards.. has already been roundly debunked ..



--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

Edited by Annapurna1 (05/02/09 08:29 PM)

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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Phred]
    #10275017 - 05/02/09 07:52 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Not every experience you find unpleasant and wish would stop is painful or anguishing. Is waterboarding unpleasant? Damn straight! Is it scary? You betcha! Is it torture? Nope.




I doubt everyone is as sadomasochistic as you, perhaps you like to call up your dominatrix and have a go at the waterboarding but I'm going to guess that this fetish is only something that belongs to a slim segment of the population.

Frankly reading you say this makes me worry that you have any real material authority outside of this board, because anyone who could have such a warped view of something so totally plane and seemingly self-explanatory sure could abuse power in the blink of an eye.

It is a good thing because I expect dictators and other similar power abusers have similar views and it is good that we have the Geneva Conventions to lay it out so that it's clear that torture is the forcing of anguish, pain or suffering (3 words that are synonyms, share a common material reality and mean the same thing) on to a person for un-due reasons and that these protections extend to anyone captive in the hands of their enemies if said enemies are a Geneva Convention signatory.

However just for shits and giggles lets say someone in your family was mistaken for a terrorist and waterboarded then returned after years to the outside world when it was found out to be a mistaken arrest. Would you say: "oh mom grab a pair that wasn't torture you were experiencing that was just enhanced interrogation techniques!"


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
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Edited by ScavengerType (05/02/09 07:57 PM)

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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: ScavengerType]
    #10276587 - 05/03/09 02:33 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

I doubt everyone is as sadomasochistic as you...




Sadomasochistic?

You really have no ammunition at all, do you? I have never said waterboarding is pleasant or that I would rush to have it done to myself. All I have done is pointed out correctly that it isn't torture.

Quote:

It is a good thing because I expect dictators and other similar power abusers have similar views and it is good that we have the Geneva Conventions to lay it out so that it's clear that torture is the forcing of anguish, pain or suffering...




Exactly. And waterboarding is none of those things. This is why it was chosen by the US government over other methods.





Phred


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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Phred]
    #10276890 - 05/03/09 05:42 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

How would you define waterboarding, then, since you don't consider it torture?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Poid]
    #10277185 - 05/03/09 08:09 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
How would you define waterboarding, then, since you don't consider it torture?



A fraternity initiation rite.


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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10277193 - 05/03/09 08:13 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

They might as well force them to play jizz cookie, then!  :blowjob:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10277350 - 05/03/09 09:16 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Poid said:
How would you define waterboarding, then, since you don't consider it torture?



A fraternity initiation rite.




We should allow fraternities to strappado pledges as well, then.


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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: TGRR]
    #10277468 - 05/03/09 09:58 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I would rather be tortured then have to go through some of the worst fraternity initiation rites...:bondage:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Poid]
    #10277556 - 05/03/09 10:17 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
I would rather be tortured then have to go through some of the worst fraternity initiation rites...:bondage:




Hey...without fraternity rites, how would we maintain our current level of perverts?


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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: TGRR]
    #10277659 - 05/03/09 10:42 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I think the internet is doing a fine job in maintaining our current level of perverts. :shrug:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Phred]
    #10280137 - 05/03/09 07:41 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

What can I say phred you made it sound like you were.

Nice dodge on the rest of my post and jump to the subsequent denial of the reality that waterboarding is torture.

Out of curiosity since you are so sure there is a legal precedence to define the line between waterboarding and electrocuting someone's testicles, presumably in the Geneva Convention, quote it. Because it appears to me that you are pulling this deffinition out of your ass. The Geneva Convention seems as far as I read to have vague enough language to prevent any type of torture, be it perminant damage or temporary pain, imminent death or percieved imminent death. If someone is purposely simulating the experiance of drowning to death and then removing you from that state just before you are near blacking out. That's torture. If a cop did this to a citizen, they would be tried for torturing them, in fact I think that happened somewhere in the US. Why is the definition somehow different if it's the CIA?


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: ScavengerType]
    #10281152 - 05/03/09 10:41 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Who cares if water boarding is torture? To me they didn't go far enough, not even close.  As far as I am concerned they shouldve extended excruciating pain for as long as possible. Make it so these fucks would be begging us to kill them or let them die. And then tortured them some more, Native American style.  Vin Rhames in pulp fiction said something like I'm gonna give this guy to some niggers that know how to use pliers and blowtorches. Hell yeah.

As for any civilization that condones torture not worth saving, then what the hell are we doing in the middle east? Every country there adheres to what we would consider torture. Should we have killed them all, or would that be torture. 

Who says torture is only necessary when we are attempting to extract information?  Why not do it out of spite or for retribution?  OK then lets go quid pro quo on their asses, I would be the first one to lock them in a room 90 stories up, throw in a couple dozen gallons of jet fuel, set it ablaze, and see what happens. Don't worry I'd tell them freedom and 40 virgins lie outside the window.

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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Therian]
    #10281916 - 05/04/09 01:56 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Who cares if water boarding is torture? To me they didn't go far enough, not even close.  As far as I am concerned they shouldve extended excruciating pain for as long as possible. Make it so these fucks would be begging us to kill them or let them die. And then tortured them some more, Native American style.  Vin Rhames in pulp fiction said something like I'm gonna give this guy to some niggers that know how to use pliers and blowtorches. Hell yeah.





Lovely.  Just a naked preference devoid of reason nor meaning.  Who are "those fucks"?  Everyone the government wants?



I take it your not much for "following the law" and "respecting treaties" and " an executive bound by the law".

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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Therian]
    #10282350 - 05/04/09 06:05 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Therian said:
Who cares if water boarding is torture? To me they didn't go far enough, not even close.  As far as I am concerned they shouldve extended excruciating pain for as long as possible. Make it so these fucks would be begging us to kill them or let them die. And then tortured them some more, Native American style.  Vin Rhames in pulp fiction said something like I'm gonna give this guy to some niggers that know how to use pliers and blowtorches. Hell yeah.

As for any civilization that condones torture not worth saving, then what the hell are we doing in the middle east? Every country there adheres to what we would consider torture. Should we have killed them all, or would that be torture. 

Who says torture is only necessary when we are attempting to extract information?  Why not do it out of spite or for retribution?  OK then lets go quid pro quo on their asses, I would be the first one to lock them in a room 90 stories up, throw in a couple dozen gallons of jet fuel, set it ablaze, and see what happens. Don't worry I'd tell them freedom and 40 virgins lie outside the window.




:shake:

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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: ScavengerType]
    #10283871 - 05/04/09 01:49 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Nice dodge on the rest of my post...




What "rest of my post" are you talking about. There was almost no substance to your post, just attacks on me.

Quote:

Out of curiosity since you are so sure there is a legal precedence to define the line between waterboarding and electrocuting someone's testicles, presumably in the Geneva Convention, quote it.




The word "torture" existed long before there was such a thing as the Geneva Convention. I am personally quite content to go with the definition you provided earlier - actions designed to deliberately cause extreme pain and/or anguish. The thing is, waterboarding is painless and causes no anguish.

Your insistence on inflating every unpleasant experience to the level of "torture" is absurd, but it's the standard technique of Lefties and has been forever:

Harsh interrogation is torture.
The Bush regime were Nazis.
The Israelis are committing genocide.

Words have meaning. That's why there are so many of them. There's no point in my engaging further someone who refuses to differentiate between words. The bottom line here is that you insist on believing waterboarding rises to the level of torture. I can't help what you believe. You believe a lot of other weird things, too. There's no point us continuing to persuade each other, as you will continue to believe what you believe no matter what I write.



Phred


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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Phred]
    #10284476 - 05/04/09 03:38 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Again, I will refer you to the definition of anguish. To argue that waterboarding does not lead to distress or anxiety is absurd.

I suggest you choose a new approach.

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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Phred]
    #10284582 - 05/04/09 03:54 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
The thing is, waterboarding is painless and causes no anguish.



So then what is the point?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Redstorm]
    #10284855 - 05/04/09 04:34 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Again, I will refer you to the definition of anguish. To argue that waterboarding does not lead to distress or anxiety is absurd.




Some distress, sure. Some anxiety, sure. But the definition of "anguish" is "severe mental pain or suffering". Note the essential qualifier here - severe.

Here again we see the casual inflation by those with an agenda of the meaning of commonly understood words to cover something they were never meant to represent. That's exactly why there are different words for the three different mental states "anguish" and "distress" and "anxiety". If I miss an appointment with my dentist and have to reschedule, I'm distressed. I sure as hell am not suffering anguish, though. When I've just bet my stack all-in on a dubious hand in Texas Hold 'em, I'm for sure undergoing anxiety while I'm waiting for the turn card and the river card, but I am certainly not "anguished".

The fact of the matter is that those being waterboarded know they are in no danger of dying. So what is there to feel "anguished" about?

Quote:

I suggest you choose a new approach.




I suggest you be intellectually honest.




Phred


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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Poid]
    #10284869 - 05/04/09 04:36 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

So then what is the point?




The point is that the sensation is unpleasant enough that the person undergoing it wants it to stop. As you are well aware, there are many experiences which are unpleasant without being painful.




Phred


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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Phred]
    #10284899 - 05/04/09 04:41 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Not all torture is physically painful.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Phred]
    #10285074 - 05/04/09 05:08 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Intellectually dishonest? Stop being a prick for about all of two seconds, ok? I pulled that definition directly from a dictionary source.

"extreme pain, distress, or anxiety"

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anguish
-Merriam Webster: an expert on definitions the last time I checked.

Also, did you really just compare missing a Dr's appt, losing a hand of poker, and getting waterboarded?

I think you need to get a fucking grip on reality, because you are apparently hanging by a thin thread.

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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Redstorm]
    #10285085 - 05/04/09 05:09 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

That's exactly why there are different words for the three different mental states "anguish" and "distress" and "anxiety".


'

You may have also missed this memo, but usually words are defined by using other words. Strange, huh?

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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Redstorm]
    #10285086 - 05/04/09 05:09 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
did you really just compare missing a Dr's appt, losing a hand of poker, and getting waterboarded?

I think you need to get a fucking grip on reality, because you are apparently hanging by a thin thread.



:thumbup:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #10285545 - 05/04/09 06:32 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I am continually amazed at how people try to define something fuzzy as concrete.  Waterboarding falls into a gray area.  It may or may not be torture.  To argue that it is torture is absurd.  To argue that it is not torture is absurd.  Because of this gray area, it will be impossible to convict anybody in the Bush administration that used/approved waterboarding of torture... we can't even decide among ourselves if what was done was torture.  Again, it is silly to debate something that cannot be cleanly defined.

The real question- was the Bush administration justified lowering America's image/values by venturing into the controversial gray area of waterboarding?  For me, this is a hard question to answer.  On one side, if lives were saved, then yes.  On the other side, if it means lives are lost in the future, as others use America as an example to justify real torture, then perhaps not.


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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Seuss]
    #10285600 - 05/04/09 06:42 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

To me it seems like waterboarding is just a form of bullying. :shrug:


--------------------
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Poid]
    #10286213 - 05/04/09 08:06 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

> To me it seems like waterboarding is just a form of bullying. :shrug:

If it were being used just for punishment, then I would probably side on calling it torture.  However, besides a form of punishment, it is very effective at getting somebody to talk (without thinking about what they are saying; thus what they say is unlikely to be misleading).  As an interrogation tool, when compared to drilling holes in kneecaps, calling it torture is very debatable (hence the problems we are having trying to debate the subject).  Regardless, it doesn't really matter what either one of us think, at least from a legal standpoint.  From a public relations standpoint, our views are a bit more important... see the last paragraph of my previous post for my reasoning.


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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Seuss]
    #10286232 - 05/04/09 08:08 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Yeah, from a legal standpoint, our opinions mean shit.


Waterboarding seems kind of degrading, though, don't you think? :shrug:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Seuss]
    #10287120 - 05/04/09 09:53 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> To me it seems like waterboarding is just a form of bullying. :shrug:

If it were being used just for punishment, then I would probably side on calling it torture.  However, besides a form of punishment, it is very effective at getting somebody to talk (without thinking about what they are saying; thus what they say is unlikely to be misleading).  As an interrogation tool, when compared to drilling holes in kneecaps, calling it torture is very debatable (hence the problems we are having trying to debate the subject).  Regardless, it doesn't really matter what either one of us think, at least from a legal standpoint.  From a public relations standpoint, our views are a bit more important... see the last paragraph of my previous post for my reasoning.




Interrogating for what?  Most of these people have been detained for years.

What kind of information could they possibly have that would still be of any use?

No, this is nothing more than sadism.


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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Phred]
    #10287637 - 05/04/09 11:26 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
The word "torture" existed long before there was such a thing as the Geneva Convention. I am personally quite content to go with the definition you provided earlier - actions designed to deliberately cause extreme pain and/or anguish. The thing is, waterboarding is painless and causes no anguish.
...
The fact of the matter is that those being waterboarded know they are in no danger of dying. So what is there to feel "anguished" about?





So you pulled the definition of "torture" out of your ass and wrote your own definition of "Anguish" to suit your argument. For your information, according to dictionary.com, anguish means:
Quote:

–noun
1. excruciating or acute distress, suffering, or pain: the anguish of grief.
–verb (used with object)
2. to inflict with distress, suffering, or pain.
–verb (used without object)
3. to suffer, feel, or exhibit anguish: to anguish over the loss of a loved one.




Now obviously as intended in the Geneva Conventions it does actually mean serious anguish, not mild anguish. I am not denying that, because waterboarding is obviously serious anguish. Here's something for you to think about. I read in the "about me and you" post that you had cluster headaches. You knew your headaches would end and that they wouldn't be fatal (at least as much as a waterboarding subject) however I doubt you would not admit that that was severe anguish correct? So what does it mater that it is non-fatal?

I'm glad that most of the world is more sane than the people here advocating a descent into fascism and barbarism.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: TGRR]
    #10288629 - 05/05/09 05:07 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

> Interrogating for what?  Most of these people have been detained for years.  What kind of information could they possibly have that would still be of any use?

None.  I assumed that waterboarding was done towards the start of their detainment and ceased after any relevant information was extracted.  A few weeks to a few months at most.  Is my assumption incorrect?  Were they continually waterboarded for years and years?  If so, my opinion on the mater may change somewhat.


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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Redstorm]
    #10288882 - 05/05/09 07:42 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

I pulled that definition directly from a dictionary source.

"extreme pain, distress, or anxiety"




Perhaps you thought you were pulling that definition from a dictionary, but you didn't use that definition in your post. And I said I agreed with the dictionary definition. But I also pointed out the essential qualifier in the definition - extreme. Your "argument" in post #10285074 ignored that essential qualifier. Here is your statement, to save you the effort of scrolling back to review it -

Quote:

To argue that waterboarding does not lead to distress or anxiety is absurd.




You cannot properly say that everyone suffering anxiety or distress is experiencing anguish - only someone who is undergoing extreme anxiety or extreme distress. Hence my remark about intellectual honesty. Trivializing the word "anguish" by reducing it to mere anxiety or mere distress is as bad as trivializing the word "torture" by applying it to everything someone finds unpleasant.





Phred


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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: ScavengerType]
    #10288921 - 05/05/09 07:53 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

You knew your headaches would end and that they wouldn't be fatal (at least as much as a waterboarding subject) however I doubt you would not admit that that was severe anguish correct?




There is so much wrong with your assumptions that it's hard to address them all, but let me address at least a few -

- Who says the Geneva Accords are the last word on torture? People knew for millennia before there ever was such a thing as the Geneva Accords what constituted torture and what didn't. It's not as if the word "torture" was undefined until the Geneva Accords were written.

- when I suffer a cluster headache, I am not mentally anguished. The agony is physical agony, not mental agony.

The whole point of inserting "mental anguish" into the Accords was to prohibit mock executions. If you are going to trivialize the concept of torture to everything which scares someone and everything that makes someone uncomfortable, then there is quite literally nowhere to stop. For example, I suffer considerably more mental "anguish" when forced to listen to crappy music than I do when in the grip of a cluster headache. Does that mean I'm being "tortured" when some idiot parks his car on the street outside my window and cranks his Reggaeton up to eleven?

Quote:

I'm glad that most of the world is more sane than the people here advocating a descent into fascism and barbarism.




Waterboarding those three quite obviously guilty high-value targets caused them no pain, no long-lasting distress or anxiety, and provided information essential to preventing other barbaric attacks on civilians.




Phred


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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Phred]
    #10288938 - 05/05/09 08:00 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

If you don't think that being repeatedly exposed to simulated drowning and having water being forced down your throat while be restrained would not lead to EXTREME anxiety or distress, I can't really say that this discussion can even continue. We're apparently on different worlds here.

If it is on the same level as missing a dr's appt or losing a hand of poker, why do we use it? You would think it wouldn't be effective if it was.

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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Redstorm]
    #10288961 - 05/05/09 08:06 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

> If you don't think that being repeatedly exposed to simulated drowning and having water being forced down your throat while be restrained

What does that have to do with waterboarding, as practiced by US interrogators?


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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Redstorm]
    #10289012 - 05/05/09 08:16 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

If you don't think that being repeatedly exposed to simulated drowning and having water being forced down your throat ...




You misrepresent what is happening. No water even enters the throat, much less is forced down the throat. You will remember that past discussions in this forum have included detailed descriptions of the process, and in some cases it isn't even a cloth that is wetted, but a piece of cellophane that water is poured over. Last time I checked, water doesn't penetrate cellophane.

Quote:

If it is on the same level as missing a dr's appt or losing a hand of poker, why do we use it?




You deliberately set up a straw man here. I never implied waterboarding was on the same level as those things, I merely pointed out that if you were going to define "anguish" as just distress or anxiety - omitting the essential qualifier "extreme" - then those things met the definition of "anguishing" occurrences.

Quote:

If it is on the same level as missing a dr's appt or losing a hand of poker, why do we use it?




The fact of the matter is that many things which don't meet the definition of torture are nonetheless unpleasant enough that people will cough up information to get you to stop doing those things. That's the whole argument of many opponents of waterboarding - that it is possible to get the same information with less harsh methods, such as playing loud music, the "attention grab", the belly slap, shouting, putting a caterpillar in the cell, etc.





Phred


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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Phred]
    #10289053 - 05/05/09 08:31 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

How is waterboarding not a mock execution? The detainee may know that it will not kill him but he also may not, and may go into it every time thinking this may be the last time.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: TGRR]
    #10289453 - 05/05/09 10:30 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

TGRR said:
Quote:

Seuss said:
> To me it seems like waterboarding is just a form of bullying. :shrug:

If it were being used just for punishment, then I would probably side on calling it torture.  However, besides a form of punishment, it is very effective at getting somebody to talk (without thinking about what they are saying; thus what they say is unlikely to be misleading).  As an interrogation tool, when compared to drilling holes in kneecaps, calling it torture is very debatable (hence the problems we are having trying to debate the subject).  Regardless, it doesn't really matter what either one of us think, at least from a legal standpoint.  From a public relations standpoint, our views are a bit more important... see the last paragraph of my previous post for my reasoning.




Interrogating for what?  Most of these people have been detained for years.

What kind of information could they possibly have that would still be of any use?

No, this is nothing more than sadism.



Please provide the name of someone who you believe was waterboarded after years of detention.  Thank you in advance.
I was horribly tortured by the anxiety of 22 credits in my last semester.  (Not really, but let's play along)  Who should I sue?


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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Phred]
    #10289463 - 05/05/09 10:32 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
You misrepresent what is happening. No water even enters the throat, much less is forced down the throat. You will remember that past discussions in this forum have included detailed descriptions of the process, and in some cases it isn't even a cloth that is wetted, but a piece of cellophane that water is poured over. Last time I checked, water doesn't penetrate cellophane.



Earlier in this thread, the waterboarding process was described in the declassified torture memos:

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/10246631#10246631

"Either in the normal application, or where countermeasures are used, we understand that water may enter and may accumulate in the detainee's mouth and nasal cavity, preventing him from breathing. In addition, you have indicated that the detainee as a countermeasure may swallow water, possibly in significant quantities."

"...the detainee might aspirate some of the water, and the resulting water in the lungs might cause pneumonia."


--------------------
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10289473 - 05/05/09 10:34 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I was horribly tortured by the anxiety of 22 credits in my last semester.  (Not really, but let's play along)  Who should I sue?



I'll play along.  Don't sign up for 22 credits if you can't handle it!  You have only yourself to sue.  :wink:


--------------------
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #10289603 - 05/05/09 10:56 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I needed them all to graduate.  The 128 credit requirement was TORTURE!!!!!!!!  Clearly, I must sue you.  You will be hearing from my attorney any day, you heartless thug.


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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #10290126 - 05/05/09 12:33 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I was horribly tortured by the anxiety of 22 credits in my last semester.  (Not really, but let's play along)  Who should I sue?



I'll play along.  Don't sign up for 22 credits if you can't handle it!  You have only yourself to sue.  :wink:




but if this shit society didn't demand so much from me inorder to own a boat and two houses, and have money left over to send my kids to college then i wouldn't have been so uncomfortable.

please for the love of god lets stop now, before the morons begin to think socialism is the key.

one of the best things about our society is that the intelligentsia will almost always be encouraged by proximity to marry into the intelligentsia.  that pleases me.


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Edited by Statisticons_win (05/05/09 12:34 PM)

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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10290153 - 05/05/09 12:38 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Since we'll never agree on torture, let's wait and see what the torture investigation decides.


--------------------
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #10290453 - 05/05/09 01:32 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Keep beating that meat.


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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10293441 - 05/05/09 09:04 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Keep beating that meat.





We don't have to.  Eric Holder is gonna do it for us.


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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: TGRR]
    #10294283 - 05/05/09 11:25 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

:toast:


--------------------
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: TGRR]
    #10295494 - 05/06/09 06:22 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

TGRR said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Keep beating that meat.





We don't have to.  Eric Holder is gonna do it for us.



No he isn't.


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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10295986 - 05/06/09 09:40 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

TGRR said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Keep beating that meat.





We don't have to.  Eric Holder is gonna do it for us.



No he isn't.



Eric Holder in 2002:

Quote:

Eric Holder (Barack Obama's choice for Attorney General), on the question of whether unlawful combatants captured in the war on terror are entitled to prisoner-of-war status under the Geneva Convention. From an interview on CNN, January 2002:

One of the things we clearly want to do with these prisoners is to have an ability to interrogate them and find out what their future plans might be, where other cells are located; under the Geneva Convention that you are really limited in the amount of information that you can elicit from people.

It seems to me that given the way in which they have conducted themselves, however, that they are not, in fact, people entitled to the protection of the Geneva Convention. They are not prisoners of war. If, for instance, Mohamed Atta had survived the attack on the World Trade Center, would we now be calling him a prisoner of war? I think not. Should Zacarias Moussaoui be called a prisoner of war? Again, I think not.




Who knew he wasn't a pussy.


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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10296258 - 05/06/09 10:50 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Eric Holder: And what might your future plans be Mr. Terrorist?

Mr Terrorist: I'm going to Disneyland! WOOT!


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10296578 - 05/06/09 11:53 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

None of that says Holder supports torture.


--------------------
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #10296730 - 05/06/09 12:24 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

No.  Nor does anything in the Bybee memo.


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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10299488 - 05/06/09 09:04 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

TGRR said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Keep beating that meat.





We don't have to.  Eric Holder is gonna do it for us.



No he isn't.





Keep on believing that, sunshine.  We've gone from "no prosecutions period" to "we're looking into it" to "we're not sure".

With any luck, Cheney will be having his heart treated in Fort Leavenworth's infirmary.


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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: TGRR]
    #10301605 - 05/07/09 09:53 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

You're delusional.  At this point, the daft fucks have scaled back their hopes to a state disbarment.  I doubt that will have any traction either.


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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10304938 - 05/07/09 09:07 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
You're delusional.  At this point, the daft fucks have scaled back their hopes to a state disbarment.  I doubt that will have any traction either.





We'll see.  You're probably right, but I can HOPE for Dick Cheney trying to keep his heart medication from being stolen by other inmates.

A man can dream.


--------------------
What can we do to help you stop screaming?

Official Mr Shoebat lackey.

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