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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: TGRR]
    #10244541 - 04/27/09 06:11 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

wouldn't faking to capitulate to his demands and then killing him be easier and more moral?


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"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: TGRR]
    #10244654 - 04/27/09 06:29 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

> Back to the Jack Bauer argument.

I made no claim otherwise.  However, the original premise which I was arguing against is that there is never a circumstance where it would be immoral to not torture someone.  I've provided a counter example, be it far fetched.  Part of the problem with words like "never" is that they remove all possibilities; something that is rarely true.  Of course, torture really isn't needed.  Waterboarding works extremely well and we don't have to worry about accidentally beating somebody to death before they talk.


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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Seuss]
    #10244703 - 04/27/09 06:37 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Well even if you didn't torture someone like that it wouldn't be immoral not to do so. There are different ways that could be more successful to get the information and prevent disaster but for some reason you would say it is immoral not to torture someone like that... wtf? It's not moral and it don't always work, the suggested solution I proposed would be far more effective, therefore utilizing torture instead would in fact be immoral.


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"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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OfflineDeekay
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Seuss]
    #10244709 - 04/27/09 06:39 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

coming out of left field with a deontological perspective, i do not support any type of torture.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: ScavengerType]
    #10244834 - 04/27/09 06:57 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

> but for some reason you would say it is immoral not to torture someone like that... wtf?

I'm trying to get people to question what torture really is... we are so quick to toss the word around, but slow to define it... and rightly so, as torture is a moving goalpost depending upon the circumstances and the individual.  Not everything is black and white, right and wrong.  To say, "I would never support any type of torture" is ignorant.  Leaving bums out in the streets during the middle of winter is torture, but I don't see anybody offering to bring them home for a warm meal and nice warm bed to sleep in until summer.  Or are we talking about branding with a hot iron, pulling out fingernails, Roman style torture?  Do you not see the problem with making such a blanket statement regarding "torture" whatever that might be?


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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Seuss]
    #10244906 - 04/27/09 07:08 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I was under the impression that we were talking about US style torture like at minimum the techniques used at Gitmo to the maximum of the techniques used ad places like Abu Grhab. But if you want to blur the argument by saying that in your hypothetical scenario, they plan to evict the evil mad scientist in question and give bad references to anyone he calls to rent from so that he has to sleep out in the cold and that is torture, go right ahead. If torture is ineffective and it is used instead of other possibly more effective methods then that in and of itself is immoral no mater how torture is defined. Then there's the morality of what torture actually entails.


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"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: TGRR]
    #10245199 - 04/27/09 07:49 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

TGRR said:
Quote:

Smackshadow said:
Ya, I think the polls are pretty worthless.  Without defining torture as a specific act (water boarding, nude triangle, exc.) in specific circumstances (getting admissions to a connection between 9/11 and Iraq)I don't think that anyone would have enough framework or context to answer a that question. 

I would also agree that t.v. shows such as 24 seem to promote ignoring civil rights, but I don't know how much T.V. effects personal behavior.




If people can't see that torture is wrong in principle, then they are not worth defending.



Quote:

TGRR said:
Quote:

Smackshadow said:
Ya, I think the polls are pretty worthless.  Without defining torture as a specific act (water boarding, nude triangle, exc.) in specific circumstances (getting admissions to a connection between 9/11 and Iraq)I don't think that anyone would have enough framework or context to answer a that question. 

I would also agree that t.v. shows such as 24 seem to promote ignoring civil rights, but I don't know how much T.V. effects personal behavior.




If people can't see that torture is wrong in principle, then they are not worth defending.




Huh?


How do you know they don't think torture is wrong?  You are using a word in a particular way.  The news uses it in different ways as does the administration and the geneva convention.

The whole point, like I explained earlier, is that you are presuming their subjective definition is the same as yours and judging people on that basis when its unlikely to be the case for signifigant majorities of the respondents.


I don't think many people support torture.  I also don't think waterboarding is torture per se.  I think people are presuming "torture" (when used in this context in realtion to our government) means waterboarding.


I'm guessing you'd get a very different answer if the question was  instead about taking a drill to someone or putting someone on the rack.



Maybe you think the right answer is torture is wrong, but I doubt very many people understand the distinction between the legal definitions and the common definitions and I bet many of them are conflating them when they hear these issues discussed.

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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: johnm214]
    #10245502 - 04/27/09 08:34 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

to be honest I think that the use of stress positions and the psy techniques like sleep/sensory deprivation are probibly worse cumulatively than waterboarding. People just think waterboarding is worse because it looks more brutal. I'm speaking from my interest in psychology and learnings about those techniques as well as psych experiments relating to them.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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OfflineTGRR
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Seuss]
    #10245530 - 04/27/09 08:39 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> Back to the Jack Bauer argument.

I made no claim otherwise.  However, the original premise which I was arguing against is that there is never a circumstance where it would be immoral to not torture someone.  I've provided a counter example, be it far fetched.  Part of the problem with words like "never" is that they remove all possibilities; something that is rarely true.  Of course, torture really isn't needed.  Waterboarding works extremely well and we don't have to worry about accidentally beating somebody to death before they talk.





How come waterboarding was torture in WWII, but isn't now?


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OfflineTGRR
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Seuss]
    #10245562 - 04/27/09 08:45 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> but for some reason you would say it is immoral not to torture someone like that... wtf?

I'm trying to get people to question what torture really is... we are so quick to toss the word around, but slow to define it... and rightly so, as torture is a moving goalpost depending upon the circumstances and the individual.  Not everything is black and white, right and wrong.  To say, "I would never support any type of torture" is ignorant.  Leaving bums out in the streets during the middle of winter is torture, but I don't see anybody offering to bring them home for a warm meal and nice warm bed to sleep in until summer.  Or are we talking about branding with a hot iron, pulling out fingernails, Roman style torture?  Do you not see the problem with making such a blanket statement regarding "torture" whatever that might be?




Dictionary definition:
Quote:


1.      the act of inflicting excruciating pain, as punishment or revenge, as a means of getting a confession or information, or for sheer cruelty.
2. a method of inflicting such pain.
3. Often, tortures. the pain or suffering caused or undergone.
4. extreme anguish of body or mind; agony.
5. a cause of severe pain or anguish.
–verb (used with object)
6. to subject to torture.
7. to afflict with severe pain of body or mind: My back is torturing me.
8. to force or extort by torture: We'll torture the truth from his lips!
9. to twist, force, or bring into some unnatural position or form: trees tortured by storms.
10. to distort or pervert (language, meaning, etc.).




Legal definition:

1.  Apparently, everything those ghouls Gonzales and Yoo argued for:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A37687-2004Dec30.html

2.  Civilized nations use this:

http://www.icrc.org/web/eng/siteeng0.nsf/html/69MJXC

Of course, we can't expect America to live up to civilized standards.  It's inexpedient.


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Offlinedeadmeat986
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: ScavengerType]
    #10245763 - 04/27/09 09:13 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

IMO a rat in a bucket on your chest would work real well?

I'd like to know from the people who are against torture; how many lives is it worth not to "torture"? 1, 10, 1000, 10,000 a city?


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"Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both. For a wounded man shall say to his assalent, "If I live I will kill you, if I die you are forgiven". Such is the Rule of Honor."

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OfflineTGRR
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: deadmeat986]
    #10245782 - 04/27/09 09:16 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

deadmeat986 said:
IMO a rat in a bucket on your chest would work real well?

I'd like to know from the people who are against torture; how many lives is it worth not to "torture"? 1, 10, 1000, 10,000 a city?




Any number.  You either have principles, or you don't.


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Offlinedeadmeat986
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: TGRR]
    #10245814 - 04/27/09 09:22 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

<<How come waterboarding was torture in WWII, but isn't now?>>

Umm never was. the practice was not waterboarding but another practice involving forcing water into a POW's stomach. Not at all the samething.


--------------------

"Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both. For a wounded man shall say to his assalent, "If I live I will kill you, if I die you are forgiven". Such is the Rule of Honor."

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OfflineSmackshadow
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: deadmeat986]
    #10245881 - 04/27/09 09:33 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

First, there is a false choice there because I know of no evidence that suggests torture actually produces reliable information, and I don't see how unreliable information saves people.

More over, I also don't see how a person who has been locked up for a year has any relevant information at all, and even if the ticking time bomb scenario exists, at what point are we willing to ignore not only our ideas, but fundamental principals of our entire government.


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The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all.
     
~H. L. Mencken~

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OfflineTGRR
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: deadmeat986]
    #10245896 - 04/27/09 09:34 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

deadmeat986 said:
<<How come waterboarding was torture in WWII, but isn't now?>>

Umm never was. the practice was not waterboarding but another practice involving forcing water into a POW's stomach. Not at all the samething.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding#World_War_II

Quote:

Chase J. Nielsen, one of the U.S. airmen who flew in the Doolittle raid following the attack on Pearl Harbor, was subjected to waterboarding by his Japanese captors.[69] At their trial for war crimes following the war, he testified "Well, I was put on my back on the floor with my arms and legs stretched out, one guard holding each limb. The towel was wrapped around my face and put across my face and water poured on. They poured water on this towel until I was almost unconscious from strangulation, then they would let up until I'd get my breath, then they'd start over again… I felt more or less like I was drowning, just gasping between life and death."[29]




I can find a better source for Nielsen's quote, if you like.


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OfflineTGRR
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: Smackshadow]
    #10245904 - 04/27/09 09:35 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Smackshadow said:
First, there is a false choice there because I know of no evidence that suggests torture actually produces reliable information, and I don't see how unreliable information saves people.

More over, I also don't see how a person who has been locked up for a year has any relevant information at all, and even if the ticking time bomb scenario exists, at what point are we willing to ignore not only our ideas, but fundamental principals of our entire government.




Also, any population willing to condone torture isn't worth saving.


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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: deadmeat986]
    #10246006 - 04/27/09 09:45 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

deadmeat986 said:
<<How come waterboarding was torture in WWII, but isn't now?>>

Umm never was. the practice was not waterboarding but another practice involving forcing water into a POW's stomach. Not at all the samething.




they practiced both.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Offlinedeadmeat986
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: TGRR]
    #10246010 - 04/27/09 09:46 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

World War II
During World War II both Japanese troops, especially the Kempeitai, and the officers of the Gestapo,[64] the German secret police, used waterboarding as a method of torture.[65] During the Japanese occupation of Singapore the Double Tenth Incident occurred. This included waterboarding, by the method of binding or holding down the victim on his back, placing a cloth over his mouth and nose, and pouring water onto the cloth. In this version, interrogation continued during the torture, with the interrogators beating the victim if he did not reply and the victim swallowing water if he opened his mouth to answer or breathe. When the victim could ingest no more water, the interrogators would beat or jump on his distended stomach.[66][67][68]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding#World_War_II

Sorry nice of you to leave that paragraph out. so you could prove your point of view. the form of water boarding is at the line of torture but we do not force them to swallow the water. unlike the Japanese did.


--------------------

"Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both. For a wounded man shall say to his assalent, "If I live I will kill you, if I die you are forgiven". Such is the Rule of Honor."

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OfflineTGRR
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: deadmeat986]
    #10246022 - 04/27/09 09:47 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

deadmeat986 said:
World War II
During World War II both Japanese troops, especially the Kempeitai, and the officers of the Gestapo,[64] the German secret police, used waterboarding as a method of torture.[65] During the Japanese occupation of Singapore the Double Tenth Incident occurred. This included waterboarding, by the method of binding or holding down the victim on his back, placing a cloth over his mouth and nose, and pouring water onto the cloth. In this version, interrogation continued during the torture, with the interrogators beating the victim if he did not reply and the victim swallowing water if he opened his mouth to answer or breathe. When the victim could ingest no more water, the interrogators would beat or jump on his distended stomach.[66][67][68]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding#World_War_II

Sorry nice of you to leave that paragraph out. so you could prove your point of view. the form of water boarding is at the line of torture but we do not force them to swallow the water. unlike the Japanese did.





That's a different case.  I was referring specifically to the case involving Neilsen, which is a textbook description of current waterboarding techniques.

Please make an effort to be more honest about these things, m'kay?


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Offlinedeadmeat986
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Re: Americans side with Cheney and embrace torture... [Re: TGRR]
    #10246217 - 04/27/09 10:12 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

You even know the officers name? Yukio Asano 15 year hard labor. The water boarding we do is not pour into your lungs or sallowed. we do not beat you when water boarding so ether happen.


58The charge and specifications against Asano were:

Charge: That between 1 April, 1943 and 31 August, 1944, , at Fukoka Prisoner of War Branch Camp Number 3, Kyushu, Japan, the accused Yukio Asana, then a civilian serving as an interpreter with the Armed Forces of Japan, a nation then at war with the United States of America and its Allies, did violate the Laws and Customs of War.

Specification 1: That in or about July or August, 1943, the accused Yukio Asano, did willfully and unlawfully, brutally mistreat and torture Morris O. Killough, an American Prisoner of War, by beating and kicking him; by fastening him on a stretcher and pouring water up his nostrils.

Specification 2: That on or about 15 May, 1944, at Fukoka Prisoner of War Branch Camp
Number 3, Kyushu, Japan, the accused Yukio Asano, did, willfully and unlawfully, brutally mistreat and torture Thomas B. Armitage, William O Cash and Munroe Dave Woodall, American Prisoners of War by beating and kicking them, by forcing water into their mouths and noses; and by pressing lighted cigarettes against their bodies.

Specification 5. That between 1 April, 1943 and 31 December, 1943, the accused Yukio Asano, did, willfully and unlawfully, brutally mistreat and torture John Henry Burton, an American Prisoner of War, by beating him; and by fastening him head downward on a stretcher and forcing water into his nose...

... [We] were strapped to stretchers and warm water poured down our nostrils until we were about ready to pass out65

[They] strapped him to a stretcher and elevated his feet and then poured on his face so that it was almost impossible for him to get his breath.66

[The victim] was then taken into the corridor, strapped to a stretcher, which was tilted so that his head was toward the floor and feet resting on a nearby sink. Water was then poured down his nose and mouth for about twenty minutes...67


...None of the specifications were on water torture per se, but specifications 2 and 9 refer to forcing prisoners into a tank of water, 2 is 5 unknown pows, 9 is throwing American POW James E Martin into a tank of water. The testimony discussed infra ties those specifications into water torture...

...After taking me down into the hallway, they laid me out on a stretcher and strapped me on. The stretcher was then stood on end with my head almost touching the floor and my feet in the air. By this time, practically the entire Japanese personnel of the camp were present. I saw the Japanese Major who was the Commanding Officer and also the 1st Lt. Who was his assistant. This 1st Lt. Told me while I was strapped to the stretcher that he didn’t think I did it, but it was his duty to punish me anyway.

They then began pouring water over my face and at times it was almost impossible for me to breath without sucking in water. This torture continued for what must have been a half hour or an hour. Finally I was placed in a horizontal position and unstrapped. It was imopossible for me to arise so one of the prisoners...helped me.

Affidavit of John Henry Burton, Los Angeles, CA, 26 April, 1946, (civilian captured on Wake Island).


--------------------

"Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both. For a wounded man shall say to his assalent, "If I live I will kill you, if I die you are forgiven". Such is the Rule of Honor."

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