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Falcon91Wolvrn03
Stranger
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Loc: California, US
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: deadmeat986]
#10246631 - 04/27/09 11:14 PM (14 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
deadmeat986 said: The water boarding we do is not pour into your lungs or sallowed.
According to a recently declassified investigation memo:
"Either in the normal application, or where countermeasures are used, we understand that water may enter — and may accumulate in — the detainee’s mouth and nasal cavity, preventing him from breathing. In addition, you have indicated that the detainee as a countermeasure may swallow water, possibly in significant quantities."
"...the detainee might aspirate some of the water, and the resulting water in the lungs might cause pneumonia."
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (04/27/09 11:27 PM)
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CoolMojo
Imagination iswhat you make ofit
Registered: 10/26/01
Posts: 334
Last seen: 4 years, 10 months
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#10246750 - 04/27/09 11:34 PM (14 years, 10 months ago) |
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I think you guys are looking at the poll slightly wrong. It doesn't say torture in the gallop pull it says "Harsh interrogation techniques" The way I read the pull is less about if torture is right or wrong and more a belief that the actual incidents in question are thought by a slight majority of Americans to not qualify as torture.
As for the Rasmussen poll, I would expect that. Americans for some reason dislike negative accusations at politicians by politicians. Theres been several studies that show if you imply your opponent is not telling the whole truth or is mistaken people read that as he's a liar, but if you call your opponent a liar, they tend to think negatively toward the accuser. The point being I think this is less about the issue at hand and more about the fact that people just don't want to rehash the bush admin. They want it left far far in the past as a distant memories of that bad time way back when and not think about it.
In otherwords what they want is what Obama said to start with, lets just forget the past and move on. That didn't happen, so American is groaning about hearing Bush Bush Bush Bush every time they turn on their TV's. Its like a 8 year prison sentence just got extended on us and we didn't even get a chance to commit a crime lol.
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Annapurna1
liberal pussy
Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
Loc: innsmouth..MA
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: CoolMojo]
#10246909 - 04/28/09 12:01 AM (14 years, 10 months ago) |
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^but the WAPO polls..which did call it "torture"..still showed a 10 point surge in support for torture over the past 3 months...how do you account for that?...
-------------------- "anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...
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Phred
Fred's son
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Smackshadow]
#10247829 - 04/28/09 06:32 AM (14 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
First, there is a false choice there because I know of no evidence that suggests torture actually produces reliable information, and I don't see how unreliable information saves people.
Maybe torture doesn't, but waterboarding certainly does. See the comments of Obama's guy, Dennis Blair, on the release of the classified documents regarding the waterboarding of KSM, Abu Zubaydah and that other guy.
To claim there is "no evidence" is a stunningly uninformed statement to make. There is plenty of evidence. The fact that the Library Tower in Los Angeles is still standing, for one.
However, we aren't talking about waterboarding here, but torture. I find it hilarious people are asking for examples of when it would be immoral not to torture people when we all remember September 11, 2001. If by drilling a few holes in Moussaoui's molars, the US had been able to round up Mohammed Atta and the rest of his gang before they boarded those planes, is any sane person reading this thread gonna claim the people who decided to rev up the dental drill were acting immorally? Take a reality pill, Bill.
Phred
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Phred]
#10247836 - 04/28/09 06:34 AM (14 years, 10 months ago) |
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I was under the impression that the waterboarding info on the LA towers was gathered well after the plot was foiled.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Phred]
#10247854 - 04/28/09 06:43 AM (14 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
If by drilling a few holes in Moussaoui's molars, the US had been able to round up Mohammed Atta and the rest of his gang before they boarded those planes, is any sane person reading this thread gonna claim the people who decided to rev up the dental drill were acting immorally?
Front teeth work much better than molars; each breath taken disturbs the exposed nerve endings resulting in nearly unbearable pain. However, I see no reason to torture, even in the example you provide above, when non-torture interrogation techniques, such as waterboarding, are both safe and effective.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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Phred
Fred's son
Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Seuss]
#10247890 - 04/28/09 07:03 AM (14 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
However, I see no reason to torture, even in the example you provide above, when non-torture interrogation techniques, such as waterboarding, are both safe and effective.
We're not talking of efficacy here, but of morality.
Phred
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deadmeat986
Stranger
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: TGRR]
#10248480 - 04/28/09 10:17 AM (14 years, 10 months ago) |
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TGRR said:
Quote:
deadmeat986 said: IMO a rat in a bucket on your chest would work real well?
I'd like to know from the people who are against torture; how many lives is it worth not to "torture"? 1, 10, 1000, 10,000 a city?
Any number. You either have principles, or you don't.
So you would let any number of people die, just so you have a clear conscious? I'd think you have a different opinion if it was you or people you know that could die. People with "principles" are the first ones who break principles save their own ass. I think it's a fair trade, scumbag who has planned the deaths of 3000 people for one non scumbag. one scumbag for you would be wroth it.
-------------------- "Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both. For a wounded man shall say to his assalent, "If I live I will kill you, if I die you are forgiven". Such is the Rule of Honor."
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deadmeat986
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#10248516 - 04/28/09 10:26 AM (14 years, 10 months ago) |
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i was pointing out the fact what happen in ww2 was not the waterboarding as the cia does it now. We did not beat the person so water would be sallowed. waterboarding was only done no longer then 12 min session within 48 hrs of each.A pour only last seconds. not like the 25 min waterboarding in ww2.
-------------------- "Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both. For a wounded man shall say to his assalent, "If I live I will kill you, if I die you are forgiven". Such is the Rule of Honor."
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: CoolMojo]
#10249098 - 04/28/09 12:09 PM (14 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
CoolMojo said: The way I read the pull is less about if torture is right or wrong and more a belief that the actual incidents in question are thought by a slight majority of Americans to not qualify as torture.
Exactly
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#10249619 - 04/28/09 01:53 PM (14 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
deadmeat986 said: The water boarding we do is not pour into your lungs or sallowed.
According to a recently declassified investigation memo:
"Either in the normal application, or where countermeasures are used, we understand that water may enter and may accumulate in the detainee's mouth and nasal cavity, preventing him from breathing. In addition, you have indicated that the detainee as a countermeasure may swallow water, possibly in significant quantities."
"...the detainee might aspirate some of the water, and the resulting water in the lungs might cause pneumonia."
This report came from the Bush appointed Principal Deputy Assistant Attorney General for OLC, who concluded:
"Our conclusion is straightforward with respect to all but two of the techniques described herein. As discussed below, use of sleep deprivation as an enhanced technique and use of the waterboard involve more substantial questions, with the waterboard presenting the most substantial question....
...In sum, based on the information you have provided and the limitations, procedures, and safeguards that would be in place, we conclude that - although extended sleep deprivation and use of the waterboard present more substantial questions in certain respects under the statute and the use of the waterboard raises the most substantial issue - none of these specific techniques, considered individually, would violate the prohibition in section 2340-2340A....
...We emphasize that these are issues about which reasonable persons may disagree."
What a glowing conclusion by Bush's own appointee. Note that the conclusion was that the CIA's practices were lawful if applied in accordance with specified "limitations, procedures, and safeguards". However, the report shows evidence that the waterboarding done on Al Qaeda wasn't done that way. It'll be interesting to see what comes out of all this.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#10249902 - 04/28/09 02:49 PM (14 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
deadmeat986 said: The water boarding we do is not pour into your lungs or sallowed.
According to a recently declassified investigation memo:
"Either in the normal application, or where countermeasures are used, we understand that water may enter and may accumulate in the detainee's mouth and nasal cavity, preventing him from breathing. In addition, you have indicated that the detainee as a countermeasure may swallow water, possibly in significant quantities."
"...the detainee might aspirate some of the water, and the resulting water in the lungs might cause pneumonia."
Which is why the documents require that a physician and a psychologist be present. Also it said this in the very next sentence:
"To mitigate this risk, a potable saline solution is used in the procedure." It is on page 16 of the linked report.Quote:
This report came from the Bush appointed Principal Deputy Assistant Attorney General for OLC, who concluded:
"Our conclusion is straightforward with respect to all but two of the techniques described herein. As discussed below, use of sleep deprivation as an enhanced technique and use of the waterboard involve more substantial questions, with the waterboard presenting the most substantial question....
...In sum, based on the information you have provided and the limitations, procedures, and safeguards that would be in place, we conclude that - although extended sleep deprivation and use of the waterboard present more substantial questions in certain respects under the statute and the use of the waterboard raises the most substantial issue - none of these specific techniques, considered individually, would violate the prohibition in section 2340-2340A....
...We emphasize that these are issues about which reasonable persons may disagree."
What a glowing conclusion by Bush's own appointee. Note that the conclusion was that the CIA's practices were lawful if applied in accordance with specified "limitations, procedures, and safeguards". However, the report shows evidence that the waterboarding done on Al Qaeda wasn't done that way. It'll be interesting to see what comes out of all this.
It does? Where, pray tell does it say that? For some reason you find it remarkable that a tough legal question might engender different opinions. Why you think that is strange is unclear.
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: zappaisgod]
#10249972 - 04/28/09 03:03 PM (14 years, 10 months ago) |
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newsflash: the upper GI tract and nasal cavities are far from sterile. I doubt using sterile isotonic water is going to do much good, slightly better than nothing I'd imagine..
Do you dispute that these procedures you speak of weren't followed?
I don't understand exactly what falcon is claiming wasn't followed, he should be more clear.
It would be interesting if it would be known that the proffered conditions in which the treatment was determined presumptivly legal were absent. falcon, waht are you saying?
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 1 month, 9 days
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: johnm214]
#10250726 - 04/28/09 04:54 PM (14 years, 10 months ago) |
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> falcon, waht are you saying?
"Torture is bad, m'kay? Bush is bad, m'kay?"
... or something pretty close to that.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Seuss]
#10250829 - 04/28/09 05:11 PM (14 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said: Front teeth work much better than molars; each breath taken disturbs the exposed nerve endings resulting in nearly unbearable pain. However, I see no reason to torture, even in the example you provide above, when non-torture interrogation techniques, such as waterboarding, are both safe and effective.
I'm here to inform you that conventional torture techniques are also safe and effective, in fact far more effective than waterboarding
Questioning = what the police do when they want answers Interrogation = What the army does to get answers, mostly harmless, may sting a little Torture = You're only limited by your imagination
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Phred]
#10250869 - 04/28/09 05:17 PM (14 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Phred said:
Quote:
However, I see no reason to torture, even in the example you provide above, when non-torture interrogation techniques, such as waterboarding, are both safe and effective.
We're not talking of efficacy here, but of morality.
Phred
How are the two sepperate?
I think the majority of people's reasoned opinions would hold that torture is not inherently immoral and so it would depend on the application.
If torture is being done in furtherance of a defense of someone's rights and has a reasonable chance of doing so where less sever means are not available, then it may be moral to do so if the rights seeking to be defended are proportional to the severity of the acts commited.
If, on the other hand, torture is being done as punishment and does not reasonably serve to defend someone's rights then I think it would be immoral.
Regardless, I don't see how we are talking about morality per se. We're talking about whether we want certain techniques used or whether the american people do.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: zappaisgod]
#10252052 - 04/28/09 08:27 PM (14 years, 10 months ago) |
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zappaisgod said: Which is why the documents require that a physician and a psychologist be present. Also it said this in the very next sentence:
"To mitigate this risk, a potable saline solution is used in the procedure." It is on page 16 of the linked report.
No argument here. I was just responding to deadmeat's claim that people didn't injest water, which is why I quoted him in my response. Strange that neither you, johnm, nor suess caught this.
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TGRR
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
#10252078 - 04/28/09 08:29 PM (14 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said: when non-torture interrogation techniques, such as waterboarding, are both safe and effective.
Waterboarding is torture, no matter how often you deny it.
-------------------- What can we do to help you stop screaming? Official Mr Shoebat lackey.
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TGRR
Horrible Bastard
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: deadmeat986]
#10252084 - 04/28/09 08:30 PM (14 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
deadmeat986 said:
So you would let any number of people die, just so you have a clear conscious?
Just so I didn't live in a nation of barbarian scum.
-------------------- What can we do to help you stop screaming? Official Mr Shoebat lackey.
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TGRR
Horrible Bastard
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: deadmeat986]
#10252100 - 04/28/09 08:32 PM (14 years, 10 months ago) |
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deadmeat986 said: You even know the officers name? Yukio Asano 15 year hard labor. The water boarding we do is not pour into your lungs or sallowed. we do not beat you when water boarding so ether happen.
58The charge and specifications against Asano were:
Charge: That between 1 April, 1943 and 31 August, 1944, , at Fukoka Prisoner of War Branch Camp Number 3, Kyushu, Japan, the accused Yukio Asana, then a civilian serving as an interpreter with the Armed Forces of Japan, a nation then at war with the United States of America and its Allies, did violate the Laws and Customs of War.
Specification 1: That in or about July or August, 1943, the accused Yukio Asano, did willfully and unlawfully, brutally mistreat and torture Morris O. Killough, an American Prisoner of War, by beating and kicking him; by fastening him on a stretcher and pouring water up his nostrils.
Specification 2: That on or about 15 May, 1944, at Fukoka Prisoner of War Branch Camp Number 3, Kyushu, Japan, the accused Yukio Asano, did, willfully and unlawfully, brutally mistreat and torture Thomas B. Armitage, William O Cash and Munroe Dave Woodall, American Prisoners of War by beating and kicking them, by forcing water into their mouths and noses; and by pressing lighted cigarettes against their bodies.
Specification 5. That between 1 April, 1943 and 31 December, 1943, the accused Yukio Asano, did, willfully and unlawfully, brutally mistreat and torture John Henry Burton, an American Prisoner of War, by beating him; and by fastening him head downward on a stretcher and forcing water into his nose...
... [We] were strapped to stretchers and warm water poured down our nostrils until we were about ready to pass out65
[They] strapped him to a stretcher and elevated his feet and then poured on his face so that it was almost impossible for him to get his breath.66
[The victim] was then taken into the corridor, strapped to a stretcher, which was tilted so that his head was toward the floor and feet resting on a nearby sink. Water was then poured down his nose and mouth for about twenty minutes...67
...None of the specifications were on water torture per se, but specifications 2 and 9 refer to forcing prisoners into a tank of water, 2 is 5 unknown pows, 9 is throwing American POW James E Martin into a tank of water. The testimony discussed infra ties those specifications into water torture...
...After taking me down into the hallway, they laid me out on a stretcher and strapped me on. The stretcher was then stood on end with my head almost touching the floor and my feet in the air. By this time, practically the entire Japanese personnel of the camp were present. I saw the Japanese Major who was the Commanding Officer and also the 1st Lt. Who was his assistant. This 1st Lt. Told me while I was strapped to the stretcher that he didn�t think I did it, but it was his duty to punish me anyway.
They then began pouring water over my face and at times it was almost impossible for me to breath without sucking in water. This torture continued for what must have been a half hour or an hour. Finally I was placed in a horizontal position and unstrapped. It was imopossible for me to arise so one of the prisoners...helped me.
Affidavit of John Henry Burton, Los Angeles, CA, 26 April, 1946, (civilian captured on Wake Island).
Why do you keep avoiding the Neilsen case?
-------------------- What can we do to help you stop screaming? Official Mr Shoebat lackey.
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