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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Phred]
    #10284582 - 05/04/09 03:54 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
The thing is, waterboarding is painless and causes no anguish.



So then what is the point?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Redstorm]
    #10284855 - 05/04/09 04:34 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Again, I will refer you to the definition of anguish. To argue that waterboarding does not lead to distress or anxiety is absurd.




Some distress, sure. Some anxiety, sure. But the definition of "anguish" is "severe mental pain or suffering". Note the essential qualifier here - severe.

Here again we see the casual inflation by those with an agenda of the meaning of commonly understood words to cover something they were never meant to represent. That's exactly why there are different words for the three different mental states "anguish" and "distress" and "anxiety". If I miss an appointment with my dentist and have to reschedule, I'm distressed. I sure as hell am not suffering anguish, though. When I've just bet my stack all-in on a dubious hand in Texas Hold 'em, I'm for sure undergoing anxiety while I'm waiting for the turn card and the river card, but I am certainly not "anguished".

The fact of the matter is that those being waterboarded know they are in no danger of dying. So what is there to feel "anguished" about?

Quote:

I suggest you choose a new approach.




I suggest you be intellectually honest.




Phred


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Poid]
    #10284869 - 05/04/09 04:36 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

So then what is the point?




The point is that the sensation is unpleasant enough that the person undergoing it wants it to stop. As you are well aware, there are many experiences which are unpleasant without being painful.




Phred


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Phred]
    #10284899 - 05/04/09 04:41 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Not all torture is physically painful.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Phred]
    #10285074 - 05/04/09 05:08 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Intellectually dishonest? Stop being a prick for about all of two seconds, ok? I pulled that definition directly from a dictionary source.

"extreme pain, distress, or anxiety"

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anguish
-Merriam Webster: an expert on definitions the last time I checked.

Also, did you really just compare missing a Dr's appt, losing a hand of poker, and getting waterboarded?

I think you need to get a fucking grip on reality, because you are apparently hanging by a thin thread.

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Redstorm]
    #10285085 - 05/04/09 05:09 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

That's exactly why there are different words for the three different mental states "anguish" and "distress" and "anxiety".


'

You may have also missed this memo, but usually words are defined by using other words. Strange, huh?

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Redstorm]
    #10285086 - 05/04/09 05:09 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
did you really just compare missing a Dr's appt, losing a hand of poker, and getting waterboarded?

I think you need to get a fucking grip on reality, because you are apparently hanging by a thin thread.



:thumbup:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #10285545 - 05/04/09 06:32 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I am continually amazed at how people try to define something fuzzy as concrete.  Waterboarding falls into a gray area.  It may or may not be torture.  To argue that it is torture is absurd.  To argue that it is not torture is absurd.  Because of this gray area, it will be impossible to convict anybody in the Bush administration that used/approved waterboarding of torture... we can't even decide among ourselves if what was done was torture.  Again, it is silly to debate something that cannot be cleanly defined.

The real question- was the Bush administration justified lowering America's image/values by venturing into the controversial gray area of waterboarding?  For me, this is a hard question to answer.  On one side, if lives were saved, then yes.  On the other side, if it means lives are lost in the future, as others use America as an example to justify real torture, then perhaps not.


--------------------
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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Seuss]
    #10285600 - 05/04/09 06:42 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

To me it seems like waterboarding is just a form of bullying. :shrug:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Poid]
    #10286213 - 05/04/09 08:06 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

> To me it seems like waterboarding is just a form of bullying. :shrug:

If it were being used just for punishment, then I would probably side on calling it torture.  However, besides a form of punishment, it is very effective at getting somebody to talk (without thinking about what they are saying; thus what they say is unlikely to be misleading).  As an interrogation tool, when compared to drilling holes in kneecaps, calling it torture is very debatable (hence the problems we are having trying to debate the subject).  Regardless, it doesn't really matter what either one of us think, at least from a legal standpoint.  From a public relations standpoint, our views are a bit more important... see the last paragraph of my previous post for my reasoning.


--------------------
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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Seuss]
    #10286232 - 05/04/09 08:08 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Yeah, from a legal standpoint, our opinions mean shit.


Waterboarding seems kind of degrading, though, don't you think? :shrug:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Seuss]
    #10287120 - 05/04/09 09:53 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> To me it seems like waterboarding is just a form of bullying. :shrug:

If it were being used just for punishment, then I would probably side on calling it torture.  However, besides a form of punishment, it is very effective at getting somebody to talk (without thinking about what they are saying; thus what they say is unlikely to be misleading).  As an interrogation tool, when compared to drilling holes in kneecaps, calling it torture is very debatable (hence the problems we are having trying to debate the subject).  Regardless, it doesn't really matter what either one of us think, at least from a legal standpoint.  From a public relations standpoint, our views are a bit more important... see the last paragraph of my previous post for my reasoning.




Interrogating for what?  Most of these people have been detained for years.

What kind of information could they possibly have that would still be of any use?

No, this is nothing more than sadism.


--------------------
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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Phred]
    #10287637 - 05/04/09 11:26 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
The word "torture" existed long before there was such a thing as the Geneva Convention. I am personally quite content to go with the definition you provided earlier - actions designed to deliberately cause extreme pain and/or anguish. The thing is, waterboarding is painless and causes no anguish.
...
The fact of the matter is that those being waterboarded know they are in no danger of dying. So what is there to feel "anguished" about?





So you pulled the definition of "torture" out of your ass and wrote your own definition of "Anguish" to suit your argument. For your information, according to dictionary.com, anguish means:
Quote:

–noun
1. excruciating or acute distress, suffering, or pain: the anguish of grief.
–verb (used with object)
2. to inflict with distress, suffering, or pain.
–verb (used without object)
3. to suffer, feel, or exhibit anguish: to anguish over the loss of a loved one.




Now obviously as intended in the Geneva Conventions it does actually mean serious anguish, not mild anguish. I am not denying that, because waterboarding is obviously serious anguish. Here's something for you to think about. I read in the "about me and you" post that you had cluster headaches. You knew your headaches would end and that they wouldn't be fatal (at least as much as a waterboarding subject) however I doubt you would not admit that that was severe anguish correct? So what does it mater that it is non-fatal?

I'm glad that most of the world is more sane than the people here advocating a descent into fascism and barbarism.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: TGRR]
    #10288629 - 05/05/09 05:07 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

> Interrogating for what?  Most of these people have been detained for years.  What kind of information could they possibly have that would still be of any use?

None.  I assumed that waterboarding was done towards the start of their detainment and ceased after any relevant information was extracted.  A few weeks to a few months at most.  Is my assumption incorrect?  Were they continually waterboarded for years and years?  If so, my opinion on the mater may change somewhat.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Redstorm]
    #10288882 - 05/05/09 07:42 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

I pulled that definition directly from a dictionary source.

"extreme pain, distress, or anxiety"




Perhaps you thought you were pulling that definition from a dictionary, but you didn't use that definition in your post. And I said I agreed with the dictionary definition. But I also pointed out the essential qualifier in the definition - extreme. Your "argument" in post #10285074 ignored that essential qualifier. Here is your statement, to save you the effort of scrolling back to review it -

Quote:

To argue that waterboarding does not lead to distress or anxiety is absurd.




You cannot properly say that everyone suffering anxiety or distress is experiencing anguish - only someone who is undergoing extreme anxiety or extreme distress. Hence my remark about intellectual honesty. Trivializing the word "anguish" by reducing it to mere anxiety or mere distress is as bad as trivializing the word "torture" by applying it to everything someone finds unpleasant.





Phred


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: ScavengerType]
    #10288921 - 05/05/09 07:53 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

You knew your headaches would end and that they wouldn't be fatal (at least as much as a waterboarding subject) however I doubt you would not admit that that was severe anguish correct?




There is so much wrong with your assumptions that it's hard to address them all, but let me address at least a few -

- Who says the Geneva Accords are the last word on torture? People knew for millennia before there ever was such a thing as the Geneva Accords what constituted torture and what didn't. It's not as if the word "torture" was undefined until the Geneva Accords were written.

- when I suffer a cluster headache, I am not mentally anguished. The agony is physical agony, not mental agony.

The whole point of inserting "mental anguish" into the Accords was to prohibit mock executions. If you are going to trivialize the concept of torture to everything which scares someone and everything that makes someone uncomfortable, then there is quite literally nowhere to stop. For example, I suffer considerably more mental "anguish" when forced to listen to crappy music than I do when in the grip of a cluster headache. Does that mean I'm being "tortured" when some idiot parks his car on the street outside my window and cranks his Reggaeton up to eleven?

Quote:

I'm glad that most of the world is more sane than the people here advocating a descent into fascism and barbarism.




Waterboarding those three quite obviously guilty high-value targets caused them no pain, no long-lasting distress or anxiety, and provided information essential to preventing other barbaric attacks on civilians.




Phred


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Phred]
    #10288938 - 05/05/09 08:00 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

If you don't think that being repeatedly exposed to simulated drowning and having water being forced down your throat while be restrained would not lead to EXTREME anxiety or distress, I can't really say that this discussion can even continue. We're apparently on different worlds here.

If it is on the same level as missing a dr's appt or losing a hand of poker, why do we use it? You would think it wouldn't be effective if it was.

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Redstorm]
    #10288961 - 05/05/09 08:06 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

> If you don't think that being repeatedly exposed to simulated drowning and having water being forced down your throat while be restrained

What does that have to do with waterboarding, as practiced by US interrogators?


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Redstorm]
    #10289012 - 05/05/09 08:16 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

If you don't think that being repeatedly exposed to simulated drowning and having water being forced down your throat ...




You misrepresent what is happening. No water even enters the throat, much less is forced down the throat. You will remember that past discussions in this forum have included detailed descriptions of the process, and in some cases it isn't even a cloth that is wetted, but a piece of cellophane that water is poured over. Last time I checked, water doesn't penetrate cellophane.

Quote:

If it is on the same level as missing a dr's appt or losing a hand of poker, why do we use it?




You deliberately set up a straw man here. I never implied waterboarding was on the same level as those things, I merely pointed out that if you were going to define "anguish" as just distress or anxiety - omitting the essential qualifier "extreme" - then those things met the definition of "anguishing" occurrences.

Quote:

If it is on the same level as missing a dr's appt or losing a hand of poker, why do we use it?




The fact of the matter is that many things which don't meet the definition of torture are nonetheless unpleasant enough that people will cough up information to get you to stop doing those things. That's the whole argument of many opponents of waterboarding - that it is possible to get the same information with less harsh methods, such as playing loud music, the "attention grab", the belly slap, shouting, putting a caterpillar in the cell, etc.





Phred


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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Phred]
    #10289053 - 05/05/09 08:31 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

How is waterboarding not a mock execution? The detainee may know that it will not kill him but he also may not, and may go into it every time thinking this may be the last time.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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